Study: Visual Basic use on the decline

santos_douglas writes "ZDNet news has this story on a study by market researcher Evans Data showing that 'professional' use of Microsoft's Visual Basic language is down significantly. The study pegs VB use at 52%, but of those surveyed 43% intend to switch soon. Of those 31% intend to use Java, and 39% C#, the remaining 30% are not described. The reason: '"As they leave Visual Basic 6.0 behind, developers are choosing languages that help them work more easily with emerging technologies such as wireless and Web services development," said Esther Schindler, senior analyst at Evans Data, in a statement.'"

Comments

Switching from VB

[chris_mahan]

Personally, I am moving to Python. Nothing against VB per say, but tired of paying for the MS IDE.

Re:Switching from VB

[Anonymous Coward]

Tired of paying for the MS IDE?

I am a UNIX Perl programmer, and would gladly pay the $100 just for the VB IDE ability to complete object method and property names with alone.

I hate windows development, but I do like the IDE.

The ActiveState IDE is lame.

Re:Switching from VB

[hswerdfe]

eclipse has intelli sense. ..Its a Free, Java IDE
with plugins for other languages, and syntax.
I'm not sure if there is a plugin for perl..(I never looked...but if there isn't you could make one...:)

so does Kdevelop (I am told). and your suppostded to be able to write pluggins for that one to...but I wouldn't know.

Re:Switching from VB

[chris_mahan]

I actually use jEdit (jEdit.org) and it's very nice, with autocomplete (not for VB though, but that's ok) for java and a few others.

would like to see it go

[f0rtytw0]

As much as I dislike VB and its ability to suck my will to live I would still use it to throw together something real quick that requires a gui of sorts. Its embarrassing to even admit that I've used it before though. Anyone have any suggestions for something else I could use?

Re:would like to see it go

[seann]

That embeds beautifuly with microsoft applications?
nope.

Re:would like to see it go

[Eponymous Coward]

I've been using PythonCard. It's a cross between Hypercard and Python and seems to work very well. I use it to put a quick GUI on scripts that I often use.

-ec

Re:would like to see it go

[t482]

Check out a quick faq I wrote http://www.xminc.com/linux/wxpython.html. I would check out kylix from borland or wxWindows.

Moving from windows to linux development you are confronted with a myriad of options. QT vs GTK+? Which language should I use: c/c++/java/perl/tcl/python/ruby or javascript? Should I use a commercial/proprietary layout/rad tool (QT or Kylix) or an open source one? What about Mozilla? My background was primarily in programming Visual Basic and Lotus Notes(Basic, Java, c/c++ api). Where should I start?

Re:would like to see it go

[Anonymous Coward]

Use Delphi/Kylix. It's as Easy as VB, has real OOP and a real compiler like C. It has type checking, a nice IDE, and is available for Linux and Windows. What's more, there is a free (no cost) version of the linux IDE, and many of the base libraries and add-ons are open-source.

Re:would like to see it go

[Scherf]

Borland Delphi. Creating GUI Applications with it is as easy as with VB, the integration with that whole Windows stuff (ActiveX, OLE, ...) is pretty good, you can write real Applications with to and everything (besides the Windows stuff of course) is easily portable to Linux. On the other hand, the commercial distributions are pretty expensive. Something about 1500 Euro for the Professional edition. The so called "Open" Edition is for free, but you may only write GPLed software with it.

Re:would like to see it go

[Chelloveck]

Java is one way to go. The NetBeans IDE is open-source and cross-platform. It has a GUI builder, but I admit I haven't used it yet. All my Java has been console stuff so far.

Or, try using JavaScript in a browser. No, really. You can use HTML and DOM to make a nifty quick'n'dirty GUI, with JavaScript to back it up. I've done this when I've needed to write tools that must run on stock Windows PCs (can't install Perl or Sun's JVM; just my app). Works great, except for the MS-isms in the IE DOM.

Re:would like to see it go

[Trogre]

Delphi.

Re:would like to see it go

[Anonymous Coward]

VB.Net. Familiar syntax, much better language, and better gui tools too.

Re:would like to see it go

[TummyX]

As much as I dislike VB and its ability to suck my will to live I would still use it to throw together something real quick that requires a gui of sorts


Yeah. If you want the GUI to be static and only look good at the resolution you're running on :-|.

Re:would like to see it go

[conteXXt]

gambas is coming along. I think it's at gambas.sourceforge.net

This is the best news piece for a long time

[pbox]

This is the best news piece for a long time! You just brightened my day.

