Slashdot Mirror
Cell Phones and Air Safety
Cutie Pi writes "On the heels of this recent Slashdot story discussing Wi-Fi use on airplanes, the BBC is reporting about new evidence indicating that cell phones can interfere with airplanes' navigation systems. From the article: "In tests, compasses froze or overshot, navigation bearings were inaccurate and there was interference on radio channels." Look like like Wi-Fi and airplanes just don't mix."
Wifi uses far less power then cellphones do.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
Aren't cellphones already banned on commerical airliners?
Cell Phones don't mix with anything.
Cell + Driving = Death
Cell + Extended Use = Brain Tumor -> Death
Although they've done wonder for the Tiny-Blue-LED Industry.
Vonal Declosion
I sure hope they are using more than a compass to navigate a commercial plane.
For commercial and medical products we have to design based on certain electromagnetic immunity requirements. What's the deal with the equipment on airplanes? I realize that wireless lans probably produce a fair amount of radiation that has to be handled but that's no excuse. I would think EVERY piece of electronics in an airplane would be designed to handle far worse. Why is that stuff so fragile?
Planes are bathed in cell phone radiation just sitting at the gate and certainly during take-offs and landings in busy metro areas. People in the airports and surrounding areas certainly don't curb their use of cell phones. It doesn't make sense to suggest there's a serious danger to airplane navigation. Would we not have seen them before.
I can't do my nails on an airplane, but they let me take all the cell phones and WiFi equipment on that I want. In fact, they make sure that they work before you can take them on.
As long as they're not pointy.
the oddest part of the BBC story is this bit: And in October, Russian businessman Sergey Lebedev was fined £2,500 after forcing a British Airways jet to abort a landing at Manchester Airport. Cabin crew spent so long arguing with him about whether he would turn off his mobile they were unable to prepare the plane So what was his actual, offence: surliness? this is a very bad report....i prefere the kind of reporting you get in Wireless Business & Technology magazine.
The article does NOT mention the age of these airplanes.... which does make a big difference since Boeing and Airbus have started shielding their equipment better in their recent airplanes
According to the register,
British Airway is set to introduce on-board broadband services next month. and Connexion By Boeing has received to go ahead from the US Federal Aviation Administration to use WiFi networks with satellite links aboard planes, after satisfying the authority that the technology is safe.
Anyway, your cell phone won't work on a plane, it goes to fast to do hand-offs between cells properly.
SCO employee? Check out the bounty
because I think it's ridiculous that it could really be harmful. I guess I was wrong?
Do you leave it on in your pocket when you fill up with "gas" (petrol) too because it's ridiculous that a spark could cause an explosion of fumes ? Do you smoke while filling the car up too ?
Put your phone next to your car antenna and turn the radio on, and turn the phone on - hear that "dut-dut-der-dut-dut-der-dut" pulsing ?? Notice how you get the same effect when you drive to the airport (from their radar) ? Do you figure maybe a cell-phone that can't get a signal so has upped its power output to max to try and get one, about 20 feet away from the plane's antennas is going to providea stronger pulse than the radio signal being transmitted from 5 miles away ?
I was standing on the tarmac waiting to board a flight in Pakistan, next to a 747 that was being re-fuelled (which was freaking me out anyway - the av-gas fumes were really strong), and the people behind me decided this would be a good time to light up a cigarette... (they were german, said something about being ridiculous when I told them to put their lighters away and put their "f*ckin fags out").
I spent a lot of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I just squandered. - George Best
Maybe I could solder a signal amp onto my airport card and wap to get longer range?
Better yet, I mercilessly slaughter ever 2.4ghz cordless phone for causing interference with my wifi.
You can't judge a book by the way it wears its hair.
The "dut-dut-der-dut-dut-der-dut" interference on amplifiers (and CRT screen distortion) caused by mobiles seems to only occur with GSM900 phones. I was used to it happening all the time when I lived in Australia (where use use GSM900) but I've never had it occur in the US with my GSM1900 or CDMA1900 phones.
Every time a commoner gains a new method for controlling the world, Da Man comes and stomps it out.
Demand your right to use bluetooth, 8011b, and GSM devices while the plane is taking off and landing! To do anything else is bowing down to Da Man.
Oh, and if anyone knows how I can stop paying income tax, email me. It's a terrible drain on my broadband budget.
fifth sigma, inc.
