Addison UK Server Roadshow for Schools

NeTraverse writes "Addison UK is doing a Linux server roadshow demonstrating Linux at schools throughout the UK. This is a easy way for schools to see how Linux could be implimented in their school. Nice resource for those schools thinking about becoming enlightened. They are demonstating thin client computing using Linux and Windows-to-Linux migration software WinLin Terminal Server from NeTraverse..."

Comments

The Sneeches

[b3k]

I see /. has gone Dr. Seuss on me. We now have * and no * by a persons nick.

"At first, the star bellied ones thought they were the best Sneeches on the beaches and never let the non-star bellied Sneeches join in on their frankfurter roasts and games."

Should I pay for my *?
Will I soon be unable to join in /. frankfurter roasts and games without one?

Re: The Sneeches

[Anonymous Coward]

Not only is that a first post!
It really is his first post!
Congtrats..

Re: The Sneeches

[Anonymous Coward]

Will I soon be unable to join in /. frankfurter roasts and games without one?

LOL!! mod that fucker up crack babies.

implimented linux?

[Anonymous Coward]

This is a easy way for schools to see how Linux could be implimented in their school.

Meybe, but I'd rather impliment good spelling corses first. :-)

Re:implimented linux?

[turbo_magic_hat]

They also mention that Linux is "ultra reliabile". If it was about Windows I'd call it a Freudian slip...

Re:implimented linux?

[iamdrscience]

Hmm... I thought that was just the way the English spelled it...

Come on, don't mod me down, just realise humour.

Re:implimented linux?

[ndogg]

An persons good grammar is good two.

Thin client using Linux...

[jkrise]

With the Windows License (EULA) is there any cost benefit in using Linux as a thin client? We evaluated Citrix and discovered the opposite.

Re:Thin client using Linux...

[sould]

With the Windows License (EULA) is there any cost benefit in using Linux as a thin client?

The winlin link from the article mentions quite a few cost benefits:

...reducing costs and increasing productivity by migrating to a more reliable, cost-effective and high-performance computing platform...

...ensures the significant cost savings necessary to reduce the Total Cost of Ownership of desktop management...

shrug. Adspeak.

More importantly (and they also mention this) - you can use it to ease your users from (expensive) windows to (cheap) linux.

We evaluated Citrix and discovered the opposite.

Citrix doesn't give you the wealth of linux tools + an eventual end to windependence.

Re:Thin client using Linux...

[Read Icculus]

With the Windows License (EULA) is there any cost benefit in using Linux as a thin client?

Huh? What do you mean by "With the Windows (EULA)"?. The way you phrased the question it sounds like you're implying that the Windows EULA is a good thing, or something. Also Citrix costs money, so I wouldn't think it would be a good comparison to the Linux vs. Windows debate. Except that it also a thin-client setup. As you probably know Linux is free and the GPL lets you pretty much do what you want with it. I'd think that would be a considerable benefit for a low-budget institution that wanted to set up a bunch of boxes just to do internet and word processing via a thin-client program. I know that I've saved thousands by installing Linux instead of buying tons of Windows licenses for those same boxes. Although my setup is not a thin-client one.

Re:Thin client using Linux...

[Anonymous Coward]

There are major cost benefits when using _only_ Linux in the terminal system. See LTSP Project [www.ltsp.org].

We've done a small-scale road show to a few local communities here in Finland. We demonstrated the ltsp system with the organisations own old computers (often 5-15 terminals with a 1,2G/512MB server). This approach is harder and takes more preparation than using a prebuilt system (network-booting the nodes) - but it seems the only way to impress the potential customers that their junk computers can actually be taken back to daily work.

The hardware benefits with a Linux-only solution are that nothing needs to be installed to the terminals (no storage media required). With the Windows-solutions I've encountered there had to be a locally installed Windows-system on the terminals as well. The terminal-computers can be anything from early Pentiums to newer ones.

Our experiences show that Linux office suites and browsers, etc. look and feel familiar to new users. They just need to be put to use them for even a short while in order to make the false win-lobbying they've been exposed to vanish. All of this means that the Linux training and transition costs MS is talking about are not quite accurate.

If the organisation insists on using Windows then you can set up two servers: a Linux terminal-server to do most of the work and a separate Windows application server available only to the terminals that really need it (for example special educational software). And there is always the chance to run a Windows emulator on the Linux-terminal server, but to my best understanding some Windows-application licences make you pay by the number of terminal machines rather than by the number of actual users of that software.

HL

Re:Thin client using Linux...

[Arker]

Proprietary software one can use to wean yourself off proprietary software. Hmm.

Methadone for your computer eh?

Re:Thin client using Linux...

[KermitJunior]

"With the Windows License (EULA) is there any cost benefit in using Linux as a thin client? We evaluated Citrix and discovered the opposite." Well, let's see. I just built a complete K12 LTSP project for a school. The clients, with 17" monitors, were $60 each (20 clients) ($1200). THe server is a dual AMD 2400+ with 120G/1G. ($1000). And a 36-port switch for $150. So total USD is under $2,500 for 21 user seats running at 2400+ speed. Windows was never an option.

Good

[kamukwam]

I think this is a good idea. It never hurts to show pupils what possibilities there are in operating systems. Otherwise they will say: 'Linux, what's that?'

Re:Good

[Arioch of Chaos]

I agree completely. My girlfriend told me the other day that she'd refered to Tux in a discussion with some fellow university students. When they didn't understand she said "You know, the Linux penguin". Apparently they had never even heard of Linux.

Re:Good

[dash2]

I agree completely. My girlfriend told me the other day that she'd refered to Tux in a discussion with some fellow university students. When they didn't understand she said "You know, the Linux penguin". Apparently they had never even heard of Linux.

Funny you should say that. I refered to a girfriend the other day on Slashdot, and when they didn't understand I said "you know, like a girl with whom you have sex". Apparently, they had never...

Re:Good

[Anonymous Coward]

"you know, like a girl with whom you have sex"

Uh, I hate to point this out, but definition of a girlfriend is "the girl you go out with to have romantic dinners, watch movies and long walks in a park".

Sex comes only after you marry her, you silly boy.

Re:Good

[Anonymous Coward]

Darn straight. At least someone on slashdot has their head on right.

Of course, kissing is okay before.

Simple to get Linux used in UK schools

[ites]

... just make a BBC Linux.

(Warning: context required)

Re:Simple to get Linux used in UK schools

[Anonymous Coward]

LOL. And it must cost 499 pounds. Would it have to be ported to the 6502?

Re:Simple to get Linux used in UK schools

[Snart Barfunz]

If you mean compiling a version of Linux for the BBC micros still lurking in many UK schools, then yes that is a funny thought. If you mean the BBC reviving their computer education drive with their own distro, possibly sparking a new programming boom in the process, just like the old Beeb micros did, then bring it on!

Re:Simple to get Linux used in UK schools

[Eric Ass Raymond]

Hey, don't badmouth the venerable BBC!

They were practically the only large news organization that did not bow either to the rabid hawks (CNN, FOX, ...) or the equally unbalanced doves (Deutsche Welle, French RFI and others) during the Gulf War II.

Re:Simple to get Linux used in UK schools

[JamesO]

I think you are missing the context which the poster advised was required...

Many years ago ('82?), the BBC launched the "BBC Microcomputer" (a rebadged Acorn machine based on a 6502). It quickly became the ONLY computer you'd find in any sort of educational establishment. It was backed by TV series & all sorts of other material, and was probably the best of the 8-bit micros in the UK (and this from an ex-Spectrum owner!)

Very few people in the UK moan about the BBC - and most of those who do don't complain about political bias, but the fact that we have to pay a license fee to fund it. What complaints there are about bias tend to come equally from both extremes of the political spectrum, which is probably a good sign

James

Re:Simple to get Linux used in UK schools

[hughk]

Funny no, actually kind of a +5 Insightful if you think of a distro backed by an educational program which runs on a relatively standard PC.

The BBC never produced a single computer, they just held a competition which was won by something that was extremely powerful at the time. However, once they had selected their system from the competing designs, they produced a series of programs which were linked to a UK govt initiative to get computers into schools.

It was far from perfect, but it worked and it was quite successful. Now they don't need to worry about a platform. They don't have to worry about the software (or even the packaging - think of Knoppix or the more configurable Morphix). All they need to do is to select a basic minimum system to present and to help out with broadcast material.

Re:Simple to get Linux used in UK schools

[Echemus]

Not just TV series, there were radio shows about it. Also late at night the BBC broadcasted software over its Radio channels. The idea being that you would record it to cassette then load it into your computer.

I never tried this, but it was a very neat way of distributing software, without having to type it all in by hand or send cassettes out to people.

Re:Simple to get Linux used in UK schools

[ites]

Thank you for understanding my post. The BBC has enormous influence in the UK and generally uses it carefully, and a Beeb Linux would be immediately accepted by thousands of schools without question.

Re:Simple to get Linux used in UK schools

[Scorchio]

I didn't know about the radio broadcasts. Fighting dodgy cassettes was hard work at the best of times; attempting to load data recorded off a radio broadcast seems like a whole new world of hurt.

Didn't they used to broadcast software through the tv teletext service?

Re:Simple to get Linux used in UK schools

[hughk]

I know that some BBC hacks seem to read /. (they don't mention it but there are too many story coincidences), maybe something will get passed back. Whether the current BBC could undertake such a major project now is debatable (also whether Microsoft would let them - they have far to much influence with the current government, and such a project needs govt support as well).