Re:This is the best news piece for a long time

[cyb97]

As long as all these migrating programmers stay with java and other rubberhead-safe languages and stay away from the lurking dangers of buffer-overruns and c... I guess the world is just about the same...
Must say tho' VB seems like a good RAD-tool

Ding dong the witch is dead!

[Anonymous Coward]

Cue many trolls writing "Visual Basic is DYING" posts

Visual Basic is DYING post

[Anonymous Coward]

Visual Basic is DYING.

Re:Visual Basic is DYING post

[Violet Null]

Come on. If you're going to do it, you have to do it proper:

FACT: Visual Basic is dying. Netcraft has recently confirmed what we've all known for some time: that Visual Basic is dying.

Recent studies...yadda yadda

Re:Visual Basic is DYING post

[Anonymous Coward]

I can't believe this scored a 1 - what was he saying???

Statistics

[Ratbert42]

... 43% intend to switch soon.

Yawn. Let me know when they've actually switched. If you took a survey here two years ago we'd have been 75% Java soon. Yet here we are, two years later, and it's more like 5%.

'professional' use of Microsoft's Visual Basic

[Glass of Water]

What does the word "professional" mean? That means it's not on the decline for people who use VB just for fun and laughs?

Here's the other scary thing: 52% OF 600 PROGRAMMERS ARE USING VB???!!! Not all of them intend to switch??? Let's hope that's not a representative sample.

Re:'professional' use of Microsoft's Visual Basic

[Anonymous Coward]

As usual, they are using 'All Software Developers' as a pseudonym for 'All Microsoft Enterprise Database Developers'.

Re:'professional' use of Microsoft's Visual Basic

[gl4ss]

it's just how you calculate the number of programmers :). maybe the beginning questions in the beginning of the survey weren't very good at distinguishing ms-db monkeys(or admins) from programmers, and maybe those were just casual scripters and vb happened to be the only thing they knew.

seriously though, it's sad. i've thought of learning vbscript/asp to get a job.. sigh. .. just read the other day of a job offering for the summer for 'software developer', requirements were asp(vbscript) , sql and databases(?, i wonder if that sql is used for something else than databases then, scary thing is that i thought of applying for it even not knowing few lines more of vbscript because it just can't be that hard, so i could cope easily with google at the job, though no doubt provide crappy code by any other standards than usual vbscripter)

it's not about the best tool for the job for most people in the industry, rather it's the this is the company way for now for some reason so obvious we don't know.

Re:'professional' use of Microsoft's Visual Basic

[pmz]

That means it's not on the decline for people who use VB just for fun and laughs?

I've heard from a reliable source (my imagination) that 73% of masochists use VisualBasic. They like the inescapable lock-in and they love GOTO.

Re:'professional' use of Microsoft's Visual Basic

[Anonymous Coward]

Here's the other scary thing: 52% OF 600 PROGRAMMERS ARE USING VB?...Let's hope that's not a representative sample.

Nope, that's all of them.

Dumping VB, to make Wireless and webservices

[Rares Marian]

Why does that sound like they're getting rid of crapware so they can use real tools for developing vapourware?

C# the java killer? More like VB Killer!

[pr0c]

C# is the perfect blend of vb java and c++, it has rad as well as power and even cross platform support coming up quick (http://www.go-mono.com). C# has a very good free IDE (SharpDevelop) which is also going to be cross platform.

So what does c# have going against it? m$ haters that won't look past the fact that c# came from m$. I don't like m$ either but c# will join the ranks of c++ and c in regards to a publised standard language unlike java.

Re:C# the java killer? More like VB Killer!

[Anonymous Coward]

But VB, C++ and Java ALL suck from many people's perspective. And C# combines the ugly syntax of C++ and XML with the protect-the-poor-doumb-programmer-from-himself attitude of VB and Java!

Personally, I like Common Lisp, which is so much better than any of them (and much less bloated than C# or Java - yes lisp was bloated once, but compared to a JVM, it's a model of efficiency! )

And - ooh, you'll like this - it's ANSI standard!

Re:C# the java killer? More like VB Killer!

[pmz]

C# is the perfect blend of vb java and c++, it has rad as well as power and even cross platform support coming up quick

RAD is a myth.

Cross platform support from Microsoft is a siren song leading into a slippery trap.

m$ haters that won't look past the fact that c# came from m$.

The fact that it came from Microsoft is rather compelling.

a publised standard language unlike java

Standardizing the language is of very limited value. How many of the important APIs have been standardized? APIs form lock-in, not languages.

Re:C# the java killer? More like VB Killer!