Both the airline industry and the Federal Communications Commission ban the use of cell phones aboard commercial flights. But they do it for different reasons, reasons which are contradictory and scientifically unsubstantiated, critics say. http://www.privateline.com/Cellbasics/cellphonesai rlines.html
[Fuck Beta]
o0t!
What about all the planes that are taking off from the airport in the middle of a city? Are people required to turn off their cells in the airport terminals? Are telcos not allowed to place towers near airports?
I bet those 30+ incidents reported blamed cells because they needed a scapegoat for their lack of good equipment checks.
I once heard a cell phone was blamed for starting a gas station on fire. Perhaps that would be true, except the last I checked circut boards arn't a good source of spark. Next thing you will see is women being baned from wearing makeup and good looking clothing because it is a distraction for the pilots. Give me a break
...if it's all this bad, why don't planes fall out of the sky from all the existing thousands of cell phone towers all broadcasting, and tv and radio stations and other sorts of radio wave emitting places? Why not? Is it *really* that bad, or is this FUD? Seems like if it was really that bad we would have seen mass crashes and various huge numbers of fubars by now, yes?
I am skeptical, but readily admit I don't know.
Do you leave it on in your pocket when you fill up with "gas" (petrol) too because it's ridiculous that a spark could cause an explosion of fumes ?
Ridiculous.
Do you smoke while filling the car up too ?
Not ridiculous.
SCO employee? Check out the bounty
If a cellphone can interfere with flight electronics, then it's a short step to building a cellphone-like device that deliberately does so, putting the plane and its passengers in danger. It could look like a phone, a walkman, an electric shaver - anything. Why would such an achilles heel be tolerated? Unless all this heightened security is just a sham to make people feel more secure. But that's just unthinkable, right? Guys?
"I'm sorry sir, but we're diverting to another airport."
"That so?" *beep beep boop*
The coolest voice ever.
If navigation and other electronic systems on airplanes malfunction because of consumer devices that are tens of feet away, then there is a problem with the design of airplane electronics that needs to get fixed. Otherwise, airplanes are just way too vulnerable. And transmitters can masquerade as just about any kind of electronics--if they don't get fixed, then pretty much all electronics will have to be banned for security reasons. Just more deterioration of service--"we won't fix it, we'll just make things even more uncomfortable for our customers"--and people wonder why airlines are going bankrupt.
OS Software is like love: The best way to make it grow is to give it away.
Look like like Wi-Fi and airplanes just don't mix.
/end rant
And yet you link to a story about Cell phones! Cell phones != wi-fi!
"Some fight for law. Some fight for justice. What will you fight for? One day, you will see."
Happens with my GSM1900 phone.
GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak
The problem could be fixed by redesigning all aircraft communication and navigation systems to use jam-resistant modulation techniques. Don't hold your breath waiting for that to happen. Voice communications still use AM. DME, VOR and ILS are based on ancient technology.
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
"Since 1996, pilots have reported 35 mobile phone-related safety incidents, including false warnings in the cockpit, distractions causing aircraft to stray accidentally onto runways or fly at the wrong altitude, interrupted radio communications and multiple safety systems malfunctions."
35 cases in 7 years?? How many planes fly each day??
The Adult Happy Meal - "I'm lovin' it!"
Here's a report (pdf) that discusses the interference effects of cell phones on aircraft: Interference Levels In Aircraft at Radio Frequencies used by Portable Telephones An html version is available on google.
Executive Summary
Measurements made on two types of civil transport aircraft confirm that transmissions made in the cabin from portable telephones can produce interference levels that exceed demonstrated susceptibility levels for aircraft equipment approved against earlier standards. Since aircraft equipment in this class is currently in use, and can be installed, and is known to be installed, in newly built aircraft, current policy restricting the use of portable telephones on aircraft must continue. Recommendations are made to reduce the interference risk and for further studies to understand more precisely the effects of interference to aircraft equipment arising from the use of portable telephones.
The navigation instruments in question are extremely sensitive; that precision is required when operating in the terminal area (particularly on the approach) in clouds or other visual obstruction. Operating in such conditions is done under Instrument Flight Rules (IFR). Particularly in the terminal area, IFR operations depend on precision, with less error tolerated the closer the airplane is to landing. On final approach (200' above the ground, 1/4 mile from the touchdown zone, moving at 150 knots, for a typical airliner; some approaches can be flown entirely by instrument, without ever seeing the ground, all the way to touchdown), precision is very important; a very small error could have significant consequences.