Re:Simple to get Linux used in UK schools

[bhtooefr]

Ever heard of Lunix?

Re:Simple to get Linux used in UK schools

[Anonymous Coward]

They also transmitted programs over the Ceefax, videotex (teletext) service, which you could download onto your BBC with the aid of the BBC Teletext Adapter.

As an aside... The BBC didn't actually make the machines, they did hold a "competition" if putting thier requirements out to tender can be considered a competition, they then paid Acorn to make the machines. This had the effect of making the UK one of the most computer literate contries in the world.

PS I still use my BBC Master 128, 5.25" & 3.5" FDDs, interWORD, Beeb Video Digitiser, Acorn Music 500 (with the music 5000 ROMs) and Microvitec CUB (metal box, of course!) It has a serial connection to my PC which stores the disk image files. I am currently trying to get hold on an Eco Link card to hook up an econet network to my PC so that I can have it properly networked.

PPS When Bill Gates first visited Acorn in the 80s they showed him their Econet system and he (reportedly) said "what's a netowrk?"!!

Re:Simple to get Linux used in UK schools

[Anonymous Coward]

The BBC is a Whitehall-run mouthpiece for the establishment, always has been.

Their performance during the invasion of Iraq was disgraceful.

Only in the USA and the South of England do people think that the BBC is 'balanced'.

Re:Simple to get Linux used in UK schools

[Anonymous Coward]

The British Broadcasting Company Presents...

===== NEWS FROM THE EMPIRE! =====

(cue trumpets)

eek

[madhippy]

, you old machines

A: Provide it is 10

can re-case you existing machines

and for all intensive purposes (intents and purposes?)

god I feel sooo anal, were they using speech recognition software?

if they can't quality control their Q&A section how good are their products?

Come ON!!!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Even at 4:30AM I can't get teh fucking FP???

Where can I dl a bot that will get me a FP?

If someone can write one for me i will get you some paypal$$$.

Re:Come ON!!!!!

[Komarosu]

there are such things as timezones you know...

Re:Come ON!!!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Where can i dl them?

now lets hope that they will 'get it'

[buro9]

initially linux is daunting if you're used to windows. buttons are in the wrong place, and my mother complains that the windows don't quite 'feel' the same and that she can't find all the same games!

but... beyond the fear of something new linux has a lot of very real applications within schools. not only does it give us the ability to teach all of the basic concepts, but it pushes beyond applications and should allow schools to focus on the core understanding of a concept (e.g. spreadsheet knowledge rather than excel know how).

i hope that the schools who have this opportunity to take a closer look will do so with an open enough mind to realise this though... but from my experience with my mother, i suspect it will take time before they do really 'get it'.

Re:now lets hope that they will 'get it'

[Anonymous Coward]

As long as you can figure out which CVS to use with the correct RPM's so that the cross functional dependences allow the kernal compilation to proceed than you are OK.

Re:now lets hope that they will 'get it'

[Doug Neal]

It is a total myth that Linux desktops are difficult to use. KDE and GNOME are just as easy to use as Windows, and offer a lot more flexibility too. Kids learn things quickly, they are group that would be least challenged by a switch from Windows to Linux.

Now, where Linux gets tough, is when you have to install it, configure it, get everything set up and running "just so". Then it's a pain and way beyond the scope of your average end user. (Yes, there are plenty of attempts at easy configuration utilities, but because the unix design was never intended to incorporate such things, there hasn't been one yet that really fits in).

Fortunately, in such environments as a school, or an office, this isn't the job of the end user, it's the job of the sysadmins. They're in charge of keeping them all running smoothly and doing "all that complicated techy stuff" so the users don't have to concern themselves with it, they just get the job done.

Of course, Linux's great remote administration capabilities, networking, general reliability, etc means that the sysadmin's job is easier and more pleasant, there's less downtime, and, perhaps most importantly, no Microsoft licensing fees and restrictions. Schools are publicly funded and Microsoft's pockets are the last place our taxes should be going.

Re:now lets hope that they will 'get it'

[Anonymous Coward]

"Fortunately, in such environments as a school, or an office, this isn't the job of the end user, it's the job of the sysadmins."

When was the last time you saw how computer networks in schools are managed? IME the sysadmins tend to know considerably less about the machines they are supposed to be in charge of than the kids that use them. They can just about work out how to put a Windows CD in the drive to reinstall it, I doubt any of the school admins I've run into in the past would even know how to start setting up a linux box.

Re:now lets hope that they will 'get it'

[mpe]

It is a total myth that Linux desktops are difficult to use. KDE and GNOME are just as easy to use as Windows,

Probably more accurate to describe as "no harder". Since the "ease of use" of Windows is often overstated.

Now, where Linux gets tough, is when you have to install it, configure it, get everything set up and running "just so".

You need to do this for any operating system.

Then it's a pain and way beyond the scope of your average end user.

The idea of end user administration is something of a "Microsoftism". It also tends to make administration of Microsoft systems over complex in environments where the end user and system admin are different people. Which is the case in most corporate and educational systems.

Fortunately, in such environments as a school, or an office, this isn't the job of the end user, it's the job of the sysadmins. They're in charge of keeping them all running smoothly and doing "all that complicated techy stuff" so the users don't have to concern themselves with it, they just get the job done.

Moreover you explicitally don't want end users fiddling with anything with potential to break things. A serious enough problem with office workers, let alone school childen who can find vandalism a source of ammusement.
The idea of end user serviced and maintained machines is rarely even considered outside of computers. Why does anyone think that it makes sense with some of the most complex machines yet built?

Re:now lets hope that they will 'get it'

[fitten]

Again, IMO, focusing on the OS is the wrong thing. Do you spend more time worrying/fiddling with the OS that is inside your car or simply using your car? Do you have to dork with the OS that is in your cell phone or do you just use the cell phone?

IMO, if you are spending time worried about your OS, you are wasting time. The applications are what matter. Most folks don't care what OS they are running but are more concerned with it being familiar and not getting in the way of doing their work (at this time, I've found my Windows boxes to be as stable as my Linux boxes - seeing about the same number of kernel panics as I have seen Windows box crashes in the past year). Being able to pick up a new (to you) application and getting something done within a few minutes of installing the thing is important. Becoming a wizard at the app can take a long time but being able to do simple things real fast is important. In this regard, I still rate OSS apps behind Windows behind Apple.

Consistency is very important. I can't tell you the number of times I've run some new OSS app and had difficulty getting it to do anything and eventually leaving the app because of it. To make it even more funny, the Exit menu option (not the close window box) isn't even in a consistent place. It's almost as if every tool (as in wrenches, saws, etc.) manufacturer made their own unique tools. You'd be able to use Craftsman wrenches to work on your car engine after spending time figuring them out. However, switching to Snap-On tools would cause many delays because you have to figure out how to use the thing before you can get any work done at all.

As far as configurability and such, I gave up on that a long time ago. I use the defaults for the window managers that I use. Years ago I realized how much time I wasted dorking with custom configuration stuff only to confound anyone who was sitting down using my configuration trying to show me something or me sitting down with their custom setting trying to do something. Consistency is good from both the OS and from applications (and across applications). Many OSS apps I've seen seem to have interfaces designed by either engineers who simply wanted the options available somewhere and didn't care where, just add to the end of the menu or by folks who seem to want to show off that they can do better than anyone else with their own bizarro interface. Spare me and stop wasting my time. Make it easy to use and consistent with other apps so I don't have to spend 3 minutes (out of spite) trying to find the menu option that exits the program.

It's About Time

[tomakaan]

I'm suprised there hasn't been this sort of "push" before. Why should money be wasted on Microsoft licenses when it could be spend on something more useful? Maybe even education.

I think using *nix is something that needs to be more forcefully sugested to schools, especially with the current financial situation most schools are being placed in (at least in Michigan). You drop Windows, Novell, and expensive website solutions, and convert to open source ones and you're gonna save a heck of a lot of money.

Re:It's About Time

[RdsArts]

Maybe long term, but today? Not really.

You have to retrain/fire-and-hire the IT staff.
You have to get new text books.

And let's not even talk about finding teachers for this.

I'm am about as dead-set on Free as in Speech software as anyone CAN be, but the last thing schools facing LARGE budget deficits need to hear is "you need to retool your IT staff and use new software. Now."

Maybe if we got the casinos to subsidise it..... */pipedream*

Re:It's About Time

[Stephen Samuel]

Maybe long term, but today? Not really.
You have to retrain/fire-and-hire the IT staff. You have to get new text books.

No big deal there. Consider a classroom with 30 computers. At a conservative $500/box for software and licenses, that's $15K to pay for retraining the network person and new schoolbooks.

If $5000 in courses isn't enough to train someone how to install and support Linux, then they probably should replaced. That leaves $10K for textbooks and other training materials. Even at $100/book (a little high, I'd think) that's still enough for 100 students Chances are, that you'd end up with money left over to do other things.

Re:It's About Time

[mpe]

I'm suprised there hasn't been this sort of "push" before. Why should money be wasted on Microsoft licenses when it could be spend on something more useful? Maybe even education.

Because the people making the decisions are not asking the question. They just don't appear to think that way.

Re:It's About Time

[Anonymous Coward]

And, of course, getting all the educational software out that the teachers like to use... might have to hire some programmers for that.

