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Lockheed Martin to Build Nuclear Powered Spacecraft

LouisvilleDebugger writes "The BBC reports that Lockheed Martin have received a $6M contract to develop the nuclear powered JIMO, or Jupiter Icy Moons Orbiter. (According to the NASA project site, the first probes would not launch before 2011 due to development lead time.) On arrival at Jupiter, the extra power allows the probe to orbit each of three of the Galilean moons (Ganymede, Callisto, and most challenging from a radiation exposure standpoint, Europa) in turn, presumably helping to establish the possibility of liquid water and hence, life within the Jovian system. JIMO is a sub-project of Project Prometheus, initiated by NASA this year for the purpose of demonstrating that nuclear powered and propelled spacecraft may be safely designed and tested."

43 of 334 comments (clear)

  1. safe? by Gorny · · Score: 3, Insightful

    "JIMO is a sub-project of Project Prometheus, initiated by NASA this year for the purpose of demonstrating that nuclear powered and propelled spacecraft may be safely designed and tested."

    Do they really think that it can be completely safe? What if it crashes onto earth just after launch? Or it blows up in the air, so radioactive particles get spread all around?

    --
    Alan Perlis once said: "A language that doesn't affect the way you think about programming, is not worth knowing"
    1. Re:safe? by Mr2cents · · Score: 4, Informative

      I'm pretty sure the material is well-protected. Also, nuclear-powered space-probes have already been launched (V'ger, Viking landers too I think).

      --
      "It's too bad that stupidity isn't painful." - Anton LaVey
    2. Re:safe? by DarkSarin · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Two things: they don't state COMPLETELY safe--nothing is that. What if your steering goes out tomorrow while your driving? What if your gas tank leaks and you blow up? What if...?

      Second, the chances of it blowing up in the air a la Challenger are slim. Granted it only takes once, but hey, there's no guarantee we'll all wake up tomorrow without some idiot gassing the planet.

      The fact is that there are myriad possibilities for disaster in any big project, and the only thing any one person can do is to try to prepare for eventualities. Don't shoot down a project like this simply because it's nuclear. We all hear that word and think of Cherynobl (spelling?), Hiroshima and similar incedents. But just because it is nuclear powered doesn't mean that it's going to end like K-19: Widowmaker.

      Think abou this: if we can do this it will forward research about our solar system by a long shot, which is something we must have if we ever hope to explore further out.

      --
      "We don't know what we are doing, but we are doing it very carefully,..." Wherry, R.J. Personnel Psychology (1995)
    3. Re:safe? by T5 · · Score: 5, Informative

      Nothing's completely safe. Fossil fuels aren't safe. Hydrogen isn't safe. Cows' bad breath will be the death of us all. Life is a risk-management exercise. So is designing space vehicles.

      I work with some of the folks who are responsible for safety matters regarding hazardous/radioactive material aboard spacecraft. Believe me when I tell you that the utmost importance is placed on the "what-if's" of any given launch failure mode. The containers that house the radioactive material are ridiculously well scrutinized and tested, the failure scenarios are taken into consideration, including atmospheric dispersion of debris from a launch failure.

      We've used plutonium powered modules for years now as a source of long-lasting (30 years or so) electrical power. Those capsules are some of the toughest, most durable, explosion-proof, reentry-proof items ever created.

      For example, for one space mission, 25 sample power capsules were made for testing by using them as artillery projectiles fired by a cannon into a solid concrete wall. This induced many times the stress these capsules would ever see in even the most horrific failure of the launch vehicle. Of the 25, only one showed any sign of a stress-related crack. This tiny crack set into motion a full review of the capsule manufacturing process, a study of the atmospheric effects of a failed launch vehicle, and other safety-related processes that delayed the launch for about a year.

      Whereas these newer power sources are going to be a challenge, they'll be well thought out, or they won't go.

    4. Re:safe? by RestiffBard · · Score: 4, Funny

      Hey now, I live in Hampton Roads, VA pretty close to Northropt Grumman/Newport News Shipbuilding where they build nuclear subs and carriers. You don't see me scratching my third head and worrying about one of the boats sinking do you?