Navigating from city-to-city is usually done with the aid of instruments regardless of conditions, but doesn't require quite so much precision--consider that, in trying to find New York, you're looking for a target several hundred square miles in area. A half-mile here or there is irrelevant.
How did they hit the buildings? Well, if you saw any video at all of any of the crashes, you might have noticed the color of the sky: blue. As in, no clouds. Without clouds or other visual obstructions, operations can be carried out under Visual Flight Rules (VFR). In short, the terrorists steered the airplanes toward the targets that they could see, visually, from many miles out!
Duh.
Moderate drunk! It's more fun that way!
Cell phones can work in planes. When you zip over the country, your cell phone antenna has an enormous range due to the fact that there are basically no obstructions compared to the walls and trees present on the ground. But the service providers really hate it, because you leave old and re-enter new cells at an extremely high rate, which generates a huge amound of traffic in the respective cell towers.
Switch back to Slashdot's D1 system.
You get 50 times as much radiation from background sources like the sun, the earth (plants & minerals),etc. than from any man-made source like consumer electronics.
But don't take my word for it, read the CDC study.
I sure hope they are using more than a compass to navigate a commercial plane.
They do.
The compass is there to fall back on in case the sophisticated stuff quits working for whatever reason. And yes, a cellphone can interfere with the magnetic compass. I know, I'm a private pilot and own a small aircraft. Every bit of electrically operated gear in the cabin jacks with the compass's reading. Since I *know* how the electrical equipment that's installed and certificated as part of my aircraft affects my compass, I can deal with and compensate for that since I'm intimately familiar with all that gear.
It's all the *unknown* electrical devices that are brought on board an airliner and operated by passengers, that an airline pilot doesn't need to be made to worry about and wonder how to compensate for because if the situation has deteriorated to such a bad point that he's having to use the mag compass, you want nothing to interfere with it.
Now you might want to say,"How often does everything really go wrong and the pilot have to use the old fashioned mag compass to navigate?" Well, not very often at all in fact extremely rare, but I have to ask you, "How many times have you needed the spare tire in your car"? Well, I've driven my current vehicle over 150K miles in the past 11 years and never needed it, but that still doesn't mean I'm going to remove it or let the air out of it, or not check to see if it is in roadworthy before embarking upon a long trip, so why should the airline pilots risk the integrity of their last backup spare navigation instrument just because some selfish passengers want to play with their toys on board. Hell, the passengers should consider themselves lucky they are still allowed to fly at all and not having to make do with only ground and water transportation.
OK, so cellphones cause trouble...I've read stories in airplane magezines where cellphones affected small-plane avionics.
BUT...to say "planes and WiFi" don't mix is inappropriate, since:
(a) the article makes no montion of WiFi
(b) WiFi is lower power
(c) Wifi is in the 2400MHz range. CDMA is 1900GHz, GSM is 900/1800/1900MHz, depending on where you are.
CLearly, if Lufthansa felt that WiFi was no threat to avionics, they wouldn't be testing it on international flights OVER WATER.
Government's idea of a balanced budget: take money from the right pocket to balance...oh who am I kidding?
I'm a recreational pilot, and I've had first-hand experience with mobile phone that interfere with the avionics on a light aircraft. I've not witnessed any issues with nagivation instruments being affected, but I've certainly had interference on the communication systems (radio) from the mobile phone, when, for example, I've forgotten to turn my own mobile phone off (quickly remedied, thankfully :)
:). It's very annoying.
/scarey/ :)
:)
However, it's mostly GSM phones that are the problem. When the phone detects that it's losing contact with the cell, it makes a short burst of very high energy transmissions that, on the radio, sound like 'dt-dt-dt dt-dt-dt dt-dt-dt' (morse code for SSS?
However, I've NEVER noticed this with a CDMA (okay, technically IS-95) phones, which are a lot more common in the USA (vs England and Australia which primarily use GSM now). So, the UK's test is probably more accurate for GSM phones. However, I'm also sure it's not a black/white issue, but rather a matter of proportions.
Personally, if *I* was in charge of the safety of a passenger-carrying flight, I'd want to make damn sure there wasn't ANYTHING that could adversely affect navigation, even if the chance was remote. Flying around IFR at night is
Further studies need to be done. Operators need to weigh the costs of shielding the navigation instruments against the benefit of allowing passengers to use bluetooth/WiFi on the aircraft. And, passengers need to damn well obey flight crew instructions
During takeoff and landing, all electronic devies are banned, because they can intefere with airplanes. However, cell phones are banned from the air by the FCC, because they work too well. They don't cell phones on airplanes tying up its frequency in range of 30 base stations, which would cause interference with ground cell stations.