Linux Roadshow Add (before /.ted)

[vierja]

Want to see the Addison server in action? Want to try Linux? Will it benefit your school? Get the full facts!

LINUX SERVER ROADSHOW

Our roadshow van houses a fully functional "mini" IT suite of 5 workstations, a server, printers and more, with information and literature on our servers, Linux in general, 2simple software, Netraverse and much more.

Ideal opportunity for teachers and pupils to evaluate Linux and the server system. Remember this isn't just a Linux operating system, this server can provide a Windows desktop enviroment to every workstation, (not an emulator) saving £1000's compared to Microsoft and Citrix setups.

The Roadshow can show you a better way, a way where we can still teach our children ICT as we are doing now, but without the financial noose that hangs over our heads.

**This service is offered without obligation, and is kindly given by our sponsors, to show schools and educational departments around the UK, that there is an alternative to the ever increasing cycle of hardware and software upgrading.** The Addison Server Roadshow can come to your school or town!

Re:Linux Roadshow Add (before /.ted)

[Anonymous Coward]

Better link some Risc Os machines to the server too. If it was just for nostalgic reasons so the head master sees something familiar.
Not the ones that run ARM Linux or BSD of course.
And there must be quite a few thin clients systems based on ARM available somewhere. The thin client concept has already a long history in the British education system. Gates learned what a network was when he talked with Acorn's Herman Hauser in the eightees.

Ernst Dinkla

Re:Good?

[jkrise]

OTOH, this approach is to bring the Windows environment to Linux using thin-client computing. How does it enlighten students about Linux? Maybe they'd get the impression Linux is always meant to ape Windows?

.

Future OS users are now playing games

[jabbadabbadoo]

Microsoft has grown large because kids started on Microsoft OS's, playing games, doing fun stuff.

So when they grew up, they knew the ins and outs of their favorite Windows OS.

The point? If Linux is to grow big, focus on making it a great gaming platform. Todays gamers are tomorrows professional users.

Re:Future OS users are now playing games

[LoztInSpace]

I can't wait until my boss trades in my desktop and gives me a PS2 instead.

Re:Future OS users are now playing games

[Realistic_Dragon]

No, it's because of the teachers - generally their skills were seriously eroded when Windows came along and it was standardised for staff rooms.

My mother used to be able to write BBC Basic (no major feat, i'll grant) with no real problems, and the BBC masters in her classroom were well used by the kids. All of them were perfectly happy with the command line and loved messing around with the things.

Now she is a WinXP user (after several versions) and has panick attacks over having to install stuff - years of experience have taught her that it can easly make stuff break. She thinks the Linux command line is scary and unusable. The kids in the class write the odd dcument in word and play a few shitty little games. No chance of them writing their own.

Windows degrades computing skill like nothing else - new users and kids should be made to use a fun, tweakable, stable platform which requires you to pick up a few things about programming (that are easy to learn for large returns, like BBC Basic) to get the most out of it.

I got my early education, like programmers most I suspect, hacking around with simple computers that could do little unless you wrote it yourself. How are this generation going to lean those skills with Microsoft dumbing down the computing experience at every opportunity?

Re:Future OS users are now playing games

[nick_urbanik]

You're probably right. My 3 1/2 year old son likes playing Tux Paint on his Linux machine. He also likes Tux Racer and Tux Typing. He also likes the barcode and sproingies screen savers, so there's a link to those in his gnome-panel.

I think he will probably use Linux well when he's big.

Re:Future OS users are now playing games

[awakened tech]

Have to agree, I remember when I was a nipper and had my speccy. Your Sinclair (and every other mainstream spectrum magazine) had a regular programming column that contains fun (and often useless) bits of code, the point? so you did something with your machine other than stick in a tape and hit play. You got a sense of achievement and seeing how easy it was gave you knew possibilities.

The only PC mags that have programming sections are the weightier, more serious tomes and the programs while sometimes cool (but only to geeks) lack the wide ranging appeal of those early days.

We need to return to the days where kids could really play with their machines and learn something other than how to use Windows Update.

Re:Future OS users are now playing games

[hughk]

BBC Basic was in ROM on the machine. Everyone had it, so most got familiar with at least some simple programming.

MS don't give you a language other than Windows Scripting sHell anymore. However, a Perl/Tk or Python/Tk installation is easy to make on Win or Linux.

Re:Future OS users are now playing games

[akpcep]

You skinflint.

Buy the poor little bastard an XBOX.

Re:Future OS users are now playing games

[bhtooefr]

Well, Linux can run on the PS2, yes...

Re:Future OS users are now playing games

[bhtooefr]

Amen to that! When I was younger, I had an old Apple //c, and it MADE ME LEARN HOW THE FSCKING COMPUTER WORKS, rather than simply play the fscking games. Windows PCs today ARE dumbed down, but I still have ways of making them smart.

(Hits the Windows key, then R, then types CMD, and hits Enter...)

Re:Future OS users are now playing games

[Qacker]

You are right! Why is it that XBOX and PS2 are so popular? Because no thinking skills are needed. Why install a game when you can just pop it in the drive? I think a lot of people would like it if a computer was a TV that you could IM on.

In my school the 'comp class' is taught in English as a side thing. Our teacher gets out the projector and shows us 'advanced' stuff in Word like how to save on a server. And a lot of people still save in the wrong place. A science teacher had a Unix Networking book on his desk and a telnet link on his desktop. Why can't he teach the computer class instead of some stupid english teacher? A few weeks ago we had to write As to some computer Qs. Things like: What is a browser? I wrote 3 pharagraphs on how a browser gets and renders HTML using the HTTP and how that is carried over a TCP/IP conection. When we turned it in she just glanced over it and wrote A+. Most people copied and pasted from a FAQ online and they got an A+ too. Are computer skills becoming thought of like turning on a TV and changing the chanel? No many people have even a basic understanding of how a TV works but have huge flatscreens. What happens when the are only a few coders left because everyone else is IMing all day?

Re:Future OS users are now playing games

[nick_urbanik]

It's true, he's gets really exited about Tux Paint! It's the sound effects he likes.

He also likes the custom pictures he can draw with that include himself and the tank engine at our Railway museum (he's a Thomas the Tank Engine fan).

And the fact that his name is Linus is no coincidence (really!)

Re:Future OS users are now playing games

[akpcep]

Oddly, I have a Railway Museum in my town too.

Which is I'm sure you'll agree, a fascinating fact.

Re:Future OS users are now playing games

[nick_urbanik]

No it's not a fascinating fact. It's your personal relationship with your environment that gives it life to you. I have shared mine with you, here in Hong Kong. You offer sarcasm. Anything more?

Re:Future OS users are now playing games

[akpcep]

I wasn't being sarcastic.

Re:Future OS users are now playing games

[Nurgled]

What happens when the are only a few coders left because everyone else is IMing all day?

The programmers will find that they're suddenly getting paid a lot more.

Re:Future OS users are now playing games

[nick_urbanik]

I'm sorry to misinterpret you; here in Hong Kong a Railway Museum just seems like it has to be.

What is Microsoft waiting for?

[maliabu]

has MS already done a similar roadshow, if not i'm sure it'll be keen to send some cheerleader squads giving out products which actually cost money to buy.

So riddle me this...

[Anonymous Coward]

WHY IS ANUS TORVALD A FAG!!!

SCO

[kamukwam]

Damn, couldn't find a way to make a funny SCO joke on this subject ...

Linux Creator Biograpy

[Anonymous Coward]

A good read about Linus Torvald's life and why he decided to develop the power house OS he did, and his thoughts about how it has evolved to it's present forms. Highly recommended.

Re:Linux Creator Biograpy

[Anonymous Coward]

dude, you have to at least put in a fake link like this one: MSN_Linus_Tells_All if you expect anyone to click it.

Re:Linux Creator Biograpy

[Anonymous Coward]

That's quite a nice touch. I bow to your skill, good sir.

SCO has launched lawsuit against BBC

[ites]

Claiming that the Addison roadshow is a "derivative work" of the BBC's Open University, which has at its core a SysV Unix server, and is thus licensed from SCO or/and its antecedents. SCO has asked Addison for $3bn in damages, citing "irrefutable damage to its market credibility", and "millions, or at least dozens of lines of stolen coke uh code".

Just string random stupid words together, add several volumes of pomposity, and you get a SCO joke.

Let me try again to demostrate the ease of my method (which by the way I am patenting): How many SCOs does it take to make Slashdot laugh? 1... 2... 3... hold it... hold it... YES!! A Beowulf clusterfsck!!!

Start Early...

[somethinghollow]

Learning a new environment is easier when someone is younger. If students are introduced to different languages early in life, they are easier to learn. I reckon OSes are quite the same. As far as mom's are concerned, I forced mine to start using Mac OS X after getting her used to Windows. She made the transition nicely (probably because she wasn't very experienced with Windows in the first place) ;)

Re:Start Early...

[Anonymous Coward]

I forced mine to start using Mac OS X

Good Lord! Why would you do something like that? Are you trying to make her turn gay or something?!

Nice ad.

[Anonymous Coward]

I bet netraverse gets a heap of click-throughs from that free advertisement.

But if we really want Linux to succeed in schools

[ites]

There is only one sure way. Outlaw it. Ban it. "Linux is bad for you and you can't get it!"

Soon there will be Linux CD sharks hanging around the school gates, pirate copies of the latest SuSE, rumours that Linux can actually run on "normal" PCs, and so on. I'm half serious, actually: anything kids are forced to pay attention to, they learn to hate.

