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UK Councils May Dump Windows For Linux
An anonymous reader writes "Local authorities in Newham and Nottingham are expected to migrate more than 10,000 desktop computers from Windows to GNU/Linux.
ZDNet has the story. "If this is seen to work in Newham, it has the potential to be a significant project, changing the perceptions of other councils," said Tim Dawes, director of local government technology consultants Nineveh."
I don't know if its the way its being reported or if its actually true but it seems Linux is get more and more chosen over M$.
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What has happened to Linux zealotry on /. The actual article title clearly and totally ignores the fact these councils are only doing feasability studies, not actually switching.
/. header actually notes this fact that these councils may switch to Linux. What happed to the good old days when /. would report them as having already switched with lots of interesting anecdotes about how shit Windows is and how brilliant Linux is.
UK councils dump Windows for Linux
Most bizaarly then the
I just dont know what the world is coming to
Do not try to read the dupe, thats impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth
What truth?
There is no dupe
Though there seems to be a lot of people here that would like to see it. Hmm if anyone has access to Microsoft Partner Source they have pretty good presentation on ROI of a Windows Server vs Linux. Basically it said that with just a web server Linux has the better ROI, but when it came to an applications server Windows not only has better ROI, but a more complete applications suite, many available as both 1st and 3rd developers.
I've tried, extremely hard, to move to a Unix-based desktop, repeatedly. No office suite yet comes up to the features or compatibility (yeah, I know I can't blame anyone but MS for this, but I need to work, not whine) of MS Office. Crossover Office has only just got itself Access support, and I'm not prepared to pay the cost of an OEM XP license for it ($55). Meanwhile, setting things up to "just work" in such things as the browser plug-ins department is not worth my time.
Then there is the specialist software which simply doesn't have a Linux port: it's all very fine and dandy if you want to hack in emacs/gcc all day, but not if you need to do real work with real software packages (eg OrCAD). And no! the Free alternatives aren't nearly good enough, and will remain not-so without hundreds of man years of effort.
Before I get "troll"-labelled, I do run a BSD machine as my usual desktop. But I frequently RDP to a Windows machine. And I'm seriously considering MacOS X to solve half the problems above.
I disagree. I have used Linux as my desktop since 1994 and when I set up my company I put it on everyone's destops too. I recently offered to switch to Macs but was resoundingly told that we should stick with Linux as they liked it. We have no trouble working with other companies, OpenOffice is fine for all our documents which are the vast majority of what we need an office suite for. We can share those with others as PDF as generally they should not be changing the content of our docs, and if we need to work with others OpenOffice is free so I give them a copy. And if totally unavoidable, we have Office2K under crossover on one machine but it is rarely used. Even if we were using Office2K primarily, docs sent out should be in PDF unless there is a specific reason. Word itself has trouble rendering docs correctly when done on another copy so PDF preserves the formatting better and should be used instead.
Well we are 3aIT have for the last four years been moving sites from Novell and Microsoft Servers to OPen Source Applications such as Linux, Samba, Exim, HylaFax etc . Weve moveed appx 500 seats so fa. Weve saved these companies an estimated 100k in license fees and support costs over the last 4 years. We are a 6 Man team , growing in numbers each year, and we have experience and case studies on moving people to Linux...
And thats why Firecrackers and kittens don't mix.
First, yes the story says they are considering the switch, second, the header dosen't contain the word "may".
I wonder about pressure that local governments can apply externally on businesses. People resist moving from Windows and MS Office saying it will be too hard to convert to something else because file formats are a problem. Yet San Francisco can mandate that any company that deals with the city must have gay friendly policies in place across the entire corporation at the local, state and country levels.
Why can't this same pressure be used to ensure that documents sent to local governments must be readable by freely available packages like Openoffice.org or the companies can not continue doing government business? Make it a requirement and watch the barriers to free and opensource software drop. Then if a local government is having a financial crunch, let them convert older systems to linux/freebsd/whatever without worrying that common document formats can't be read. This way governments could cut computing costs and hire another teacher or policeman, heck maybe even fund youth baseball for a season ( not cheap).
Kindness is the language which the deaf can hear and the blind can see. - Mark Twain
I hope the consultants are working on these lines rather than just doing the "can we do everything we do not with a different technology".
The biggest problem is likely to be user retraining - and this is where educational policy needs to be looked at. Schools don't teach Gallimard French or General Motors physics. We expect school subjects to be vendor-neutral. Yet IT is often far from it. Hardware has to be made by somebody, but surely education software should be fully standards compliant and vendor neutral. Potentially, this should level the playing field for students, employers and vendors, and allow companies and local authorities planning long term strategy to make market-independent assessments of needs. I believe that UK local authorities share some responsibility for education with the central government. If so, that's an area of policy they might want to influence.