Have you ever heard of an airplane crashing from cell phone usage? If it was really that easy to create safety problems, I'm sure it would happen all the time. Besides, terrorists could easily bring a much more powerful brodcaster onto an airplane. The real reason cell phones are banned, is that airlines don't want competition to their really expensive phones.
Remind me never ever to board a plane with any of you selfish fuckers who are so afraid of going without using their precious toys that they'd put the safety of their fellow passengers at risk.
The world's aeronautical authorities don't do this sort of thing for fucking fun you know. This is serious business, and some of the responses coming from know-nothing fuckwits on this forum fill me (as occasional plane passenger and as a pilot) with horror.
"Information wants to be paid"
This all goes to show just how FRAGILE everything is in electronics. In programming, it's one thing to overrun a buffer by a few bytes and wonder why some totally different part of the system takes a dump, but in electronics, you can't even debug the damn thing. Airplanes have this problem times a million because of all the noise that goes circulating around in their systems. And I truly understand their concerns. I don't want to go falling down from 50,000 feet because some jackass in row 39D's WiFi driver in Windows starts sending out all kinds of strange signals. And because Windows Sucks.
Even though I think a plane crashing because of cell phones and other electronic equipment is close to null, in some cases, I wonder if it is a scam to use and pay for the airlines services. However,I do believe there can be problems. Thinking about it, one or two cell phones or whatever may not cause a problem but what about 200 at the same time. Fortunately there are experienced pilots in the air.
Just spend time in any computer help forum and you will run across people who are helped by moving their unshielded stereo speakers, cell phones, cordless phones, tvs, etc away from their computers or wireless networks.
In fact that is usually one of the first suggestions when someone is having strange monitor/video card problems.
Think about it the next time the screen flickers, get some static, strange temporary colors, or jumps or some other unusual problem that cannot be traced.
I have a friend who used to work for Motorola and another friend who is a pilot and have disscussed this many times with both of them. The pilot friend has confirmed that in reality there are no issues with cell phones, or almost any other consumer wireless technologies aboard aircrafts. It does introduce some risk when flying under instrument flight only, but cause no problems during normal cruising. With this information I was left wondering why they are banned in most commercial planes. My friend from Motorola explained that when the cell phone system was designed it was not designed to hand off calls from one tower to another tower for a phone traveling at such great speeds. In fact if you drive too fast on the road (something over 140MPH in testing) you will also have problems. Planes are flying high causing you to access multiple cells at once and you are moving to fast for the handoff to occur from one tower to another. For this reason cell phones have been restricted on commercial planes. In fact amateur radios which put out far more power than a cell phone or wifi cards are allowed to be used on planes pending the pilots permission, this confirms that it's not an issue as it is not prohibited by FCC rules. It's not reallly an interference problem, it's a policy and cell technology problem.
Why are everybody going "no damn way, you'll pry this cell phone from my cold dead hands, I need scientific evidence". What about being a bit cautious, or are you all leet electrical engineers?
I have experienced cell phones interfering heavily with electronic equipment on the ground and also in flight, so this isn't a complete fabrication.
While I was flying in a dash8, the fire alarm went off, which was pretty damn scary, I tell you. Later it turned out that a cell phone recieving a call would almost always trigger the fire alaram system in a dash8.
I really don't understand why you are so negative towards this. Do you think it's some kind of airline conspiracy, forcing you to use their expensive phones?
How small a thought it takes to fill a whole life
Me: Kat, is your phone off?
Kat: Will my phone really mess up the plane?
Me: I don't know. Do you want to find out?
[Kat turns off her phone.]
My point is that almost none of us are qualified to determine whether mobile phones cause problems for aircraft. (Raise your hand if you're a certificated avionics technician.) Unless you were on one of the September 11 flights, there is not a single phone call so important that it's worth jeopardizing the safety of the flight. All of the people who are getting indignant about not being able to use their precious phones on an aircraft should step back and get some perspective. I'm an instrument-rated pilot, and if you're in my plane when I'm shooting an ILS through a 200 foot ceiling, you damn well better turn that shit off.
irb(main):001:0>
If the navigational instruments are so sensitive, why are they not being effected by the masses of static electricity being created on the wings as air molecules brush pass and create a electromagnetic field?!? Please don't tell me that Wifi would cause a greater effect then 40m of polarised wing span... -Marcus www.digitalive.com.au