Mod Parent Up

[Anonymous Coward]

+1 Informative.

Oops..!! do we need SCO in SChOols??

[jkrise]

From the NeTraverse technology section:

"Win4Lin Terminal Server 2.0 is derived from proven technologies developed for Unix® based operating systems over the last 15 years, most notably those of SCO® (Caldera®), under the product name of Merge(tm)"

I remember a SCO product named Tarentella which did something like thin clients, but wasn't good enuff in our setup. Must we promote SCOde and SCO technology in schools ?

Re:Oops..!! do we need SCO in SChOols??

[Anonymous Coward]

SCO licenses the technology from NeTraverse on an OEM basis, not the other way around.

Article Mirror

[Anonymous Coward]

Mirror of the article, use once the eventual /. effect occurs, or hell, even before, no pop ups.

I see two problems....

[madmarcel]

(Without reading the article - as usual ;)

I'll assume they're going to visit high schools and primary schools...

This is a good idea...but:

I see (at least) three problems:

(I'm going to get flamed to a crisp for this :^o

1) From (my own humble) experience...the teacher who takes the 'computer class' at high school is not necessarily a very experienced computer-user. He is usually a random teacher who was sent to a course to learn about computers, someone else set up the network for him, that is all he knows.
More often than not his students know more about the computers they are using than the teacher.
(Ah, sweet memories...Anyone here who did NOT hack the high-school computer network? ;)

Now it's stupid of me to generalize like this, but I don't see the average teacher installing linux just like that without help. I'm not saying that teachers are stupid - just lacking experience perhaps - and no, not all schools have an IT department. (OTOH Usually there's a 'whiz'kid around, who's more than glad to help...)

2) Don't Micro$oft and Apple sponsor schools and
give them free computers? Do they still do that?
(The obvious idea is: Get the kids to use your
software and computers in school --> they'll want to use them at home and later at work as well --> more customers)
How do you convince the schools to switch to linux (and potentially miss out on future freebies?)

3) See 2, the kids (and parents - the ones who pay the bills) will want what 'everybody else' uses. Experience with $%#% Word etc is perceived as being essential for getting a job. OpenOffice? Hmmm...don't think so.

Of course it's not all bad....
Obvious advantages (for a school)

- Linux is cheap.
- Linux is secure.
(And it will be placed in an environment where
its security-model will get thoroughly tested ;)
- By 'exposing' kids to linux earlier we can increase it's acceptance. (see 2)
- Will run on older hardware (schools have limited budgets)

</rant>

Re:I see two problems....

[1u3hr]

I don't see the average teacher installing linux just like that without help

That's exactly the service Addison is selling.

Re:I see two problems....

[bhtooefr]

What kind of mobo do those have?

My HP 6535 (Cel466) has a Trigem Cognac board. The controller for everything (all ports, video, etc., etc.) is an Intel 82810. Sometimes the mouse just refuses to work (but it's recognized by the computer... - and it's not the mouse itself) under Windows 2000 (unless I have IIS running, which I found out when playing with it, deciding whether to plug it into my DSL... Under RedHat 8, both the KB and mouse die if the mouse is touched by the OS. SuSE LiveEval, however, works perfectly... Wonder what distro I'm using...

Here is a hint

[plj]

(quoted from NeTraverse Win4Lin Terminal Server S2.0 web page):

Win4Lin Terminal Server 2.0 is derived from proven technologies developed for Unix® based operating systems over the last 15 years, most notably those of SCO® (Caldera®), under the product name of Merge(tm).

So their technology is actually derivated from SCO's... prepare to get sued.

Correct spelling isn't required at schools...

[Anonymous Coward]

school children are now encouraged just to make a good attempt at spelling and trying to write works how they sound.

MS word will then automatically pick up the slack.

This is NOT a good idea

[Anonymous Coward]

Put Linux in schools? WHY?

Shouldn't we be putting OS's in schools that can actually earn kids a living once they get out? No one is going to pay you to write Linux apps or OSS.

No, I think the children would be better served by Windows, which is the OS people here in the real world use.

Re:This is NOT a good idea

[Eric Ass Raymond]

I fully agree.

It's kind of sad how some people insist that software should be chosen on some lofty ideological principles instead of acknowledging the cold, hard reality that MS Windows and Office are and will be the de facto standards in business worldwide for the decades to come.

Sure open source has its uses like the success of Apache and Linux in the server markets shows. However, most kids will not end up as system administrators but office workers who will only do word processing and spreadsheets. It is essential to get them familiarized with the standard tools of the trade at the earliest opportunity.

In contrast, those kids who end up as professional IT workers will always have the curiosity and skill to learn the more esoteric things like altenrative operating systems and other by themselves. There is no need to waste society's resources on trying to teach these difficult subjects to everyone.

Re:This is NOT a good idea

[minus9]

"acknowledging the cold, hard reality that MS Windows and Office are and will be the de facto standards in business worldwide for the decades to come."

I don't remember what the de facto standard was when I was at school. It certainly wasn't the same as it is now. Technology changes constantly, that is its nature.

Children need to be learn general principles not how to use Microsoft Office 2000 SP2.

Re:This is NOT a good idea

[Shimbo]

It's kind of sad how some people insist that software should be chosen on some lofty ideological principles instead of acknowledging the cold, hard reality that MS Windows and Office are and will be the de facto standards in business worldwide for the decades to come

Get real! Decades from now, computing is going to be nothing like today. The whole of the life of the NT family spans just over one decade. Two decades ago would you have backed MS against IBM - I think not.

I'm no Linux zealot but it's noticable that OpenOffice is making strong growth. I wouldn't dream of trying to predict beyond the next ten years but I'd give 50/50 that OpenOffice will be bigger than MS Office in 5. Even died in the wool MS types at work are looking seriously at OpenOffice, and that's only the 1.0 release.

Re:This is NOT a good idea

[mhifoe]

I don't remember what the de facto standard was when I was at school. It certainly wasn't the same as it is now. Technology changes constantly, that is its nature.
When I as at school we used BBC micros, then Acorn Archimedes. 15 years ago this could have been described as the 'de facto' standard.

Children need to be learn general principles not how to use Microsoft Office 2000 SP2.
Quite right. Given that for most users one word processor is much the same as another, I'd love to see MSOffice dropped just because of it's enormous cost. Especially as the constantly changing file structures force schools into an expensive upgrade cycle.

Re:This is NOT a good idea

[Stephen Samuel]

..... instead of acknowledging the cold, hard reality that MS Windows and Office are and will be the de facto standards in business worldwide for the decades to come.

Dunno about that. It is the de facto standard now, but I'm not going to bet my life either way on it staying that way over the next 20 years.

....However, most kids will not end up as system administrators but office workers who will only do word processing and spreadsheets.

For those people, OpenOffice will give them enough familiarity to handle themselves with MS office. Not many people actually do the deep and wierd stuff where the differences between the MS and Open office suites become glaring, and those are ....

In contrast, those kids who end up as professional IT workers will always have the curiosity and skill to learn the more esoteric things like altenrative operating systems and other by themselves.

If a solution handles it for the mediocore kids, and still provides a platform for the future-IT types to do some real work at school, then why not go that path? Especially if you can do it for less (leftover money for other initiatives). Besides being the launch base for an office suite, Linux also provides a bunch of programming languages and development environments for free that would probably cost a few thousand dollars for the Microsoft equivalent.

I think that it's also important to realize that teaching kids how to program doesn't just train them to be IT workers. It also teaches them ways of thinking. Programming is a relatively unforgiving process. A program either works, or it doesn't. There's not a whole lot of room for hand-waving. At the same time, it encourages free thinking. There are many ways of doing even the most simple of tasks and once people realize that, they really do start themselves thinking about other ways of doing the things that they're used to.

In my world, open thinking is a good thingâ. trade copy

Microsoft UK education

[pubjames]

I used to work for a large educational organisation in the UK. Microsoft wanted to work with us on their stand at BETT, which is a big education fair in the UK. I met with the Microsoft people and they explained what they wanted - basically educationalists from the organisation I worked for to do various demonstrations using MS software showing how it could be used in schools. We would get a load of free software in return.

I raised the point that I thought that the demonstrations they were suggesting were not very educational and poorly designed. I was amazed at the response I got from them. They basically said they didn't care if they weren't educational. They were just there to get schools to buy MS software and to try to get the maximum profit from schools. They actually said that, bare faced. I couldn't believe it - at least they could have pretended to be a bit interested in the educational aspect.

And before some of you respond "they're a business, what do you expect, it's only about profit" etc... I have worked with various companies before on joint projects between industry and education and most of them have been great - really helpful, genuinely interested, really wanting to do something to help educational organisations. IBM were great on one project for instance, and they didn't try to milk it for publicity either. That day with Microsoft I felt I'd really seen into the heart of the beast, and it's not pleasant.

Contact ... uh, how?

[AltismoMaster]

This is a good idea - and reading it over it seems to be aimed at the non-savvy user. That being said, do you think they will get confused when they click on contact us and there is no actual contact information?

none, zip, nada. Not even an email address or a mailto: link...

Anyway - good idea, just don't be surprised when the requests *don't* flow in...

Re:Contact ... uh, how?

[1u3hr]

Not even an email address or a mailto: link..

If you back up to the home page, you find the address info@addison4schools.net.

Re:Contact ... uh, how?

