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Can Hollywood Learn From Intuit?

Ironica writes "Readers will recall the furor over Intuit's activation scheme for TurboTax 2002, which prompted a lawsuit and subsequently was removed from TT2002 and all future products. Here's an interesting editorial on CNNMoney suggesting that other DRM proponents could take a page out of Intuit's book ... if they have the sense."

35 of 232 comments (clear)

  1. If you had a perfect memory... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Would the MPAA/RIAA/etc want you to pay royalties for remembering things?

  2. One slight problem... by Lord+Kestrel · · Score: 4, Insightful

    In Intuit's case, they actually saw a loss on the books, and realized it was a Bad Thing. Hollywood hasn't seen any such loss, and so doesn't understand.

    1. Re:One slight problem... by Motherfucking+Shit · · Score: 4, Interesting
      In Intuit's case, they actually saw a loss on the books, and realized it was a Bad Thing. Hollywood hasn't seen any such loss, and so doesn't understand.
      I'm not sure about the MPAA, but the RIAA is claiming millions and millions of dollars in "losses." And they still don't understand. I know several people (myself included) who flat-out refuse to accept any crippled, copy-protected, DRM'd imitation of a real CD, even as the record labels continue pumping them out. Their losses are only going to grow.
      --
      "BSD: Free as in speech. Linux: Free as in beer. Windows 10: Free as in herpes." --Man On Pink Corner in #52607549.
    2. Re:One slight problem... by JUSTONEMORELATTE · · Score: 5, Insightful

      In Intuit's case, they actually saw a loss on the books, and realized it was a Bad Thing. Hollywood hasn't seen any such loss, and so doesn't understand.

      One might argue that this is because Intuit has competition, while Hollywood is in fact several dominant companies working together in a de facto monopoly.
      Losing a customer to a boycott is nothing -- there's a line behind you, skippy.
      Losing a customer to your competition, now that's a real problem.

      --

    3. Re:One slight problem... by ryanr · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Exactly. I'm not sure why they aren't regulated as public utilities, and why our anti-trust, anti-cartel laws have been so poorly enforced lately.

    4. Re:One slight problem... by letxa2000 · · Score: 5, Insightful
      Maybe, but you might be underestimating what a "normal user" is these days. What you say might have been true in, say, 1998... but these days I think most people at least are aware of the fact that there is "free" music out there, many of them get it free while those people may pass it to their friends which might not be able to get it for free.

      Not to mention I think that those people who have enough money to buy any significant number of CDs at $20 a pop are very likely to be people that also have enough money to get a PC and use it.

      MP3s and P2P are no longer the realm of techies...

    5. Re:One slight problem... by deadsaijinx* · · Score: 4, Insightful

      somehow, they actaul claimed billions of dollars in loss. Not to beat a dead horse or anything, but how can they possilbe claim billions in loss and still support the lifestyles they do. Unless they were a trillion dollar industry, billions of dollars would be making a big dent in their lives. I could go on and on about how filesharing is helping them out, but I just wanted to mention their ridiculous claims of loss.

      --
      YOU SUCK BALLS!
    6. Re:One slight problem... by ramzak2k · · Score: 4, Funny

      Hollywood is in fact several dominant companies working together in a de facto monopoly.

      thats it ! i am switching to Bollywood. I might as well pick up some hindi before I move to India for some good programming jobs.

      --

      Siggy Say, Siggy Do
    7. Re:One slight problem... by Lord+Kestrel · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I get my concept of a normal user from supporting my sisters with their computers/tvs/vcrs. You would think that they could figure out how to operate them correctly, but they seem to lose all sense and knowledge when they approach anything electronic in nature.

      While I do know many younger people have no problems with, and infact embrace technology, it would seem to me like many/most people still haven't a clue how to download music, or copy it onto a cd.

    8. Re:One slight problem... by deadsaijinx* · · Score: 4, Interesting

      their revenues went down because the ENTIRE economy went down.

      the reason it helps is because of people like me. I never purchased a cd before, the radio took care of all my music needs. But with the advent of the internet, i was introduced to new artists. Because these artists aren't played on the radio, and because I wanted to support them, I bought their cd. Never would have paid for music otherwise.

      not to mention that people have been swapping music LONG before the dawn of the internet. tape to tape recording and such.