Panurge has posted for the last time. Thanks for the positive moderations.
I keep hearing this criticism of Open/StarOffice, that it does ok with Word docs but doesn't work with most of the other MS Office file formats. I got curious about this so I've been forwarding various Word docs, Excel spreadsheets, and PowerPoint presentations to my home email address from work just to test opening up files with OpenOffice. (If you're reading this, Boss, don't worry I delete everything right after the test!)
While there are some very minor little anomalies that I've noticed, I've been able to read and manipulate the data for every file that I've opened (and I've opened them all right from the email that they were attached to). So I'm wondering if my lack of problems is isolated to Red Hat 9.0 being my distro or if it's something else? Just last night, I opened up two PowerPoint presentations (the second even had sound transitional effects that played) with absolutely no problem. I don't mean to suggest that anyone reporting problems is spreading FUD; I'm just curious as to why I haven't experienced those problems.
--K.
Sig: Bad people happen. Try to avoid being one of them.
While it has very good Word im-/export, it's not yet faultless (and won't be any time soon, because of inherent limitations of OpenOffice). And you NEED that import, because otherwise you can't exchange documents outside of your department.
I'm guessing you are American, or at least have never dealt with British councils. The inability to talk to other departments would be considered a benefit. Remember, whilst it is usually permitted to provide a good service, if anyone in authority finds out then your department will be buried somewhere under an obscure name and removed from any and all directory listings in the hope that the public wont find out.
(This is not humour.)
I know UK Police forces (West Yorks initially) were looking at a thin client Linux desktop deployment, which it was claimed could lead to greater Linux take-up in the public sector - story. Any connection I wonder? My favourite quote - "Linux is Unix done properly.".
The story doesn't say that the final decisions have been made. A feasibility study is being mounted to replace Windows systems by the end of the year. Microsoft will be pulling out all the stops against this. A May 14th Slashdot discussion on the topic quotes Orlando Ayala, head of sales at Microsoft, as saying: "Under NO circumstances lose against Linux." They're going to practically give Windows away to avoid these setbacks. Even if they do prevail, though, the die is cast against Redmond.
I think that Microsoft has "jumped the shark."
Longhorn is two years away. Palladium-Next Generation Computing is alarming large segments of the IT community. Microsoft's latest licensing scheme antagonized its business customers. It is a convicted monopolist; its options against future challenges aren't what they were before that conviction and they face antitrust action in Europe and elsewhere. Viruses and worms spread by and through Windows IIS, Hotmail, Outlook, Outlook Express and Internet Explorer create weekly embarrassments in the face of Bill Gates's call for improved security. The strategy to impose a Microsoft-powered Digital Rights Management regime on users has been hurt badly by Apple's iTunes Music store. Economic conditions have slowed the adoption of Windows XP because new machines aren't being bought at rates anticipated before the technology industry nosedive. Millions of Windows 98, ME, and 2000 customers see no need (and have little incentive) to upgrade.
And now, the growth of Open Source has crippled Microsoft's ability to "embrace and extend" critical standards. The first big mistake in that battle is their recent announcement that there will be no more standalone versions of Internet Explorer. Open Source alternatives will be able to develop and implement improvements in browser technology at a much more nimble rate than will Microsoft while maintaining compatibility with current standards. New versions of IE that cripple functionality will drive customers toward alternatives rather than toward IE (and the requisite release of Windows that delivers it).
Microsoft's stated goal of "Windows on every desktop" is no longer practical. Steve Ballmer's recent memo to the troops admits as much. I've been in the computer industry for over twenty years now and I assure you that that is a HUGE victory, but the advantage has to be pressed now or Microsoft will catch up like it has caught up so many times before. Open Source has to continue its emphasis on better, faster, cheaper, safer, and more reliable.
But for now? Bravo!
Merrill Lynch research shows that deploying Linux internally that could save the company millions of dollars, an executive at the investment banker said.
During a presentation Friday at the Enterprise Linux Forum, Mark Snodgrass, vice president of Merrill Lynch's in-house technology provider, the Global Technology & Services group, said that the company has found that re-architecting its information infrastructure using Linux can reduce administration costs dramatically.
In fact, Snodgrass found that, while the software licensing costs of Windows was higher than Linux, the highest cost was in managing traditional Windows infrastructure.
"It's the people that cost the most," he said.
