Computing's Lost Allure

Preach it brother by Anonymous Coward · 2003-05-22 04:57 · Score: 5, Insightful

"I'll take quality over quantity."

Amen. When I graduated in 2000 there were more than a few people in the degree for the money. They were miserable and barely got through as it was. :)

Re:Preach it brother by Fembot · 2003-05-22 04:58 · Score: 5, Funny

They're also known as MSCE's :-)
Re:Preach it brother by Irishman · 2003-05-22 05:08 · Score: 5, Insightful

I have been waiting for this day to happen since the bubblr burst. When I started my CS degree, most of us were there because we loved computers. We spent all our free time (what little there was) teaching ourselves everything we could. By the end of my degree, most of the people entering the program could barely use a DOS prompt, let alone know what Unix was.

I hope that employers start getting the hint as well. It was very disheartening to see people who took a 1-year program to learn computers getting senior developers and architect jobs.

At my office, I have told our headhunters that unless someone has a CS degree and several years experience, we do not want to see them. I may get flamed for being prejudiced against self-taught people, but I have seen far more self-taught people who think they are a lot better than they are than people who actually have an apptitude.
Re:Preach it brother by RealityMogul · 2003-05-22 05:18 · Score: 5, Insightful

Uh duh, did you ever think that maybe the self-taught people actually know just as much as the CS grads because they love it enough to spend their time learning real-world practices instead of spending 4 years learning what some professor thinks is important? I've worked with CS grads before and I'd consider recommending them for writing documentation or being a liason between the real programmers and the customers, but the ones I've worked with suck at writing code.
Re:Preach it brother by AKAImBatman · 2003-05-22 05:39 · Score: 5, Insightful

The advantage of CS degree is filtering out the idiots.

Sadly enough, I've had the opposite experience. Most CS grads in the past few years have been complete idiots. The schools keep saying "We need to make it easier on them. Oh, we'll stop teaching this, this, and that. Super-basic Java? Sure! That's the only marketplace requirement!" What I want to know is, why the f*** is "marketplace requirements" determining the level of education? True CS grads should know how the computer works. They should be able to build an OS or a compiler or whatever else they need. When they actually reach the market is when they should be finding the best ways to put their understanding to use.

Case and point. My company hired a guy who had a masters in CS as well multiple degrees in other fields. He had a good reference from his previous employer, so we hired him. He *could not* write a single line of code. I spent a lot of time with him trying to fill in the holes too. In the end, it was apparent that he really made it by constantly leeching off of those smarter than him and hoping noone noticed. In all reality, he could do very little.

BTW, I am self-taught. I find it almost scary how much more I know about computer science than the computer scientists do. I'll mention a simple datastructure (hashtable, b-tree, anything!) and watch the eyes of degree holders gloss over. I'm sorry if I sound a little worked up over this, but I always expected those who make it through CS programs to know *more* than I do and be able to apply that knowledge at will. Unfortuntely, I'm constantly frustrated by the lack of quality being produced by schools today. There's only one true test of a programmer. Look at their code. If they have none to show you, run the other way.

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Javascript + Nintendo DSi = DSiCade
Re:Preach it brother by Austerity+Empowers · 2003-05-22 06:02 · Score: 5, Insightful

I (MS in EE) learned hash tables, b-tree's and all the other standard data structures and algorithms in high school computer science. It's not that they don't teach this stuff in school as part of a CS (or hell, EE) requirement. The old axiom remains: you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. You can lead a student to knowledge, but you can't make him think. If your intent is to go to school to get a degree ONLY because there's money in that career, 99.9% of the time your education will suffer. That's not to say that you can't get a 4.0 GPA. As my employer (a complete school/degree elitist place) is learning the hardware, GPA & ivy league don't mean anything. At the peak we had "the best and brightest" from MIT, Princeton, Stanford etc. working here and realized: a) Those schools teach the same material b) Students cheat just as much, or more c) The quality of student is universally shitty regardless of degree or institution. Yet when I'm faced with interviewing someone, I always am hard pressed to identify THE good guy in the crowd. They all have excellent creditials (HR sees to that), but most everyone seems blah. The one and only one guy I hired, shouldn't have even gotten an interview (gpa of 3.4, local school), but I hired him because he appeared to actually enjoy the subject. HE turned out to be truly excellent, not because he was the smartest, but because he loved what he did and wanted to do it best.
Re:Preach it brother by Lordrashmi · 2003-05-22 06:11 · Score: 5, Interesting

Well put. You just got a friend (Not that you care, but I figured I might as well have one friend on slashdot...)

I am salf taught as well, and it scared me to find out one of the guys in another programming group has a Masters in CS. He is slow at coding and writes poor code.

It's amazing, the majority of guy in my group are self taught and our customers (internal to the company) love us. We go out of the way to make sure that our systems do what they need to do, when they need to do it. The other group all have degrees, all are certified and write systems that routinely crash, are slow and bloated and take FOREVOR to be released.

