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Microsoft's Athens PC
OneLeg noted that the Seattle Times has a story on Microsoft deciding to partner up with HP and
work on new PCs with a simpler, more controlled architecture. Including things like integrated telephony into the PCs, and in general, being a bit more Maclike and locking Linux out of the desktop market.
OMG, you're kidding me. Isn't this what people usually blast Apple about? Trying to control both hardware *and* software?
"Times have not become more violent. They have just become more televised."
-Marilyn Manson
All your bus are belong to us?
I think they are two different points:-
Point 1. Being more like a Mac.
Point 2. Microsoft will not allow Linux on this machine.
Join the Free Software Foundation
Anyone want to start a pool on when a port of Linux to this will be ready?
Self Serving Sig: Hosting Comparison
The XBOX will now come with a monitor, an HP label, and Windows XP. Yay!
Oh wait, this is a bad thing... I think.
Food not Bombs is a nice platitude but it breaks down when you notice that the Bombees are usually well fed
Microsoft has made hardware standards for quite some time. They still haven't gotten in the hardware business (other than peripherals.) And why on earth is it so awful that MS is trying to make Windows better? We (the /. crowd) always bitch about how much it sucks, why don't we applaud MS when they do something to try to fix it? Setting up a standard for PC hardware that they think will integrate better with Windows is fine IMO - if it helps make "the" consumer OS better for the consumer, more power to them. I don't blindly support monopoly abuse, but I really don't think that's what's happening here. I think that MS is taking steps to make the PC better (by integrating telephony and other "cool" features). The system they've set up has some real innovation and isn't merely copying the work of others. I think we should at least see it before mindlessly bashing it (as some of the other comments have already done.)
This is yet another attempt at total desktop control, something Microsoft can't wait to have.
Micahel Robertson said it best:
Microsoft wants to move to a world where THEY decide what software a computer runs because that will allow them to extract the most money from consumers. They'll position this product with a comforting sounding name like "trustworthy" computing and tout the benefits, but it's really about shifting power over an individual's PC from the buyer to Microsoft. Microsoft will put up a permission gate before any software can be installed which will have a fee associated with it. It will ultimately give Microsoft control over a user's computer.
This is the first step in something like this becoming a reality. Control the hardware before you control the software.
Remember that story where microsoft wants to implement "classes" of pcs? Like "This game will only run on Class A or better machines"? This is a start, if only halfway.
This scares the hell out of me, and think long and hard about what the implications of such an act can cause if this becomes "mainstream".
"The Athens PC has a built-in telephone linked to Microsoft's productivity applications. When the hardware receives an incoming call, the software automatically pulls up the caller's contact information and photo if the data are stored on the system."
Awesome, and 6 months later and a few installs of various packages, your phone rings and you see this:
A system error has occurred:
ODBC-OLE error 864: Can't connect to object. Please contact your vendor
Call rejected.
You know you're a geek if you've ever replied to a tagline.
Think drivers. Think booting only those operating systems of which the bios approves (in the name of security perhaps?).
Louis Kim acknowledged the similarities [of Apple's recent hardware lineup], noting, "Apple is on a similar track in that they're designing with the end-user in mind and they're integrating hardware and software."
Apple is on a similar track??? A similar track? They built the f*cking track 10 years ago and Microsoft and the other PC vendors are on a hand-cart like laurrel and hardy trying to catch up. Similar track my arse! Apple are so far down the track it's not funny, MS will be coming up with a new online music distribution service next.
1990s MS: "We are not a monopoly."
2000s MS: "We can't compete fairly, lock out the competition."
2010s MS: "Would you like Fries with that?"
Trolling is a art,
When the hardware receives an incoming call, the software automatically pulls up the caller's contact information and photo if the data are stored on the system.
Well, time to get to work today...
No, too fat... Hm, no picture? No support... Yikes! Fugly, no help for you... Whoa, hold on a minute! Yes, Tech Support is ready to hump- er help you!
Gates also plans to demonstrate a new scroll wheel and set of buttons for navigating Windows-powered devices with one hand.
Uh-huh...
Or can it?
I'm sure no matter what MS puts in this "new" hardware, the hackers will find a way to make Linux run on it no problem. They'll probably do some crap with signing the software, like on the XBox. The big questions are, will hacking it void your warrantee, will hacking it violate the DMCA, etc. Obviously no legitimate business is going to violate the law in order to get Linux to run on an MS computing appliance.
