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Navigation Satellites Over Europe
Snags writes "It looks like Europe is getting its own equivalent to WAAS (a set of ground stations and geostationary satellites which relay information to help GPS accuracy in the US). The EGNOS system system is having a base station inaugurated in Langen, Germany this week. The system augments signals from GPS and Russia's Glonass to provide 2-meter accuracy in Europe. This is the first stage of the Galileo system reported earlier, and I'm sure these satellites and base stations will perform the same function once the Galileo constellation is flying."
after big brother, now also little brother will be watching us...
sig(h)
i am curious, what kind of skill set would be necessary to apply for a job there? i have a unix background, but no knowledge about astronomy/ space tech whatsoever [although i think the whole thing is rather interesting]. maybe someone in the /. community has some ideas on how to get into this industry?
Satellite navigation is a weapon of mass destruction. Let's bomb them now!
Dupe post for dupe story....
Tragically we know how the US would like to react:
http://www.eetimes.com/sys/news/OEG20030522S0050
The nation's largest intelligence agency by budget and in control of all U.S. spy satellites, NRO is talking openly with the U.S. Air Force Space Command about actively denying the use of space for intelligence purposes to any other nation at any time not just adversaries, but even longtime allies, according to NRO director Peter Teets.
At the National Space Symposium in Colorado Springs in early April, Teets proposed that U.S. resources from military, civilian and commercial satellites be combined to provide "persistence in total situational awareness, for the benefit of this nation's war fighters." If allies don't like the new paradigm of space dominance, said Air Force secretary James Roche, they'll just have to learn to accept it. The allies, he told the symposium, will have "no veto power."
This would not go down to well at all. I know the US economy/military is the biggest in the world - but I still think that a trade war/shooting war with every other country in the world isn't the best way of improving the lives of American citizens.
"Free software as in beer, copy protection as in racket" - Telsa Gwynne
It would not be good for anyone. Not just Americans. I am very afraid of the twisted logic working on the minds of many American officials. They think that they can enforce anything they want to everybody else , just because they have a bigger army. Things i am afraid are not that simple. EU will not stand silent and be told that can not go into space (or any other bullying US may come up with). The possibility of a future conflict arises quickly.
I would love to argue about how the size an army MANY times in history has proven to be irrelevant, but considering that both US and EU are "nuclear enabled" (TM), it is made clear that none can win is such a case.
I hust hope that this "we are the ones" mentality stops before it is too late.
Thank you.
Slashdot Sig. version 0.1alpha. Use at your own risk.
If allies don't like the new paradigm of space dominance, said Air Force secretary James Roche, they'll just have to learn to accept it.
Translation:
If allies don't like us invading Poland, they'll just have to learn to accept it.
Strange how they want the rest of the world to just lay down their arms and give up and say "hey use me as a doormat", and at the same time make fun of the belgians and the french.
I am afraid of Americans... God is an American
:-\
~~~Please pass the salt, I hate unsalted MD5s
Does anybody know how dependent the Galileo system will be on the US. I mean how many components will be manufactured in the states and will the states have export veto powers like it currently has on military equipment. For example when Israel wanted to sell radars to China they could not as some components were from US companies. Will the same apply to Galileo as in if the US decides some state like North Korea doesnt deserve GPS then will the Europeans be prevented from selling it ? Do note these decisions are a lot of times economic rather than related to national security. For example the states is pissed abt the russians selling Nuclear reactors to Iran not because these reactors can be used for weapons but because the contracts did not go to American companies and under current sanctions American companies cannot even subcontract for the Russians.
Or maybe Galileo is Europes way of getting out of exactly such a situation.
On a related note recently when India was evaluating Advanced Jet Trainers the two options were the British and the French but the French were favoured as they use no American components and are thus not hostage to American policy. India has suffered on this count earlier. India used to have a lot of Sea King helicopters produced by the British with American components but after the Nuclear tests the American prevented the British from supplying spare parts
**Life is too short to be serious**
Excuse me for being ignorant, but how exactly are satellites that improve the accuracy of GPS over Europe useful for spying? Where would lie the threat to US?
Hell is not other people; it is yourself. - Ludwig Wittgenstein
The next stage is to integrate components of the Eienstein system to take into account the distortion of space between signal tranmittance and reception.