[AltismoMaster]

Yea, fair enough. But two things:

1. there is no click path from the site to the home, thus you would have to click the back button X times (and that is if you remembered seeing the link there in the first place...)

2. The contact page really should have some type of contact information - yes? Would most folks go searching through the site more than 3 seconds (or 2 clicks) looking for a way to contact them? probally not.

Design 101

Re:Contact ... uh, how?

[1u3hr]

Yea, fair enough. But two things:

Yes, it wasn't in the obvious place. A pretty slapdash site all around. One hopes his actual work is more careful.

Re:Contact ... uh, how?

[bhtooefr]

They fixed it... it now says:

Email :- info@addison4schools.net

Office :- 020 8530 7449

Mobile:- 07092 346 460

Web :- www.addison4schools.net

Addison UK
49 Addison Road
Wanstead
London
E11 2RG

Karma Whore

[Anonymous Coward]

Text of the article, in case the link gets slashdotted:

All Koreans urged to remain true to inter Korean joint declaration

Pyongyang, June 17 (KCNA) -- Inter-Korean dialogues and contacts are taking place on the principle of national independence and the Koreans from all walks of life are joining their efforts and raising the same voices despite their differing ideologies under the banner of "by our nation itself". This is the real picture in the era of independence and reunification in which the nation is bound to emerge victorious thanks to the June 15 North-South Joint Declaration. Rodong Sinmun today says this in a signed article.

Referring to the astonishing events and stirring realities on this land the nation has witnessed in the movement for national reunification over the last three years since the publication of the joint declaration, the article goes on:

The more reckless the U.S. imperialists become in their moves to chill the desire of Koreans for independence and reunification and bring a nuclear holocaust to the Korean Peninsula, the stronger faith and will the Koreans will have to creditably carve out the future of the country and the nation on their own, regarding national independence as their life and soul.

The desire to achieve reconciliation, unity and reunification by the concerted efforts of the Korean nation is running high all over the country.

No matter how desperately the U.S. may work to start a nuclear war it cannot break the fixed will of the Koreans to achieve independence and reunification by rejoining the severed blood ties of the nation by its concerted efforts, optimistic about the victory of the era of independence and reunification.

The joint declaration serves as a landmark of patriotism as it encourages the nation to sail to the final destination of reunification in the spirit of great national unity under the uplifted banner of independence, despite any adverse wind raised by outsiders and such snags as flunkeyism and treachery.

The nation has yet a thorny way to go as there are many trials and difficulties in its way of national reunification.

But no force on earth can stop the 70 million Koreans from vigorously advancing under the banner of the joint declaration.

No useful learning is OS dependant

[Ebony Run]

Kids can learn important computer skills on ANY operating system. Schools should be using Linux cause it allows them to put money back into other educational programs, like arts -- not because of some fancy road show, and certainly not because it can run Windows apps.

Re: is this really needed ?

[Cochonou]

Well, there might no point in "enforcing" several operating systems early in life.
Every people will have to deal with different languages in his life, but how many people on the whole will have to use linux ? Unless (and sometimes even if...) you're working in the IT or do scientific research, chances are that you'll never have to deal with linux.
So I believe that learning unix-like OSes should be a personal choice. Most people are happy using MS Word, and thus I don't see myself anytime soon praising the benefits of early "latex editing in emacs" learning.

I'd rather see me children (which I don't have yet...) learn italian than linux early in life.

What Slashdot needs

[Anonymous Coward]

What Slashdot needs is a good, hard UK cock up the editors' arse!

That's what I think!

gaywebmasters.biz

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, they are already memebers of the gaywebmasters.biz...

Parent is a troll

[alpharoid]

But I'll bite. :)

This isn't college. Kids will only learn the basic usability issues that'll get them ready for "real" CS courses -- provided they even want to go that way.

By learning through Linux, they'll probably be one step ahead of the students bound to Windows. As a general rule, those familiar with Linux have no problem running Windows. The opposite is so not true.

Re:Parent is a troll

[Cochonou]

"As a general rule, those familiar with Linux have no problem running Windows."
Actually, you may be surprised that it's not true in every case.
I worked this year at a robotics / feeback control lab, where every workstation was running under *nix. In order to try a pedagogic robot, we had to install windows on a machine. It was quite a fun event, as we had the opportunity to see four reseachers around a windows box wondering "how the heck do you see the free disk space in windows".
However, I believe this is quite anecdotic.

Re:Parent is a troll

[Goth Biker Babe]

Kids will only learn the basic usability issues that'll get them ready for "real" CS courses Sadly "real" CS courses are few and far between. I've heard of many courses dropping operating, compiler and low level theory because "the students will probably just write applications in VB and will buy the rest". There's going to be a real skills shortage in the future with the majority of coders not really knowing what's going on the machine at all.

Re:Parent is a troll

[Anonymous Coward]

you just said something very contradicting

you stated that "real" CS courses are few and far between and thus that will cause a skills shortage in the future..

well.. with an outlook such as that.. wouldn't it be sensible to keep these courses?

here in the good ole USA.. colleges are NOT dropping these courses.. rather, i see, more theory courses (especially in my college.. this has been here for a while now) being added.. especially introductory ML courses, program designing and yes.. there is a graduate course that even has the student write their own OS practically

for a college to do such a foolish thing and drop crucial coding courses because they figure the VB is the solution is completely irrational and quite frankly, scary

Re:But if we really want Linux to succeed in schoo

[jkrise]

"Outlaw it. Ban it. "Linux is bad for you and you can't get it!""

I think SCO's doing a good job here.. they even compare Linux to illegal music! What are the students waiting for?

Re:But if we really want Linux to succeed in schoo

[Anonymous Coward]

SCO is combatting this scourge right now. :)

An opportunity here...

[Snart Barfunz]

'I believe that children are the future' or some such sap. Schools have boards of governors who are parents, that have influence over what the school does. Schools' IT budgets come from our taxes. So, isn't there some scope for an advocacy groups of IT-savvy parents to push Linux in schools through becoming governors or lobbying them, providing voluntary assistance, and identifying preferred suppliers?

Re: is this really needed ?

[Gimble]

I don't see it as enforcing kids to learn Linux (remember the teachers won't know it either), but allowing schools to do more with the available money.

Having the whole class huddling around one PC while the teacher demonstrates something is no way to learn. Each student requires individual access to a PC and applications and that costs money.

Open Office is entirely adequate for the topics my kids are covering

misguided?

[Anonymous Coward]

Rather than showcasing NIH, Addison should be pushing the tried and true BSD kernel instead.

Linux and learning

[pen]

Linux is a really good operating system to run in a learning environment, since a lot of tasks require the user to learn something about the software and hardware*. I think a nice after-school program (or even a week or two of a computer class in high school) would be just putting together and configuring a Linux box.

That being said, I think that "word processing" computers should remain Mac OS or Windows.

*Today, this is only true of some distributions.

Re:Linux and learning

[Anonymous Coward]

That is anti linux!
Look fucker linux can do it ALL!
mod that "pen" bastard/cunt -5000 anti_linux!

Re:Linux and learning

[Organic_Info]

"That being said, I think that "word processing" computers should remain Mac OS or Windows."

Why? Other than both platforms supporting word what do they offer over Linux for something as simple as word processing?

To be perfectly honest GUI based word processing is the worst thing to start learning word processing. Why, because the moment people are introduced to say Word they forget about conentent and spend most of their time messing around with fonts and formating.

My CS teachers at school (who were great) taught us not to mess with formatting and concentrate on the content above all else - formating came last. A lesson very well learnt that has stayed with me.

I know the features can be ignored within a GUI but try telling that to new users.

Re:Linux and learning

[commanderfoxtrot]

My CS teachers at school (who were great) taught us not to mess with formatting and concentrate on the content above all else - formating came last. A lesson very well learnt that has stayed with me.

That's the basic principle behind TeX/LaTeX. In fact, it's also the principle behind HTML -- separating content from fancy layout.

Knoppix based distro for schools..

[heytal]

I know of a distro at ofset.org that is available. It is being used at quite a few places in india to demonstrate linux and its capabilities for school children.

My college does one better

[Anonymous Coward]

At my college (that's a high school to you Americans) here in Winchester we had that guy from Smoothwall come to talk to us about Linux. He did a great talk and really got some people interested. Of course, I was already running Linux, and didn't like it being made popular ;)

SuSE war3z

[ultrabot]

pirate copies of the latest SuSE

Actually, SuSE doesn't ship ISO's for free, so kids can't get legal SuSE even now (as CD images, that is). This is also the reason so many have been unable to try out SuSE (including your truly - had I been able to try it for free, I might have recommended it for my company over Red Hat. It's easier to spend company money than your own).

I think this arrangement is pretty lame. People should be able to get SuSE ISO's for home use for free, while charging for corporate desktops and SLES.

Re:SuSE war3z

[plj]

Actually, SuSE doesn't ship ISO's for free, so kids can't get legal SuSE even now (as CD images, that is).

But if all the content on their ISOs is covered by GPL, what prevents copying it from someone who has it? AFAIK it's still legal.

Of course if those ISOs have bundled proprietary software (say StarOffice, Crossover Office) on them, then this naturally doesn't apply.

Re:SuSE war3z

[pacman on prozac]

Suse does however provide Bootable CD demo's, called liveeval, which basically gives you everything but doesnt install it, similar to the knoppix CD's but slower to boot. Get it here.

They also provide an ftp installer CD that you can use to build a complete Suse system that seems to be identical to the purchased desktop version.