      --
      YOU SUCK BALLS!
    9. Re:One slight problem... by tuba_dude · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Revenues are down due at least in part to their slowing of the release schedules for the major artists. According to the statistics, they started slowing down the release schedules about 9 months before they began their attacks. Slower releases mean less revenue, and since it's usually overlooked, it can be blamed on something else, like filesharing.

      --
      "The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion."
    10. Re:One slight problem... by AftanGustur · · Score: 4, Interesting


      If file sharing is helping them out, why are revenues down?

      Crappy product ? Seriously how many artists have some kind of a "message" today ?? Very few, They all look alike and are as much food for the mind as corbonated water with colorants is to the stomach.

      Your arguement makes no sense. They had no copy protection and revenue went down.

      No, actually while they had no copy protection, the revenue was at a all time high. It didn't start going downhill until Napster was shut down..
      Personally I think that's a coincidence but people should remember the things as they were.

      Intuit started using copy protection and their revenue went down. Two entirely different situations.

      Says who ? The recording industry for sure, but they (belive they) have a good reason to want you to belive that .

      --
      echo '[q]sa[ln0=aln80~Psnlbx]16isb572CCB9AE9DB03273snlbxq' |dc
  3. The problem is not entirly Hollywood's by TedTschopp · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The problem can also be laid at the feet of the Copy protection software/hardware companies which see Hollywood an opportunity to sell their product into a new market.

    They have had a devil of a time trying to sell other software companies for the last 10ish years on the idea, but now they have a new market open and this market isn't as technically sauvey as the Software Industry was back in the late 80's early 90's when we all decided the copy protection wars were not feasible.

    Ted Tschopp

    --
    Fantasy remains a human right; we make in our measure and in our derivative mode... -- JRR Tolkien
  4. Can Hollywood Learn From Intuit? by ryanr · · Score: 5, Insightful

    No, Hollywood is incapable of learning.

    But seriously, I joke, I kid...

    Hollywood will learn eventually, after they've been subjected to extreme pressure, loss of profits, and humiliating defeat of any copy protection mechanism they can devise. The same goes for any group of companies that have forgotten they exist because their customers allow them to, and not by some natural right.

    1. Re:Can Hollywood Learn From Intuit? by fishbowl · · Score: 5, Insightful

      >Do you dislike watching trailers in the theater?

      Not at all! I like them very much. Not the self-promotion in the local cinema's trailer, or the slideshow, but I do like the trailers. The ones that represent movies I dislike, I get to see what I'm not missing. All the groaning and cringing I would do during the movie, I'm done with, and I will NEVER be in a position where I think I might enjoy the film. The trailers for the films I *do* like, are part of the experience that is not included in the movie itself.

      I remember the first trailer for Alien, back in '77 I think. I knew that was a movie I had to see. Think about how you feel when you see clips for movies you really anticipate, like Star Wars (admit it), or LOTR.

      >Do you dislike the fact that when you watch a
      >DVD, you often can't skip opening sections on a
      >disk?

      What I dislike about it, is the theory that the production company owns both my DVD *AND* my $20.

      For rentals, I don't really give a crap. I think it would be cool if there was a writeable trailer section so the rental places could put localized adverts, current trailers, etc. It doesn't really bother me that I can't skip them, but it does bother me a lot that it's a crime in the US to make a device that can skip them. I don't really believe the DMCA will stand the test of time, but I also realize that "the test of time" takes a hundred years or more.

      >Do you still go to the theater

      Hardly ever. Only for the films that I really, really don't want to miss. The ones that come every 5-10 years, if that. LOTR. Maybe I'll go see the Matrix, probably not. Certain foreign films that I'll only ever see screened one time and might never make it to home video. This has more to do with my life priorities than my regard for the film industry.

      >and rent/buy DVDs?

      Again, there are certain films whose subjects or whose importantce transcend "entertainment" and are essential. I'd buy them for 4x the price. Rentals are cheap enough also, and I don't see the problem, DRM or no.