[pr0c]

RAD is a myth.
LOL what an asinine comment. You write a complete app in C or C++ (dont' be using templates) and i'll do the same in c#, i'll not only complete it far quicker than you i'll use 50%+ less lines of code.

Cross platform support from Microsoft is a siren song leading into a slippery trap.
I missed if anyone said microsoft was making this cross platform. Who said that? I said it was being done if thats what you mean i never gave the slightest hint that microsoft had anything to do with it, as a matter of fact on the contrary if your ass would have followed the link provied you see that Ximian (makers of Redcarpet and major contributor to gnome) are the primary force behind Mono aka C# on linux as well as many other platforms. Try to RTFA next time.

The fact that it came from Microsoft is rather compelling.
Irrelovent.

Standardizing the language is of very limited value. How many of the important APIs have been standardized? APIs form lock-in, not languages.
Bullshit, again if you would have read the fucking site i linked you to you'd know the answers to these questions. Here is another link Mono .24 has been released

Its unfortunate for all of use that there are people like you. You have a hate for microsoft, like most of use including myself but your brain is tainted because you cannot look past the fact that somethign that is now independant from (but strongly used by) microsoft. Microsoft heavily uses c, c++ and asm too, do you hate those languages? Would you hate linux if microsoft suddenly contributed 50% of the kernel code and it was commited? Probably... how sad.

Re:C# the java killer? More like VB Killer!

[pmz]

LOL what an asinine comment. You write a complete app in C or C++ (dont' be using templates) and i'll do the same in c#, i'll not only complete it far quicker than you i'll use 50%+ less lines of code.

C++, C#, and Java would all be approximately the same for development speed, given comparable sets of class and function libraries. C is clearly more verbose. Lisp would best them all. Regardless, "rapid development" and "complete application" are mutually exclusive for all but the most trivial applications, because the 80/20 rule is universal.

...if your ass would have followed the link provied you see that Ximian (makers of Redcarpet and major contributor to gnome) are the primary force behind Mono aka C# on linux as well as many other platforms. Try to RTFA next time.

The set of APIs is just too big, and .NET is just too complex. Mono will probably be forever incomplete just like the free Java implementations or WINE. This is simply history repeating itself.

Its unfortunate for all of use that there are people like you.

I'm heartbroken.

Re:C# the java killer? More like VB Killer!

[Eric Savage]

Actually you have it backwards:

So what does c# have going FOR it? java haters that won't look at any lanugage that didn't come from m$.

Java works with JREs from competing companies (IBM,Sun). Java works on any platform. So what is the point of a "standard"? All an IEEE standard is going to do is dramatically slow down changes (which have almost exclusively been for the better) to the language. A scientist's stamp on a specification means a heck of alot less to me than a signature on my paycheck, which is going to be bigger if I'm using a language that quickly adapts itself to the business environment.

Re:C# the java killer? More like VB Killer!

[pr0c]

I occasionally use java when the environment requires it. I'm not going to claim that c# is better than java and i have not done so above. I prefer c#, simple as that. Java changes so constantly.. you got awt, swing, netbeans.. on and on. When java doesn't run like shit and when java doesn't consume so much memory and when there is a decent non buggy pile of shit IDE for it i'll use it even more.

Java works with JREs from competing companies IBM,Sun). Java works on any platform.
And your point is... As mentioned several times above so does c#/.net and it yes it needs a great deal of improvment. C#/.net is tryig to be everything java is++

So what is the point of a "standard"? To ensure growth and popularity.

All an IEEE standard is going to do is dramatically slow down changes (which have almost exclusively been for the better) to the language. Fantastic!

A scientist's stamp on a specification means a heck of alot less to me than a signature on my paycheck, which is going to be bigger if I'm using a language that quickly adapts itself to the business environment. Ya common sense says follow the money, FOR ME the money is in c#/.net right now.

I'm not trying to start a flame war, i'm not trying to piss people off and i'm not trying to stray off topic, in all truthfullness java is my #2 prefrence for programming then maybe c++ although the distance between #2 and #3 is lightyears. Look at my title... i'm saying that c# is not a threat to java, i'm saying its a threat to VB.

Re:C# the java killer? More like VB Killer!

[Ed Avis]

I don't think that the IBM and Sun JREs can fairly be described as 'competing' because IBM licenses code from Sun. They aren't independent implementations as far as I know.

Re:C# the java killer? More like VB Killer!

[erc]

Go ahead, write your app in C-whatever or Java, and I'll do it in VB, and I'll be finished and sipping coffee while you're still coding the mainline. I'll be rolling out code to paying clients while you're still trying to debug yet another pointer problem or buffer overflow bug.