Merrill Lynch's new plans for its information infrastructure call for running much of its Linux applications not on their own physical machines but in virtual machines running on high-end servers. Such a scheme simplifies management and allows for rapid deployment of new Linux "servers" by activating a copy of a stored pre-configured image in as little as 2 minutes 14 seconds.
"We are not trying to promote Linux," Snodgrass said. "We are just trying to reduce the cost of ownership."
Using such virtual Linux servers to store files could cut costs dramatically, he said. Keeping their file systems on Windows servers would have cost the company $600,000 in hardware and five times that to pay for the personnel to manage the servers.
"We know that Linux is not for everything," he said. "But there are not many applications that require more than Linux can give us."
Snodgrass's group proposed replacing the company's Microsoft Exchange servers with a Linux-based solution that would have all the same collaboration features and have a cost savings of 70 percent to 80 percent. However, for other reasons that Snodgrass wouldn't discuss, the company's executives decided to stick with Exchange but outsource the management of the groupware to save money.
Not everyone agrees that Linux saves money, however. Last year, market researcher IDC released a report, heralded by Microsoft, that indicated that the five-year cost of ownership for four out of five applications would be lower if Microsoft software was used. The sole Linux winner was Web server software, according to the report. (and for the slashdotters/windows users hanging on this bit of hope, note that this study was decimated when it was examined and certain facts, like license renewals being omitted, the timeline favoring unrealistic (over 5 years for the same release) use of windows, no hardware upgrades for newer versions of windows, no accounting for the fact that linux/unix admins can run more systems per admin, no patching/crashing problems with windows, downtime costs, and more).
Snodgrass said he wasn't familiar with the study, but his own data indicated that running virtual Linux servers saves a lot of money compared with running those same services under Windows.
"We've done our numbers, and we are a bank, so we know our numbers," he said.
Other companies apparently have crunched the numbers and come to the same conclusion.
Telecommunications provider Verizon disclosed that it saved nearly $6 million in equipment costs by moving its programmers to Linux from proprietary-Unix and Windows workstations. In October 2001, Amazon.com revealed that it had replaced Web application servers running on a proprietary-Unix platform with Linux, saving millions of dollars.
Snodgrass said the next target for deploying Linux could be on the desktop. The company plans to do a pilot project that will allow thin clients--computers with minimal hardware requirements--to be used as workstations. The applications would actually run on Linux and Windows terminal servers. To the user, the result would be the same, but to the company's
I hope the people making these sorts of decisions in developing countries realize that there are hidden costs involved in going to Linux. In India, for example, I am sure there are oodles of MCSEs that can click their way to a semi-functional network, but are there enough people familar with *nix to handle a major shift to Linux? I think not.
Not that this is a permanent roadblock, but it's something they need to be aware of. They have to realize that if something goes bad and they aren't with someone like IBM/Redhat, they might be screwed if they don't have geeks on hand to tackle the problem.
dmiessler.com -- grep understanding knowledge
Personally I can't evaluate ROI, it's not my job. But Linux and Windows isn't like comparing a hammer to a screw driver. They are one in the same. Multiple server platforms are hell to administrate. Frankly any company worth it's beans only goes with one server platform.
Going FreeBSD for the web box, Oracle and Linux for the application server, and Windows for the file servers, just isn't piratical. When you choose a system unless there is very unusual circumstances you only go with one platform.
Which that the particular platform must do it all. Personally I am a little partial to Windows Servers, they have made huge leaps and bounds. Domains makes administration a breeze, DFS is great for large companies managing websites (even if you are not using the Sharepoint extensions), and frankly it will always be easier to train the help desk people to do basic user administration on Windows any day of the week.
To me that would be like comparing a cordless drill versus a cordless screwdriver.
Linux is made in most parts of the world. Many local goverments must consider locally made products before buying from outside of the county, state, country etc.
Anyone one want to dig up a list of countries where work on linux has been done and then find out how many of them have offical logos (like this or this) and then find out what rules apply and come up with a nice mixed image?
Try making a formula in OO.o then try to open it in msword. There is nothing where the formula was. Pretty anoying as it means that i can't work on my math assignments at school. But apart from that i'm on you side. I find that the the conversion works pretty good too.
/Esben
"Nobody really checks their email any more. They just delete their spam"
Perhaps StarOffice is the right answer to the wrong question. Most of the functions for which we use a computer are very basic - text entry, messaging, numerical spreadsheets. MSOffice has built critical mass because it has all the functions that you might ever need, even if you use them only once every six months.