      My problem with the restrictions of digital copyright stems entirely from my views as a musician. I do not appreciate being constrained in my means of production by artificial barriers. Many of the barriers between amateur and professional music production are created specifically to raise the bar, and are not really based that much on technical merit.

      Also the whole attitude about copying music actually works against the independent artist who doesn't seek any money at all from his work, but would like it to be heard, shared, etc.

      Whenver I hear something that implies that "downloading copyrighted material" is always wrong, or a crime, I see red -- because that blanket statement would also cover my own copyrighted work. But what if I *want* it to be downloaded, P2P'd, etc? Copyright law is going in a direction that will severely curtail the rights of independent content producers.

      --
      -fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
  5. Ther big difference between movies and software by sould · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Is that Software has to be updated every few years. Software makers don't expect to pay coders a flat fee to produce a product and sit on the profits for the next 70+ years.

    Movie makers do. They pay artists a flat fee to make a movie, grab all copyrights & sell the movie for the next 70+ years.

    So - Software makers dont *need* DRM as much as movie makers.

    We're going to have to wait for (or force) a change in the (frankly corrupt) Hollywood business model.

    So. No. Hollywood won't learn.

    1. Re:Ther big difference between movies and software by Steveftoth · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Only because software is so young and the technology moves fast.

      Also, most software written for PCes at least won't run on current machines without kludges. I mean it kinda works, but it's hard to integrate WordStar into a workflow with any new program. Basically, if you want to use old programs, you can only use old programs.

      And of course, most old games just don't work any more. Maybe wing commander one still works, but I don't know. Anyone tried to play Ultima One for the PC lately?

      PC software makers innovate because that's what everyone else is doing and it hasn't stagnated like movies have.

  6. Keep dreaming by NetDanzr · · Score: 4, Insightful
    It would be surely nice to see similar action being taken elsewhere, but I don't think it will happen.

    TurboTax is an unique piece of software in the sense that it has a very specific goal. It is used only once, and then it needs to be replaced by a newer version. Combine this with the fact that it would appeal even to users who would never install anything else on their computers, and you get a large number of disenchanted customers. You will never get the same protest base with programs like Windows, which come largely preinstalled, or different office suites, which the user installs and forgets, until he replaces the computer.

    As for entertainment products, there is a possibility of such a backlash only when the products don't work on common players. The people who want to play CDs on their computers may be vocal, but they are too small of a minority to hurt the companies' revenues signifficantly, in the case of a boycott.

  7. French Class by Shadow+Wrought · · Score: 4, Funny
    piracy. But DRM, like a soufflé, is incredibly hard to get right

    So...

    DRM = soufflé

    soufflé = to blow (in French)

    Therefore, DRM Blows!

    And thats a wrap!

    --
    If brevity is the soul of wit, then how does one explain Twitter?
  8. Boycott Intuit. by mrsam · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I've been using TurboTax for eight years now. This "product activation" nonsense was a rude surprise for me this year. I certainly did my part in bitching, pissing, and moaning as loud as I could.

    And, I might take this opportunity to mention that product activation wasn't the only thing that made doing last year's taxes with TurboTax a completely disgusting, and revolting experience. Almost every other screen was filled with Intuit's sales pitches for other unrelated garbage that I didn't need, or want. First, Turbotax haggled me to upgrade to a premium version of TurboTax. All they want is my credit card number to "unlock" the extra crap; there's nothing to download. Of course, after reviewing the list of additional "features" in the premium version it was pretty clear that no more than, perhaps, 1% of people could possibly use it.

    Then, TurboTax haggled me to use Intuit's electronic filing service, against for a premium cost. Then, another sales pitch to upgrade to premium TurboTax features, Finally, TurboTax wanted me to pay for storing my tax return in an "electronic vault", for safekeeping (whatever the fuck it means).

    This year, doing my taxes was a totally nauseating experience. Literally, my wallet had a bullseye painted right on it, in bright red colors, and Intuit tried everything they could to grab as much of it as they can. I JUST WANT TO DO MY TAXES AND LEAVE MY WALLET ALONE.