I do know that not every case is like this. There are good people with degrees and bad people without degrees.

Maybe I am just bitter...

hopefully this will be for more than just uni's by Hunts · 2003-05-22 05:00 · Score: 5, Insightful

Hoefully this will also cut down on the number of people doing "can not fail" certification courses. I've always found these things insulting. Along with job ads that reuire MCSE's to even apply..for unix admin jobs, or janitors!

Never trust a computer proffesional that doesnt list computer as a hobby.

--
"Enlightenment is your ego's biggest disappointment." --Yoginanda

Re:hopefully this will be for more than just uni's by Anonymous Coward · 2003-05-22 05:10 · Score: 5, Funny

Never trust a computer proffesional that doesnt list computer as a hobby

Never trust a professional who can't spell professional!
Re:hopefully this will be for more than just uni's by Anonymous Coward · 2003-05-22 05:17 · Score: 5, Insightful

Never trust a computer proffesional that doesnt list computer as a hobby.

This is bullshit. It's very sane to have hobbies that involve other things than your profession. It's called balance in your life. One can be a very good lawyer without spending hobby time reading books of law. One can be a very good salesmen without spending hobby time selling things. One can be a very good plumber without having plumbing has his hobby ... one can be a very good computer professional without spending hobby times on his computer.
Re:hopefully this will be for more than just uni's by jawtheshark · 2003-05-22 05:24 · Score: 5, Funny

Never trust a computer proffesional that doesnt list computer as a hobby.
I completely agree. But beware, I work as a consultant and we're supposed to write our own CV to be sent to customers. So, in the personal field I mentioned my own computer experimenst (meaning my two LAN's, servers, alternative OSes, etc...)
The guy from sales asked me at once to remove it because it's "amateur stuff" and not "professional work". *Ouch* I had a fierce discussion with him, but you won't find it in my CV anymore. Yes, I still work there, but the people reading CVs (the first filters, not the technical people) don't want no amateurish sounding things in a CV.
Sad, but true...

--
Ahhh...the great dumpster continuum. Many a free computer will be found there. -- sowth (748135)

Quality by leeroybrown · 2003-05-22 05:00 · Score: 5, Interesting

The question is how do the interested learn anything from an education designed to carry the weak through? Looks like it's still a case of learning more in one week of spare time than a month of college.

babbling by sweeney37 · 2003-05-22 05:00 · Score: 5, Insightful

I was talking to someone yesterday and mentioned I was going back to school, he asked if I was going back to gain some extra computer knowledge. I told him I decided upon a job in computers because as I was growing up, I loved them, but now as I have a job in the computer field, I just don't have the love I used to.

In the past few months I've been rethinking my career path, and I've decided to go back to school. This time around I've decided to learn what I love, instead of what I thought I would love.

Mike

Interesting... by __aagmrb7289 · 2003-05-22 05:02 · Score: 5, Insightful

But there are:

(a) Many people who like computers that suck at working with them;

(b) Many people who don't particularly like computers that don't suck at working with them;

(c) Still a hell of a lot of people who have no business looking at jobs in the IT industry that are working their ass off trying to get on.

Oh, the sad state of this world I live in...

Of Course CS Ph.D.s are just the opposite by sig · 2003-05-22 05:03 · Score: 5, Interesting

The other side of the coin that Computer Science graduate admissions are inundated with applicants this year. Hordes of people, after getting a bachelor's degree a few years ago, went off to industry to get rich instead of persuing advanced degrees. Now that the market has cooled off, many of them are returning to graduate school. It sucks to be a recent graduate trying to get into CS grad school, because you have to compete with many more applicants for the same few slots.

Hmm... by GreyOrange · 2003-05-22 05:06 · Score: 5, Insightful

Well the fact that they are passionate about computers is a good thing. The only thing I don't like is the emphasis on .net and soap, ect in schools. Just the other day I heard that the programers in my company are going to upgrade every piece of software to be .net compatable and all data entry software will be soap based. I slapped my self in the forehead! I certianly hope that some of those purebloods will go to some schools that don't push out microsoft robots.

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Insert Witty Remark Here ===>____________________________

If you don't love it, you'll be bad at it by el-spectre · 2003-05-22 05:08 · Score: 5, Funny

When I came out of school (2000) there were way too many people in it just for the money. The worst were: 1) A girl who, 2 months from graduation, couldn't code to save her life (BSA student's didn't have to, sadly), saying 'I Hate Computers' while in CIS... 2) A woman told me that she was graduating in web development. Since that's my field, I attempted to small talk, with 'so, what do you edit HTML with... homesite, notepad... pico?" She looked at me blankly and said "What's HTML?". I was so shocked that I just said 'uh... hope I interview against you...'

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"Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel." - A.B.

