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ATI Radeon 9800 Pro vs. NVidia GeForce 5900
HardcoreGamer writes "Today ATI shipped its Radeon 9800 Pro 256 MB DDR-2 card in time for E3 and nVidia announced the NV35-based GeForce 5900 which will be available in June. Early tests seem to say that while nVidia edges ahead of ATI in specific areas, overall ATI still has the better card. The caveat is that the next generation of DirectX 9-based games (like Doom 3 and Half-Life 2, demonstrated with ATI at E3) will truly determine which is the better card. Lots of coverage at PC Magazine, PC World, The Register (ATI) (nVidia), ExtremeTech, InternetNews, and Forbes/Reuters. Either way, at $450-$500, serious gamers are about to get another serious dent in their wallets."
Just a small note, but one that's been bothering me with all of these reviews: Not all 'next generation' games are 'dx9.' Though the new cards are dx9, many games (coincidently, most of the best games) use OpenGL. Unfortunately, it's much easier to incorrectly call Doom3 a dx9 game than to cite the OpenGL extensions (like shaders) that are used.
(Also, I'll note that Doom3 may be technically a DirectX9 game because its sound and input MAY use it, but in the context that people have been talking about dx9 games, it is still incorrect.)
My basis is being in a zone with about 20
other people with a high GHz and Mbyte machine
and see if the card allows the graphics without
slowing down the game.
Is DetrimentalFiend correct when he says that only parts of doom3 may be dx9? The rest would in fact be openGL correct?
What we see depends on mainly what we look for. -- John Lubbock Now search for that bug slave!
I'm afraid until ATI starts producing better Linux drivers, I'll have to stick with nVidia's cards for the time being. nVidia has really gotten their act in gear as of late and their latest drivers work great for me under Linux. I see on ATI's website that their drivers don't even support XFree 4.3 yet. Weeeeakk! :)
ATI is starting to try but has anyone tryed ATIs drivers and compared them, both fetaure-wise, performance-wise and stability-wise with the NVIdia ones ?
so unless /. started covering HW 99% focused on MS platforms the duel is a non issue :-) Nvidia wins by K.O.under linux, and under even BSD :-) ...
I know a Z-Buffer demands that you double the memory used so I was wondering if anyone knows if that doubles the video memory or if there is a special memory unit for hidden surface removal that the z-buffer makes use of. In this case, it would mean that you actually have 128MB of video memory and 128MB z-buffer. Anyone know?
"If you are a dreamer, a wisher, a liar, A hope-er, a pray-er, a magic bean buyer
I bought an 9700 All in Wonder and it produces 'waves' on any resolution under 85hz. This seems to be a common problem with the 9700 while searching for google groups. Is this common with all ATI cards?
I have to agree. As long as their not shit, don't complain. I'm not a Open Source fanatic. Sure I use an Open Source OS. Doesn't mean eveything has to be open source. I'm sure most of you can agree, which on would you choose the one that works, or the one that works well. Though I don't know why they can't release the specs to the card so Open Source Drivers can be made.
I bought my first 3D card from canopus because it had 6 meg. It was the absolute best 3DFX card available. It cost around $250 at the time. It was a sweet card but within 6 months a better and cheaper card came out and I decided I would never buy the latest and greatest card again. My rule of thumb is to stay 2 generations behind the best and you will have a card that can play any game out there. This may change as soon as a DX9 game comes out but I really can't see a game company "require" anything greater than a DX7 card or they wil really linit their audience....
Zoid.com
Actually, alot of times the "beta" hardware with the "beta" drivers runs FASTER than the final product.
:)
Hardware: The problem lies in that the "beta" hardware is carefully crafted and selected so that it lies in a very high yield of the manufacturing build. Later on, when mass production starts you have to clock things down and tone things down in general so you get a nice output yield. Otherwise you will run into the problem Nvidia already did with the 5800 Ultra, they tried to make the cards run like the "Beta" cards did, and nearly got NO cards that worked when trying to manufacture.
Software Drivers: Beta drivers can generally run slower, usually when extra debug info is turned on. However, when drivers are going to pre-release sites, alot of times they are running as fast as they can and are even tweaked to be more unstable just to get better performance... Also tweaked to run on the "beta" hand-select hardware.
All in all, alot of times beta hardware/software is better than the final shipments off of mass production. How much does a "Beta" board cost to make? Well, a company I worked for previously made a $150 board in mass production, but our beta development boards cost $5000.00 a piece.
This isn't always the case though, sometimes Beta hardware is junk, clocked slow, and drivers are slowed down by debug messages... In this video idustry though, anything about to be reviewed and is "Beta" gives the company a chance to Tweak things all to hell without fear when going to mass production, because that was "Beta" performance...
- Jeff
Modesty is one of life's greatest attributes
"I'm afraid until ATI starts producing better Linux drivers, I'll have to stick with nVidia's cards for the time being. nVidia has really gotten their act in gear as of late and their latest drivers work great for me under Linux."