    Intuit is hoping that this controversy is over. But I hope that it's not over. Even though Intuit is now furiously backpedaling and groveling that's not enough for me. I will follow through on my promise, and no matter how many times Intuit will now swear that their spyware/DRM is history, I will still use a competing product next year. And if I like it, I'll continue to use it. If not, I'll perhaps go back to Turbotax the following year.

    I firmly believe that Intuit should not be allowed to get a get-out-of-jail-free card simply by issuing a bunch of warm-sounding press releases, full of vague and nebulous promises. They must still have to deal with the consequences of their decisions, and I'm hoping that others feel the same way too, and will still use some other competing tax preparation package next year.

    1. Re:Boycott Intuit. by Jardine · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Then, TurboTax haggled me to use Intuit's electronic filing service, against for a premium cost

      Your government doesn't have a free e-filing service? Every tax program in Canada will generate a .tax file which you can then upload to the government's site. The file is just a comma seperated file so any spreadsheet program should be able to read it. Something like 70% of the people in my area e-filed rather than mailing last year. I didn't realize the US was so far behind that you need a specialized service to do this.

    2. Re:Boycott Intuit. by IronClad · · Score: 5, Insightful
      I certainly did my part in bitching, pissing, and moaning as loud as I could.

      I did too, making a point that I had been their customer for 6 years straight. In fact, I don't thinks the issue is "Can Hollywood learn from Intuit?" Rather, the issue is, "Can Hollywood's consumers learn from Intuit's consumers?"

      Piss. Moan. Tell them about the titles you will *not* buy because of it. Compare them to seal-clubbers and boys who wear Jeff Foxworthy shirts to school. Tell your neighbor all about region coding. Send your congressman a voided check saying "this is what you would have got if not for your support of the DMCA (or replace with the name of your particular nasty legislation)."

      Even an issue backed by a silent majority of consumers will fail without a vocal minority getting the message across in this day of megacorps, highest-bidder legislation, and perpetual copyright.

  9. As simple as that! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    The FAQ:
    Q: Can Hollywood Learn From Intuit?
    A: No.

  10. I'm Quite Sure Holywood Is Learning by limekiller4 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    From the article:
    "Customer reviews on Amazon.com (AMZN) tell the tale. For the 2001 version of TurboTax (which had no activation feature), the average customer-satisfaction rating was four and a half stars. For the activation-enhanced 2002 edition, the average rating dropped to one and a half stars, and the reviews bore titles such as "scumbags," "disaster," and, perhaps presciently, "the demise of TurboTax.""

    I think the lesson the DRM-and-associated industries will take from this is the Boiling Frog story.

    For those not familiar with it (there might be a few), the theory goes that if you put a frog into a pot of boiling water it will immediately jump out. If you place that frog in a pan of warm water and slowly raise the heat to boiling, the thing won't budge until it's dead (and then it still won't budge. =)

    In other words, the lesson learned is "erode their rights slowly, don't yank the carpet out from under them all at once. Start with the minor potatoes like so-called "fair use." They're entitled to protection from litigation if they're copying something for their own use but that doesn't mean we have to make the item copyable so we can leverage the DMCA for all it's worth. The politicans are cheap. Consider them as insurance or rent money -- just another cost of doing business. The consumer (and oh how I love that word) won't even know they have rights nevermind miss them in 20 years. Just do it slowly."

    Oh yeah. Holywood can learn. The question is "can we?"

    --
    My .02,
    Limekiller
  11. Provide competition for the RIAA by lightspawn · · Score: 4, Insightful

    One might argue that this is because Intuit has competition, while Hollywood is in fact several dominant companies working together in a de facto monopoly.

    Providing an alternative to the MPAA that will be as attractive to an average consumer is not really feasiable, but for the RIAA it can be done.

    Imagine a P2P sharing network that contains only legal content (how? probably something to do with only allowing non-anonymous posting, and a DMCA-protected login (flame away), among other things). Consumers have a legal, non-threatening way to get so much new music RIAA can feel a two-digit-percentage sales drop (on top of the current situation). You'll effectively be cutting off the RIAA's "ear supply", if you will.