      --
      - /* dead coders leave no comments */
    5. Re:safe? by wulfhound · · Score: 5, Insightful

      In any case, building a nuclear containment vessel strong enough to withstand external fire followed by a terminal-velocity plunge in to the sea is quite possible. Also, the material in an unstarted (uranium) nuclear reactor is not all that radiotoxic. You wouldn't want to handle it for long periods without protective clothing, but it has nothing like the lethality of plutonium or nuclear waste. Once the reactor has been running a little while it becomes much more dangerous, but I guess they plan to start the main reactor from a much smaller (hot) neutron source once the thing is a safe distance from the Earth.

    6. Re:safe? by SEWilco · · Score: 3, Informative

      What if a volcano blasts a mountain of uranium into the air? What if your nearest coal-burning power plant releases 13 tons of uranium and thorium a year?

    7. Re:safe? by mesocyclone · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Why is everyone so afraid of a little bit of radioactivity? Folks, especially slashdotters with the capability to read technical stuff and work with powers of ten, should just look at the issue a bit.

      Radioactive material is toxic. So is rocket exhaust. So are zillions of other things in our environment, including all sorts of natural stuff in our food and our air. There is nothing magic or mysterious about radioactivity toxicity.

      Your smoke detector contains a radioactive pellet. If you don't eat the thing, you are fine. Even if you do, you are probably okay (if a bit crazy). Dust contains radioactive materials. A large number of nuclear bombs have been exploded in the atmosphere, release lots of plutonium and other radioactive elements (the things are nowhere close to 100% efficient). We are still alive. Phosphorous products often have a raised level of radioactivity. If you are a camper with a Coleman lantern, the lantern mantles are radioactive. If you fly in an airplane or go to high altitudes (Denver, anyone), you are exposed to a lot of ionizing radiation (compared to sea level). Like getting a tan? You get it from ionizing radiation( UV rays).

      Unless you are a fool, you wouldn't eat a gram of cyanide. Likewise, I wouldn't recommend eating a gram of a space probe's nuclear reactor. But that isn't going to happen!

      Even if all the material were released into the environment (which is highly unlikely), the chances of harm to any one person are extremely low. You would experience far more danger driving to see the launch or just plugging in your computer!

      Since the reactor is not activated until it is well away from earth, at launch it contains only uranium. Uranium is all over the place. Here in the Phoenix, AZ area there are significant concentrations in the soil in many areas where people live. My geiger counter gets 26 counts per minute in my driveway, but only 16 counts if it is sitting on top of the engine block of my car in the driveway. Wow! My driveway is radioactive. I guess I am doomed!

      The uranium in a never fired nuclear reactor is no more dangerous than the uranium in soil - it is just more concentrated and has a different isotopic ratio (enriched reactor uranium is not more radioactive than unenriched - it just has a more U-235 (and less U-238). If it is dispersed in an explosion, it is no more dangerous than a dust storm here in this large metropolian area!

      Anti-nuclear activists, a totally innumerate and scientifically ignorant press, the irrational conflation of nuclear weapons and nuclear power, and the unwillingness of people to look seriously at the issue have created a nuclear phobia in much of the western world.

      --

      The only good weather is bad weather.

    8. Re:safe? by gfody · · Score: 3, Funny

      every day that goes by either..
      -aliens invade and destroy all of humanity
      -or they dont

      50/50 chance, you never know

      --

      bite my glorious golden ass.
  2. For 6 Million? by saden1 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Should that have said 6 Million? You can't build anything these days for 6 million. Hell, payroll alone will be 6 million.

    --

    -----
    One is born into aristocracy, but mediocrity can only be achieved through hard work.
    1. Re:For 6 Million? by wulfhound · · Score: 4, Informative

      It's a design study, not the building of a complete operational spacecraft.

      The pessimist in me says this one will be cancelled long before it ever launches :(

  3. If they'd stop using the word nuclear... by loucura! · · Score: 4, Insightful

    maybe this thing would have a chance of getting off the ground. Unfortunately the enviroloonies, are so terrified of the word 'nuclear' that any project that has it attached will get protested into the ground...

    --
    Black and grey are both shades of white.
    1. Re:If they'd stop using the word nuclear... by 73939133 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Unfortunately the enviroloonies, are so terrified of the word 'nuclear' that any project that has it attached will get protested into the ground...

      The Bush administration and conservatives are terrified of the word "nuclear" as well--when it applies to any device not under US control.

