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Texas Hearings On Open Source Bill

fusion812 writes "Senate Bill 1579 is proposed Texas state legislation that would require state agencies to consider 'open source software' when purchasing computer software. The bill has been introduced in the Senate, referred to committee, and is awaiting a schedule date for a hearing." Here's some more information from EFF Austin; fusion812 supplies a summary of the bill's provisions as well as a Real Audio sample of the provided testimony, both below. Also, see this report on NewsForge for some juicy quotes.

A sample recording of testimony can be heard here: http://www.Senate.state.tx.us/ram/archive/2003/may /050803StAffpm.ram

More information: Texas Senate Bill 1579
Senate Bill 1579 proposes that, for all new software acquisitions, a state agency shall:
1. consider acquiring open source software products in addition to proprietary software products;
2. except as provided by Subdivisions (4) and (5), acquire software products primarily on a value-for-money basis;
3. provide justification whenever a proprietary software product is acquired instead of open source software;
4. avoid the acquisition of products that do not comply with open standards for interoperability or data storage;
5. avoid the acquisition of products that are known to make unauthorized transfers of information to, or permit unauthorized control of or modification to the state government's computer systems by, parties outside the control of the state government."

168 comments

  1. OSS by MisterFancypants · · Score: 0, Troll
    Obviously these states aren't considering the long-term results of Open Source Software and the effects on the economy, as more and more software developers are put out of jobs in favor of using free (as in beer) code.

    OSS is an OK idealist idea, but in practice what it will do is completely stall the world economy.

    1. Re:OSS by Loki_1929 · · Score: 4, Funny

      Damnit, Bill, we asked you to stop posting here! :P

      --
      -- "Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."
    2. Re:OSS by Rooktoven · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Hardly. It would allow companies spend in areas other than software, or even to (gasp) hire programmers-- thus putting more programmers to work.

      This merely means that the software dollar isn't spent on licensing and (read mostly Microsoft) marketing, but rather on specific goals that meet company or individual needs.

      --

      Acquiescence leads to obliteration
    3. Re:OSS by Davak · · Score: 1
      Lighten up, mods...

      This is an opinion, not a troll. If you disagree, supply proof that he's wrong. If you believe he's just stirring up trouble, then mark it "flamebait"

      There is a core group of coders that believe this...

      Davak

    4. Re:OSS by phippy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      while I'm sure that this IS a troll, i'll bite because I'm waiting on a Solaris upgrade that'll take a while...

      if OSS will completely stall the world economy, then why hasn't it already ? Sendmail ? Apache ? BIND ? these things essentially run the internet, having more use than any other of its closed source counterparts, by an astronomically high rate.

      please explain how OSS will stall the economy. if you have no response, then my idea of it being a troll may have been true.

    5. Re:OSS by extremecenter · · Score: 4, Insightful
      "... developers are put out of jobs in favor of using free (as in beer) code."

      Actually I think Bruce Sterling has it right - open source is "free, like a puppy". It needs plenty of care and feeding, so it's better that the IT budget gets spent on people to do that instead of supporting huge licensng fees.

    6. Re:OSS by johannesg · · Score: 5, Interesting
      That's nonsense. Let me demonstrate: if I am furbishing an office with software I need to obtain an OS, some office software (word processor, spread sheet, mailer, ...), and maybe some software specific to the task the office performs.

      If I chose open source software I download a free copy of Linux, Open Office, and Evolution, and I have the rest developed for me. The local economy benefits because I get some software developed and because I pay someone to support my computer network and the software I installed.

      If I chose proprietary software I buy a copy of Windows, Microsoft Office, and Outlook, and again I have the rest developed for me. The local economy benefits because I get some software developed and because I pay someone to support my computer network and the software I installed. Looks familiar?

      The major difference between the two solutions is that in the first solution I am not sponsoring a foreign corporation (I'm not in the USA), leaving me more money that I can spend locally - on the software I commissioned, for example.

      And if I were located in the USA the same argument would in all likelyhood still hold. Ask yourself how you profit from the $40e9 or so that Microsoft has lying around, or the ridiculous profits they announce every year. Would it not be better to plunge that money into a small local company that employs maybe 30 people and is willing to provide you with 24x7 support for your Linux systems?

      The economy does not benefit from a single titanic company collecting a tax over all computers and software. It does benefit from those local companies. As a simple test, try this: enumerate all people you know who work in IT. How many work for Microsoft? How many work in a small 'local' company?

      'Open Source' does not mean that all software development will stop. So many people need software, and they all need something slightly different, made to perfectly match what they are doing. Most software development is done on this basis, and Open Source will not change that need. Only software companies that sell pre-packaged solutions to large crowds need to fear it.

    7. Re:OSS by phippy · · Score: 1

      I agree with you..also another point is that OpenSource software isn't always free (as in beer)..sometimes, OSS costs money to buy.

    8. Re:OSS by subzerohen · · Score: 2, Insightful

      *bzzzt* Wrong, most software developers do not work on software that is sold, they work on stuff that buisnesses need to, well, do buisness.

      How many developers do you know?

      How many developers do you know that develop software that is sold?

      QED

    9. Re:OSS by Xtifr · · Score: 5, Insightful

      That's not about OSS, that's the way the industry has always gone. Developers (and software companies) have been being put out of jobs since long before OSS came into the spotlight. There used to be a competitive market in word processors for MS platforms. Now, all those companies that made those products are nothing but a dim rememberance. Remember Stacker? Remember Borland? Remember DRI?

      Or, on a more personal note, I once worked for a company that made PC-based point-of-sale systems; we charged a couple of thousand dollars, but that included updates and support. We were very competitive in the market at that time. Then along came a company that sold a competitive product for a couple of hundred bucks (with no support or updates, of course), and our company took a major hit, and had to lay off most of the workforce (including me). But that's just standard free-market capitalism -- offer what appears to be a better product and/or what appears to be a better price, and steal your competitors' customers, maybe even put them out of business.

      As for OSS, companies like Trolltech or Sleepycat are using it as a competitive advantage. And last I heard, competition was supposed to be good for the world economy! Of course, it can be painful for individuals who find themselves being out-competed (see last paragraph), but it's still overall a good thing.

      The thing you're complaining about has nothing to do with OSS per se; OSS is simply a sign that software is moving from being an expensive specialty market with high margins to being a large commodity market with razor-thin margins. Overall, I think that's a good thing, even though there's obviously going to be a lot of disruption involved.

      Finally, consider my first job as a software developer: I got a contract to write a quicksort for a new machine. Nowadays, quicksort is included in the standard C library. Let us take a moment to weep for all those poor software developers who no longer have an opportunity to make money writing quicksort. And then let us move back to the realm of sanity. I don't want to write quicksorts for the rest of my life. I'm tired of re-inventing wheels, just because the older wheels are all proprietary. If you can't find some productive arena to apply your expertise, then maybe you are in the wrong business. Software developers aren't owed a living any more than buggy-whip manufacturers are. When the market moves on, it's time to move with it.

    10. Re:OSS by sheldon · · Score: 2, Informative

      "It needs plenty of care and feeding, so it's better that the IT budget gets spent on people to do that instead of supporting huge licensng fees."

      NO! NO! NO! A thousand times NO!

      I used to work for state government, and what you are describing is EXACTLY the mentality which has balooned the budget problems.

      You are encouraged, nay rewarded, to not do things efficiently but rather to guarantee your job position.

      You're just encouraging bad behavior.

    11. Re:OSS by sheldon · · Score: 1

      "The major difference between the two solutions is that in the first solution I am not sponsoring a foreign corporation"

      I assume you must live in Taiwan then, since in both examples you are supporting the Taiwanese electronics industry by purchasing a computer.

      Or perhaps it's a combination of Taiwan, Korea, China and Malaysia. Regardless you are benefiting from globalism... i.e. that computer cost you far less because it was imported from Taiwan. The same is true for software as well as other products such as automotives, etc.

      Your argument overall is very naive.

    12. Re:OSS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "It needs plenty of care and feeding, so it's better that the IT budget gets spent on people to do that instead of supporting huge licensng fees."

      So you're saying it makes more sense to create incomplete, hard-to-use, buggy OSS software that needs lots of "care and feeding" and thus lots of IT support people to consume the budget, rather than spending the money on software development to create good, solid, packages one time up front that don't need lots of recurring "care and feeding" by every user?

      Yeah, I can see why people would jump at the chance to buy software like that.

    13. Re:OSS by Trurl's+Machine · · Score: 2, Insightful

      There is a major flaw in your reasoning, and I will try to demonstrate it:

      If I chose open source software I download a free copy (...) If I chose proprietary software I buy a copy

      My point is that the person who actually furbishes the office rarely purchases the software himself, and it's hardly possible that he/she will actually download anything. In a typical case, he/she orders it to a third company, as he/she does it with telephones, plumbing, eletrical wiring etc. So you ALWAYS hire a subcontractor to do all this. A part of the subcontractor fee will probably go to foreign companies. That's inevitable. But if the "foreign included" solution will be cheaper than the "foreign not-included" solution, why not choose the first one? After all, the whole idea of free market is based on that. So the only question is whether state instutitions choose the truly cheaper (=with lower TCO) solution. Law should force them to do this, but in my opinion law should be blind on the proprietary/non-proprietary software question just as it should be blind on the racial/gender/religion etc. issues.

    14. Re:OSS by shaitand · · Score: 1

      Yes but an anal comment about where the hardware comes from when the subject is software is a little offtopic.

    15. Re:OSS by shaitand · · Score: 2, Insightful

      proprietary/non-proprietary is hardly comparable to race/gender/religion issues! the first two are a matter of birth and not choice, the last is simply irrelevent in any function government is supposed to be involved in.

      If the state uses open source software, they have guaranteed there will be continued support and they won't have to upgrade until they are ready, even if this means hiring programmers themselves.

      If they use proprietary software then information such as whether or not I've paid my taxes, showed up in court, etc are at the whim of a commercial entitity that can suddenly decide to say "no" one day or can go out of buisness taking their code with them. Proprietary companies have an interest in making you use more of their products and staying with their products, so they usually do not provide a ready means of tossing their products away in the future. These are facts not matters of preference. These are my tax dollars, and quite frankly scarlet, I'd rather not spend them when the superior or equivelent solutions tend to be free.

    16. Re:OSS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      While Microsoft software is proprietary, not all proprietary software is from Microsoft.