If you are a large employer, then it's probably in your interest to reduce the number of functions in the software that you give to your workers. If they need a car, you don't give them a Ferrari, do you? What do council workers really do? My guess is that mostly they are interpreting text (ie laws) and transmitting their interpretations to other people, either as text or email. If you can build templates in a basic text processor that will output as a letter, then you don't need to worry too much about having sophisticated word processing. That way they don't waste time playing around with complex programs, and they have fewer opportunities to pursue extra-curricular activities while at work.
The thing is, the Microsoft programs are so good at what they do, everyone has organised their work processes around it. If you could re-engineer those processes, a little, then you could probably significanly reduce the sophistication of the programs that you need. So instead of trying to fit a square peg into a round hole, think about changing the shape of the hole a little.
The lesson is that the world starves for a cheap and robust alternative to Microsoft Windows.
There are two alternatives:
1) Linux. If the usability problems are solved, it may have a chance.
2) OS X. Apple does not understand that they can take big revenge on Microsoft by releasing OS X for 80x86.
Especially in the short-term future that Microsoft will switch to subscription-based computing, more and more will seek solutions outside of Microsoft.
As a long term unix developer who tried a job where windows was mandated:
.NET, yes, cloning Java is a good idea if you can't bring yourself to actually use something not invented here. But people still have to deal with the utterly brain dead attitude of windows, and Windows.Forms is still the absolute worst GUI toolkit in use... You still end up having to use COM, and anyway, why the hell wouldn't you just use Java unless you are a complete MS donkey?
It is an absolute nightmare to do anything on Windows that isn't explicitly allowed by Microsoft.
Have you ever tried to debug some random piece of crap VB dll or vbscript ( two of the four current VB dialects... vb.net, vb6, vbs, vba )? Its a fuckload harder than a horrible shell or perl script. Python scripts are pretty hard to make truly horrible, so those are usually even easier to debug.
COM is really just a horrible hack to make people think there is a C++ abi on Windows. It is an absolute disgrace to actually use. This is the reason so much is done in VB on Windows. Microsoft have made C and C++ into a completely useless platform for doing anything quick. There are over 30 different types of string used in the MS apis... what does that tell you?
Every api seems to have from 9 to 35 arguments. Nobody knows what they are for... its a cut and paste job from MSDN, yet again... and then we get on to business processes.
People start off with a spreadsheet or a word document. They add macros to it. They expand it. They go fucking insane. The next thing you know you are expected to work out what a fucking idiot has created in the worst language known to man, VBA. There are so many random limitations in this crud that even the bog standard excel user hits them on his first macro, and starts making up crazy work arounds, each different than the other. Fuck you, Joel Spoelsky..... . I can't believe that guy is proud of his "Excel macro strategy".
And before you say
On unix, the first thing is that I have choice... I don't have to go with Apache, or Tux, or publicfile, or roxen, or zope, or roll my own with twisted , my current favorite trick. On windows, if you don't use IIS, you are likely to get screwed over at any point.
Now, be honest. You tried to use unix but you got scared. "Mummy, theres no drive letters! I'm lost!!!!! Waaaaaah!!!!". You didn't want to know what was going on. Windows protects you from knowing what the hell you are doing by restricting you to do only what their focus groups tell them. Have you ever actually worked out what was happening when something broke on Windows? Or did you just give up and abandon that functionality, and blame it on Microsoft? Microsoft, in their incompetence, provide a great scapegoat for Windows developers. If they had to use an Open Source system, this excuse would become fairly hollow...
Anyway, when you have a problem on Unix you don't ever reach some inscrutable, impenetrable barrier. You can look at what every component does, and if required, dive into the source and fix it. There are no artificial limits. The fact that anyone can look at the source means that people are less inclined to publish crappy code... And this effect increases with time.
To your "advantages":
DFS - please. This is a dodgy hack of SMB - it is not "distributed" in any real sense. OpenAFS is about as good as gets there, maybe Coda when it gets stable...
User administration: Huh? Can your helpdesk staff not learn a web front end to do this? Its not very hard to find one.... eg webmin, linuxconf. And this kind of thing is easy to customise - ie force your staff to put the required info..
and frankly it will always be easier
As soon as someone uses the word "frankly", it means "I'm going to say something completely unsupported and expect you to believe it."
Comparing windows to unix is like comparing a swiss pen knife to a fully equipped machine shop, with almost every tool available to you to use. Except you can fit it in your pocket....