Re:C# the java killer? More like VB Killer!

[Anonymous Coward]

"Standardizing the language is of very limited value."

Yes, ANSI/ISO C and C++ is of very little value!

First step, take it out of the schools

[rumpledstiltskin]

A friend of mine at the University of Houston actually had one of his first CS classes done in Visual Basic. I was flabbergasted. Admittedly, U of H is not a top tier school, but surely they have standards?

Re:First step, take it out of the schools

[hswerdfe]

What ever man....you can learn from vb

My First Prgamming course ever was in pascal
my second in VB.

both languages suck shit....but the courses weren't there to teach me objects,

the first one was an intro to proceedural programming, the second was numerical computation...

for some programming couses Maple or MatLab is good enough

Re:First step, take it out of the schools

[Anonymous Coward]

Numerical computation.. in VB????

Mad.

Re:First step, take it out of the schools

[hswerdfe]

VB-3 No less.

Any thing with basic logic structures would have done.
hell, Fortran would have been fine.

from my experiance 80% of Numerical Computation is a few Basic Laws of Physics....and One REALLY BIG LOOP.

and a text file output.

at least thats all the 60 year old professors at my university no how to code and teach...:)

VB6--Not VB.NET

[mattc58]

The way I read this is that VB6 is going way. I would imagine that VB.NET usage is holding steady.

Re:VB6--Not VB.NET

[Samus]

Thats what I read too. The news I think is that not many of the people are going to be moving to VB.Net. The numbers are thrown around rather confusingly though. 57% of the 52% of the programmers who are VB developers plan to stick with VB. 33% of those will be moving to VB.Net So whats it all mean? Nothing really. A lot of people can't take the time to move their apps to VB.Net b/c of the syntax changes and given the choice they would rather try to learn C# than VB.Net most likely because its more hot and trendy.
Personally I've used VB.Net and think the syntax changes just feel bolted on. Some of it gives you improved features and other changes neuter parts of the language in order to conform to the .Net platform. It kind of leaves you with the feeling that you are programming in Frankenstein.Net. So would I advocate moving to C# instead for my company? The answer is no and the reason is that most of the pc programmers in my company (not a software dev shop) barely know what an object is let alone how to make one. MS has done them a favor in VB.Net and made it compatible enough that they can continue to program the same way they used to in VB6.

Re:VB6--Not VB.NET

[hswerdfe]

noone said vb as elequant...

most of the pc programmers in my company (not a software dev shop) barely know what an object is let alone how to make one.

=) your one up on me.
Most of the programmers in my office don't even know what an object is...:)

Fuck VB is Retarded...it is just barely as scripting language

Re:VB6--Not VB.NET

[pmz]

Frankenstein.Net

This would be the perfect umbrella brand for all the .NET-labeled stuff floating around.

Re:VB6--Not VB.NET

[Lips]

Look, I hate VB (and Microsoft) and it sucks like life out of me also, as a previous poster said. But if you know its guts (and COM/COM+), you can do a lot of good work with it. It does have some real OO features such as polymorphism and interface inheritance. Unfortunately most VB devs are drag and droppers who know sweet FA about real programming and it shows in the poor quality code they produce. If you are a VB dev then the best way to really learn it is with the book: Microsoft Visual Basic Design Patterns (MS Press).

In other news,...

[bcrowell]

...polls report

• a 10% decline in glue-sniffing among high school students
• a 3% reduction in the portion of the population that doesn't wear seatbelts because they believe they'll be thrown clear in the event of a collision
• a 5% decrease in the number of people who report having flushed disposable diapers down the toilet in the last month

Re:In other news,...

[oliverthered]

you can flush disposable diapers, wow, all this time I've been recycling them.

Like they have a choice?

[Violet Null]

It's not like there's going to be a VB7, y'know. Since VB is proprietary, and it's owner isn't interested in continuing it, of course it will go the way of the dodo.

The natural progression is to migrate from VB to VB.Net, but since the step from VB.Net to C# is so tiny, most people, it seems, aren't even going to bother with VB.Net.

Re:Like they have a choice?

[erc]

the step from VB.Net to C# is so tiny

Really? I can see you know nothing about either VB or C#...

Re:Like they have a choice?

[Anonymous Coward]

You think there's a big jump between VB.Net and C#?? Go down to Borders and look at the O'Reilly book on the differences between the two. It's a small trade-paperback format, about a quarter of an inch thick. Or, since you seem to think you're an expert, why don't you explain to me why every example in the .Net documentation has both a VB and a C# version, and they're practically line-by-line identical other than the syntax.