      By removing the proprietary software from the equation you also remove local, smaller software firms. Those firms generate revenue for the state.

    17. Re:OSS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Here's the difference between your nice little example of "setting up an office" and the actual state of affairs in most state offices in Texas: the office is already up and running. The workers are already using Microsoft and other proprietary products. They've already been trained on how to use them. The office's work flow has already been adapted to use these products. It's up, it's running, and it's working pretty well.

      The cost of using OSS is absolutely not in buying the software, yes. The cost is in re-training everyone in the office. Re-engineering all the work flows. Tweaking that free software to make it more like the proprietary stuff it's replacing. All those costs are very likely to be more -- FAR more -- than paying Microsoft another tithe. As someone who's given training classes to Texas government workers, I can attest that they already have a large amount of time, effort, and money invested in teaching the workers to use Windows-based applications. And some of these workers still barely get it. Throwing something like Linux at them will shut those agencies down. Seriously. Management knows this, so it will. Not. Happen.

      And that's just for the pure software applications. If there's one thing any government agency generates, it's paperwork. That paperwork has to be stored. Best way to store paperwork is by recording it's image and pitching the paper. Are there any open-source imaging solutions on the market? There's a hell of a lot of Windows-based ones. At almost all of them have friendly APIs so you can build your own in-house document apps... if you use Visual friggin' Basic. The whole document industry is based on either mainframes or Windows.

      The Congresscritters can pass whatever law they like. The stark reality is that Windows, and Windows based applications, are already deeply entwined throughout the way the state government does business. It will be child's play to show that (in all but the most trival places) it would cost more to switch to an OSS solution than to re-license what they already have.

      Apache may run a web site here and there, and mySQL might replace Access or SQL Server to serve something to that web site, but whoop-de-do; so what? Windows will still be doing all the heavy-lifting jobs, except for the truly *heavy* stuff that requires those ever-present mainframes to do.

    18. Re:OSS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh, sorry, one more thing I forgot to mention: for anyone who thinks this law might result in the hiring of some OSS-oriented programmers... well, the entire state of Texas government is currently under a hiring freeze. Nobody's getting hired.

      "Sure, Congressman X, we'd love to switch this office to Linux... but since we can't hire anyone new, we'd have to re-train everyone, including the programmers. And it's a lot cheaper just to send Microsoft another check and keep using all this software and programmers we already have. ... Thank you for approving our reason for not using open source, Congressman."

      Nothing's changing, folks.

    19. Re:OSS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It stopped being software when the topic turned to local economics.

    20. Re:OSS by ClosedSource · · Score: 1

      About 90% of the developers I've worked with in my career developed software that is sold. Just because a program can't be purchased at retail doesn't mean it isn't sold.

    21. Re:OSS by Tony-A · · Score: 1

      if OSS will completely stall the world economy

      It will.
      It will completely stall Microsoft's world economy.

  2. They love these things by RightInTheNeck · · Score: 5, Funny

    Senators live for these kind of hearings. They can make up at least 4 hours of quality sleep.

  3. KaZaa by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    5. avoid the acquisition of products that are known to make unauthorized transfers of information to, or permit unauthorized control of or modification to the state government's computer systems by, parties outside the control of the state government."

    So state workers in Texas will now be using KaZaa Lite.

    1. Re:KaZaa by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I can recal something in the Windows EULA that says Microsoft may take controll over the computer. Does this make it illegal for them to use Windows?

  4. Is there another clause by Timesprout · · Score: 3, Insightful

    provide justification whenever a proprietary software product is acquired instead of open source software;

    I have always been of the opinion that the correct tool should be chose for the task at hand, be that tooling open or proprietary I really dont care.

    I get concerned when I see clauses such as those above when there is no corresponding clause for justifying Open source choice over proprietary. Forcing adoption of Open Source thru legisaltion is every bit as bad, if not worse as the methods MS used to gain dominance.

    --
    Do not try to read the dupe, thats impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth
    What truth?
    There is no dupe
    1. Re:Is there another clause by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      No offense, but I'm getting sick of these "just use the right tool for the job" comments. Haven't you read Stallman? Think about where we'd all be if everyone had thought like this, why, we'd have no open source software at all! We'd all instead just be using "the right tool for the job (TM)" Remember, Linux wasn't always such a good OS. People had to work hard to make it that way. Jesus Christ, if there's something lacking in Free Software, work to make it better; don't throw up your hands and give in to the Dark Side.

    2. Re:Is there another clause by Rooktoven · · Score: 5, Insightful

      How do you know what the "right tool" is if you are locked into using certain proprietary software that through licensing perpetuates its presence indefinitely?

      Having to "consider" does not mean having to "use". I am amazed at how often this point is twisted. Besides, if closed source _is_ the best tool, why should its makers worry?

      --

      Acquiescence leads to obliteration
    3. Re:Is there another clause by Uber+Banker · · Score: 1, Funny

      ? ...locked in to using certain propriety software... ?

      Isn't it ironic they released a Real Aduio (TM) sample!

    4. Re:Is there another clause by phippy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      so you would rather "use the OSS tool for the job even tho it doesn't work" ? come on.

      if people prefer OSS, then they WILL make it better. but in the meantime, they'll use what works. or, at least they should. you can use OSS when it works better, which doesn't take that long to be the case.

    5. Re:Is there another clause by Malcontent · · Score: 3, Insightful

      How is this in any way forcing somebody to use open source. If you state govt just spent millions (or billions) on SQL server licences don't you think they taxpayers should ask "why did you choose SQL server when you could have gotten postgres, mysql, interbase, or sapdb for free?". Personally I would also ask them justify why they chose one proprietary product instead of using less expensive ones too.

      If they had legitamate reasons for choosing MS sql server then they should have no problems telling the taxpayers why.

      --

      War is necrophilia.

    6. Re:Is there another clause by lspd · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I get concerned when I see clauses such as those above when there is no corresponding clause for justifying Open source choice over proprietary.

      The justification for open source over proprietary is mentioned right above this requirement, namely unrestricted use, right to modify, right to distribute, and low up front costs. It doesn't bar any agency from choosing Word over OpenOffice. It just says that you can't pick MS Word without bothering to look at the alternatives and compare the total cost. You need to have a decent reason for picking proprietary software over free alternatives. Considering that it's my dime they're spending I don't think that's much to ask.

    7. Re:Is there another clause by dbarclay10 · · Score: 3, Insightful
      provide justification whenever a proprietary software product is acquired instead of open source software;
      I have always been of the opinion that the correct tool should be chose for the task at hand, be that tooling open or proprietary I really dont care.
      I get concerned when I see clauses such as those above when there is no corresponding clause for justifying Open source choice over proprietary. Forcing adoption of Open Source thru legisaltion is every bit as bad, if not worse as the methods MS used to gain dominance.

      I agree with you wholeheartedly, it's a sad state of affairs when people need to be told to justify picking the best solution available.

      Unfortunately, that IS the state of affairs. It's sad, but many, many, MANY proprietary software aquisitions aren't chosen because they're the best solution for the job, but because somebody got taken out to a nice dinner. What's more, in my experience, the people who are deciding what software to buy aren't even remotely qualified to evaluate whether or not it even solves the problem at hand, let alone whether it's the best solution or not.

      Does this happen with Open Source or Free Software? I've never seen it, but I'll accept for the sake of argument that it happens. But on a much, much, much smaller scale. Because of this problem, because it's so endemic with proprietary software but pretty much non-existent with Open Source and Free Software, because authorities routinely purchase software which doesn't fit the bill (so to speak), it's necessary to say to them, "allright, you can choose whatever you want, but if it's going to be proprietary, if it's going to cose us these truly distrubing amounts of money, you have to tell us why."

      It's a purely reactionary bill to a very specific trend that's been observed. It isn't an attempt to make some ethical statement, it's an attempt to stop the over-aquisition of software that costs more to buy, that costs more to maintain, and may not even solve the problem it was supposedly bought for.

      Why don't they say the same Open Source and Free Software? I dunno. I guess because up-front aquisition costs are so small in comparison to proprietary software as to be negligible (I've seen a government agency purchanse about six million dollars worth of Oracle licenses when all they needed were flat-file text databases, and would certainly have been served by one of MySQL, SAPDB, or Postgres. They could have bought the software, hardware, *and* support from a vendor like IBM for about a sixth of that). Perhaps it's also proven to be cheaper to maintain, as well. (And, in my experience, it always is. Invariably. I had six people working under me at one point maintaining a hundred Windows workstations. And they were overworked. I was maintaining, on my own, well over two hundred Unix workstations and servers. And I still had time left over to do the odd programming task that some other group needed, as well as "manage" the six Windows techs. They weren't idiots, either, they followed pretty decent administration policies. There have been studies to this affect. There have also been studies saying the opposite, but I'm sorry, my own experience trumps all studies that were paid-for by lobbiests :).

      Perhaps, if or when Open Source and Free Software proves to be more expensive to both purchase and maintain than the overwhelmingly vast majority of proprietary software that's bought, there will be another bill similar to this one, stating that government agencies must justify these obscene expenditures with little to no benefit. They've proven that they're willing to do it when it happens, so I'll have faith they'll do it again if it becomes necessary :)

      --

      Barclay family motto:
      Aut agere aut mori.
      (Either action or death.)
    8. Re:Is there another clause by Timesprout · · Score: 2, Interesting

      By all means consider all available solutions(realistic one anyway). To do otherwise would be remiss. There are IT professionals out there who are familiar with the capabilities and shortcoming of both proprietary and open source software you know and can make an informed and unbiased recommendation. My point was there seemed to be excessive emphasis on justifying proprietary selections over OSS ones which is not a fair selection process

      Frankly I am amazed at how frequently this "locked" argument is twisted. Proprietary software houses do not send armed guards to get your signature at gunpoint and prevent the installation/evaluation of other software. If you do not like the license you do not have to purchase and are free to find an alternative. If you cant find a suitable alternative then you can hire developers and build your own systems otherwise its welcome to a capitalist market and the law of supply and demand.

      --
      Do not try to read the dupe, thats impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth
      What truth?
      There is no dupe
    9. Re:Is there another clause by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The one question you don't consider, "How much do those taxpayers want to pay for the answer?" This could be a very expensive law, with little or now change to how much software is purchased.

    10. Re:Is there another clause by _Sprocket_ · · Score: 1

      This is one of those "clever" attempts at trolling, isn't it?