Ask me about repetitive DNA
Trust me when I say. This has NOTHING to do with being an American. We are APPAULED by 100% of the shit that is going on here in office. The opposition here in the US is HUGE, the only problem is every mass media is owned by a handful of people that have their hands in the proverbial cookie jar. Everything over here is tainted. (Look how the bastards entered office, the final decision hanging on a state I might add run by an unmentioned brother?) Now finally, another Tax cut so that the prez can say that he focused on the "people" and not going after Saddam when he was gunning for him from the begining. I am sure he stood up and did a damn dance on his desk when Sep. 11 happend because he knew he could lump Saddam into the same boat as BinLadin when there were no KNOWN ties. We sold Saddam 1/2 the shit that he has and busted him for. This is retarded, the US is fucked! I could rant all night there are so many things wrong with this place! SHIT, United States my ASS, I need to get the hell off this continent.
Sad days ahead.
One of the cleverest things the Galileo designers have come up with is to put their signal right in the middle of the US military GPS signal with an encrypted overlay. This means if in times of war the US tries to jam Galileo they jam their own military GPS and everyone is back to square one with civilian grade GPS which in any case everyone upto a Taxi driver has
**Life is too short to be serious**
Being able to build recon drones that know where they are.
Being able to give special foces soldiers GPS units that tell them accurately where they are.
Also the phrase that was used in the article is 'denying the use of space for intelligence purposes' so it may cover photo-imaging satelites.
"Free software as in beer, copy protection as in racket" - Telsa Gwynne
It won't. Well over 90% of the software industry has no dependence on a particular platform or on selling shrink-wrapped software.
But let's assume you're right (which you aren't). Then so what? If the current big players can't outcompete volunteers, they don't really deserve to live on. And if US software developers can't find a way to compete with cheaper labour (despite having the advantages of being in place, knowing the language and customs, and having a great infrastructure), then their demise is also warranted. You want to get paid more than your competition, you had better be prepared to offer some other incentives in return. Arguing that "but we don't _want_ to compete" is not going to endear you to your prospective customers.
And if OSS shrinks the global market value of the IT industry (which it has no indication of doing; quite the opposite) - again, so what? Less people will find jobs in the industry, and those that do will not be paid as well anymore. Ask around to see what people in other disciplines with a comparable education earn, then ask yourself why you are entitled to a much higher salary. The answer is, you probably aren't.
Quite whining, get off your behind and either retrain to be able to offer real value, or get out of the industry.
I think you're thinking of China...
but as for strongest military, that would be USA by a nose.
Pity we don't have The Spiders yet.
What you've really gotta ask is, if this "policy" is accepted, will any countries who want to launch any satellites then have to prove that they have no "advanced intelligence-gathering" uses or risk getting "negated"? Or will only US approved sattelites be allowed? Sound crazy....? well:
....manage the planet!!?
Secretary Donald Rumsfeld made it clear that the abrogation of treaty constraints in the use of radar and tracking devices was not just for the benefit of fielding a missile-defense system, but to build better unilateral networks to manage the planet from space.
Trust me when I say. This has NOTHING to do with being an American. We are APPAULED by 100% of the shit that is going on here in office. The opposition here in the US is HUGE,..
61% still have a linking for that cokehead turned emperor.
I need to get the hell off this continent.
As a native Central American, I'm insulted. Our part of the continent still rocks! Just cuz you stole the name doesn't mean you annexed us;-) Btw, I'm moving back there next week. Really.
US would like to say thanks and has asked the Middle East & Far East Asia to install similar systems, to make it easier and cheaper in case we need to LIBERATE THE HECK OUT OF ANOTHER COUNTRY
Hello my sane-minded American friend, I too am attempting to effect an escape from the U.K. into Europe. (I don't enjoy my country following the Bush administration round like a dog on heat).
:P
Now I haven't quite formulated a plan for escape yet but needless to say, I hope to use GPS for navigation en route.
Rumour has it that this may have been tried before, there is even talk of a tunnel having been built between the U.K and Europe!
Ripping an new rectum in the fabric of spacetime.
Just after reading the various US vs. the rest of world discussions here ...
I think Europe has (doesn't matter on which side you are, but this should be clear) to create new systems which are US-indipendent. Recent events show how important it is to be indipendent, in particular under an economic viewpoint. Just looking at the telco business, I heard for example a few months ago (was it here on slashdot?) that iraq is not going to use the GSM standard for cell phones.