Anyway I doubt if it's really going to be THAT different from current PC hardware. In fact the core architecture probably won't be ANY different. What we're seeing here is probably a group of bundled proprietary officially supported USB devices or something with extra special attention paid to the drivers courtesy of MS. Basicly it's just an appliance computer, which like the iOpeners aren't really any different hardware-wise from real computers.
So in that case there's not much stopping any other industry group from getting together and setting other open standards for this type of operation. Sorry MS, but using caller ID to pull up a person's picture when they call is NOT revolutionary. The important thing here is that it's an integrated appliance system. It's not a tough system to implement, and I'm sure we could see decent OSS solutions pretty quickly.
I just wonder how proprietary the hardware and software components of this system are really going to be... I guess that remains to be seen.
-73, de n1ywb
www.n1ywb.com
Point 2. Microsoft will not allow Linux on this machine.
I'd like to see them try.
I'm no coder, but there are thousands of people out there that can crack whatever MS tries to do (search for 'xbox' on Source Forge for examples...).
They can do whatever they want. I personally don't care. If there's a machine that's controled in this fashion, I won't buy it. It's really that simple.
No Sales == No Production
No Production == Bad Idea
Bad Idea == Bag It.
I'm not a prophet or a stone-age man,
I'm just a mortal with potential of a super man.
No, I'm not saying this is the end of it right here and now. But this kind of think is going to be more and more prevalent. General purpose computers, as Linux proved, can in the end be made to do anything, and are not going to be big money makers for equipment manufacturers anymore. With the upgrade treadmill slowing down big time (who, aside from the hardest of the hardcore gamers, actually NEEDS a 3 Ghz P4, or an Athlon XP 3000 in their home? Not too many people. Who aside from mass copyright actually needs a 120GB+ hard drive? Not a lot of people) they're realizing that they just aren't going to keep making money this way, because computers are appliances now. I don't think they'll go completely away, though they may be 99% laptops soon enough. What they're starting to realize is that devices are the way to go, because you can get an insane profit margin, and they appeal like crazy to most people, because people tend to be gadget maniacs. I don't know many people who don't have at least a single electronic gadget that they use regularly.
It's starting to happen. PDAs are finally starting to get good. Smartphones are starting to do relatively well in the States. The iPod. The Tablet PC. The Xbox, as gaming consoles have proved the viability of this type of model for over a decade. This is just the next step.
Ok, the first thing that comes to mind is those network PC's I haven't heard bugger about since the big dotcom dive in corporate spending. If they were a good idea (well, maybe this isn't a well thought out argument, feel free to disagree) they'd be on a lot of desktops by now. Think how much it would save the PHB in tech support.
The comparison to Apple is a natural. But, IMHO, Apple survives because they have a loyal following and many of their innovations are just that, innovations, not copied like *cough* *cough* Microsoft does (Embrace and extend ... this always reminds me of the phrase 'share and enjoy'...)
Apple, as far as I can say doesn't try to lock users into their hardware/environment, mostly just happens, but similar software exists on MS Windows and Linus so users are free to leave if they choose. Athens appears a clear ploy to further lock owners not only into
Microsoft Brand Windows Operating System, but Microsoft software products as well, i.e. This product only available for Brand A computer, 'cause all the patents belong to us. Buy these things and you limit your options. Ideal for the manager who
wants to have absolute control, but like IBM's PS/2 systems, a real mess if you want to upgrade or change anything.
While the current PC is a pretty sordid mess, an open standard would be infinitely preferable, for system makers as well as customers.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
Oh the sky is falling!
yawn.
Microsoft encourages new standards all the time and its no big deal. Previous deals with them produced both USB and cd-roms and every computer. It has benefited us. They do this because Sun and Apple have the benefit of controlling their own machines and setting standards. MS wants more security and an answer to bluetooth which is standard on all new macs.
In 1998 slashdotters critized Microsoft for supporting USB as a way to kill Linux. Today its greatly supported and any usb keyboard or mouse will be reconignzed by it.
If you are right and this shit happens then you can buy a mac.
However customers will not put up with that crap from WMA if apple ports itunes to Windows with more liberal licensing. Competition is strong.
I am sick of all this anti ms fud(even though I hate them) here. I found none of it in the actual story.
http://saveie6.com/
One of the big misconceptions is that HP does not support Linux. We actually do, it's just that we don't market that fact well. HP does have a desktop offerings with Linux installed. I'm assuming that HP will play both sides of the fence with separate offerings...
Microsoft (and Intel, and now HP, give them their credit as well) have been pushing and prodding the hardware guys into progress for more than a decade. The problem is that most hardware companies have no vision, no desire to innovate, no sense of design.