Well since we're all being fearful. Nvidia drivers do have issues, windows and linux (otherwise let's disband their help forum). And that's not even mentioning non-x86 platforms. It's nice your loyal, but let's not pretend everything is, or will stay the same. (It wasn't all that long ago that ATI was the one to boo).
To the post under this one. I have some perfectly working but orphen hardware that will not run under W2K. Wanna buy? Why not? I'm certain the companies will come around to supporting them...eventually.
As much as I'd like that to happen, it doesn't seem very likely to happen anytime soon. Really, John Carmack singlehandedly keeps OpenGL alive; if he didn't have such a strong preference for it, DirectX would have just about all the major games out there and hardware support would be significantly worse.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
dude. i won't even look at the responses, because you are probably getting flamed.
...yet.
my response: forgetting about 3d (both will acceptbly play ut2003, sof, quake, etc...both wil do good opengl)
the real problem? 2d.
take anyone new to linux (but with xp or os-x experience) and put them on a gnome/kde desktop. their first experience just click around will be vastly different.
1. xfree86 nv or radeon driver...the interface feels "laggy", and not quite as snappy as your typical os-x, 2k, xp desktop (all hardware being equal)
2. using Nvidia's proprietary driver, the interface in gnome/kde just hum along, window dragging, min/maximizing etc....nvidia's driver in 2d is at LEAST TWICE AS FAST as anything xfree86 drivers can muster.In fact it's so good, it seems faster then XP or OS-X for me.
If i'm introducing a non-techie to linux, I NEVER let them use the desktop unless i have the nvidia binary loaded....i don't want them to make their ENTIRE FIRST IMPRESSION on the basis of a laggy interface due to mediocre drivers (xfree86 itself works quite well, when in conjunction with a good driver)
most radeons are supported by xfree86 code...therefore are subject to the same poor 2d as well.
using a a firegl with ati/ibm drivers again proves that it's the xfree drivers that suck...as they are almost as good in 2d as nvidias.
my point? there's a world of difference in a single driver. linux is far more appealing to your average user when it's behaving snappily using the nvdia driver.
you might think i'm an nvidia fanboy.
guess again.
i own 1000 shares of atyt.
because when it comes to chip stocks, linux is still irrelevant. the chip market is not influence by linux
atyt
nvda
amd
intc
have the majority of their user base in windows & macs.
Funny enough I just built a pretty decent system for significantly less then the cost of either of these cards. It's a AMD Athlon XP 2100+ based system using an SIS746 mobo, 512MB of DDR333 ram, CDRW, 400W server class case, lowend graphics card and a pair of 20GB hdd's I had laying around using software RAID1. Total cost $350, around $100 less than just these cards. Sure it can't play the latest games because it has no 3D accelerator, but that could be remedied for around $120 with a Geforce 4 Ti4200 128MB card, it would still come in at about the same cost as the cards alone.
There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
Tom's Hardware came to the same conclusion. Except for Splinter Cell and some synthetic benchmarks the FX 5900 was clearly the better card.
I picked up an Albatron Geforce Ti4200 for $149 off of NewEgg when I built my current rig, and It's eaten everything I've thrown at it for breakfast. I couldn't be happier.
Then again, I don't feel the need to run things at 34128794x478447848 resolution with 12xFSAA and make my eyes bleed.
When will people learn that buying top-of-the-line hardware just isn't nessecary anymore, and that you pay through the nose for it? By the time games stop running smoothly on my current rig, I can go and buy another 3d card for $150-200, mabye upgrade my processor a bit, and everything'll once again run fine and dandy. Contrast that to the person who has to always have the best, and you're talking huge amounts of money in the long run.
You obviously haven't been to their site recently. The new script will auto-update your drivers from the command line with:
nvidia-installer --update.
This is after you run the shell script that auto installs and updates the information. The downside is that they no longer distribute tar or rpm files. The upside is that if you don't have a standard distro, the script downloads the source and compiles it for you.
Unfortunately you still need to hand edit you XF86Config files.
I love the new installer though, and it's got me hooked.
"We don't know what we are doing, but we are doing it very carefully,..." Wherry, R.J. Personnel Psychology (1995)
Well now it's coming down to them spewing out card after card that only nets you 5-10 FPS for each upgrade without any real performance improvements to speak of. 90% of the games played are non-fps dependent other than getting a decent rate so there's no jerkyness in movement or animations.
It's the same deal with the rest of the computer industry. It's time to make products that work better and not require bigger and more expensive iron.
Just a very curious question:
Does Linux do Direct-X ?
If Linux doesn't do Direct-X, then
How can we know which one runs better under Linux ?
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
I have a Gef4 Ti4200 ultra/650XP w/128m golden sample from gainward, my pc is 2ghz P4 w/512m ddr.
I use Mandrake 9.1 and KDE 3.1
Q3A UT2k3 runs so freaking insanely fast that I can't see ANY reason to have a faster card... Faster for what reason??