    11. Re:Is there another clause by pyros · · Score: 1

      You answer your own question. Justifying the purchase would just be proving that it is the correct tool. I think justification should always be given for a purchase made with taxpayer money, whether it's for proprietary software, open source software, or a new soda machine.

    12. Re:Is there another clause by BroncoInCalifornia · · Score: 1

      I agree there should be no preference for Open Source software. However these 2 factors are esential in selecting software for government use:

      4. avoid the acquisition of products that do not comply with open standards for interoperability or data storage;

      5. avoid the acquisition of products that are known to make unauthorized transfers of information to, or permit unauthorized control of or modification to the state government's computer systems by, parties outside the control of the state government."

      It is obvious software for government use should meet these criteria. It is also obvious a lot of proprietary does not meet these requirements.

      It is not wonder the mouthpieces for MSFT are at this hearing to head this off.

      I am listening to the hearing ( had to fast forward past the HMO stuff. Some notes:

      They removed a preference for Open Source from the Bill.

      "The Initiative for Software Choice" was there to say they support software choice, but actualy to fight it. Their representive talked about getting together with government IT managers to " help them make their decisions". Scarry stuff.

      The Business Software Alliance was there to oppose it. (Hey, if more people used Open source software, there would be less piracy!)

      The FUD meisters kept bringing up the one time costs of training people to use new software. The FUD meisters trotted out their favorite words. "Free Market" (as long as they control it). "Innovation" (now a much abused word).

      --

      Religion is the main cause of atheism.

    13. Re:Is there another clause by crucini · · Score: 1
      I get concerned when I see clauses such as those above when there is no corresponding clause for justifying Open source choice over proprietary.

      Lots of agencies and corporations have rules that sole-source contracts (contracts not let through competitive bidding) must be justified. And no, they don't have rules requiring justification of competitive bidding - it's assumed to be the default. Does that concern you also?
    14. Re:Is there another clause by sixdotoh · · Score: 1
      A well made and valid point. However there is of course the old debate of the cost of training people to use the open source stuff, although I think it has been established that it saves money in the long term.

      Also, how many taxpayers would know, and comprehend, the alternatives and would be vocal enough bring this issue up to the relevant people.

      You know, as much as there is an anti-establishment spirit among many of the geek/hacker culture, I think if they/we would actually do something about issues, such as writing congressmen, etc., changes could be made.

      --

      This post was brought to you by the number 584811 and the characters / and .

    15. Re:Is there another clause by dh003i · · Score: 1

      No, you dolt, they do whatever they can to make proprietary formats (like doc) so that other's can't use those formats (see DMCA), and so that any conversions from MS formats to non-MS formats are going to be lossy.

    16. Re:Is there another clause by hazem · · Score: 3, Insightful

      4. avoid the acquisition of products that do not comply with open standards for interoperability or data storage;

      I agree with you that this is one of the most important aspects of this bill. I like open source, but I think ALL software used by the government should store its data in an open and published format.

      Democracy requires free information. I detest the idea that information created and stored using a certain piece of software might not be accessible at a future date.

    17. Re:Is there another clause by Malcontent · · Score: 1

      " A well made and valid point. However there is of course the old debate of the cost of training people to use the open source stuff, although I think it has been established that it saves money in the long term."

      In the case of databases there is no retraining except for the DBAs. That's a very small number of relatively smart people to train.

      "Also, how many taxpayers would know, and comprehend, the alternatives and would be vocal enough bring this issue up to the relevant people."

      Some would. If the state is forced to justify it's reasoning then I am positive hundreds of people would read it and comment on it.

      --

      War is necrophilia.

    18. Re:Is there another clause by Malcontent · · Score: 1

      The law could pay for itself with the first widely deployed open source product.

      --

      War is necrophilia.

    19. Re:Is there another clause by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      At least Real Audio is somewhat cross platform. I can easily watch it on my Linux desktop, as opposed to Windows Media or Quicktime, which you *may* be able to view after a lot of configuration work.

    20. Re:Is there another clause by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because the justification will have to be made to PHB-style people, not technical people. To them most of these tools are seemingly identical.

    21. Re:Is there another clause by Smallpond · · Score: 1

      Thats it exactly. I doubt if the Texas lege cares whether they have the source code for the applications. The point of all of these "must use OSS" initiatives is to get control of the data. I've seen systems that make it impossible to export the data in any useful format, just to prevent you from ever upgrading to a competitor.

      An interesting compromise would be to allow proprietary software, but to require a complete published spec for the data format. Nothing like a good compromise to incense both sides!

      Now if we could just get state websites to stop putting up doc files....

    22. Re:Is there another clause by theLOUDroom · · Score: 1

      If you do not like the license you do not have to purchase and are free to find an alternative.

      Right, because you won't need access any data from your old system. You can just throw out all your company's information and start anew.

      --
      Life is too short to proofread.
    23. Re:Is there another clause by Martigan80 · · Score: 1

      provide justification whenever a proprietary software product is acquired instead of open source software;

      Don't forget that ignorance is a justification for purchasing proprietary software too. This is the government after all.

      --
      This SIG pulled due to lack of funding. (This damn war is costing too much!)
    24. Re:Is there another clause by BroncoInCalifornia · · Score: 1

      I agree. I destest the fact that our goverment information is kept in undocumented file formats that require a secret decoder ring from a particular supplier to access it.

      --

      Religion is the main cause of atheism.

  5. Texas agencies on mainframe by NTworks · · Score: 5, Informative

    I work as a computer operator for a datacenter which is mandated by Texas law, that all state agencies have to consider using our datacenter to outsource their IT, and provide proof they can do it cheaper.

    We have many mainframe agencies which spend millions in hardware and software licensing to IBM. We have one on a Sun E10k, and lots of smaller sun boxes, as well as P680 and P690 IBM 64bit mainframe-class AIX servers. A few Win2k clusters.

    Nobody uses linux or other open source operating systems.

    I could see the possibility of some of the clients migrating to a Linux solution running on the existing IBM s/390 and z/ mainframes, but this kind of thing would take years, and the beaurocracy is incredibly thick. Changing the -littlest- thing in the operation of these computer systems has to go through so many levels, it is truly ridiculous.

    1. Re:Texas agencies on mainframe by mAineAc · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Open Source software is not necessarily Linux. There are many Open Source programs that run on other oprerating systems.

    2. Re:Texas agencies on mainframe by BurKaZoiD · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I work as a computer operator for a datacenter which is mandated by Texas law, that all state agencies have to consider using our datacenter to outsource their IT, and provide proof they can do it cheaper.

      I work for a very large state of texas agency, in charge of IT acquisitions, and I've never heard of what you're referring to.

    3. Re:Texas agencies on mainframe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I assume the main reason why there's so much bureaucracy is because of computer-related ignorance. If so, couldn't you just update the systems and change from Windows/AIX to Linux/BSD and then lie? "The interface is different? Uh...that's Windows 2004."

    4. Re:Texas agencies on mainframe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      http://www.dir.state.tx.us/wtdroc/
      http://www.wtd roc.com

    5. Re:Texas agencies on mainframe by BurKaZoiD · · Score: 1

      Hmmmm...I apologize. I must have misunderstood what you were saying. I go through DIR to make all our purchases and to get quotes, and we recently had to file a new disaster recovery plan.

    6. Re:Texas agencies on mainframe by Eskarel · · Score: 1
      I don't doubt that this and many other organizations are home to a great deal of computer-related ignorance. However, this ignorance has absolutely nothing to do with the presence of said bureaucracy and probably little to do with the difficulty of getting things changed.

      The willingness of any organization to implement any change whatsoever, let alone a major one, is inversely proportional to the size of that organization. This is because the cost and complexity of such a change is directly proportional to the size of the organization. This is especially true of companies which provide a service rather than a product since the necessary down time to change anything not to mention any possible problems which will occur when it's finally implemented can cost them money and worse clients.

      For these reasons, most companies will see the cost of moving to Open Source or anything else for that matter, as, at least in the short term, higher than keeping the current system. Regardless of how much Microsoft or sun charges them, it looks better on this years budget to pay it than to change. Since people rarely get rewarded for savings which will eventually work out several years when their current budget is several million dollars in the red, noone really wants to change.

  6. The bill's discussion in the RM video by pgpckt · · Score: 4, Informative


    Discussion on this bill begins at 1:12:40 into the RM video.

    --
    Lawrence Lessig is my personal hero.
  7. Best tool for the job by rf0 · · Score: 2, Redundant

    Its nice to see OSS being pushed but it should be kept in mind that OSS isn't necessarily the best for every task. For example old Mainframes might be old, but they are reliable bugs are know and are good at what they do.

    M$ has a place on the desktop as if like most governments the machines are old but work anddo what the staff need. Everything has it place and that place is not necessarily the trash

    Rus

    1. Re:Best tool for the job by Rooktoven · · Score: 1

      Again, no one is mandating open source or saying it is always the best tool available. This is an argument for fairness that could also potentially save cash-starved state governments some money.

      --

      Acquiescence leads to obliteration
    2. Re:Best tool for the job by rusty0101 · · Score: 1

      The problem with your analogy is that in most cases, the software running on the mainframe was open source. In fact there are several cases where customers supplied mainframe manufacturers with bug fixes to the operating system.

      Note that the provision in the bill that states that a reason for chosing a proprietary solution over an open source solution does not exclude reasons such as "Our users are familiar with the operations of the proprietary solution and training them to use the open source solution will cost more than the price difference." and "The cost associated with converting all required documents (hardcopy) detailing operating procedures outweigh the ongoing costs of staying with the proprietary solution."

      Granted both "reasons" are contrived, and can easily be disproven, however the bill does not detail that a provable solid reason has to exist, just that one must be presented.

      Then again, IANAL

      -Rusty

      --
      You never know...
  8. Better PR... by nate+nice · · Score: 5, Funny

    ..Would be to advertize it as free software. What lawmaker wouldn't bite at that. "I saw to is we stopped wasting hard earned tax payer money when a free alternitive is available, God bless America!"

    --
    "If you are a dreamer, a wisher, a liar, A hope-er, a pray-er, a magic bean buyer ..."
    1. Re:Better PR... by Timesprout · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Read the article, they, as most people are aware the real cost is in support and maintenance. There is no such thing as free software. There may be no price tag attached to the aquisition of some Open Source software but it costs to support and maintain it. To say otherwise is highly disingenuous, if not down right untrue

      --
      Do not try to read the dupe, thats impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth
      What truth?
      There is no dupe
    2. Re:Better PR... by nate+nice · · Score: 1

      Most people are not even aware open source software exists. This is what law makers thrive on, ignorance. And yes, it is downright untrue to say it is "free", but these are politicians we are talking about! The point is, they could make the argument that they would spend the same on support and get the software for free, which is what they are doing....but the point of a politician is to put spin on it to make themselves appear to be saviors of the land.