    In less than a year, they'll sign up for accounts to post some of their own tainted music.

  12. Re:Fat Chance ... by The+Bungi · · Score: 5, Funny
    Intuit has competition from Quicken

    In the dog-eat-dog world of tax preparation software, there's nothing worse than being assaulted by a product made down the hall from you - which fits in an entirely different niche.

    Worse fate than death, I tell you.

    In the meantime, Intuit does have competition from H&R Block and a few others.

  13. Hollywood... learn... by CanSpice · · Score: 4, Funny

    These two words to not go together.

  14. We knew it all along, and they still don't get it. by Rimbo · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This is a small article in a relatively unknown magazine, and even there, Intuit's claim that the consumer backlash was "completely unexpected" tells the real tale:

    They still don't get it.

    This isn't about technology, rights or anything. This is about simple plain good business sense. This is about bad management. It is a fallacy for a company to think that their product is so delightful that people will put up with being treated like a criminal for the right to use it. Intuit only has one major competitor (H&R Block's Taxcut). The RIAA has thousands of small labels that are chomping at the bit in anticipation of the market the big labels are about to surrender.

    The nice thing about a market economy is that the RIAA's folly is our opportunity. It's actually in the small labels' best interests for the RIAA and Microsoft to continue down the DRM path.

    So let's keep this news quiet, okay?

  15. They won't learn by ShatteredDream · · Score: 4, Insightful

    They can't even grasp basic economics. They flood the market with trash like Dumb and Dumberer and Final Desination 2 and wonder why, according to Jack Valenti (can he be trusted at all?), they gross an average of only $52M a year. The movie studios basically know how to make a movie that will bring in heaping piles of cash. Look at the Matrix and LOTR. The problem is that they are so greedy that they can't accept that at the end of the day, if they produce a few good movies a year and call it even, they will more likely than not come out ahead more easily than if they put out many times that.

    The music industry has an excuse, music fans are often fickle and can throw out a band after one CD because their style "isn't cool anymore." Most music is disposable because people don't want anything artistic or refreshingly original. I listen to old stuff by The Cult occassionally as well as more recent stuff like Stabbing Westward. You don't see that kind of rock anymore. It's the same tuned-down, crunch-your-head-off distortion filled, 3 power chord bullshit. I mean WTF is up with a band like the All American Rejects? I just started playing bass a week ago after having been playing guitar on a semi-active basis for 5 months and can play at least one of their bass lines they're that fucking simple! Swing, Swing has only 4 notes in the entire bass line and you just hit them as 8th notes in sets of 8. Again, pathetic... even I a total newbie write cooler bass lines than that. I want my recording contract now that I know that the bar has been thrown out, not lowered.

    The IP cartels are greedy and they're not bound to full market forces. Whoever heard of a Korn CD competing with a TRUSTCompany CD? They don't, except for this week's $15 allowance. Buy one this week, buy the other next week. They won't learn because the government is going to step in like a good fascist state and save them from the pirhannas of capitalism that are now about to descend upon them. America will slip backward, other countries will take our economic lead, but a bunch of neocons will be able to sleep peacefully at night knowing that the market is safe for Britney Spears and Limp Bizkit. Too bad that a bunch of our IT sector will be in ruins and our economy's growth will be fizzling out. "Property rights" will be have been protected, except for your right to modify your DVD-R/RW or DVD player so it can play non-CSS DVD-Rs. Hey, property rights in the neocon world belong only to those who produce, not those who consume.

    I'm a neo-liberal/libertarian and yes, I openly and freely admit that I vehemently hate neo-conservatism and wish enlightenment for them first, and if that doesn't work a pox on them.

  16. Re:DVD's without protection by agrippa_cash · · Score: 5, Informative

    That was without macrovision: http://slashdot.org/articles/02/06/13/1650225.shtm l?tid=172 They didn't want to pay the MV royalty. Tapes are a pain in the ass to copy and DVD's are encrypted. The bottom line involved was not one dictated by consumer satisfaction.

  17. OH I love this comment! by ehudokai · · Score: 4, Insightful
    "The customer reaction was unexpected."

    They really thought that creating softwer that when installed actually wrote something on my MBR was not going to upset me?