To find these involved going to www.suse.com, clicking on "downloads". I'm sure the kids can handle this fine.

Re:SuSE war3z

[ultrabot]

To find these involved going to www.suse.com, clicking on "downloads". I'm sure the kids can handle this fine.

Not w/o fixed-price network connection. And I doubt they are willing to "evaluate" anything, as long as they can get the "real thing" from other distributors.

Re:SuSE war3z

[bhtooefr]

You can still get SuSE for free legally, just not ISOs.

Re:SuSE war3z

[pacman on prozac]

....at the same cost...whats your point?

It's a nice idea, but...

[ledow]

I work in several Primary schools in the UK and, although this is a step in the right direction, it doesn't stand a chance.

Most schools have already got full networks with windows. They won't be interested in replacing them.

Even one of the local "showcase" schools which doesn't use the Research Machine software which is all-but monopolistic in British schools (thanks to government approval), has a massive RM network with Windows. The windows licenses are already paid, the hardware is already there, the thing is configured and working and cost a lot of money to put there.

Schools are kept in a constant upgrade cycle to meet new pupil/computer ratios all the time (yes, even Infant / Junior schools). That means they are spending £10,000 a year or so by just keeping their networks up-to-date enough to run the latest kids software, putting enough machines it. There is certainly a need for a thin-client structure here, especially with all the old donated machines etc.

But, they won't be interested in re-training / hiring staff that can work the server or in "yet another" network upgrade. They won't be interested in replacing their systems with an "unknown".

Most schools are currently being offered and considering, as well as actually buying, XP upgrades for their RM networks (we're talking in the region of £40-50,000 for a small, suburban infant school, here). Thin-clients alone would save costs, certainly. Thin-clients on a Linux-based server is even better.

Even if you could convince the board of governors and the school itself to make such a quantum leap into the unknown, they won't know what it is, they can't/won't see the benefits and they can't afford the downtime.

I am hired purely because the networks they have are in and working. Most of the problems I run across are basically things which teachers can do but just don't have time. Most secondary schools have IT-specific staff and I'm proof that the Infant/Junior schools are heading that way.

Once they have trained, knowledgeable IT staff with ***purchasing power***, we can start.

They also should have started publicising earlier... it's coming up to end-of-term and most schools already have their full upgrade for next year planned out and paid for. One school I work in has their entire IT budget for the next three years planned out on 100BaseT CABLING.

This project could also be helped along by things like Tesco's Computers For Schools voucher schemes etc. Free computers if the kids parents spend enough in a supermarket.

Basically, I'd love to see this. My day is filled with silly nightmarish systems that make simple changes virtually impossible (e.g. taking 8 hours to set up a wireless network between an outdoor classroom and the internal network... gave up in the end due to software problems, old hardware, poor network configuration and the red-tape associated with getting new IP addresses).

Thin-clients, on a stable Linux base is a dream for me. Unfortunately, I have to deal with "manager-style" staff in schools who ask "can I get onto the internet if I log in to the hard drive?" and "I've always wondered what the little wheel in the mouse did" (TRULY). These are the people with buying-power.

These people aren't gonna have a clue what we're on about and certainly won't part with the time or the money required to have someone come in, format ~100 computers back to basics, install a network server and have someone on hand to maintain it all.

It's a nice idea. I want them to try to convince people. Unfortunately, it's gonna be a very rough ride for them while RM still has a monopoly and while the government and local education authorities does little to try to educate them.

Re:It's a nice idea, but...

[Ben Hutchings]

What RM monopoly? I never heard of them having much success after the old Nimbus sorta-PCs.

Re:It's a nice idea, but...

[ledow]

Sitting in a school in Greater London, like several other schools I work for... nothing but RM PC's, RM Network, RM Software (even rebranded Microsoft Word 97 under license with a few macros and it's called RM Talking First Word). RM provide all the support, RM provide the software, RM provide the training... in fact the local borough sells nothing but RM. In fact, I'm the only non-RM person to do with IT that I've seen in the local borough. And that's because I can work all of their software without their special training.

This is a common sight in almost every school in the UK. My university (three years ago now) was even stocked out with RM PC's. Fortunately, universities have more say over what they use.

Re:It's a nice idea, but...

[ledow]

Oh... our ISDN internet access is RM, our filtering software is via proxy at isdncache.rmplc.co.uk:8080. The school uses RM EasyMail, as does every other school in the borough. We're upgrading to broadband from RM.

Take a look at any of their websites... they're still there. I'm not sure, but I think they even have a role in the London Grid For Learning, a sort-of london-wide teacher resource.

Re:It's a nice idea, but...

[Stephen Samuel]

Most schools have already got full networks with windows. They won't be interested in replacing them.
.....
Schools are kept in a constant upgrade cycle to meet new pupil/computer ratios all the time (yes, even Infant / Junior schools). That means they are spending £10,000 a year or so by just keeping their networks up-to-date enough to run the latest kids software, putting enough machines it. There is certainly a need for a thin-client structure here, especially with all the old donated machines etc.

Well, if we could manage to get the whole new system installed for less than the $10K it costs to keep the old system up to date, this might be an indication that they could save even more money over the long run with the new setup.

I know that Windows puts people into a panic about just installing new software (far too likely to break everything else). That's part of my complaint about Windows (and would be the complaint of windows users if they really knew that there was an alternative).

Once people get use to the fact that (unlike Windows), non-MS software can be both usable and stable, I'm guessing that they're never going back.

Re:It's a nice idea, but...

[mpe]

But, they won't be interested in re-training / hiring staff that can work the server or in "yet another" network upgrade. They won't be interested in replacing their systems with an "unknown".
Most schools are currently being offered and considering, as well as actually buying, XP upgrades for their RM networks (we're talking in the region of £40-50,000 for a small, suburban infant school, here) Thin-clients alone would save costs, certainly. Thin-clients on a Linux-based server is even better.

The thing is that XP (or for that matter SuperStar) is considered an "upgrade" rather than a "leap into the unknown".

These people aren't gonna have a clue what we're on about and certainly won't part with the time or the money required to have someone come in, format ~100 computers back to basics, install a network server and have someone on hand to maintain it all.

But at the same time they are likely to ask what "the problem" is when some badly written "educational program" requires a time consuming update to be run on every single workstation. Jest because the idiot who wrote the software dosn't know what a network is.

It's a nice idea. I want them to try to convince people. Unfortunately, it's gonna be a very rough ride for them while RM still has a monopoly and while the government and local education authorities does little to try to educate them.

IME these are the people who actually need educating most immediatly.

Re:It's a nice idea, but...

[mpe]

What RM monopoly? I never heard of them having much success after the old Nimbus sorta-PCs.

Because if they get themselves approved by the LEA as a supplier it's not necessary for schools to go through the usual procedure for spending large amounts of money.

Re:It's a nice idea, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

If you look closely, you will see that the whole NGfL (National Grid for Learning) is a RM quango...

I hope this takes off

[danielrendall]

Speaking as someone who's about to abandon the IT industry in favour of a job teaching physics in UK schools, I'm entirely in favour of this.

I don't know how the funding of computers in schools works, but I assume MS must get their cut somewhere, and as a taxpayer, I don't think that would represent a good use of my money.

As regards the 'well, the real world uses MS stuff', firstly I didn't realise that the purpose of schools was to churn out a bunch of MS-using automata and secondly, if the children are taught the principles of the various packages (i.e. what a word processor is for, the things that it ought to be able to do, how to look for help) they ought to be able to adapt their skills to proprietory alternatives over the course of a wet Wednesday afternoon.

If the UK government wants a competitive and innovative IT industry, it ought to recognise that getting kids into computers via stuff you can actually tinker with would probably be a good start :-)

Re:Hacking the high school network..

[Technician]

(Ah, sweet memories...Anyone here who did NOT hack the high-school computer network? ;)


I graduated in 1975. IBM came out the the PC in 1981.

There was no network to hack you insensitive clod. ;-)

Re: is this really needed ?

[somethinghollow]

I never said FORCE. No one is forcing anything. Simply giving an option by letting people know it exists. There are people that don't know Linux (or any other given OS except maybe Windows or Mac OS) exists. But I'm all about choices. Stick vs Manual tranny, HTML vs WYSIWYG, Linux vs Windows, etc. I like more control. Not everyone has to (like I said, I put my mom on Mac+Apple 'cause it's easy and generally less buggy than Windows+PC).

But I agree. I'd rather have bi-lingual kids, though bi-OS would be nice too...

Of course ... NetBSD

[Burb]

NetBSD is alleged to run on certain Acorn-based machines which are found in UK schools. Not that I've tried it, mind you.

And yes, I know it doesn't run on 6502 machines...

Re:Of course ... NetBSD

[Goth Biker Babe]

There's been ARM Linux running on Acorn's ARM machines for sometime now. I got it running on my RISC PC sometime in 97/8. Also in the late 80's you could get an Archimedes A540 running RiscIX which was based upon BSD.

Don't forget ARM originally stood for Acorn Risc Machines. They invented the things. I'm surrounded by them. They are in my phone, set top box, one of my desktop machines and my PDA. People always think of BBC Micros when Acorn is mentioned forgetting that they made the worlds first desktop RISC based machine. They've also made many other inovations over the years.

Re:Of course ... NetBSD

[bhtooefr]

But Lunix does! :-)

A few suggestions for anyone implementing...