      The problem with nuclear power is not primarily the occasional accident, it's the deliberate use by nations and groups for war and terrorist acts. And, while it may not scare Americans to let the US military have access to fission and fusion devices in orbit, it should scare everybody else.

      The Iraq war has proven that the US is unwilling to take into account the wishes of the international community and that the US will decide unilaterally global policy. It doesn't even matter whether the US decision was right in this case--monarchs and dictators also often make good decisions. All of that may seem fine to Americans, but the rest of the world wonders what is so democratic about having 300 million Americans make decisions for 6 billion non-Americans.

    2. Re:If they'd stop using the word nuclear... by Zeio · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The sad thing about the fork in this story leading to crap like this is that people politicize scientific endeavors to get floor time. Nuclear happens to be an unfortunate keyword.

      I for one do not want to sit in the dark ages and think that if NASA determines it best to use fission reactors to best perform deep space studies, so be it. Fanatics will fantasize about a cabal of technophiles, Illuminati and energy moguls and the x-files guys all hanging out in a dastardly plan to bring about Armageddon because you know, all these rich powerful people really want say, a nuclear war so they can live out their days in a bunker on a destroyed earth because that's the very definition of FUN! It's like people in a vocal minority to maraud around looking to bring Bush or the liberal establishment or [name your group to blame everything on here ]into every discussion.

      All countries "are". They are not good. They are not evil. They are all unilateralist whenever they can afford to be. If you want others to believe in your morality, grab an orange robe and become a Buddhist monk. Otherwise, you're a money grubber just like the rest of us.

      Those who bet on apocalypse the end of days, bet against a bright future basically always lose. It's not wise to sell short on the progressive countries of the world. Luddites who hearken back to the good ole days are essentially insane.

      Now as far as nuclear devices with regards to the US - the US has been in possession of nuclear weapons the longest and has been able to refrain from using them the longest (Time since Nagasaki, as in, longest period of years since they were last used in war) despite the apparent efficacy of nuclear attack in bringing WW2 to a close.. They are staggeringly expensive and have little military value (until recently, the below ground penetrating missile/bomb design and nuclear torpedoes are also effective, both of these are tactical applications) they are essentially a threat over population centers. The US would not use strategic weapons unless they are used upon the US. Strategic weapons are essentially possessed only by France, Britain, Russia, China, US (and a lesser extent, India, Pakistan). They are effectively deterrence in that populations centers will be totally destroyed if the US is attacked. I don't foresee the preemptive use of strategic weapons nor is there any evidence of that in US nuclear posturing doctrine, which is publicly available:
      FAS NPR , and Globalsecurity NPR, and DefenseLINK NPR.

      The new preemptive nuclear strike parts of the doctrine basically wants to make a case for the use of tactical nuclear weapons against well fortified targets. Given that a swift conventional campaign in Iraq was so politically painful for the US, I seriously doubt that the US will ever use tactical nukes, much less preemptively. I think the document says it best: It's a nuclear posturing document. Anyone can break their own doctrine or even a SALT treaty anytime they want (See DPRK for an example of violating agreements). You think "dismantled" warheads aren't ready to go at Pentax? The modification of the nuclear posturing to say we will consider the use of preemptive nuclear strike in response to threats from Nuclear/Chemical/Biological attack or threat is simply this: Terrorist of the world and Countries of the world: Think long and hard about turning a blind eye or abetting subversive organizations that place US citizens under a potential deadly threat.

      Strategic Weapons and the Cuban Missile Crisis: On October 25, 1962, Castro begged in a letter to Khruschev to preemptively strike the US. Khruschev was essentially shocked that Castro didn't get it. The posturing wasn't designed to start a strategic nuclear war, which Khruschev made clear in a letter to Castro on October 27, 1962,

      --
      Legalize the constitution. Think for yourself question authority.
  4. That's not nuclear, THIS is nuclear! by tgd · · Score: 3, Informative

    Project Orion was the real origin of the concept of using nuclear power in space... and while the political environment changed and didn't allow it to come to being, any of you who've never heard of it and are interested in spaceflight ought to check it out. (The link is just the first link I found on Google, there's actually a great book about it here.

  5. according to the star trek timeline... by ih8apple · · Score: 3, Funny

    ...nuclear-powered space ships should have started launching 10 years ago. So, if Roddenberry's predications continue to be off by 10 years, we should have the eugenics wars soon.