Having then a systems which will be indipendent of GPS at the end will be a great thing, there were already big discussions in Europe about "how precise it really is" and "how its precision can be manipulated by the us". If the system then will be fully civilian, then it will be really cool. I think we will see more and more Europe going in this direction, i.e. trying to get more and more indipendent from the us.
For millions and billions of years, the planet has managet itself just fine. I don't see any reason why it should all of a sudden need the help of some (parasitic?) humans, especially Donald Rumsfeld...
Hell is not other people; it is yourself. - Ludwig Wittgenstein
You're welcome.
The problem is the economy...we don't have the rest of the world depending on us anymore. Thanks to all the jobs exporting programs, we have a lot of our own technology people unemployed. We have ex-aerospace engineers working as countermen at Radio Shack. And as Greeters in Wal-Mart. I know this as fact. I worked along side of them.
Methinks we are really dregging the bottom of the barrel now trying to kick-start the economy.. note how the powers that be keep dropping the interest rates trying to maintain real-estate values. Once this system starts collapsing and fewer and fewer people can pay the price, we will see a lot of formerly rich investors find their money re-absorbed by the same process that generated the money in the first place. Money was created from nothing, it can go back to nothing just as fast, as it was created not by substance, but hope and hype.
I know we are on the bandwagon now to convert ourselves to an information-based economy with all sorts of intellectual property rights legislation, but this is going to work only if others want to send their money over here just because we say so. All these tax breaks are trying to put a few more dollars in the pockets of the public at large to bolster spending, so as to boost business ( and stock prices ), but its doing it at a steep cost of running public debt through the roof.
I am watching my Nation act like a family whose breadwinner has lost employment, yet continuing to spend the resources as if nothing's changed, using credit cards to give the illusion of maintained spending power. Ask anyone whose let debt get out of control to see what hell is. From what I see, we are heading right into it.
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]
irak was no threat to US too
stop supporting microsoft with pirating their software!!!!!
Did you? I felt great. I love the fact that Bush is a mean, nasty bastard. I want him to lead this world into WW3. It will give us an opportunity to slaughter a lot of people.
-- You see, there would be these conclusions that you could jump to
Those sattelites are owned by Major League Baseball!
McGwire: Young Bart here is right. We are spying on you, pretty much around the clock.
Bart: But why, Mr. McGwire?
McGwire: Do you want to know the terrifying truth, or do you want to see me sock a few dingers?
Crowd: Dingers! Dingers!
[McGwire hits the long ball]
Oooh!
McGwire: [takes printout] Yoink!
[tucks it under his hat and looks around, suspiciously]
One of the great improvements that WAAS offers over standard GPS is that it lets a user compute both a position and an error limit on that position. The position is guaranteed to be accurate within the error limit. Standard GPS gives you a position, but, can't "guarantee" that the position is correct. This is why the FAA doesn't allow standard GPS to be used as the primary navigation aid on an airplane during bad visibility conditions: there is no guarantee that the plane is going to find the runway where GPS says it is.
But when the FAA set the rules for determining how safe the error limit has to be, it pretty much guaranteed that the error limits broadcast by WAAS were going to be huge. (~30 meters) WAAS is way paranoid safe.
It will be interesting to see if EGNOS makes the same tradeoff between safety and usability that the WAAS system did. Maybe EGNOS will choose a less stringent safety requirement, and thus end up with smaller error limits.
Either way, both systems will probably have the same accuracy. (~1 meter)
The next stage is to integrate components of the Eienstein system to take into account the distortion of space between signal tranmittance and reception.
Actually, I seem to remember that the GPS system does make use of general relativity for precisely this reason, because the timing signal has to be so accurate. Presumably Galileo will have to do the same thing.
Oh I am sure it will go down real well at the GOP convention. Platform for a second term? Tax cuts, two more wars (Syria and Iran) and hope nobody notice continued deficits, recession and decline in influence.
Wellcome to the Neocon world. Oderint dum metuant.
The original idea of Galileo was a gambit to get the US to turn off the dithering that reduces the range for civilian uses. Then when the project was set for the big up or down vote the Bushies chose that week to start a trade war with Europe by imposing steel tarifs. So the French got their way and the decision was unexpectedly made to build it.