[aking137]

I've just spent the last 21 months as network person at Moor Park High School in Preston, Lancs. I implemented two Linux servers which did internal www which staff could access parts of via their W:\ drive, mail, proxy (with authentication and ability to block kids by a gui), ability to reclone damaged NT/2000 workstations, quota limits for kids, staff and pupil shared areas (accessible via S:\ and T:\ drives), shell access for kids, remote KDE/GNOME desktops in a window for staff (not that they used them!)...

The whole thing cost them £400 in software. Unfortunately two weeks ago they still insisted on me spending 7 hours a week standing in a library doing duties telling kids to take their coats off... and all for less than six pounds fifty an hour (probably 9-10 USD per hour). They're now looking for three people to replace me. I've now gone self employed and am the cheapest IT person I know even at more than twice the rate they paid me.

The biggest difficulty I found with implementing Linux was getting it to understand our existing username/password database. You have several options, some of them being:

- Make everyone set a new password (bad idea - they'll want to know why)
- Use pwdump.c (available from Samba mirrors) to create an smbpasswd file from your existing NT or 2000 server.
- Use John the Ripper or L0phtcrack to crack your existing account database. This isn't such a great solution, as some passwords could take weeks to crack, and some passwords will get changed after you cracked them.
- Use Winbind, which is part of the Samba suite which will talk to your existing NT/2000 setup and make those user accounts appear as ordinary users. This is an absolutely great solution once it works; you can give them access to any service you want (it works through PAM, so it's as good as having them all in /etc/passwd in many ways) - such as ftp, ssh, local or XDMCP access, you can chown and chmod files and directories to them, and it just works. It can be, however, an absolute nightmare to set up, and so I've written a document on the subject and how to get past a number of random error messages here.
- Read the comments in smb.conf

Management are always a problem, and it's the usual scenario: if it's Free, it has to be crap. If this is a problem, then instead of telling them how good it is, just show them. It's not difficult to find a spare unused machine in a school, or to boot Knoppix onto something, and you only need something with 16 or 32MB to install Debian or an old version of RH onto it and make it a useful server - machines of that calibre of write offs in UK schools right now with all the money the UK government are pumping into them. (This quarter alone, we had £27,000 to spend on IT - something like $40,000.)

Set something up, and implement a feature that your network lacks - quotas, web, email, cloning (use Partition Image - a much nicer replacement to Norton Ghost), proxy server (use Squid and Webmin so that your boss can easily add users to a list of banned people). Consider writing a cronjob to automatically copy everyone's home directory once a day, and then suddenly you'll be able to restore someones work from backup from any particular day or week (depending on how much hard disk space you have - a couple of cheap maxtor 80GB disks or something similar will do the job) in the space of ninety seconds *every time*. No more messing with backup tapes. (But still do tape backups, because you don't know when a lightning strike/minor earth tremor is going to destroy every hard disk...)

Write a manual. "This is how our Linux boxes were set up. The IP is this, here are the open ports, these packages were compiled from sourc

Re:A few suggestions for anyone implementing...

[mpe]

Management are always a problem, and it's the usual scenario: if it's Free, it has to be crap.

It isn't that simple, otherwise no-one would touch ProDesktop (which is an awful piece of software) with a bargepole.

Re:Hacking the high school network..

[madmarcel]

>> (Ah, sweet memories...Anyone here who did NOT hack the high-school computer network? ;)

> I graduated in 1975. IBM came out the the PC in 1981.
> There was no network to hack you insensitive clod. ;-)

heh heh heh

Geeeeeez you must be old! <<grins, ducks and runs for cover>>

but eh....

<nostalgia - eyes glaze over - voice starts to wheeze>
the first computers I got to use in high-school had tape-drives (yay, mini-cassettes :)
and monochrome screens. No hdd's.
Half or more an hour to load a smiple BASIC program, 20 minutes to fiddle with it, end of class.

The next high-school I went to had networked DOS machines with colour screens <<gasp>>, running a Unix emulator (serious!) written in eh...C or BASIC I think. (Press Ctrl+C et voila...i'm at the command-prompt)

Fun things to do in class: Observe what file my neighbour was trying to access from the (woofully underpowered) server, try to open the same file - watch network lock up...end of class.

The last high-school I went to had a network of
Macintosh classics...which was completely overrun by virii and whatnot...that was fun too...NOT.
What did we do with these Macs?
Wordprocessing...in fact, that's all I ever seemed
to do at high-school...glorified word-processing classes.

The best high-school hack I heard of was one where some kid had written a little TSR that would randomly remap all the keys on the keyboard after each key-press. It was probably some sort of boot-virus, and it had spread over that schools entire network. My brother never had any 'computer' classes because of it :o

</nostalgia>

ORRIN HATCH IS A FUCK

[Anonymous Coward]

he's that guy who wants that shit to self-destruct

FUCK YOU

Re:What is MicroSuck waiting for?

[tanguyr]

If this thing takes off, MS will most likely fall all over itself to provide "deep discount" liscensing schemes for education. They're not stupid: this is basic strategy 101 for them - catch 'em when they're YOUNG. A mind is never too young for assimilation. When i went to college there were Macs everywhere... /t

you guys have the smallest cocks in the world

[Anonymous Coward]

and it's as soft as a tissue

and from what i heard about you english/UK folks is that you guys are a bunch of p-p-oussies

all of europse is weak and lame

and who says ares?!!? it's ASS!!

oh yeah and lastly.. "I AM A REAL AMERICAN, FIGHT FOR THE RIGHT OF EVERY MAN"

suck it, english dork

Re:you guys have the smallest cocks in the world

[akpcep]

He's a dork, and you're the one quoting fucking Hulk Hogan's entrance music?

You twat.

SHUT THE FUCK UP

[Anonymous Coward]

go pour some grits down your paaaaaaaants

crazyeist evererr!

[Anonymous Coward]

hey guuys iam jst wonergng what for time time?

http://benz.mine.nu

Re:Hacking the high school network..

[Arker]

I'm not that old, but when I went to High School there was no network also. PCs were still kinda new, now granted, I built my first Sinclair when I was 9, but when I was in High School the whole thing still hadn't really taken off. I'm sure there must have been one or two in the school somewhere, but I can't remember where. We had no computer courses... actually I did have one now that I think about it, but it was a 'gifted' summer school class, not a regular course.

Typing class (on actual typewriters, not computers) was the only thing that actually applied to computers in the regular curriculum I think. And it has actually turned out to be a lot more useful than any high school computer course is likely to be.

The local university, however, did have a network I got into occasionally. That was my first exposure to nethack, running on a univac. Ahh the memories ;)

Kim Jong Il needs a haircut

[Anonymous Coward]

That doo-doo puff is not his style..

Plus he's a bitch.. and should be beaten

I hate communists.. and I truly despise tyrants.. they should all die

Public facilities' funding

[maliabu]

most public schools are living on fundings from government or other sponsors. so if they're switching over to free products, is it possible that they'll get a cut in funding?

eg instead of giving this school $20 million on IT, the government can now assign the money to, say, public transport.

and what would spring to mind when you tell the school board that the software costs nothing but you need extra staff and training etc to set everything up?

sometimes a better product doesn't equal to a better solution. and for some people, they would rather deal with money issue than dealing with time or human resource issues.

this reminds me one of my marketing lectures, which drew an analogy of getting to a beach head first during a battle will always ensure victory.

Correction

[aking137]

This line:

The whole thing cost them £400 in software.

should have read:

The whole thing cost them £400 in

hardware.

Obviuosly. Just to clarify, that got us a cheap box with an AMB Duron 800, 512MB ram, 2x80GB hard disk, 3xRTL-8139 network cards, PCI 128 sound card (sound cards are useful in servers, particularly when you don't normally have a monitor attached - for £15 for the card and some speakers you can program the thing to literally speak to you whenever there's a problem - handy and easily done with Linux).

We also had a problem at Moor Park with kids wasting vast amounts of printer paper and ink all over school. I wanted to use LPRng and Samba to make every workstation print to printers via that server, and that way we could use printer accounting to track/limit what individual kids could print out, and/or bollock them or charge them when they print too much. Unfortunately after discussions with the headteacher I still had to spend every break and lunchtime standing in a library telling kids to take their coats off - in addition to taking my own breaks and lunches.

If your network is well isolated from the Internet (i.e. no-one can initiate a TCP/IP connection from outside), and security isn't your main concern, get yourself a copy of TightVNC (I used 1.2.6, which worked fine for me), and install it on a few workstations. By making a few changes, you can then make the TightVNC server run completely silently in the background (provided you disabled Task Manager for kids, and they can't get a process listing any other way). A few extremely rushed notes from my manual on how to do this:

As local administrator:

• Find the TightVNC installation folder on the server. Run the installation executable file.
• Once installed, right click on start - open all users. Go into programs, find the tightvnc folder, and click cut.
• Right click on start again, click open users, go into programs, and click paste.
• - this stops anyone else getting to it easily.
• go to start - progs - tightvnc, and launch the server.
• go to start - run - regedit
• find hklm\software\orl\winvnc3
• Create: DWORD EnableURLParams = 1 Makes it possible to pass parameters to the embedded webserver
• Create: DWORD DisableTrayIcon = 1 Gets rid of the tray icon.
• Go to start ... administration - install default registry
• go to start ... adminiostration - show default settings
• set the password, and press ok.
• go to start - ad ministrat - install vnc service.
• restart the computer, and log in.