      --
      "If you are a dreamer, a wisher, a liar, A hope-er, a pray-er, a magic bean buyer ..."
    3. Re:Better PR... by phippy · · Score: 1

      i think this is somewhat false. people who purchase software are in a lot of cases aware of OpenSource products, especially in a state that has a large budget to employ people to do in-depth evaluations of software.

      i think you'd be surprised how many states do use OSS and know why they chose it.

    4. Re:Better PR... by nate+nice · · Score: 1

      Oh, no doubt the people buying the software know what's going on, at least I hope so. They should obviously know the advantages and disadvantages of open source and commercial software. I was just making the point most tax payers/voters don't have a clue. Just like most people don't know of most usually independent, grass roots, independent movements. There are a ton of them I don't know about. I'm into computers, indie music, film, art and guitars but I'm sure there are great independent movements for many things that I don't have a clue about.

      From a political point of view though, these law makers have some great reelection ammo now considering everyone is looking to save money and in many cases open source software can save money, at least in the long run, if anyone is interested in the long run anymore.

      I'm not saying any facts about OSS, just the the political folk can really spin this. I'm sure they could convince voters that they will save the money on the license and the support costs for the next 4 years, even if that turns out not to be the case. 4 years from now no voter will be paying attention to that unless it's a complete disaster and if it ends up costing as bit too much, they will just cut another social program or something. It's what they do.

      --
      "If you are a dreamer, a wisher, a liar, A hope-er, a pray-er, a magic bean buyer ..."
    5. Re:Better PR... by Realistic_Dragon · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "There may be no price tag attached to the aquisition of some Open Source software but it costs to support and maintain it."

      Right, like Windows installs itself, runs flawlessly, and every time it breaks a little man from Microsoft pops out of the air beside your computer and fixes it for you.

      If you took the money you didn't spend on buying Windows and stashed it in a high yield investment account, it would probably cover paying a large percentage of your IT staff, especially since you could fire all the ones doing nothing but running around and rebooting crashed PCs and wiping spyware by having to reinstall the OS.

      --
      Beep beep.
    6. Re:Better PR... by An+Onerous+Coward · · Score: 1

      Good point. "Free software" is so easy to misinterpret because most listeners automatically think $0. "Open source" requires further explanation as well.

      Perhaps we could all start calling it "Freedom software." Unfortunately, it sounds a bit corny, and in a few months people would be asking why we haven't switched it back to "French software."

      Sigh. You just can't win.

      --

      You want the truthiness? You can't handle the truthiness!

    7. Re:Better PR... by PotatoHead · · Score: 2, Informative

      You know a large part of that maintenance cost comes from recurring license fees and forced upgrade schedules don't you?

      These two things combined with the intergrated nature of Microsoft software raise costs more than you would think.

      Servers that require CALs compared to servers that don't are another area to consider.

      Also, it seems that justification of software happens mostly at the initial stage. Once a company is "in" they have a lot of leverage across their products to get more money more often through "Upgrades".

      I believe this is what they are most afraid of. What happens when an upgrades triggers a large purchase with the "Consider Open Source" part active?

      Seems to me that analysis will lead to fewer upgrades and additional Cost of Ownership realizations that will not go in the proprietary industry favor...

      This is not dead yet in Oregon! Please take a moment to contact House Speaker Karen Minnis. She is uninformed, listening to the lobby as if it were god and sitting on the bill.

      If public opinion stays high, the issue will be heard.

      You can contact her:

      Speaker Minnis
      900 Court St. NE
      Room 269
      Salem, OR 97301
      Phn: 503-986-1200
      Fax: 503- 986-1201
      Email rep.karenminnis@state.or.us

      A phone call is best because you can ask someone the nice and hard questions directly and request a response.

      1. Why are Multnomah County residents being asked for additional taxes when obvious money saving bills like HB 2892 are being shelved?

      2. Texas is willing to consider the bill. They also see right through the industry lobby thing. Why can't Oregon do the same?

      3. How is it that proprietary software prices keep rising along with profit in the face of the worst high tech recession we have seen in years? Could it be the market is failing in this area? Should the State continue to support this by stalling legislation that will bring welcome competition to the state software marketplace?

      You can think of others...

      If you will forget, send an e-mail today. If you can remember --please do make that phone call.

      It will matter in Oregon.

  9. Affirmative Action for the Software Industry? by AlabamaMike · · Score: 5, Interesting

    As much as people hate it, Affirmative Action was a necessary policy in America. Now we must undertake a similiar policy in order to overcome the barriers erected by large software corporations. I'm sure some (if not most) of us have read the corp's reaction to policies such as this. I think that's to be expected. The majority (in this case, the one with the money is the majority) doesn't like it when the minorities get a fair shot at what they always saw as "their world." Bills such as the one in TX are going to be needed in order to restore a level playing field in the software world. Expect to hear much outcry from MS, IBM, Sun, and other large corps from this one. Don't expect this to pass ... IMO, the lobbyists will see to it that it never will.
    -A.M.

    --
    Pimpin' all the Karma Hoes!
    1. Re:Affirmative Action for the Software Industry? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bleh. Affirmative Action is a joke. It's odd that people think: Hey, here's person one. Here's person two. Person one is more fit for the job, but well, we haven't met our quota and person two is ______ nationality. Lets hire him.

      Firefighters. Did you know that many places the 'standards' for a woman firefighter are less than those of a man. Now, while you say 'they should be able to be firefighters too!' and I agree. I also believe that they should be able to do their job. If job requires a certain ammount of strength, endurance etc to get the job done, why would you lower that standard for some people? Especially in situations where it will cost lives.

      No the answer to giving people an equal chance isn't affirmative action. Not in jobs, not in getting into schools. It's investing more in education, so that everyone has a similar experience in K-12 education. Under no circumstances should some person be selected for a job simply because of their race. It's no different than denying them a job because of their race. Again America wants to fix everything the cheap and easy way. Don't want to look at the problem and actually fix it, lets just ducttape some half assed solution on there and hope it stays until we're out of office and somone else has to deal with this issue.

      OpenSource should be considered. -ALL- should be considered. But when the choice is made it should be the option that is going to increase productivity, be the cheapeast -overall- and not be a hassle to work with. I do believe they should be using software that saves in open standards, it allows greater mobility in changing products if you pick a bad one. Other than that, who cares if it's open source or proprietary. It should be chosen on the merits of the software itself.

  10. Here is the evaluation by dracocat · · Score: 5, Informative

    Sec. 2157.003. DETERMINING BEST VALUE FOR PURCHASES OF AUTOMATED INFORMATION SYSTEMS. "Best value" for purposes of this chapter means the lowest overall cost of an automated information system. In determining the lowest overall cost for a purchase or lease of an automated information system under this chapter, the commission or a state agency shall consider factors including:

    (1) the purchase price;


    Ok I think OSS has this one.

    (2) the compatibility to facilitate the exchange of existing data;

    This could definately be a problem. Depending on how the agencies' data is stored, especially since the assumption is that they are currently using Closed Sourse Software, it may be difficult to get the data out!.

    (3) the capacity for expanding and upgrading to more advanced levels of technology;

    I would definately argue OSS can win this one hands down.

    (4) quantitative reliability factors;

    I hope that by this they don t mean a report published by a software company about its reliability--because I don't remember the last time I read one of those for my OSS programs.

    (5) the level of training required to bring persons using the system to a stated level of proficiency;

    Doh... No matter what anybody says, this is my main gripe about most OSS software that I have used. Except for some exceptions, documentation is difficult to find, and User Interfaces were not well thought out. I think most OSS developers feel that once their software functions as they think it should, they stop! Again, maybe I have just had some bad experiences, but it seems like 90% of the OSS software I use falls under this description.

    (6) the technical support requirements for the maintenance of data across a network platform and the management of the network's hardware and software;

    Obviously OSS has this one beat.

    But the bottom line is that they agencies are only being told to do a TCO analysis before choosing software and that they have to consider OSS as well. Here is the real problem though. The person doing the TCO can do the analysis any way they want. So if somebody wasn't using OSS before, then when they go to anaylze the price/cost benifits they will simply use data that supports what they want to use.

    1. Re:Here is the evaluation by Malcontent · · Score: 1

      "Doh... No matter what anybody says, this is my main gripe about most OSS software that I have used. Except for some exceptions, documentation is difficult to find, and User Interfaces were not well thought out. I think most OSS developers feel that once their software functions as they think it should, they stop! Again, maybe I have just had some bad experiences, but it seems like 90% of the OSS software I use falls under this description."

      I don't think this is likely to be a problem with the types of porgrams the state is considering. The products a state govt is likely to use are apache, mysql, postgres, php, samba, iptables/ipfilter, openoffice etc. Each one of these software packages has excellant documentation as well as a slew of books on the shelves of your local bookstore.

      In most cases all you get with most MS software is a help file anyway.

      --

      War is necrophilia.

    2. Re:Here is the evaluation by Dr.+Photo · · Score: 1

      (2) the compatibility to facilitate the exchange of existing data;

      This could definately be a problem. Depending on how the agencies' data is stored, especially since the assumption is that they are currently using Closed Sourse Software, it may be difficult to get the data out!.

      Not necessarily: if closed data formats were impenetrable, nobody would bother with encryption; they'd just send their Top Secret messages as MS Word .doc files... :P

    3. Re:Here is the evaluation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      (2) the compatibility to facilitate the exchange of existing data;

      This could definately be a problem. Depending on how the agencies' data is stored, especially since the assumption is that they are currently using Closed Sourse Software, it may be difficult to get the data out!.


      By that logic, the CSS app fails to meet condition (2) and is automatically disqualified from future consideration.

  11. one change that should be made: by rumpledstiltskin · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The third requirement, that agencies justify user of proprietary software over open source, needs to be challenged. why not force the agencies to provide justification for their decision, rather than justification for one branch of options? if you force the agencies to provide justification for acquiring proprietary software, the pencil pushers in the agency would be more likely to choose open source, but for the wrong reason. I don't know about other people here in Texas, but I don't want my state agencies to choose an open source solution that might be worse than a proprietary one if the reason is they would have to do more work justifying the proprietary software. If you're going to add more work, apply it evenly so the best decision gets made.