I've been to every WinHEC for the last few years and every year Microsoft is urging the hardware vendors to drop the legacy stuff. ISA slots suck and make Plug-and-Play a miserable experience, but we're only now seeing their complete and total death in new products. Microsoft and Intel pushed the standards to get rid of them.
Most PCs are built from standard components with standard dimensions and standard interfaces. Everything is interchangable. That decoupling has made the PC industry great and driven prices way down, but the Apple counterexample shows what tight integration and some design sense can buy you in both hardware and software. Both Microsoft and Intel would like to see a bit more innovation going on, and WinHEC is one place that they try to make their case.
locking Linux out of the desktop market
Ah, the usual Slashdot-spin tagline. Gotta love 'em.
PCs have become messes, and it's a worthy goal to try to deal with that. Kudos to Apple for taking some steps in the right direction, such as eliminating floppy drives and switching to LCD monitors for home models. That's just the beginning. PCs are still based around what's essentially become pointless upgrading, something that is now completely ignored by everyone except a certain set of gamers and hardware fanboys. (If you aren't shooting for bleeding edge games, any video card made since 2000 and any sound card made since 1995--including motherboard sound--is just grand.)
Linux, for me, is only worthwhile if it improves the overall computing experience. It does that well, for some things, but for others it has become a retro object d'art. Perhaps the most damning thing about Linux is the hugely conservative community surrounding it. Cries of "If you want change then _you_ do it" and endless arguments about sticking with Emacs and the X11 standard are all so inbred and meaningless. I will make fun of Microsoft along with everyone else as long as Bill Gates & company are stagnant and producing poor products. But as much as I hate to say it, they're moving forward with some interesting ideas. Sure, those ideas aren't original (what is?) but the key is that they have a direction and purpose.
They can do whatever they want. I personally don't care. If there's a machine that's controled in this fashion, I won't buy it. It's really that simple.
No Sales == No Production
No Production == Bad Idea
Bad Idea == Bag It.
Nope. I bet counsumers will eat this up if it meets the users wants and has a low price point.
You and I may not like it, but we don't control the end user market.
Like a rich uncle sending a check when the cupboards are bare
yeah, more like a rich uncle who has some goons beat the shit out of the grocery delivery man, then straps you to a table and feeds you cold oatmeal with cat urine and roaches in it.
While calling your mother and telling her that you've gone on a health-food kick.
PC moderators can suck my White pierced, tattooed dick. If you think pride == hate, s/dick/Aryan meat mallet/g.
You're not the target audience. The target audience is the one that doesn't care that alternate OS's can't be run or don't even understand what an OS is. And believe me, there are still a lot of people out there like this.
The product could fill this niche nicely and I suspect that there will always be a market for those of us who want full control over the hardware... they may just get a little harder to find.
You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
Cracking is one thing, having a well supported, integrated out of the box experience is something totally different. Anybody who installs Redhat with nVidia cards still get appalling speed because they are on the no-frills NV driver. You know the hoops you have to go through to run Linux on an XBox? It's strictly for hobbyists only.
Another poster in this thread pointed out that we don't control the desktop market - unfortunately the glut of WinModems and hardware with binary-only drivers hammers this fact home constantly. Until people start building Linux specific hardware and selling it in stores next to "standard" stuff, hardware support will continue to be a weak point in the armour of Linux.
Barriers being the architecture will be patented, useful info about the chipset and bus design will be secret.
Reverse engineering it all will be illegal under the DMCA.
Microsoft being involved in desktop hardware should result in more anti-trust accusations.
Look up the pc98 standard? MS and Intel drafted it. This is what brought us ps/2 and usb ports standard on all pc's. Before that was sound cards and cd-roms on multimedia-1 and multimedia-2 standard pc's by MS, Sony and I think Philips.
Microsoft can be nasty but this area is one of the few benefits of them. Sometimes they can encourage new standards.
All this is, is an alternative to Apple and Sun.
Apple laid the way towards multimedia years before the pc. MS and Sony got invovled because they did not want the Apple supperior.
MS wants to be involved in appliances and Apple has the advantage of setting standards with their hardware. They just do not want WIndows pc's left behind.
Believe me that this has nothing to do with Linux whatsoever. Linux is a competitor to WIndows2k3 server and not the desktop( yet ).
http://saveie6.com/
I think the biggest reason why the industry is slumping is that most of the people who want a computer at home have one. It does what they need it to and they do not have a compelling reason to blow $1,000 every year or two to keep up with technology. Year before the year before lasts computer is fast enough and reliable enough for what they need. I don't think HP cloning Apple with M$ software embedded in it is going to make them change their mind.