Now you can call up the desktop of any workstation in school by running vncviewer and typing in the machine name of the computer you wish to view. By giving computers sensible names corresponding to their location around school (such as librarydesk1, room21row2col3, food, room18, etc), you can suddenly call up any kid's desktop and see what they're up to. Serious privacy and security concerns, but very useful when weighed up against having to run around the place like a headless chicken all the time because someone else doesn't know what the cAPS lOCK does yet!

If you're running Apache, you can then write a CGI script that gives you a map of all the workstations in the school (formatted, for example, as HTML tables). For each computer on your map, make it link to:

http://10.67.24.116:5800/?password=p5a2s78s243w2 d

- and then you have a clickable map which will bring up the display of any workstation in school in any java enabled web browser. But that's almost completely unsecure, so the risk is your own. Make sure you pick an extremely hard password and that said webpage isn't accessible by kids. Make sure also that no-one can see the password in the URL as they look over your shoulder.

Just to reiterate, that's nothing more than a fun but messy unsecure hack. Don't do this unless at least 50% of your kids have learning/behaviour difficulties...

--

Andrew

Re:Correction

[bhtooefr]

Hmm... Only two kids at my LD/BH school are at least semi-geeks, and one of them is me (I'm a full-blown geek). The other learned his lesson when he googled up some porn, and ended up getting google blocked for everyone. (I was PISSED, because it wasn't the end of the year yet, and nobody could do research without me telling them the Yahoo backdoor...)

Problem with Windows in schools

[Echemus]

It is a shame this is not further reaching, something that has always amused me about Windows, and this is all versions including XP is that it is not properly localised.

I have XP, on my work machine, set up to have my locale set to English [United Kingdom] and yet it still manages to put "Color" into dialogs. It must be rather fustrating to try and teach kids to spell colour in the English way and yet have to use a computer that does not spell it correctly from the UK point of view. If my Gnome2 desktop knows how British people spell Colour, why doesn't XP?

NeTraverse : The SCO connection

[abhikhurana]

From their page: NeTraverse technology supports a single user desktop environment, a multi-user server-computing environment, and a remote virtual network-computing environment. Win4Lin Terminal Server 2.0 is derived from proven technologies developed for Unix® based operating systems over the last 15 years, most notably those of SCO® (Caldera®), under the product name of Merge(tm). This is nothing but an invitation to SCO to sue them, looking the current trend of SCO lawsuits.

FUCK LINUX

[Anonymous Coward]

AnD FuCk YoU All ToO, StInKiNg BaStArDs.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Re: is this really needed ?

[Stephen Samuel]

Well, there might no point in "enforcing" several operating systems early in life. ..... Unless (and sometimes even if...) you're working in the IT or do scientific research, chances are that you'll never have to deal with linux. ..... I don't see myself anytime soon praising the benefits of early "latex editing in emacs" learning.

Similarly, there's even less point in 'enforcing' a Windows-only universe on people. Most people will have Windows at home. Letting them see another OS in school allows them to compare the to and honestly decide which will work better for them.

Linux does not imply Latex, either. I'd expect people to be using things like OpenOffice. Fact of the matter is that not that many people actually work with Windows directly either. They tend to use applications. Windows (or Linux) is really just the base used to start those applications. As long as people have access to the functionality that they need/want, the OS is almost irrelevant.

The best way to get linux into schools...

[TyrranzzX]

Is to build, configure, test, and give them 1-2 machines running linux and offer to support it (the 1 machine) for them, as well as providing texts for their IT department.

Most schools need computers bad, and if you donate an internet computer or 2 to them on the basis they keep linux on it to setup on their network, they'll most likely be happy as hamsters to accept. Just make sure to give them boxes and lisencing, they like boxes and lisencing as most schools are paranoid about these things.

Whu?

[akpcep]

"Enlightened"?

Good job I don't expect unbiased news on /.

Re:My Parents are trolls

[akpcep]

Yeah. The last thing you'd think of doing would be right-clicking the drive icon and selecting 'properties'.

IT'S SO OBTUSE.

OK, lets try and install some software on this linux box... hm configure, make, fucking what switch is that, where the fuck is it, ahh bollocks, I'm obviously NOT SMART ENOUGH to use this alternative OS. That will guarantee it's growth in market share.

most ppl DO complain about the bbc

[ReLik]

I don't mind paying the license fee.

But they are certainly biased in their broadcasting, everyone knows it here. (UK)

Advertising

[Anonymous Coward]

Did nobody notice that this post is an advertisement? It's a story about NeTraverse posted by NeTraverse.. And they weren't even smart enough to prepare to be slashdotted? Not sure I would take these guys too seriously.

Yet another company.....

[Anonymous Coward]

....that are going to try and persuade me to ditch my NetWare servers for linux ones....Good software is worth paying for and besides NetWare and all the extras cost hardly anything if your a school - and you can't beet the uptime....200+ days no prob!

Security model

[Anonymous Coward]

"And it will be placed in an environment where
its security-model will get thoroughly tested"
Erm, kinda like the internet, only better?

Re:Hacking the high school network..

[Doug Loss]

Oh, you children. In high school, we had to write our programs in Fortran on coding sheets, take them to the local community college, keypunch the code onto a card deck, and either take the deck to the guys in the glass room (when they'd let us have access at all) or load and run them ourselves on an already-elderly IBM 1620, which had less memory and capability than the cheapest of pocket calculators today. All the output was on greenbar paper from a TTY terminal. When we got to use a PDP-7 with a punched paper tape reader, we thought we were in heaven!

This won't be taken up in any quantity

[markh1967]

I work for local government school IT support in the UK and I know just how this will be viewed by the rest of the department when I show it to them tomorrow morning - "not a chance of us supporting this" will be the mantra. I probably have the most Linux experience of anyone in the department and that is just because I've played around with the Knoppix bootable cd.

I can only speak for my county (in the top three for IT support in the country according to government figures released recently - we all have an extra day's leave this year as a performance bonus), but it is Windows all the way. I know of only one school in the county that has a Linux server and they are going to swap it for a Windows server because they can't get any support for it - it was installed by a parent of a child who has now left the school).

Using Linux on an admin system is just out of the question - most UK schools run SIMS: 'School Information Management System' and won't even consider buying a system that won't run this software. The curriculum software market is dominated by RM. Their SchoolShare and StoreBox" systems are very popular with primary schools due to the large amount of pre-installed educational software that is strongly tied into the National Curriculum and their Community Connect 3 systems are common in larger schools.

I can't see many schools choosing to go with Linux when Windows is so ubiquitous - it would mean giving up just about all local government IT support other than hardware repairs and going it alone and I just can't see that happening in more than a handful of schools.

Re:This won't be taken up in any quantity

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you even get the point of what these guys are trying to do? They are trojan horsing Linux into the system by offering the provision of Windows applications on Linux - ergo cheaper than on Windows servers. And in the meantime, the schools will now have Linux in-house and can expand the use and familiarity. The Win4Lin system does not exclude remote displaying Linux apps to the desktop, it only adds Windows apps - and in the UK, Microsoft has total monopoly on education software. There is no other way to get Linux in wide use in the schools unless you start by having Linux run the mandatory Windows applications.

How about...

[phorm]

Why should money be wasted on Microsoft licenses when it could be spend on something more useful? Maybe even education.

Usually, the IT budget is seperate from the (non-IT) educational budget. Instead of funneling the money out of IT, most smart schools will use it in a more productive way.

Usually, this means that you end of having more up-to-date machines, perhaps some better peripherals, and (here's the one that surprises many) better support.

Think about this: If the hardware is more up-to-date, you have less hardware failures. Without windows, there are less viruses/etc attacking the systems. With linux, remote support can be nice and snappy (either SSH or a tunnelled X11 session), with sometimes almost immediate support. Thin clients or remote desktops can allow for nice "demos" of new programs, with a presenter showing to many different users from a centralized location.
And yes, this is all possible, and all being done in fact. I've seen it. Don't renew those MS licenses, you've got much better places to put your budget money!

Anything similar in the USA ?

[Dave21212]

This is an interesting idea. I have a few contacts in the local school system and I just don't have the time to demo some of the things that I suggest they look into... a roadshow seems like a great way to put this out there !

anyone know of anything like this in the USA (East Coast, Mid-Atlantic )? - TIA

Great way to run 5 year-old MS technology

[melonman]

I really don't get this product. It lets you run Windows 95, 98 or ME, none of which are great for a networking envirinment, over a network, and this is progress? The end result can't be any more stable than Windows 98, at least on a terminal to terminal basis.

Alternatively, they could run LTSP and rdesktop on one server, buy licences for W2K or 2003 server at a 90% educational discount to run on another server, and pay for the licences by selling their hard discs from the terminals to the school kids...

Win4Lin is developed using technology from SCO

[tats]

http://www.netraverse.com/products/wts/technology. php

Re:Win4Lin is developed using technology from SCO

[Anonymous Coward]

You've misread the page. Your statement is absolutely untrue. SCO licenses the Win4Lin technology and sells it on UNIX under the NeTraverse product name Merge. The technology is NeTraverse's.

FX: Chin hits floor

[Burb]

Wow. Now I'm scared. Really scared :-) Useless, but very impressive-looking.

WSH

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, it's called Windows Script Host.

Re:Hacking the high school network..

[Anonymous Coward]

...and when going to the glass room, we had to walk uphill both ways! (you insensitive clod!) (PROFIT!!)