  12. Weighing In by Saint+Stephen · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Open Source should not be "required". I can just imagine how some mid-level government manager would feel being forced to consider OpenOffice (for example) when he just wants to buy Office and be done with it -- word would start to circulate about his crappy experience, Open Source in general would suffer, and anti-OSS camp has more ammo.

    I get really scared when I start hearing people who believe in freedom so much they are going to force you to be free (at a metaphorical gunpoint). Just because *I* like that I can get workalike functionality of thousands of $$s of software, doesn't mean I should force people to use it. Free will rules. Of course, government should *want* to use free software anyway, to save our money. But don't force them.

    1. Re:Weighing In by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, if he wants Office, he can buy it himself.

      If your work says "Use Macs" do you go all pouty and whine? So why whinge if they say you must use OpenOffice? Do you think that maybe microsoft can argue their points themselves?

      The problem is that the barrier to entry for a new player is now so high that you HAVE to do this sort of thing.

      How about government not "force" Free Software purchased, just don't "enforce" copyright with the stuff they get?

      Government gets it free. Taxes are lowered, and the tax burden on the corporations will be redued.

      Why not?

    2. Re:Weighing In by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I get really scared when I start hearing people who believe in freedom so much they are going to force you to be free (at a metaphorical gunpoint).

      *cough* Iraq *cough*

    3. Re:Weighing In by The+Rabid+Walnut · · Score: 1
      I largely agree. There's a couple things associated with this that bother me:

      1) This would force the government to consider Open Source Software, but doesn't force them to consider Closed Source Software. If we were going to be forthright, shouldn't we require BOTH to be considered? If OSS is truly better than CSS, wouldn't it win anyway? This is our government - we should want it to operate as efficiently as possible, even if it doesn't support our little pet projects? As it stands, this is rather hypocritical.

      2) How do you prove that no appropriate OSS solution exists for a project? There are thousands, maybe millions, of OSS projects out there. This law requires you to maintain documentation that you unsuccessfully scoured the planet looking for OSS software, if you go with a closed source solution, as per section 3. How do you prove that you looked everywhere reasonable? And may god help you if a political opponent of your administration stumbles across an OSS solution that you missed. Even if it's a buggy, undocumented, unfinished program written in swahili found on an out-of-date server in Chile over a 2400 baud modem.

      3) Shouldn't section 3 also require an explanation when open source software is chosen over closed source too? This section does nothing but make it more work to go closed source. Actually, this could only work to the advantage of OSS, because each time a good, useful OSS package was found, the government would be required to make a report testifying to the fact.

      4)Sections 4 and 5 are too open to interpretation. I know that 90% of /. is going to applaud these sections be cause it "obviously" outlaws Windows and Office. But there is no clear definition of "avoid" - does this mean you can't acquire the software even if there is no comparable solution? What if the software violates these sections, but the offending module of the software can be turned off or removed? As written, I'd say that we still would be legally bound to "avoid" it, whatever that may mean. What if the product can save files in both XML and as a .doc file? Does that constitute enough support of open standards? Hell, with some not-so-fancy literary footwork, I could justify buying any software I can think of.

      Don't get me wrong - Open Source is mostly a good thing. But, the law shouldn't be stacked against software companies - there is still some superior CSS work out there. Just make it apply evenly to both OSS and CSS, and make the law explicit in what it intends to do.

    4. Re:Weighing In by PotatoHead · · Score: 1

      You have this wrong. Nothing is required at all save the consideration of Open Source software.

      Open Source software does not have full time paid lobbyists working the State for sales. Open Source is not *sold* it is used.

      Legislation like this basically says: "Before you spend our tax dollars on software, see if you can make the Open Source software work first."

      As for not forcing the government, that is a poor point of view as well. That is what we are supposed to do.

      You know, "By the People for the People?" Our government is what we make of it and that is how it is supposed to be. Seems the more time passes, the more people seem to be forgetting that.

      I *want* my government to work hard to save every dime they can; otherwise, I must pay more.

      BTW: This is not dead yet in Oregon. Please take a moment to contact House Speaker Karen Minnis. She is uninformed, listening to the lobby as if it were god and sitting on the bill.

      If public opinion stays high, the issue will be heard.

      You can contact her:

      Speaker Minnis
      900 Court St. NE
      Room 269
      Salem, OR 97301
      Phn: 503-986-1200
      Fax: 503- 986-1201
      Email rep.karenminnis@state.or.us

      A phone call is best because you can ask someone the nice and hard questions directly and request a response.

      1. Why are Multnomah County residents being asked for additional taxes when obvious money saving bills like HB 2892 are being shelved?

      2. Texas is willing to consider the bill. They also see right through the industry lobby thing. Why can't Oregon do the same?

      3. How is it that proprietary software prices keep rising along with profit in the face of the worst high tech recession we have seen in years? Could it be the market is failing in this area? Should the State continue to support this by stalling legislation that will bring welcome competition to the state software marketplace?

      You can think of others...

      If you will forget, send an e-mail today. If you can remember --please do make that phone call.

      It will matter in Oregon.

    5. Re:Weighing In by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I get really scared when I start hearing people who believe in freedom so much they are going to force you to be free (at a metaphorical gunpoint).

      *cough* Iraq *cough*


      That's completely different. The guns there are entirely non-metaphorical...

    6. Re:Weighing In by listen · · Score: 1, Flamebait

      Do you not understand?
      The government should PREFER open source software. They should NOT consider it just as good to go for proprietary software.

      This is not about equality. The point is:
      * govts need to stop wasting money on reimplementing things over and over.
      * govt. data needs to remain accessible and meaningful. Forever. This is a lot easier to do when you have no restrictions on your ability to analyze existing programs.
      * Anything the govt. funds (through its purchases) should be a public good, and available to the people who payed for it ( taxpayers) without discrimination.

    7. Re:Weighing In by theLOUDroom · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I get really scared when I start hearing people who believe in freedom so much they are going to force you to be free (at a metaphorical gunpoint). Just because *I* like that I can get workalike functionality of thousands of $$s of software, doesn't mean I should force people to use it. Free will rules. Of course, government should *want* to use free software anyway, to save our money. But don't force them.

      If you don't want to use free software, fine, but government information is public property. This means that is should be stored in a manner in which it will be accessible to ALL of the public.

      The government's business is not to support Microsoft, it is to provide the greatest possible benefit to the people of America.

      Look at it this way. Consider how much the gov't must spend a year on MS Office. If they were to use that money instead to hire programmers to actively develop and support OO for their needs, they would get a product better tailored to their needs and the rest of the country gets a great office suite for free.

      And don't try to say this is bad because it competes with industry/Microsoft. It is actually bad for the economy for the gov't to support MS if there is an alternative which creates more value for the same amount of money.

      Look, the gov't is special. They should be able to guarantee that they can retrive today's data in 100 years if they need to. They only way for them to do that is to have the source code for all the apps they use. You aren't obligated to be able to do that, so it doesn't really matter than much what software you use. You aren't storing any data that's my property.

      --
      Life is too short to proofread.
    8. Re:Weighing In by KagatoLNX · · Score: 1

      Look, the gov't is special. They should be able to guarantee that they can retrive today's data in 100 years if they need to. They only way for them to do that is to have the source code for all the apps they use. You aren't obligated to be able to do that, so it doesn't really matter than much what software you use. You aren't storing any data that's my property.

      This last bit is poignant for me. I just spent the last three days writing a script to pull data out of an old Leading Edge Word Processor format. A commercial conversion service is available here. Obviously a few hundred dollars is fine for a big business, but this particular organization is much like the government. It's funding comes from it community whose goal has nothing to do with the bottom-line but rather to further goodwill and such. Specifically, I did this as a favor for the secretary at a church. Equally poignant is the fact that this sofware was originally chosen because it was came with the computer and it functioned (in 1995). Of course, no attention was paid to how to stewarded your data (binary format, see ranting next paragraph; being pre-longfilename, it used index files to hold full names and simulated a hierarchy while really using a flat directory; the markup format in the file is ... obscure in the extreme).

      If only some forethought and work can be directed at the problem of easy access to data in the far future, I will not have to do this again. I had enough fun tearing apart a binary format, finding out that the data was chopped into blocks and out of order, find the ordering data, reorder the data, and tear apart the markup infrastructure of a decade old program.

      Finally, note that it's not even about data that's "my property" or such. This data is in the public domain. The public domain has taken a real beating lately and it is really too important than to be thought of as "the public's property". To the contrary, property is limiting in that it prevents use. Public domain is about not limiting use. Public domain literally means controlled by the people. Personal domain (a.k.a. property) means one person or entity exercises that control. Thus goverment property, public property, and public domain are three very different things. As such, public domain is not another form of property but rather something completely different.

      The trend that the data is in the public domain but the format is not is contrary to the spirit of public domain and directly interferes with thousands of years (read since the Roman Republic) of use, doctrine, and general concern for the intellectual welfare of the people. Of course, we have television now so we don't need to worry about any of that...

      --
      I think Mauve has the most RAM. --PHB (Dilbert Comic)
  13. you're not reading it right by phippy · · Score: 3, Informative

    it's not REQUIRING anything, except that OpenSource software be *considered*.

    1. Re:you're not reading it right by sheldon · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Open source software is already being considered. It's also being rejected.

      So now the OSS community wants to go one step forward in mandating, so they write up this bill which requires you to provide justification whenever you don't use open source software.

      Justification means paperwork. It also means a review committee most likely, what's the point of paperwork if nobody is going to read it?

      I know how government operates. I know how issues are spun. I know for a fact that if the bill stated justification must be provided when choosing open source software, the slashbots would be up in arms. You spin this as "consideration", and I'll point out the truth which is "mandating".

    2. Re:you're not reading it right by phippy · · Score: 1

      how is it mandating ? because the cost of the paperwork to justify buying proprietary is too high ? is that what your point is ?

      the truth is is that most (if not all) of the decisions involving software purchases at the state government level have to be justified as part of the evaluation process, opensource or NOT. there is no extra added overhead of paperwork. the provision in this bill is already satisfied by the purchasing requirements of the evaluating department.

    3. Re:you're not reading it right by jonkl · · Score: 1

      The language in the Texas bill re. 'justification' was removed.