    Khan!!!!!!

    1. Re:according to the star trek timeline... by Rick+Richardson · · Score: 4, Funny

      Roddenberry's timeline would have been 100% accurate except that a generation of engineers wasted 10 years watching a TV show instead of living it.

  6. Europa? by AndroidCat · · Score: 4, Funny
    three of the Galilean moons (Ganymede, Callisto, and most challenging from a radiation exposure standpoint, Europa.

    Oh oh, aren't we suppost to leave Europa alone after 2010? The Monolith is going to be pissed!

    --
    One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
  7. But wait, there's more by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    On arrival at Jupiter, the extra power allows the probe to orbit each of three of the Galilean moons (Ganymede, Callisto, and most challenging from a radiation exposure standpoint, Europa) in turn, presumably helping to establish the possibility of liquid water and hence, life within the Jovian system.

    The probe will then dump its nuclear waste onto these moons, thereby killing that life.

  8. Bad Timing by drdale · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It is probably too soon after Columbia for them to start talking publicly about this kind of project---confidence in NASA isn't exactly at a high now. Nuclear power has already been used for satellites, and there have been some scary moments when these satellites have come back down. This probe, at least, would not be designed to come back to the Earth. But while IANARS (I am not a rocket scientist), it seems like launch vehicles still have a dismaying tendency to blow up with some regularity, and if NASA scatters radioactive isotopes all over the place then that could set space exploration back decades. Oh, and kill a lot of stuff.

    --
    This post is dedicated to all of those /.ers who do not dedicate their posts to themselves.
  9. Re:Interesting by borgboy · · Score: 4, Funny

    Inverse square wave is a mother, ain't it?

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    meh.
  10. And sticking out the back of the craft... by Faust7 · · Score: 4, Funny

    ...a small, strangely coffee-grinder-like device labeled "Mr. Fusion."

  11. Just thought of something... by Mr2cents · · Score: 4, Funny

    What if the launch goes wrong quite late and the nuclear reactor hits, for example, North-Korea.. That would be quite stressing for diplomats, no?

    --
    "It's too bad that stupidity isn't painful." - Anton LaVey
  12. Re:Io by Manhigh · · Score: 4, Informative

    The radiation environment at Europa is a challenge to design around. Sending the craft to Io would probably require so much more radiation shielding for the electronics (ie weight) as to make the mission infeasible.

    Also, recent studies have indicated that Callisto and Ganymede might contain subterranean water, making the possibility of life greater there than at Io.

    --
    "Open the pod by doors, Hal" > "I'm afraid I can't do that, Dave" sudo "Open the pod bay doors, Hal" > alright
  13. Cassini (the Saturn probe) was nuclear by Jon+Abbott · · Score: 5, Informative

    It looks like nobody has said this yet, so I'll pitch in -- the Cassini space probe, which was launched on October 15, 1997, was also nuclear-powered. There were protests around NASA right before the launch took place, but it went up anyway without a hitch.

    According to JPL's Cassini "safety" page, they explain that the probe is powered by three radioisotope thermoelectric generators (RTGs) which provide energy by the natural radioactive decay of Pu-238. This isn't fission or fusion at work, but merely the harvesting of heat generated by the radioactive decay. The big question for environmentalists (and NASA) was whether these RTGs would remain contained in the event of a launch disaster.

    The big difference between the RTGs of Cassini and the nuclear technology in JIMO is that JPL wants to have a full-fledged nuclear fission reactor this time around. This would obviously provide a lot more power for the mission, at the expense of extreme public scrutiny. It will be interesting to see how this situation pans out.

    1. Re:Cassini (the Saturn probe) was nuclear by morcheeba · · Score: 4, Informative

      Very close. Cassini and virtually all other deep-space probes used RTGs because solar power is not nearly as effective at such great distances from the sun than on earth.

      The real big difference is that they're now using nuclear to provide propulsion. The ion drive is really cool (but not because I wrote a little software for one of the early test satellites :)

      To develop thrust in space, you basically have to eject some sort of particle with a given mass and speed. The traditional approach uses rocket fuel or hydrazine as the mass, and uses the potential energy of the chemical bonds to provide the velocity. Ion drives bring just the mass portion of the equation on the spacecraft (remember, it's insanely expensive to lift weight into space). To provide thrust, the ions are accelerated using electricity -- electricity is free near the earth, or in the case of deep space probes, can be generated by nuclear means far more efficiently than other means.