There are just a few real functional differences, all fairly minor. No biggie.

there are lies, damn lies, and statistics

[peteshaw]

I just loved this part

"Of those developers who said they would stick
with Visual Basic, one-third said they plan to upgrade to the latest version, called VB.Net."

So of the developers who liked VB and intended to continue using it, two thirds plan on not continuing to use the same tools forever? They just see themselving cranking out serpenting procedural code with no option explicit, late binding object references and using one character variable names for as long as they can possibly get away with it?

Hmmmm... sounds like government work to me.

But seriously. VB is a huge product no longer being developed. Of course people will use something else. What the heck else are they going to do?

Re:there are lies, damn lies, and statistics

[Thoguth]

I wouldn't be surprised. There are still people seriously using Visual FoxPro for new projects, just because they get the job done. There was an article here a while back about somebody getting sued by MS for showing people how to use VFP on Linux, or something like that.

Re:there are lies, damn lies, and statistics

[erc]

They just see themselving cranking out serpenting procedural code with no option explicit, late binding object references and using one character variable names for as long as they can possibly get away with it?

Not necessarily. First thing I do is go into the options and turn on "require variable declarations", I only use single letter variable names for "FOR" statements, and no one does late binding anymore. There's also a huge base of legacy VB code out there. Just as the mainframe will never go away, so will VB never go away. Face reality.

Re:there are lies, damn lies, and statistics

[Tablizer]

They just see themselving cranking out serpenting procedural code

Hey Hey! Don't bash procedural (VB aside). There is no evidence that OOP is objectively better. With a good DB, procedural can kick OO's butt becuase OOP hard-wires the noun-model in code instead of letting it be dynamically viewed and queried. Set your nouns free: dump OO. oop.ismad.com.

in a way. . .

[TheRealRamone]

C# is like a hybrid of C++ and VB

--TRR

What about Qt??

[boy_afraid]

I have to develop an application from scratch. I've been researching and wondering what is the best cross-platform tool that will give me everything I want, plus interfaction with a great database (cross platform also with good replication feature). What do you all think of Qt from Trolltech? It's cross platform.

VB.Net Isn't That Bad....

[Tsali]

I've had the fun of working with VB6 for years, and VB.Net does some things pretty well compared to former versions of the language. However, when you look around out there, other options are opening up.

The most exciting one I've been following is SharpDevelop + SWT. Throw Mono into the mix and you might see some commercial public programs that are cross-platform in nature. If Longhorn forces a rewrite of all the old code for Windows anyways, this combination looks very potent.

Java and Eclipse is the other end of the spectrum, and again, if SWT actually pays off, you will see a lot of people jump off.

I would *love* to see python + SWT merged together. That would be an absolute hoot.

Vanilla VB6 shielded you from the API unless you actually needed it (and you had to hack around to do anything out of the ordinary) - now that .Net mandates wallowing through its packages, why *not pick up Java? If I've gotten to that level of complexity, I would opt for the cheapest way out - and Java and/or any other free language implementation + GUI will do the trick just fine.

However, since I work at a strict MS shop with a legacy VB6 app we just finished three years ago, it's going to be mild with nice breezes in hell before we move onward.

2005/2006 will be very interesting. Microsoft isn't innovating anything remarkable and Mono + Java have the potential to catch up in feature set. If Microsoft renders all former software broken (or forced through an emulator) AND pushes DRM, Linux might gain a foothold with *corporate* and *small business* support.

I am a VB6 programmer by trade, and it took me learning Python, C#, and VB.Net to undo my habits, plus a healthy dose of unit testing and extreme programming. Methodologies mean more than languages.

groan

[Anonymous Coward]

...yet again the slashdot jackboot falls on both choice and upon the general notion that you have to use the most over-complex soultion to any given problem.

You *can* write programs in Visual Basic, and it is rather easy to do so. If its the quickest/easiest way to skin the particular cat you are after, why not?

I use VB fairly often and my background is in raw assembly. One of its key advantages is that people who don't have my background (non-programmers really) can fairly straightforwardly work out whats going on and make trivial changes themselves (and experience from Excel's mini-VB is transferable to the problem for them as well). Thats never gonna happen if I write in C++ is it. Everything has its place.

Embarrassing?

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

Its embarrassing to even admit that I've used [VB] before though.

Why? Although I've never used it "seriously" myself, even I can see its obvious attraction for some types of job, and that it would be more appropriate than C++, Java, Python, or whatever other alternative. As with anything, you should pick the right tool for the job, whether or not it happens to be from Microsoft and whatever its reputation amongst certain types of programmer.