What will I gain from it?? $500 to replace something that I think is fantastic with something that I doubt will show me anything better?? Damn, I mean now it's so fast that you can get motion sickness! And on a BIG monitor (yeah!) it 's extremely excellent.
Oh yeah, I watched the giant trailer for the Matrix reloaded on here and it blows away ANY TV I have ever seen. If I were to get an even bigger monitor I could easily do away with my TV set and never miss it..
I'm looking forward to playing EQ on this box in the near future and that's why I bought this card. Of course by the time I get around to installing EQ and signing up they will up the requirements and I'll be forced to shell out $500 for this monster card just to play a silly game.
As always, I'll end up a day late and a dollar short.
If I wait to afford this card they will advance the games some more, then make a new card for that and the vicious cycle will continue. Upgrade, upgrade, upgrade.
And the snake eats it's tail...
Why would anyone spend 400-500$ on a video card. Unless you really NEED to be cutting edge for the next 6 month or so before the next batch comes out and the price of these cards becomes more reasonable.
:)
You're assuming that everyone uses these cards to game on. Certainly there are lots of people and even industries who absolutely need to be on the cutting edge. One example would be animators who work for special effects companies like Industrial Light & Magic or Weta. Time is money to these companies and top flight animators don't come cheap. Paying an extra $300 for a card that's even 10% faster can mean a lot when you're constantly facing time pressures to get scenes done or trying to add one last detail to a scene. Having a card that operates 10% faster allows for 10% more eye candy in the next movie you will go see.
Also, anyone who says 3d drivers in Linux is irrelevant is smoking some good stuff. The 3D effects industry is rapidly standardizing on Linux and are moving away from propietary solutions like those expensive SGI boxes. Why do you think tasty proggies like Maya and X3D have made it to Linux? It's because 3D FX houses were screaming at them to port it. The same thing (but to a lesser extent) happened with 3D drivers for Linux. 3D FX houses pay for top of the line (high margin) stuff and the folks at nVidia/ATI generally listen when those folks are all speaking with one voice. I'm certainly not saying that the 3D FX industry was single handedly responsible bringing quality 3D acceleration to Linux but it was one factor.
G. Washington on Government "it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master."
You miss my point.. Some games are still quite playable and fun, even if I can't play them with all the graphics features turned on.
Gameplay quality is way more important to me than graphics quality.
I'm not say graphics are irrelivant, I'm just wondering who spends 500$ on a graphics card, when much cheaper cards provide a good experience.
Give me a break. I'll wait until they're $100, by which time all the mediocre games will have disappeared into a much- deserved oblivion while I'll just be ready to tackle the top ten of the bunch.
Some games have a lot of replay value - but other games I find are games that are to be played once, enjoyed, then shelved, particularly single-player games. Not because they're bad, but because playing something where I already know the plot twists and the solutions to puzzles and riddles is boring. Not to mention if I had a kick-ass character and don't want to start all over from wimp after winning the game.
Of course, some games should disappear into oblivion. But don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, there are good games that end up being "been there, done that".
Kjella
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
Downloaded latest drivers from ATI. Uninstalled previous drivers, as required. Installed new drivers - setup crashes during installation. Repeat, same result.
Filed a bug report with ATI. First they want to know everything about you, then they give you a google-eye view of their problem database. Since I reported "driver crashes during installation" I was given such gems as "Windows crashes during boot". Did that help? Hell, no it did not.
Next page, then. Have I tried reseating the card? Rebooting Windows? Reinstalling my drivers? Thanks, wow! I'll be sure to try _that_ again. Not.
Finally, I could enter some text which I thought would go to a person. I (once again) entered my problem report and some personal data. I click on 'send'. Almost immediately I get a reply. I look at it, expecting a "thank you for mailing us" type mail. Turns out that instead I have received that google-eye view of their problem database - again, but this time in the mail. As if they were saying "We know you are an asshole who won't take the time to read our excellent solutions, so we'll just give you the same thing twice. Maybe that'll teach you."
There have been no other communications from ATI since then. That makes things simple for me: I won't do business with them. I have a product here that is unreliable and unsupported. I am looking to buy a new system soonish (to play Doom 3, which my current crate won't handle) and I was looking for a 9800. This episode has changed my mind: I'll get an FX. Hopefully the prices will come down a little bit. But wait, this is not yet the end...
Browsing around on the internet I then found a way to get the driver installed anyway, by going through some obscure route. This worked! And then I found out games that previously rendered in glorious 32 bit color were now limited to 16-bit color. I tried to find a solution to that for a couple of days more, and failed miserably.
In the end I put back my GF2. It is not fast or snazzy compared to more recent cards, but it has served me well so far. I'm also happy to report that I made good progress on Metal Gear Solid 2 since then.
The weirdest bit: after I put back the GF2 my machine immediately rebooted back into the Detonator drivers, but when I uninstalled the ATI crap it also wiped out the NVidia drivers. Thanks, ATI. I sure appreciate that kick in the butt, and I'll be sure to remember that when I buy my next card.