      So, to summerize, in traditional systems, thruster mass and energy are closely coupled (i.e. chemical reaction), while in ion drives, the two are seperated so that the most efficient storage methods can be used.

  14. Nuclear Propelled, Not Powered, Is The Big Deal by reallocate · · Score: 4, Informative

    Lots of spacecraft have been nuclear powered. This one will use nuclear energy to create propulsion. That's the new part.

    --
    -- Slashdot: When Public Access TV Says "No"
  15. Cassini wasnt the only one by Manhigh · · Score: 3, Informative

    Voyager 1 and 2, and pretty much every other spacecraft thats every gone out beyond Mars' orbit has been powered by RTGs.

    --
    "Open the pod by doors, Hal" > "I'm afraid I can't do that, Dave" sudo "Open the pod bay doors, Hal" > alright
  16. Re:Liquid water, and hence, life. by s20451 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Absolutely everywhere on Earth that there is liquid water, there is life. As long as there is liquid water, life can exist in virtually any environment, deriving power from oxygen, sunlight, sulfide, nitrate, whatever. Life can exist under extreme pressure conditions, hyper-saline conditions, even radioactive conditions.

    If we found liquid water on Europa and there was no life, an excellent research question would be, "why not? why is Earth special?". So either way, interesting results would be returned.

    --
    Toronto-area transit rider? Rate your ride.
  17. Re:how does nuke==propulsion in space? by Manhigh · · Score: 4, Informative

    Electric Propulsion (Ion Propulsion)

    Take Xenon or Krypton, use some electrical energy to ionize it, and use some more electrical energy to propel the ions out the back of your spacecraft much faster than you could ever propel the products of chemical combustion. Thus you get more momentum, gram for gram of propellant, than you would get from chemical propulsion.

    Solar electric propulsion has been done before, such as Deep Space 1. But for going out to Jupiter with such a large payload, the Sun's energy is just not enough.

    --
    "Open the pod by doors, Hal" > "I'm afraid I can't do that, Dave" sudo "Open the pod bay doors, Hal" > alright
  18. The only way to make space exploration practical by earthforce_1 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Space exploration via chemical propellants will never be economically viable in the large scale. We simply *must* research and develop much more powerful propulsion systems if we are ever to get off this planet in a big way. And yes, it is dangerous. There will be accidents, and loss of life. As long as this is not the result of negligance or outright stupidity, it is a necessary price we must pay as a species for this knowledge. Prometheus was a superb choice name for this project. Man is literally learning how to tame sunfire. There were countless accidents, mistakes and deaths before we learned how to make large scale passenger transportation by air practical. When the first first commercial jetliner (Dehaviland comet) with pressurized cabins was developed, they found out that the cyclic stresses from the pressure changes caused metal fatigue on the thin outer skin, causing the windows to eventually pop out in flight. Oops... But eventually we got it more or less right.

    The same is true with spacecraft. Rocket science IS hard. It will take a lot of trial and error effort before we really learn how to do it right. We are still barely past the equivalent of the Wright brothers era of space exploration.

    --
    My rights don't need management.
  19. UN Space Law by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting


    THE LIABILITY TREATY
    The Convention on International Liability for Damage Caused by Space Objects, the Liability Treaty, sets the minimum standards for establishing the liability for space faring nations for launch or spaceflight activities which could cause health, property, or environmental damage outside the launching state's borders.

    The treaty, written in 1972, assigns the liability for a spacecraft causing damage to the Earth or to an airplane to the launching state regardless of fault. Damaged property must be restored to prior condition in accordance with international law and the principles of justice and equity. If a spacecraft collides with another spacecraft in space the liability is assigned based on the determination of negligence or malicious intent and the damages awarded as determined by international law.

    If the launching state wishes to contest the damage award with the damaged state, the Liability Treaty states that both nations should go first through diplomatic channels and, if no satisfaction or resolution is achieved, a claims commission can be established. No case has ever gotten to this point. In fact, there has only been one case handled under the Liability Treaty: Cosmos 954.