The suggestion that the US would jam or try to destroy the European GPS system is a ridiculous fantasy of the extreeme right. An attack of that kind would be an act of war. It might not lead to actual war but the consequences would be very serious. The European powers affected would react. There is a lot they could do to impound US assets such as airplanes, it is unlikely that Congress would want to escalate a crisis that had been instigated by the administration. The most likely result is that there would be a humiliating climb down by the US.
I am suprised that in all the anti-French bashing the GOP has got into they have not remembered that France is a terrorist state and has done this sort of thing. The bombing of the Rainbow Warrior in New Zealand was a terrorist act committed by the French secret service. One of the terrorists was living in Florida until recently. If it was not for the US and British the French would be speaking German. On the other hand if it was not for the intervention of the French Navy in Yorktown you all would be speaking English.
The French has been right about Iraq so far though, which is another example of this style of politics. The US has found no difficulty invading, but getting out is starting to look problematic. It does not look as if the Iraqi's are going to choose Chalabi as the replacement for Saddam. Instead the South is more interested in a radical Shite cleric with strong ties to Iran and the North wants independence. The US is currently occupying the middle which is also the part that is in the biggest mess. Meanwhile it has become abundantly clear that the claims of a threat from WMD that Powell told the UN security council were untrue.
The GOP can call this fiasco a rip roaring success if they like. But the result is that the US is committed to occupying the country with several hundred thousand troops for up to a decade while islamic militants take pot shots at them.
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Nobody buys much american shit anyway.
Yeah, no one pays money and:
- Watches American movies
- Drinks American colas
- Eats at American food chains
- Uses American computer software/operating systems
- Buys American music
- Watches American television
... outside of the USA. Right.
It's stupid, blind, anti-American statements like that that make Americans think Europeans are arrogant assholes. I for one have travelled all over the world and find amazing things in many many cultures including Europe. This whole "you suck/we rule" thing is so idiotic on BOTH sides, but since many people are simply dying for an enemy, I guess you've picked us...
One thing that happened to be dragging our armed forces into a war.
Obviously thats only a little 'one' thing.
Ripping an new rectum in the fabric of spacetime.
If you suceed in infuriating your 'allies', they quickly cease to be your 'allies'.
Eventually they become your enemies.
Ripping an new rectum in the fabric of spacetime.
Actually 'blowing-up' foreign countries equipment deliberately would be likely construed as a declaration of war.
This would especially be the case between certain 'western' countries.
Ripping an new rectum in the fabric of spacetime.
That rings so true. It is exactly how things work here and explains a lot.
I am suprised that in all the anti-French bashing the GOP has got into they have not remembered that France is a terrorist state and has done this sort of thing. The bombing of the Rainbow Warrior in New Zealand was a terrorist act committed by the French secret service. One of the terrorists was living in Florida until recently. If it was not for the US and British the French would be speaking German. On the other hand if it was not for the intervention of the French Navy in Yorktown you all would be speaking English.
a couple of points on that:
Mielipiteet omiani - Opinions personal, facts suspect.
Are you sure that AC troll you were replying to was not an American? That statement could have been read either way.
Mielipiteet omiani - Opinions personal, facts suspect.
Not to detract from an otherwise interesting post, but...
you forgot the Russians in WW2, most of what they did against the Germans was without outside help. Hitler was insane enough to attack them and that alone sealed his death-warrant. They got to Berlin first.
it was my understanding that the allies had purposely halted their advance to let the russians in first To sort-of repay them for the massive losses they incurred, they let the russians serve the death-blow
Does anyone else remember that?
-Bucky
My reading of that part of history was that the Russians were very upset that the western allies took so long about invading in France and Italy, leaving the Russians to take their losses.
;-) had good reason to be cautious, and time + air superiority were on their side.
You may well be right about the western allies going slow, but that was earlier in the war. I thought they were going pretty much at full speed at the end. As to what would have happened if the landings in France had been moved forwards, the Germans were anything other than pushovers. The Brits / Yanks (
Mielipiteet omiani - Opinions personal, facts suspect.
The EU is planing a complete space program where Galileo is only a part of:l
http://europa.eu.int/comm/space/index_en.htm
A discussion all over Europa is just ongoing. Perhaps space exploration will be included in the constitution treaty of the EU which is just under negotiation.