      --
      Jon Lebkowsky jonl@polycot.com http://www.polycot.com
    4. Re:you're not reading it right by sheldon · · Score: 1

      "because the cost of the paperwork to justify buying proprietary is too high ? "

      Because the path of least resistance is using open source software.

      *THAT* is the point of using the justification phrasology in the bill. You are naive to believe otherwise.

      "there is no extra added overhead of paperwork"

      That is not the way this bill is worded.

    5. Re:you're not reading it right by phippy · · Score: 1

      no, you're not understanding me...with or without this bill, currently, state governements, at all levels of purchasing, have to give justification as to why they buy things, be it services or goods.

      this is happening right now.

      one glaring example is how equipment is bought for state-run buildings. you have air conditioner vendors 1, 2, and 3. each of them have their pros and cons, and not always the cheapest ones win. the future costs of maintaining them, the initial costs of purchase, the vendor companies future viability... these are all things that are considered, and the winning choice has to be justified. so basically the complaint that closed source has to be justified but opensource does not....it's a moot point. ANY product has to be justified in many (including Texas) states before purchased or implemented.

      the point of this bill and others like it is that OpenSource software is NOT given the consideration it should, for various reasons. one can imagine MANY reasons why apache or sendmail might not be suitable for a state-run office, and or why Exchange is unsuitable as well. the reasoning for choosing one over the other has to be justified already, whether this bill passes or not.

      this is NOT a "sneaky" way of requiring opensource, no matter how opponents of this bill want to try to spin it.

    6. Re:you're not reading it right by phippy · · Score: 1

      nope...it's there:

      http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/tlo/78R/billtext/ SB 01579I.HTM

  14. Still doesn't change the "squeaky wheel" dynamic.. by RyanFenton · · Score: 1

    A major goal of most governments is to spend as little as possible, while still providing all their minimal requirements. These new rules _should_ be something that matches quite well with open souce software, as they better allow the use of outside help in making a better product, and even better allows other agencies to help pool software resources to create something better for all the public.

    Unfortunately, the way appropriations work, right along with the philosophy of spending as little as possible - those agencies that do not spend the resources allotted to them stand a large chance of having their budgets cut, based on the perception that they don't *need* all the resources they were given last time. Those that spend slightly more than was allotted to them stand a larger chance of having their budgets raised rahter than be reformed.

    The cliche is, "the squeeky wheel gets the grease", and it is percieved as true by the heads of many government agencies, trying to communicate their need, while staying within the guidelines that permit their actions.

    So, even though it IS more beurocracy, and it does stand to take some choice away in some circumsances, this IS a set of rules that makes sense for what the goals of government are. Those agencies that want to spend the resources still will be able to... but they might just be able to find a better way to spend those resources this way, for the sake of everyone.

    Ryan Fenton

  15. Smoke and Mirrors by ipour · · Score: 3, Informative

    This is a good try for open source, but I worry this will just be its feel good legislation. The guts of the legislation is in 2054.114 (b), which states: For all new software acquisitions, a state agency shall:
    (1) consider acquiring open source software products in addition to proprietary software products;
    (2) except as provided by Subdivisions (4) and (5),
    acquire software products primarily on a value-for-money basis;
    (3) provide justification whenever a proprietary
    software product is acquired instead of open source software;
    (4) avoid the acquisition of products that do not
    comply with open standards for interoperability or data storage;
    and
    (5) avoid the acquisition of products that are known to make unauthorized transfers of information to, or permit
    unauthorized control of or modification to the state government's
    computer systems by, parties outside the control of the state
    government.

    Just focus on (1) and (3) - this is legalese for writing two paragraphs to say why you are selecting the proprietary system you want to purchase.

    The real issue for open source over proprietary is in the specifications for the bid, not in the selection process. Unless the open source product is responsive to what is in a bid, it doesn't need to be selected, no matter what this law says. In other words, if the bid solicitation is for a system that needs to meet the technical requirements of already existing products, it will be very difficult to meet those requirements for anything else.

    Thus, if you have an IBM system, it will be diffcult to switch to Sun, or from Microsoft to something else. Most state IT departments are tied in to specific product lines, and it's like pulling teth to get them to change.

    Bottom line, this will take years to have any significant impact. But as with any legislation, you need to start somewhere.

    1. Re:Smoke and Mirrors by praksys · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Just focus on (1) and (3) - this is legalese for writing two paragraphs to say why you are selecting the proprietary system you want to purchase.

      Actually this is more important than you realize. If you are innocent of a crime then of course providing a solid alibi is the best way to get yourself off the suspects list. If you are guilty of a crime then providing a false alibi is often the worst thing you can do. Saying nothing at all is usually better. Why? Because as soon as you say something the police have something to work on, and at the very least will probably be able to show that you lied.

      Likewise there is no way to attack the government's reasons for acting if they do not tell you want those reasons were. A law like this effectively forces beurocrats to give an alibi. If they are faking it, then critics will have something to work on.

    2. Re:Smoke and Mirrors by mcsuper5 · · Score: 1
      Thus, if you have an IBM system, it will be diffcult to switch to Sun, or from Microsoft to something else. Most state IT departments are tied in to specific product lines, and it's like pulling teth to get them to change.
      Actually,
      (4) avoid the acquisition of products that do not comply with open standards for interoperability or data storage;
      argues against the use of propriety formats. This prevents them from being locked into one vendor. If you want to save a document in a propriety format, say an MS Office XP Word document, then MS would have to make the format available to the public, so that a competitor could read/write that format as well. It could conceivably force MS to release the formats they use if MS doesn't want lose their business, or the gov't could simply save their files as text/rich text.
  16. Another type of law by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    I'd like to see a state submit a bill that bans proprietary file formats (i.e. Word, Excel) and communication protocals (i.e. File and Printer Sharing, COM) that lock you in and make you dependent on one vendor. Even if there was little chance that the bill would pass, I'd like to see Microsoft exposed for the greedy, anti-consumer monopolist that they are when they turn out in force to try to kill the bill. Microsoft would demonstrate how they want you to become completely dependent on them so you have no freedom to choose your CPU architecture, operating system or vendor. They only care about their revenue stream and don't give a shit about what's in your best interest, only theirs

    They would be in a catch-22, where either they choose to fight it and damage their reputation, or let it pass and be forced to open up and document their file formats and protocols.

    Microsoft's in a similar catch-22 with enforcing their licenses with audits. Either they allow piracy and lose money, or aggressively attack piracy to boost their revenue and piss off companies that then move to Linux, reducing their income, market share and mindshare.

    I love it...

  17. Affirmative Action for OSS is an insult. by Alethes · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Affirmative Action is saying that the group benefiting from the program would not be able to acheive their goals without help from the government. In the case of race and schools, it's saying that those races aren't smart enough to get into the college of their choice. In the case of business, it's saying those races are incapable of succeeding on their own. In the case of software, it's saying that the software will never be able to be up to par enough to compete against proprietary software on its own.

    If you were a ten year old playing basketball against a 20 year old, would you be more proud of yourself for winning the game if that other person was in a wheelchair, or if they were in good physical condition? It may be a more "fair" game, but the reward and satisfaction is minimal.
    Is that how you want to win?

    I sure hope OSS is given a chance to compete without being belittled by legislation that proposes to "level the playing field" by handicapping the competition. This legislation will only alienate the companies (IBM, Sun, Oracle) that have supported OSS with their commercial leverage, and make these OSS projects feel dependent on the government for their survival and success.

    1. Re:Affirmative Action for OSS is an insult. by LX.onesizebigger · · Score: 4, Funny
      This legislation will only alienate the companies (IBM, Sun, Oracle)...

      So what you're saying is, we're going to see closed source supremacist movements? The Closed Code Clan? Interesting.

      --
      I for one welcome our new SCOviet Russian overlords to whom all our base are belong.
    2. Re:Affirmative Action for OSS is an insult. by gonzo67 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I love when people spout off on things they THINK they know, but have no real clue!! AA is simply a requirement that a group/business/school/etc that wish to recieve FEDERAL Government money reflect the community they are in if possible. This means that if you are in El Paso, Texas, employ 1000 peopl and none are Hispanic, you are not reflecting the community. If you have 10 openings come up(none are specialized) and still do not hire any Hispanics, it is apparent you are purposefully not hiring Hispanics (Again, change groups depending on you location). However, if you are a Nuclear Power facility, and there are only 3 applicants qualified as Nuclear Engineers, you are likely to hire one of those 3 regardless of their demographic because of the highly specialized nature of the job. Businesses/Schools have made the goals of AA into "quotas" to avoid responsibility for actually being diverse!

  18. hmm interesting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If it passes, I wonder how this will affect Microsoft's anti-linux strategy, after all it will be more difficult for Microsoft to convince companies that windows based products are a "better" choice when you have a pretty large base of linux machines running your government.

  19. Trolling is where you say it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Walk into a Glasgow pub and say "why aren't you wearing your skirts?"

    Go into a Jeish mosque and say "Who's up for a bacon Butty?"

    Got to George W Bush and say "Has donald STILL got his hand up your ass?"

    Saying them here = opinion

    Saying them in the plasces I've put = trolling

    It MAY be an opinion, but it could just be as much to get a flamewar started, pick fights, etc. THAT is TROLLING.

    Thank you for listening

    1. Re:Trolling is where you say it. by Uber+Banker · · Score: 2, Insightful

      So should all people agree with each other, so as not to cause any potential trouble?

      I disagree with the opinion expressed by MisterFancypants (and agree more with Rooktovin's reply above) but I cannot prove definately (note I cannot, yet, doesn't mean I can't in the furute with more thought, or someone else can), because whichever thought-process I use for this problem, the result can change depending on assumptions used at the beginning, I just get a preference based on prefered assumptions and behaviour.

      This is 'Slashdot: news for nerds, stuff that matters' not 'Sheep-dot: Linux is good, because that is geek-cool'.

    2. Re:Trolling is where you say it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm sorry, each word was undserstood. it was just the sentences that passed me by there.

      Do you want to try again?

    3. Re:Trolling is where you say it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      An agressive reply, posted as AC?

      Who's afraid to express their opinions?

      Are you afraid of what others think you are? Ashamed of yourself? No self esteem?

    4. Re:Trolling is where you say it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Uh, how about the response ---

      I don't have an account

      Whaddaya think?

    5. Re:Trolling is where you say it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > undserstood

      que?

    6. Re:Trolling is where you say it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      An agressive reply, posted as AC?