    Cosmos 954 was a Soviet Radar Ocean Reconnaissance Satellite (RORSAT) which was powered by a nuclear reactor. Previous Soviet missions using such technology would split the reactor from the parent body of the spacecraft and boost the radioactive material into a higher orbit where the reactor would remain for more than 600 years which was well beyond the life of the radioactive material. Cosmos 954 had a special problem; it went out of control and the technicians were unable to separate the reactor from the spacecraft's parent body.

    In late January 1978, Cosmos 954 came crashing into the Great Slave Lake area of Canada spewing debris along a 500 mile footprint. As luck would have it the radioactive portion of the craft fell near a trapper's camp. The trapper looked at the unusual phenomenon and then left it alone. The Canadian Air Force later found the piece and the trapper and took both back to Yellowknife, N.T. where the trapper was found to be in good health and the reactor pieces were impounded. After the cleanup, the Canadian Government sent a $15 million bill to the Soviets. The Soviets paid less than half of this amount and agreed not to take back the spacecraft. The Canadians were happy with the amount they received and were happier still that the Soviets had acknowledged the spacecraft's existence. The Soviets had abided by the Liability Treaty.

  20. Why go to Jupiters moons? by Aardpig · · Score: 5, Interesting

    For those who wonder why Jupiters moons are interesting, and worth visiting, I'll try to give a brief summary here. JIMO will be visiting Jupiters four Galilean moons, named after their initial discovery by Galileo Galilei (through his now-famous telescope). In order of distance from Jupiter, they are Io, Europa, Ganymede and Callisto.

    Io is the only moon in the solar system to show volcanic activity; plumes of gas ejected from its volcanos, rising up to 250km above the surface, have been detected from Earth. The energy to keep the interior of Io molten comes from the tidal friction generated as the moon moves through Jupiter's strong gravitation field. Io is a great laboratory for understanding volcanic activity in general.

    Europa, the next moon out, is one of the most likely places for life to exist in the Solar System (excepting, of course, Earth). Images of the moon reveal a very smooth surface (in fact, the smoothest in the Solar System), criss-crossed by long, narrow, straight features. These features appear to be fissures in the surface; combined with the fact that the surface is almost pure ice (which we know from spectroscopy studies), it appears that Europa may have a large sub-surface ocean of liquid water, covered by a crust of ice.

    Support for the existence of this ocean comes from the discovery of ice rafts on the surface, much like found in polar regions on Earth, and from the detection of a weak magnetic field by the Galileo spacecraft. Europa is too small to have its own magnetic field, but if it contains a large quantity of conducting fluid (such as water with a high concentration of dissolved minerals), then its motion through Jupiters magnetic field will generate a field of its own.

    The significance of the sub-surface water on Europa is that liquid water is one of the principal prerequesites for life (as we know it). Speculation as to whether life does indeed exist on Europa is ongoing; to find out, a cryobot/hydrobot mission to the moon is required. The cryobot would melt its way through the icy crust, and the hydrobot would descend through this hole and explore the oceans underneath. Interest incryobot/hydrobot technology was spurred on by the discovery of Lake Vostok in Antarctica, the world's fourth-largest freshwater lake, which is trapped under 2km of ice sheet, and may contain prehistoric lifeforms.

    Ganymede is the largest moon in the Solar System, larger even than the planet Mercury. Both Ganymede and Callisto have heavily-cratered surfaces, indicative of millenia of meteorite bombardment. Both are a mixture of rock and ice, although the detection of a weak magnetic field around Callisto indicates that it may have a sub-surface ocean, like Europa. The existence of this ocean is puzzling, since Callisto is too far from Jupiter for tidal heating to be able to melt ice. Some have suggested that Calliso's ocean contains an antifreeze (maybe ammonia), which keeps the water liquid well below its normal solidification temperature.

    IMHO, I think Europa is the jewel in the crown of the Galilean moons, due to the possibility that life may exist there. Unfortunately, as one can tell from JIMO's full name (Jupiter Icy Moons Orbiter), there are no plans to land on this fascinating world. In "2010: Odyssey Two", Arthur C. Clarke writes about a manned landing on Europa which discovers life; it would be great for me to see this happen in my lifetime, let alone by 2010.