For the geeks, however, the extra horsepower is used probably as much as it is desired. These same people, however, are the least likely to want to be bundled to M$. I think M$ would be better served to make what they have work without the requisite ripping out of hair every few days.
Another $.02 into poverty...
If brevity is the soul of wit, then how does one explain Twitter?
I disagree. We, as most readers of /., do not buy systems for the same reasons that the vast majority of end users do. /. reader wants a powerful machine in with a lot of flexability, and generaly cares little about the case it comes in.
The end user wants a toster. Something cheap and easy to use. They also want it to look nice in their living area.
The average
There is nothing keeping the two worlds apart except money. There is nothing wrong with what the end user wants either.
They are not idiots, they are just not interested in the workings of the machine. They just want it to work.
The best thing that the open source community can do for these users is try to make that perfect toaster work better for less.
If MS wants to make hardware, so be it. If they make great hardware, fine. If its good, someone will create a clone. Our job is to make it cost less and run better by writing better software for it.
Main HD, spin up.
It's you!
How are you Gentleman. All your kernel are belong to us.
Compile you say?
You have no chance to link, make your time.
Ha Ha Ha.
(Incidently, it's set up us, not set us up)
--
Internet Explorer (n): Another bug -- that is, a feature that can't be turned off -- in Windows.
I'm suprised no one noticed the new strategy being implemented.
Nothing was called "Open Source" on the webpage for Linux. It's all called "freely shared", as in illegal music files.
It might be my paranoid side talking, but that was the scariest part of the article, not trying to lock out Linux, but making it sound like "freely shared" is a BAD thing (It's illegal to "freely share" MS Office, or Windows, or MP3's).
"Only in their dreams can men truly be free 'twas always thus, and always thus will be."
--Tom Schulman
the government does it all the time, it's called "stroke of the (bribed) pen, law of the land". When is the last time you could buy a new scanner that got cell phone freqs? You used to be able to buy one legally, now you have to jump through smuggling hoops or be a leet modder. Heck, they even mandated some TV specs so you couldn't tune in to some freqs. They "passed a law". When was the last time you could legally put a no BS carb that actually worked efficiently on your car? You can't now legally, although you can get "off road" carbs, if you are caught with one installed and driving on the road it's a serious fine and/or your vehicle gets seized. I have an example right now with my jeep, the stock legal carb just sucks large donkey nuts, it never works correctly, I KNOW from networking with 4 wheeler guys an off road carb works better and makes less pollution because it will stay inside specs-but it's "illegal" to install one. So, I haven't, don't want to take a chance on having my vehicle impounded. How about the classic watching a DVD legally on your linux box? You can't do it legally.
They pass laws affecting hardware all the time, it's a constant with bribed "government". They could EASILY pass a law stating no such and such styled MOBOs can be produced or imported into the US unless they had these "security features" installed that would restrict you and identify you in various ways. They could also go so far as to restrict any non complint hardware from accessing the internet, enforce it at the ISP and telco level, making your older tech obsolete, forcing upgrades, or making you take a risk of a label of being a criminal, subject to..whatever. They are just getting rolling with busting the P2P swappers, think they are going to just stop now?
It's all doable. That's what all these new super DMCA styled laws are all about, applying it to exact hardware specs is the next logical step for "them", them being the monopolists and the opposite side of the demon siamese twin 'government". And they got the buckets of coin and people with bad attidues with guns to make it happen, and you don't got the buckets of coin and personal armies to make it *not* happen, complain as you might, in most cases anyway. You might "get away with it" for some time as a scofflaw and flaunter, similar thinking has lead to over 2 million people in prison today,the vast majority of whom thought they were "leet" enough to "get away with" various drug possession and transfer. Stupid laws, yes. Enforceable? yes, to any level the government chooses to enforce them. If there's a buck in it for someone,and especially a cartel of someones with stealth monopoly on their minds, they will pass and 'enforce" whatever they want to, constitution be danged with those people. It's a joke to them, and every one knows it.
The goons have a way of making things happen in their favor, it seems to work for them. They use the carrot and the stick approach, and unless your carrots are much bigger and juicier and your stick much harder and faster, you will lose,and they will win in the long run.
Heck, they couldn't lock Linux out of their game-console, what makes them think they can lock it out of a desktop PC?!