      Who's afraid to express their opinions?

      Are you afraid of what others think you are? Ashamed of yourself? No self esteem?
      ..... Thus sayeth the AC.

  20. Open Source Bill by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Funny

    Whois Open Source Bill? Cowboy Neal's boyfriend?

  21. This would be a "good thing". by cornice · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Here's why. With all the DMCA, Super DMCA and software patent legislation floating around it would be nice to have some open source laws on the books. Maybe some conflicts in legislation might help some law makers to see how these laws impact open source. "What do you mean we can't use our XYZ software anymore?" "What do you mean we can only get an update for XYZ software from a foreign FTP site?"

  22. mod. up. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Alethes is right.

    Affirmative Action == Racism == Evil.

  23. Silly! by yuggler · · Score: 1

    This is just silly! This is just as bad as forcing Texas to use Wintel products. The whole concept of Open Source rests on the idea of voluntary conscent. Can anyone give me a moral justification why this proposal is better than one where Wintel is substituted for Open Source?

    1. Re:Silly! by Pierce · · Score: 1

      This does not require that they use Open Source, only that they give consideration to it.

  24. Support for "not free" software by lpret · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Yes, but you'll need support regardless of whether you use OSS or proprietary (read: costs money). So I think that "support is needed" is a weak point against OSS and should be cancelled out by the support needed for proprietary.

    Trust me, a friend of mine's company decided to go with an Oracle DB and was talking about how it would let him do all this stuff out of the box, etc. I was working on a project of the same scale and used PostgreSQL. Needless to say, we both had consultants hired to implement the same type of system -- both charged about the same (my OSS guy was cheaper -- thanks Rich!) but we weren't out 700,000 for the Oracle stuff.

    --
    This is my digital signature. 10011011001
  25. Lockin by crucini · · Score: 1

    That's pretty naive. Whenever a corporation or government invests in an application, they are locked in. They face a nontrivial cost to migrate to a different application. It's true even for word processors and other desktop software, but it's especially true for accounting systems, payroll systems, and other enterprise software. The threat of lockin is very real and is a major factor in IT management decisions. Almost every large IT department is maintaing some aging crappy applications that they'd like to be rid of, but the switching costs are prohibitively high.

    1. Re:Lockin by Timesprout · · Score: 1

      Just because its expensive and a lengthy, difficult a pain in the ass process does not mean an organisation does not have the option to go down that path. How would OSS ever gain market share at the enterprise level if they could not ?? My original point about a fair unbiased choice stands. It will be every bit as expensive to switch from a poor OSS choice as from a poor proprietary one.

      BTW offtopic but whoever modded my original post redundant is a twat :-)

      --
      Do not try to read the dupe, thats impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth
      What truth?
      There is no dupe
  26. The government is a customer.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No, this isn't a company coming along and manipulating the market, nor is this a movement forcing change on the market. Such laws are the best example of market forces at work - the largest customer has said "This is what is important to our State" and as a customer; they have the free-market right to do so. The customer is always right. Articulation of the will of a customer, is the first step in making an informed choice, and choice is what the free market is all about. The government is a customer just like any other.

    Any customer has a right in the free market to consider and choose based on their priorities what is the best solution. These priorities vary from person to person and project to project. Som might prefer a technical comparison. Some might value money more. Some might put a premium on quality. Some might place security above all other considerations.

    A government articulates their preference through the legislature as such laws as this bill can become, The message is unequivocable - this is what we prefer for State usage and these are the reasons for our choice. The legislature with such rules communicates to employees what is desirable and what is not and what considerations must be made when purchasing software products. Government employees often have to subsume their personal preferences to the law of the land, and what the people, through their elected representatives arbitrate is important. Moreover, they must do so with a brilliant smile! (That's the civil part of civil servant, aye?)

  27. improper analogy by dh003i · · Score: 1

    This isn't affirmative action for FOSS. This is requiring them to consider FOSS and provide justification if they don't use it. It does not require them to give any additional preference to FOSS over proprietary software.

  28. Hey, FUCKTARDS!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It is for *considering* open source, not *requiring* open source. Big difference!

  29. bullshit by dh003i · · Score: 2, Insightful

    This is not affirmative action. This is simply a bill which requires government officials to consider using FOSS and justify their reasons for not using it. It does not handicap proprietary software relative to FOSS. It simply requires these guys to consider FOSS.

    It is in no way analagous to affirmative action. It is analagous to requiring that colleges look at all of the applications sent to them, and not throw applications in the trash if "African American" is checked off next to race.

    1. Re:bullshit by stubear · · Score: 1

      No, this is very similar to Affirmative Action in that to acquire proprietary software one would have to submit in writing a justification for doing so. No such justification would be required for considering and acquiring open source software. In many ways this is worse than AA in that laxzy IT admins might just go with OSS software simply because they don't want the extra hassle of writing a justification for software they'd rather be using.

    2. Re:bullshit by dh003i · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Of course a justification for not using FOSS would have to be provided. Any time you choose a more expensive solution over a cheaper one, you should have to justify that choice. Duh. Your governor has to get from point A to point B. If he chooses to rent a McLaren F1 using OUR tax dollars, as opposed to using a Volkswagon, naturally he should have to justify that decision.

  30. Affirmitive Action is an true injustice. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm what is labeled a minority and I disagree with it. What AA gives me is product made by someone who is not qualified for the job. I would hate to be medically treated by someone who was hired simply to fulfill a quota (even if they were the same race as I), and not because they were the best available.

    You need to read Atlas Shrugged.

  31. Hey Dess by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Your comment
    http://www.immortaldog.net/troll1.html
    v iolated the
    http://www.immortaldog.net/troll2.html
    poste rcomment
    http://www.immortaldog.net/troll3.html
    compression filter
    http://www.immortaldog.net/troll4.html
    tr y less whitespace
    http://www.immortaldog.net/troll5.html
    and/or less repetition
    http://www.immortaldog.net/troll6.html
    Comment aborted.

    I talked to j00 a bit ago on #trollkore. thought you guys (any girl trolls out there?) might find these funny

  32. My favourite line: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Senator to BSA guy: "Sir, have you read this bill?" (about 1:32)

  33. what do OSS developers have to worry about then? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The same question works in reverse. If open source _is_ the best tool, why should it's makers lobby for legislation forcing it's consideration/use?

  34. correction: the hearing was on a substitute bill by chip+rosenthal · · Score: 5, Informative

    I am Sheriff of the EFF-Austin Open Source Posse and coordinator for our efforts on SB 1579. I want to offer some quick corrections to what is being discussed.

    The main problem is that a lot of people are discussing the content of and materials about the bill as originally introduced. In the legislative process, that is often an initial bid just to get the discussion going. It is not uncommon for bills to be amended--or even completely substituted--as they go through the process. That is what has happened here.

    Sen. Carona, the author of SB 1579, offered up a complete substitute. It has been accepted by the committee, replacing the original text. Therefore, the bill as originally written is off the table.

    The article links to my report on the committee hearing. In that report you'll find the complete text of the one-paragraph substitute, along with the reasons why EFF-Austin supports it.

    The substitute is significantly less sweeping in scope than the original. It is still valuable, and it is a great opening to see more open source in Texas government. In Thursday's hearing Sen. Carona stood strongly behind this bill, and stated that he planned to be back next legislative session with even stronger measures.

    Our wiki page has been updated with the latest information on SB 1579. Our sb1579 mailing list (subscribe directions on the wiki page) is the best way to stay informed on this particular issue.

    Thanks to everybody who has supported the effort to promote open source software in Texas state government.

  35. Open Source Evangelism... Closed Source News Audio by Red+Storm · · Score: 1

    Ya know... I always find it rather ironic that when there is news about open source software and whatnot, most of the time the audio provided, if available, is closed source. Real Audio, Windows Media et al.

    It would be cool if there were more open source audio streams for this kind of news...

    --
    ---- Fight to protect your right to keep and arm bears! ummmm... ya I think that's right....
  36. Minimalizing Civil Rights struggle? by sheldon · · Score: 1

    Your post completely minimalizes the contributions of men such as Martin Luther King Jr., Susan B. Anthony and many others who have struggled for Civil Rights in America.

    Free Software written by a bunch of rich white boys is not in the least bit similar to the struggles that have taken place in the United States with regards to obtaining equal opportunity.

    Your post is insulting and insensitive.

  37. most important for schools! by rjnagle · · Score: 3, Informative

    I have mixed feeling about these kind of bills, because truthfully it's impossible to impose computer solutions from above. If people weren't going to consider open-source solutions anyway, then they don't need to be cajoled to do so.

    The only exception I see is for the educational system (the universities, school districts). Because Dell and Compaq/HP are all located within Texas (as well as Apple in Austin), it's a foregone conclusion that Texas will use proprietary solutions, whether it be on the desktop or on the backend databases or servers.

    People I talk to in Texas education (excluding higher education) don't even consider open source as an option. Many students are taught in class how to use MS Word, Photoshop, Powerpoint, and that is seen as a desirable thing. Never mind that comparable software solutions exist, and that the money could be better spent on other things (teachers, etc). Teachers don't see that because they don't have to pay for these things. Instructional technologists don't see this because often the prices are discounted for learning institutions (which I suppose is good, but at what cost: why are we creating future customers for Adobe and Microsoft?)

    There is something to the argument that learning an application teaches students the basic concepts of spreadsheets, etc which can be applied towards comparable applications. But when comparable solutions exist (and they do), schools need to do more than provide the training so that students grow up and become good Microsoft customers.

    As long as open source solutions are not mandated, I see nothing wrong with making technology planners have to investigate open source solutions before submitting their budgets.

    --
    Robert Nagle, Idiotprogrammer, Houston
    1. Re:most important for schools! by RdsArts · · Score: 1

      Not to be blunt, but teaching Office, TODAY, is better then teaching OpenOffice the way it is taught.

      Follow me here, I have a point.

      Office is not taught as "here is a problem, reason out the logic, find a solution." It is taught as "you get result A by clicking buttons X, Y, and Z." Nothing more, nothing less.

      Most people working with Office who move from one version to the next are lost until they relearn where to click, assuming they move things.

      To make OSS a solution in schools would take a reworking of the teaching process, and THAT is why professors will not consider it.

      Until you change how things are taught, you will not be able to use anything BUT Office in the class room. And considering how little the average teacher makes, do you think they want to change anything about what they're doing right now?