    --
    Tubal-Cain smokes the white owl.
  21. Re:how does nuke==propulsion in space? by Squarewav · · Score: 3, Informative

    Something like this

    The idea is to use something like hydrogen that when exposed to the reactor will couse great amounts of energy to be expeled useing a minimum amount of fuel

  22. Yes by Keebler71 · · Score: 4, Informative
    Yes... this IS completely safe. First off, most people have no idea what nuclear power for space really means. This includes the poster, as the article mentions both nuclear propulsion and nuclear power which are two very different things. This link does a pretty good job of explaining various space nuclear power programs.

    Oh, and for all those who believe that we should be designing a manned mission to Mars, let me be perfectly clear:

    The only way we will get humans to Mars will be using nuclear propulsion and nuclear power sources(RTGs). Period.

    And for those who question the safety of launching RTGs... this link describes the cases where this has already happened. RTGs have survived abort detonations of REAL missions right after launch with no radiation leakage. They have also survived re-entry (Apollo 13) with no leakage. The safety technology is mature and works.

    This is our only ticket for orbitter missions to the outer planets.

    --
    "It takes considerable knowledge just to realize the extent of your own ignorance." - Thomas Sowell
  23. On balance I say exploration is worth the risk. by nounderscores · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Greenpeace reports that between 1950 and 1993 there have been 380 nuclear weapons accidents, some involving the accidental "dirty bomb" incidents, such as the dispersion of nuclear materials over Palomares in southern Spain.

    Now according to the the National Human Radiobiology Tissue Repository who studied the Palomares incident as well as many other cases, a 78 year old person with elevated Pu in their bones will only have a 0.14285 probability of dying this year, whereas a normal american 78 year old will have an average probaility of dying this year of 0.12780.

    We're already dropping nuclear material all over ourselves, and for the most part, you aren't going to hear about it until it's declassified.

    Furthermore, have you been to Hiroshima and stood under the peace dome? Have you seen the children playing in the schools at Nagasaki?

    The oppertunites for using peaceful nuclear power to explore space far outweigh the risks. Those accidents haven't degraded my environmental quality. I'm sure that a deliberate attack on myself would, but even that will heal with time.

    We are talking about the power to reach out and travel the cosmos.

    the chinese ming Emperor Zhu Di built a massive navy which traded extensively in the pacific, reached africa and almost discovered america.

    When Emperor Zhu died, his sucessor was advised to lessen the tax burden of the navy, and burned all the ships. Result? Other more outward looking seafaring nations whipped them.

    If we don't have deep space capability, then we are dead meat when we come across those who do. Especially if they are ex-earth colonists who decide to return. No chance of benevolance through alien genetics there.

    1. Re:On balance I say exploration is worth the risk. by mesocyclone · · Score: 3, Insightful

      From that same National Human Radiobiology Tissue Repository:

      The health effects from plutonium, americium, and uranium intakes by humans, as determined with USTUR data can be summarized in two words, virtually none. A study of the causes of death of USTUR organ donors has been completed. The study showed that the vast majority of USTUR donors died from the same diseases that have caused the deaths of most of the U. S. population, heart disease, strokes, and cancers not necessarily associated with radiation exposure. This is in spite of the fact that the USTUR donors are a biased population in that a number of donors volunteered for the program after having been diagnosed with cancer. The average age at death of USTUR registrants is 63 years (range between 25 and 91 years). The average age of USTUR registrants who are still living is 73 years (range between 30 and 93 years).

      [bold emphasis added]

      --

      The only good weather is bad weather.

  24. Space-based fission reactors by mpaque · · Score: 5, Informative

    There's more information on space-based reactors to b e used in the Jupiter mission at:

    http://spacescience.nasa.gov/missions/prometheus .h tm

    The reactor uses slightly enriched uranium, not plutonium, and is launched 'cold'. The uranium 'fuel' is much less toxic than plutonium. This type of fuel cannot be used to construct a fission bomb, as it contains far too low a concentration of U-235 to produce a nuclear explosion.

    The reactor is launched 'cold', in a shut down state. That means that during launch, there will be no fission reaction products present. The reaction products are the biggest hazard with nuclear fuel, being both radioactive and chemically reactive, prone to dispersing throughout an environment if released. (Radioactive iodine and cesium isotopes being probably the best known examples.) The reactor is not started up until the spacecraft is on an interplanetary trajectory.