    How dumn are they?


    Up till this year I used turbotax for the past several returns, but this year I use TaxAct. And although their interface was not as nice as turbotax, it saved me money and didn't tamper with my machine!

    --
    This is just sig!
  18. Maybe timothy & slash readers should read firs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative



    Think Intuit is giving up on drm?

    Maybe timothy and the slashdot crowd should check their facts first, before crediting Intuit with anything.

    Looks like Intuit's spin is working wonders.

  19. On the other hand... by bergeron76 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    This could easily backfire and put more power into the hands of MSFT. Since they're currently the only (IFAIK) OS distributor that is "enabling the consumer by adding DRM to the core OS", some software companies may turn to them in an effort to protect their stranglehold on consumers. I'm not necessarily saying that TurboTax was doing this, but the RIAA certainly is; and as such, they're very likely to help push MSFT's propaganda and ultimately help proliferate DRM.

    Here's the bottom line, if we (media users) don't act responsibly and avoid the urge to pirate videos, music, and software (at least buy it or otherwise support the creator somehow), these companies will force DRM onto us.

    As consumers we do have significant "wallet" power, however, if we don't act responsibly, the powers that be will make sure that we do [act responsibly].

    Call me conservative, but the creators of digital content (videos, audio, etc) should be able to make a living; however, they also shouldn't be able to destroy consumers by partnering with an unavoidable monopoly either.

    If we don't take responsibility for our actions (and our peers' actions) now, we can't complain about losing our [said] rights in the future.

    --
    Don't think that a small group of dedicated individuals can't change the world. It's the only thing that ever has.
  20. Tax software, however, is a cash cow by John3 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Intuit gets to sell you the same software each year with minimal changes. Sure they create bloatware versions with videos and extra garbage that nobody uses, but the core product is the same thing they were selling five years ago. They update the tax tables, make the changes for any changes in the law, and sell you the product all over again.

    Intuit realized that many customers were sharing their product with others and that probably looked like lost profits.

    But if someone lets a few others copy TurboTax, odds are one or two of those people will buy their own copy next year rather than hassle with chasing down the shared CD to install the program. Instead Intuit alienated the users that purchased the product as well as those who didn't. When they asked their buddy to borrow the copy of TurboTax, they were told "Sorry, the CD has some lame copy protection stuff". Now the purchaser and his/her buddies say "Intuit s**cks".

    --
    "We make our world significant by the courage of our questions and by the depth of our answers." Carl Sagan
  21. D.R.M. is D.U.M. by Another+AC · · Score: 5, Insightful

    So Apple sold 2 million songs in about 2 weeks at 99 cents each, right?

    Why would these people buy these songs instead of just downloading them for free on Kazaa/Gnutella/etc?

    Getting a song for free:

    - cost: $0
    - ease of use: pretty easy
    - time to get: depends
    - availability: depends
    - quality: depends
    - platform: mp3s will play on any system
    - usage restrictions: none
    - legality: not legal.

    Getting a song from apple:

    - cost: 99c / song, $9.99 / album
    - ease of use: really easy
    - time to get: really fast
    - availability: about 20% of commercial music
    - quality: guaranteed good.
    - platform: mac only
    - usage restrictions: medium-restrictive D.R.M.
    - legality: legal.

    And those are basically all the issues.

    So apparently, ease of use + time to get + quality + legal vs cost + platform + restrictions results in $1 million a week for apple. Not too shabby!

    Now what if they dropped the last two strikes against them (besides cost).. platform and usability restrictions? As they upped their cd library they'd soon find the ONLY advantage Kazaa would have would be price, whereas apple would now win (or at least tie) in every other category! How much money would they maybe gross then?

    They make $1M a week now right? Let's say opening up the service to non-mac users (95%+ of the users) only triples their revenues. Let's say dropping all restrictions on use again doubles the usage. Finally, let's say them quintupling their collection to include everything ever recorded doubles their revenues again. It looks like they stand to make about $625 Million a year from this service.. if they'd just loosen up on the DRM (and complete their selection)!