The money? The love of computers? by binaryDigit · 2003-05-22 05:10 · Score: 5, Funny

Hell I'm in it for all the hot chicks ;)

Ever Looked At the Current Job Requirements?? by LordYUK · 2003-05-22 05:10 · Score: 5, Funny

Its like, must have 5+ years of experience in C++, PHP, HTML, Cobol, Java, Unix, be MSCE certified, have customer service experience, be able to lift 70+ pounds, wear blue shoes, drive red car, be exactly 5' 7" tall, talk with a slight Jamaican accent, be willing to commute to India 3+ weeks a month, all for 18,500 a year.

Now, the REAL kicker is the first part, where 90% of the job listings want unrealistic years of experience.

If I was picking my major, and saw that, I'd be like, fsck that too...

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This is my sig. Its pathetic.

For me... by st0rmshad0w · 2003-05-22 05:10 · Score: 5, Funny

...the allure died when I discovered users.

Quality? by DarkSarin · 2003-05-22 05:11 · Score: 5, Interesting

The assumption that because someone loves computers they will excel in working with them is false--somewhat like the idea that someone who loves poetry will excel in writing it is also false

The truth is that most people who have an aptitude for a field will at least dabble in it. But that doesn't mean they will care much for it.

An example of this is simple: In high school I was very good at Biology. It came naturally to me, and I made excellent grades in my Bio class. None of that changed the fact that I hated it. To me, Bio is not very interesting or even especially challenging. So I avoid it, even though when I have taken courses, I have always gotten an A in the class.

How does this apply to Computer Science? Well just the opposite is true. I love it, but that doesn't mean that I am particularly skilled. Sure I can do some limited web deisgn, and I understand hardware and software concepts fairly well, but I know that many of the people on this site are much better at all of that than I ever will be. Why? Because I am not really a much at calculus, which is necessary if you want to be really good at Computer Science.

This is why career counseling is so important. People need to get a grip on what they are both good at and enjoy, and concentrate there. This is one of the major failings of American Education--we focus so much on the idea of going to school to get a better job that we miss the point that if you are doing what you enjoy and are good at, you can almost always find a way to make money--if you put forth the effort to be the best.

That said, I would definitely see people that are going into a field because they enjoy it, not because they think it will make them money. Any field.

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"We don't know what we are doing, but we are doing it very carefully,..." Wherry, R.J. Personnel Psychology (1995)

Everyone should have known this by jawtheshark · 2003-05-22 05:13 · Score: 5, Insightful

If you chose an education, you should not choose what is trendy, but what you *like* or what you are *interested* in.

That's what I did, before the internet boom, and I graduated in the middle of the internet boom... *not* taking advantage of it and just looking for a stable job. Which I still have, right now.... (Just got a raise, so I am not to complain).

Yes, I chose Computer Science because I love computers, I love programming and I discovered that I loved the math and theory behind all of it. (Because, boys 'n girls.... Computer Science doesn't end at being a good coder)

Apart from that I have to quote the article:
People aren't seeing the glory in computer science that they used to.

I think that is false: there never has *been* glory in Computer Science. Not even in the dot-com boom. No, *technology* was glorified, not the science.

Anyways: do what you like. That's the only advice I can give. (Oh, and to my surprise I read in the article that there are more girls doing CS now! Damn, I wish I was younger and back at University *grin*)

--
Ahhh...the great dumpster continuum. Many a free computer will be found there. -- sowth (748135)

This was to be expected by saintjab · 2003-05-22 05:17 · Score: 5, Interesting

Of course this would happen. Five years ago (give or take) being a doctor or lawyer was the most desired of all professions; and enrollment was high. I was reading just recently that both have declined in the last few years; much like CS. The reason? Money. When the market is flooded with opportunities to make money in a certain industry there will be an up turn in degree seekers for that field. Now that the 'bubble' has burst the field isn't so attractive to prospective new techies. This is not a bad thing it's just the result of the society changes and morphing. It's like the balloon theory; there may be less CS degree seekers, but there is probably more of some other field. It's very natural that this should happen and kinda cool for techies like myself who actually love what they do. I never looked at computers as a route to make money; rather something I enjoyed experimenting/playing with. It's a happy bi-product that I'm able to make a living with it.

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"Reality is a crutch for people who can't handle drugs" - George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

Re:The great IT labor shortage of 2006 by smack_attack · 2003-05-22 05:33 · Score: 5, Insightful

I hope you speak Hindi.

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Hammer of Truth

What I tell people going into a computing major by Badgerman · 2003-05-22 08:13 · Score: 5, Insightful

Make sure you enjoy it. Really enjoy it. It's a lifestyle.
Make sure you know what you're doing. If you're going into a CIS major without much experience, you may be in for a nasty surprise.
Get a second major or a minor in something else that is useful, relevant, and can be combined with the computing.
Stay on top of the news, the trends, and move with the times.
Get ANY job experience, any relevant experience ASAP and always maintain that resume.

My irony is that I'm a psychology major who did a lot of research and used a lot of computers. Now half my work involves data abstraction, workflow, working with people, and statistics. If I'd gone into a CIS major I probably would have been a worse programmer - the extra "something" helps.

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"The Sage treasures Unity and measures all things by it" - Lao Tzu

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