    This is not a new technology. The SNAP-10A space reactor power system was launched in 1965. Methods for protecting and encapsulating the fuel elements to prevent dispersal or leakage are well known and tested. (These methods will survive explosions during the launch, as well as uncontrolled re-entry from orbit.)

    1. Re:Space-based fission reactors by Aglassis · · Score: 4, Informative

      If I had points I'd mod you up.

      You are absolutely right. What many people fail to recognize is that there are different levels of radioactivity. If a radionuclide has a long half life it will be less radioactive in the short term. In particular, U-235 and 238 with hundreds of million year half lives (U-238 in the billions) will have very low radioactivity compared to a fission product which may have a fraction of a second half-life. If you don't start up the reactor until it is safely in orbit, then there will be no fission products, and even if it did burn up in the atmosphere, it would have too low radioactivity to even notice.

      --
      Suddenly, the hairy finger of a familiar monkey tapped me on the shoulder. It was time.--G. T.
  25. Clarifications by gratefully+dead · · Score: 4, Informative

    As mentioned earlier, there seems to be some confusion about what sort of nuclear power we are talking about.

    There are three types of nuclear "power" sources in space.

    Radioisotope power- this generates electricity because the decay of the isotope heats a thermocouple junction that generates a voltage. I'll bet this is the kind they are using on the spacecraft in question, and it has been used on many other spacecraft, including the Voyager series. Not much isotope is needed, so even if the spacecraft crashes, minimal contamination would occur.

    Nuclear reactor power- another way to generate electricity in space is to have a full fledged nuclear reactor onboard the spacecraft. These designs are *very* cool. Generally they use liquid sodium as the conduction medium. Remember, mass is the determining factor in the design. To my knowledge these have never been actually used in space.

    Nuclear powered rocket- the most cool rocket ever. Uses a nuclear reactor, that has hydrogen gas "fuel" running through it, superheating that gas. The gas is then ejected out the nozzle at super high speed to provide thrust. There is no electricity generation involved. As mentioned earlier, these rockets are banned by a treaty. None have every launched to my knowledge.

  26. Re:Military application? by Jubedgy · · Score: 3, Funny

    Both the airforce and the army tried building reactors (so far the marines are the only branch that haven't). The airforce one IIRC didn't get past the design phase for a few reasons: They couldn't provide enough shielding w/o excessive weight, and they couldn't ensure that if the plane were shot down there wouldn't be a massive amouunt of contamination. Be that as it may, those reactors were meant to fly huge bombers 24/7 arounnd the Soviet Union...they become moot with the advent of ICBMs.

    Now the army reactor....it was a spectacular failure (ie, it failed spectacularly). One poor guy got pinned to the roof by a control rod! (They had been doing some repairs, and some genius decided to raise a control rod...startup rate went ballistic, water (I believe it was a water reactor) flashed to steam, and other very very bad things. When I was going through power school, it used to be the running joke as to why the army shouldn't run reactors. Anyway, their reactors were intended to power a forward deployed base. They'd just fly in the parts and flip the switch.

    SL-1 (army) link: http://www.radiationworks.com/sl1reactor.htm

    The reason these reactors are feasible for space i due to the fact that...it's space. There won't be any people around, so you only need to shield the instruments. Between that and the small size of the reactor (in terms of power), very little shielding is required.

    --Jubedgy

    --
    Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis hebes
  27. Re:ehmmm! ...NERVA?...anybody? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative
    Nope, this isn't based on NERVA. Nerva uses nuclear-thermal propulsion, while Project Prometheus is developing fission reactors for nuclear-electric propulsion. The JIMO spacecraft will use a ten-or-so kilowatt fission reactor to produce electricity to power an ion drive.

    It's currently thought that electric propulsion will be more efficient than thermal propulsion. The thermal drives produce more thrust than a similar power ion drive, but the ion drive has a far higher specific impulse. Eventually, ion drives will probably be replaced by something like VASIMR or some other similar magneto-plasmadynamic drive. These can be throttled to produce either high thrust or high specific impulse, which would merge the best aspects of NERVA and ion-drive systems into a single electrically powered package.

  28. The Next Frontier (More on Nuclear Space) by idontneedanickname · · Score: 3, Informative

    You should read this article called: Opening the Next Frontier. Shows, step by step how we could expand outwards into the next big frontier... Space, using nuclear powered ships.