Down in florida a couple of years, a city converted. Jefferson county, CO runs Linux on desktop. Apparently, they did it the intellegent way some time ago. They let the user decide, by giving them choice. runninng NT/2000 with the current MS office OR upgrading their hardware and using Linux of which these were about the same costs. I understand that first year the offer was taken up by a small percentage, but the next year quite a few ppl took it up as the MS ppl were getting starved on CPU cycles. Apparently, the top hardware was 586's with 64 and 128 M rams. Hard to get things done when MS keeps demanding more, but the group is not going too fork out the increase in hardware and support costs.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Have you ever tried to debug some random piece of crap VB dll or vbscript
Yes I have and its very easy, even when the VB is being called from MSVC its a doddle to debug. If you find debugging VB hard you really need to get out of development and find alternative employment, I suggest McDonalds along with thr rest of the failed dot commers
COM is really just a horrible hack to make people think there is a C++ abi on Windows
Of course it is because we all know that its impossible to write interoperable components in anything other than C++.
Every api seems to have from 9 to 35 arguments. Nobody knows what they are for... its a cut and paste job from MSDN
Total bullshit. Try reading while your are cutting, it might expand your mind a bit. Not everyone finds coding as difficult as you seem to.
The next thing you know you are expected to work out what a fucking idiot has created
Ahh I see now. You are totally clueless so its the fault of the user then.You will go a long way with that attitude .
Do not try to read the dupe, thats impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth
What truth?
There is no dupe
I never said .NET was bad, but after all, it is still a Java clone.
.NET is useful, but I for one am hoping that its main use will be to get Sun to get its act together, and admit to a difference between the VM and the language, sort out JNI, get rid of checked exceptions, etc etc.
The point is, if you were starting fresh, why on earth would you use a tool beholden to MS? The only advantage is if you are already stuck on windows and would like to dig a deeper hole.
And Mono is nice, but until MS indemnify them against patent infringement claims its really hard to use without getting scared.
More languages? Really?
I agree that
Ummm, I think the President (or was it Prime Minister) of India would disagree with you there, and in fact would say the exact opposite. He said recently that India should embrace open source to support its local IT industry, with the implication to stop sending so much money abroad to Microsoft!
Female Prison Rape in NY
I'm glad you liked the talk. Personally, I thought it was far too much waffle. :)
It's true that the success of our email system has increased the value of Linux in the eyes of TPTB, but the fact remains that we are only *considering* Linux as a possibility. Just as we are considering Windows, Netware and various proprietary versions of Unix.
Why is this a problem ?
They will be looking at a smooth transition, not a big bang, some people may continue with Windows boxes for a long time. These and those moved to Linux are still going to want to arrange meetings/... with each other. The trouble is that the MAPI protocol used in not known and there are no open source clients/servers.
We need to reverse engineer the current M$ MAPI protocols so that open source clients/servers can be written. The key to the success of this project is going to be seamless continuity of end user work while desktop and server machines are migrated one by one.
Does anyone know of tools other than ximian connector and bynari ?
OpenOffice does the .doc, .xls & .ppt well enough.
Evolution/kmail does the email well enough (smtp).
``Well enough'' means can interoperate in terms of protocol and file/wire formats.
I just wrote a letter to my local council (which was not mentioned in the article) encouraging them
2 135726,00. html
f d_top
to follow Newham's lead. I didn't write it very well, but if anyone wants to copy bits of it to send to their council...
Dear Councillors,
A draw your attention to the following article:
http://news.zdnet.co.uk/story/0,,t272-s
In it, it is mentioned that "Newham in London and Nottingham City Council, are
examining the feasibility of shifting all their 11,500 staff desktop
computers from Windows to Linux with open source desktop applications by the
end of the year". It is also mentioned that such a move is being considered
by Barking and Dagenham, Hackney, Havering, Redbridge, Thanet, Tower Hamlets
and Waltham Forest.
I was wondering whether Greenwich Council might also consider such a move. As
a resident of Greenwich I think it would be a good idea for the following
reasons:
-Studies have show that significant cost savings can be achieved by switching
to Linux. http://news.com.com/2100-1016_3-1014287.html?tag=
-I do not believe it is right that some of the money I pay in council tax
should find it's way to Microsoft, a convicted monopolist.
-I believe that all government documents should be stored in an open format.
Word documents are not open.
Yours sincerely,
OpenOffice is great because they don't want to force you to upgrade all the time by breaking the format.
Several years ago, I got kicked out of a meeting. The company was making a decision involving tens of millions of dollars based on the results of a large complicated spreadsheet. I asked to see the original specification for the spreadsheet. I asked to see the results of the test plan that would give us some faith that the spreadsheet was correct. At some point I said, "If I developed the real-time software the same way you develop spreadsheets, the company would fire my ass!" and they kicked me out.