Yes. We should also forbid deadly weapons like wooden planks with nails on them.
It would be really, really stupid for the US not to have a program for dominating space, given that it has the capability in every other theater of war, and more and more of that capability depends upon space based technology. And longtime allies can become enemies or can assist enemies (you only need a two month long memory to know that).
Those who think the US is evil or a big ogre for this have little concept of the difference between the actuality of conflict of national interest and the non-existence of some marvelous, peace-loving big momma world government.
The purpose of the US military is to defend the US. We are the most likely target (largest economy, natural focus for hatred from any dissatisified group anywhere, reluctant world policeman).
But I suppose we should do as implied by all the highly moderated posts in this thread... NOT protect our GPS assets from hostile threats, and NOT be able to deny accurate space-based navigation to potential hostiles.
Then France will sell the next nuclear armed tyrant a nice guidance system for WMD's, which he will provide to nameless terrorists who will use it to kill even more Americans than on 9-11.
Yeah... that's a clever strategy. It's like coating yourself in money and walking around blindfolded in a bad part of town! Real smart!
And of course nobody will complain when our GPS is disabled and we have to use dumb bombs in large numbers, causing huge amounts of collateral damage, the next time we or someone else is threatened (remember, we also used smart bombs when Europe came begging for us to attack Serbia).
Sometimes the level of reflexive anti-Americanism amazes me.
The only good weather is bad weather.
OK they would be speaking either German or Russian...
When you say 'you would all be speaking English', is that a comment on Slashdot spelling?
Sorry old bean I can't understand your accent. Perhaps if you typed a little slower.
There is this thing we have in England called a joke.
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Absolutely not, Churchil and FDR knew that Stalin was as bad as Hitler. Stalin actually managed to kill more people over his career, something like 30 million or so.
The US and UK slowed their advance to avoid having their supply lines overstreached. But they were trying to get there as fast as they could.
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This gives no advantage to europe over the US. You can rest assured that before europe puts this into operation, the US will have developed a way to neutralize it if they every really need to. Imagine if europe had provided this service to Iraq so that Sadam could use satelite guided missiles against the US. That is not a possability our military will allow. They may let europe build it, but stopping it will be totally under US control.
A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
every single article posted on slashdot as of recently has become a forum for bashing America. I believe in freedom of speech, etc, etc, etc, but this is fucking ridiculous. It's time that moderators step up to the plate, put their political bias asside and moderate these posts accordingly. The only reason that anti-american posts appear today is due to the overwhelming karma deligation by the moderators to those who share their views on america. If a war is what you snide, arrogant europeans want to start, then i suggest you start it somewhere else if you have any hope at all at winning it. It is getting to the point of insanity. Every fucking story, no matter how distant from politics, suddenly points right back to the same direction: America sucks. Well fuck you. Fuck all of you. You are nothing but karma whoring sluts. Your stories are all offtopic, redundant, and flamebait.
/. is an unbiased, centrist news site without being a true filthy fucking liar. This site is more left-winged than michaelmoore.com. Hell, you guys should add his site to the OSDN list. You're pretty much the same shit in my book. Please, mod this post down, down as far as you can because it will only prove my point. You are a bunch of people that sit behind a fucking computer all day long and claim to know about the world. You offer your twisted insight on things that you could not possibly even have the slightest understanding of (when it comes to politics) and roast anyone else with a differing opinion. This site is "News for Nerds, Stuff that matters" and it is how I remember it being when it first fired up. Since then, it has become something I am ashamed of being a part of. Please, if any of you know where I need to go to cancel my account, reply. Otherwise, just shut the fuck up and keep your rantings to yourself, I already know what you are going to say.
As of now, I suggest that Slashdot change it's slogan to
Slashdot
The central bastion for all who hate America.
This will at least give us 'USians' a warning before we unwittingly subscribe to your Socialist/communist/left-wing garbage.
There is not an honest person on this site that can claim
Sorry old bean I can't understand your accent. Perhaps if you typed a little slower.
Are you sure you are English? The authorised version is:
Sorry old bean I can't understand your accent. Perhaps if you typed a little louder.
Wasn't there an episode of 'Rab C. Nesbitt' where he came to London? I never saw that one but was told that subtitles were used.
Mielipiteet omiani - Opinions personal, facts suspect.