      Just my 2 cents, do with them what you will.

  38. Re:Still doesn't change the "squeaky wheel" dynami by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You must not have ever worked for a government agency. I used to work for the US Federal Government. In my experience, Government Agencies and their employees are not inerested in minimizing costs. They are more interested in maintaining the status quo, and increasing budgets if possible.

    Cutting your expenses means that your budget for next year will get cut. This is a very bad thing in Goverment.

  39. Re:correction: the hearing was on a substitute bil by chip+rosenthal · · Score: 2, Informative

    Ooops! The parent story did not link to the hearing report. It actually links to extrameous info.

    Ignore that. Read the hearing report instead.

  40. Re:correction: the hearing was on a substitute bil by ipour · · Score: 1

    A link to the substitute would be helpful - I didn't see one on the legislative website (http://www.capitol.state.tx).

  41. budget by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I live in Texas and I am pretty sure that this bill is proposed largely to try and combat the large amounts of money that we don't have. The state legislature has proposed spending more than they have, so now htye have to save a little money wherever they can, i.e. by not paying large amounts of taxpayer money to M$.

    Whether or not this will help any remains to be seen...

    --SpookyBob

  42. OpenOffice? PDFs? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    Nobody uses linux or other open source operating systems.

    How about OpenOffice? I hear that there is a version for Windows now, but I don't know much about it.

    How about people setting goofy permissions on acrobat files, such as by disabling text copy and/or printing?

    The interoperability problem is with the apps. All the OSes have TCP/IP these days. Remember when you needed the Trumpet DLL to telnet from a Windows box?

    These days, the big government issues include trying to get MS Word doc files with tables and graphics into html without breaking interoperability features (such as font size overrides), and making sure that overzealous employees don't turn off copy and printing on stuff that other people have to fill out.

  43. Sure, this'll work. by the+gnat · · Score: 2, Interesting

    For those of you who think that this bill has anything better than a snowball's chance in hell, I proudly present: the Texas Republican Party Platform.

    These are not reasonable people. Don't get me wrong; I'm too conservative to be a good Democrat, and I dislike Nader just as much as the Texas GOP. I don't even hate Bush (though I have no respect for most of the rest of the administration, other than Powell). There are actually a couple of points in the platform that are reasonable enough. However, those fruitcakes embody just about every liberal nightmare, and they scare the living shit out of me. They're like John Ashcroft on methamphetamines. (Yo, Texans: no offence; we have theocratic lunatics in WA state as well.)

    Assholes like this are why I didn't change my voter affiliation years ago. The chances of them even understanding any of the technical issues involved, let alone lending a sympathetic ear, are simply pathetic.

    1. Re:Sure, this'll work. by thogard · · Score: 1

      Remember that policy was from 2000, things have changed.

      What I don't understand is how any self respecting male Texan could vote for a male cheerleader for a public office.

    2. Re:Sure, this'll work. by the+gnat · · Score: 1

      Remember that policy was from 2000, things have changed.

      Ummm. . . their biggest star got elected? If anything I'd expect them to be less moderate.

      What I don't understand is how any self respecting male Texan could vote for a male cheerleader for a public office.

      Or Mississippian - that was Trent Lott's main activity at Ole Miss.

  44. ps. by phippy · · Score: 1

    in addition, in those rare cases where states or departments do not need to make publicly available it's purchasing/implementation justifications, any extra effort made to provide this justification is not the fault of this bill, it's the fault of the operating department or state agency.

  45. public vs. private money by timothy · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Money taken from me in the form of taxes (and the state of Texas has gotten quite a bit from me in the form of sales taxes in the years I lived there) has a different set of responsibilities attached than money being spent by a private enterprise. General Welfare, all that.

    The thing about using open source code, and in particular when necessary paying for improvements to it, is that it's hard to see when this does *not* benefit the general welfare, assuming that the State in its usual infinite wisdom does not care to save / not spend other people's money in the first place.

    Given that government agencies (hey, same is true at large corporations) like to spend money (and face disincentives to not spend at least up to their alloted budgets), let's say they're going to spend the same total money for particular tasks on either a) proprietary software + customization / integration and supportor b) Freely available software + customization / integration and support. That may be fanciful (despite optimism and propaganda on both sides), but I think it's actually a conservative guess.

    At the end of the day / project / whatever, there's some code (still in existence) and whatever additions have been made to it. If there are additions that are somehow tied to the state government itself (ties to certain databases or weird data formats, etc) and they're modular enough, there could even be some cross-project advantages.

    Also, one key advantage I've not noticed anyone mention in this thread is the fact that open source code (whether the FSF calls it Free or not) can be audited and justified a lot more easily than closed source apps. For one thing, I'd like to see tax-funded software be aggressively bid on; if code is open by policy, then improving it etc can be chased after by programmers / small software firms. It doesn't have to mean switching entire software systems ...

    timothy

    --
    jrnl: http://tinyurl.com/c2l8yr / foes: http://tinyurl.com/ckjno5
  46. Re:correction: the hearing was on a substitute bil by chip+rosenthal · · Score: 1

    Right, the substitute has not been posted to the legislative web site yet. That's why I'm referring people to my report on the hearing. The one-paragraph substitute is included there.

  47. Re:what do OSS developers have to worry about then by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    well, the worry is at a societal level, because not everyone who is in some job position does a good job, after all, regardless of the "best tools" available, free or not. or are you now willing to idealize government bureacracies into "systems architect" level omniscience and knuthian wisdom?

    yeah, me neither.

  48. Re:Still doesn't change the "squeaky wheel" dynami by RyanFenton · · Score: 1

    You must not have ever worked for a government agency. I used to work for the US Federal Government. In my experience, Government Agencies and their employees are not inerested in minimizing costs. They are more interested in maintaining the status quo, and increasing budgets if possible.


    That's why I said that the goal of the government itself was to reduce costs. As in at the highest levels - that's what the politicians try for. The unfortunately competing goals of it's agencies are to increase their own budget, as you say. But the goal of the elected government is still to give an effective return on taxes and instilled power. Even if by structure they cannot do this.

    Ryan Fenton
  49. Nail in the coffin by Stonent1 · · Score: 2, Funny

    avoid the acquisition of products that are known to make unauthorized transfers of information to, or permit unauthorized control of or modification to the state government's computer systems by, parties outside the control of the state government

    Hmm would that be anything with XP or .NET in it's name?

  50. Lets bring this up by PotatoHead · · Score: 1

    after the legislation passes ok?

    (Heh Heh)

  51. speaking of expensive database licenses ... by timothy · · Score: 1

    Just about a year CHiPs were stopping the shredders in California over a $95 million deal with Oracle in which evidently far, far more licenses than were strictly necessary were purchased by the state.

    You don't generally get $85 million kickback-smelling deals with free software. Is it possible? Yes, or at least it could be if companies like Red Hat (or the old incarnation of VA Software :)) were the size of companies like Oracle and Microsoft. But for the immediate future, using open source means never having to say "You're Busted!"

    --
    jrnl: http://tinyurl.com/c2l8yr / foes: http://tinyurl.com/ckjno5
  52. Err, see how fast you can lose $10 million? by timothy · · Score: 1

    Sorry, I guess both prices listed should have been $95 million -- but if you give $10 to the GNOME or KDE folks, it won't disappear quite so useless :)

    tiothy

    --
    jrnl: http://tinyurl.com/c2l8yr / foes: http://tinyurl.com/ckjno5
  53. TX is in red ink , why not cut the fat? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This recession is "good for linux".

  54. It will never happen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It will never happen. The Senate is controlled by a Sith Lord.

  55. OSS to stall the world economy ? by stock · · Score: 3, Interesting
    > Obviously these states aren't considering the long-term results of Open Source Software and the effects on the economy, as more and more software developers are put out of jobs in favor of using free (as in beer) code.
    >
    > OSS is an OK idealist idea, but in practice what it will do is completely stall the world economy.

    The world economy is not stalled by OSS, i don't buy that. OSS is just a tool. Proprietary Software in the good days was also used as a tool/aid in the business process. Its only after large software vendors during the .com boom made proprietary software its own goal.

    Next microsoft got their dominance on the complete IT software market. The latest remarkable action of them was introducing License 6.0, To me that is the main reason the IT industry is on a dead-end now. Like its parked inside a dead alley.

    Another point for the stubourn stalling economy right now, is lack of trust and confidence in the current president of the USA. Not only inside the USA but also in the rest of the world people just don't know whats going to happen. So why would they show confidence and trust in the current president, the economy of the USA and hence the global economy?

    Now how can a free or almost free thing like OSS make any influence on the economy? M$ seems to have major problems? Well if they do, then i think License 6.0 is a far more important reason as OSS.

  56. Crucial difference between this and Affirmative by MobyDisk · · Score: 1

    Affirmative Action REQUIRED a percentage of peopel to be of a certain race. This is where Affirmative Action is a problem. The bill proposed here does not require that any percentage of software be open-source. It requires that they be considered. In effect, this bill does nothing except force people to open their eyes a bit. If open-source really is better, then this is all that is necessary.

  57. But they are NOT doing it NOW, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I can't think of any shop even capable of installing and evaluating Novell and Lotus, let alone did a side by side comparison when coughing up for MS licencing 6.

    Capability for OSS is probably even lower.

    Putting hand on heart, these bozos do not really try to evaluate alternative. In terms of financial probity, those side by side matrix's are not done

    Gartner made noises about IIS, but did anyone do Apache studies - nope.

    Anyone bitchin because word.docs near double in size in the next release - no.

    It may be that legislation is needed so diversity is mandated - 1% of IT budget seems right.

    These guys need to learn proper evaluation techniques - not bulk fabricated 'oh our users will be lost'

    Just make sure these justifications are published.

  58. Re:They love these things (what a country) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Only in America would you have to pass a law to get something for free instead of paying for it.

    "Senator, these both do the same thing, except the MicrosCrap software costs $3,000 per CPU."

    "Yes, but MicrosCrap donated $50,000 to my campaign fund, and sends hookers with me on fishing trips."

  59. Not quite by Quila · · Score: 1

    There is no OSS equivalent to Photoshop if you are designing for print. While Gimp works great for the web, it can't do print.

    Obviously, OpenOffice should be used for all of the MS Office applications. It doesn't have a spell checker, but then the students should be learning to spell and proof on their own, right?

  60. Re: Texas agencies... by js7a · · Score: 1

    Yes, but can you Lojack the Democrats?