Most Powerful Amateur Rocket in Canada

Alex Schmidt writes "A group of Canadian 'amateur' rocketeers successfully launched a 16 1/2 foot rocket to a height of about 5500 feet. The rocket is based on the 'Dauphine' a meteorological rocket from the 1960's. The rocket weighed 300 pounds, stood 16.5 feet high and 21 inches in diameter. The motors generated 2400lbs of thrust. It successfully landed after 3 of 4 parachutes properly deployed."

Comments

Engine?

[mgcsinc]

Did they use a "C" engine or were they able to stick a "D" in that baby?

Re:Engine?

[proctorg76]

According to the letter code used by the National Association of Rocketry ( http://www.nar.org ), each letter has twice the power of the class before it and a "D" class engine generates between 2.5 and 5 lbs of thrust. The article claims 2,400 lbs of thrust, so by doubling the power range until it includes 2400 it is revealed that this would be an "L" class engine.

Re:Engine?

[NanoWit]

So that would put a Saturn V (~7,500,000 lb.) at one letter past Z (AA?)

Re:Engine?

[Tyler Eaves]

Nope. That would put it at 5Y. The first stage had 5 F1 engines.

Re:Engine?

[kireK]

Nope, wrong again...

According to the specs from Rockets of the World, the SaturnV is as follows;

Stage 1 was 5,800,000,000 N-s, which would make it 5xAC

Stage 2 was 1,200,000,000 N-sec or a 5xAB

Stage 3 was 450,000,000 N-sec or a AC motor

Re:Engine?

[RedWizzard]

According to the project page the total impulse is close to the limit of O class, just under 41,000Ns.

Blame Canada!

[Ricin]

Sorry, got flashbacks from the South Park movie. I can almost see Rummy deliver the speech.

All your base are belong to Ontario...

[Anonymous Coward]

Canada has set us up the bomb!

Re:All your base are belong to Ontario...

[Anonymous Coward]

Ontario? Grab an Atlas, Calgary is in Alberta.

If that was in US...

[Anonymous Coward]

They would be arrested already, under the patriot act, for developing terrorist weapons...

MacKenzie Brothers in Space

[AtariAmarok]

Somewhere near Sudbury....

"Hey Doug, watch me shake up this Molson's 12 pack, like, real good and hard, eh?"

"Eh, Bob, let's open them all at once"

WHOOSHHHH!!!!

Was it really impressive?

[mnmn]

Am I the only one who feels the rocket should have done better than 6000 feet? In the highest amateur rocket records,Ive seen 30 kilometers for about the same size of a rocket. Maybe that was liquid propelled and multistaged.

It was impressive though and looked like an anti aircraft missile.

Re:Was it really impressive?

[Tyler Eaves]

I can kinda understand limiting the height.

2 major reasons.

1: A lot less is needed as far as permits / permissions.
2: Better chances of recovery...

Re:Was it really impressive?

[Yo Grark]

That's 6000 US feet, here in canada' that's like at least 20,000. :)

Yo Grark
Canadian Bred with American Buttering.

Re:Was it really impressive?

[Anonymous Coward]

I was thinking the same. You can get 6K out of a G or H class, maybe it was a typo of 55,000 feet?. It is ashame they didn't discuss more of the technical details. The plume makes it look like amonium nitrate/magnesium or aluminum.

Curious,
Frank

Re:Was it really impressive?

[taniwha]

we've flown similar rockets to 100k ft at Blackrock in the US - the Canadian rocket looks big and heavy to me - similar to this one that flew to a similar height on larger motors.

100k ft is REALLY hard to reach - motors are extremely expensive and the technology is not wonderfully reliable. Mind you the US govt just banned all our motors due to the 'Patriot' act. On the other hand flying a light weight rocket to 6k is easy, people do it all the time - on cardboard and plywood - 100k requires lightweight composite materials that can stand flying thru mach 3

Re:Model rockets..

[ksb]

When the fuel runs out..... the earth!

Re:Model rockets..

[WIAKywbfatw]

What's the attraction?

Chicks dig things that big, that aerodynamic and with that much thrust.

Rockets are old!

[sploxx]

They are doing cool stuff!

But this reminds me that someone should develop/build something better than rockets for reaching the space. They've been used for a too long time now.

There are alternatives... electromagnetic propulsion, laser heated plasma propulsion etc.pp.
It is technically feasible. But noone seems to be interested in it.
The scientists doing such stuff are unfortunately short of money...

Re:Rockets are old!

[ZachReligious]

Like the Jules Verne Gun. Saw this on a discovery or history channel show about super guns. Interesting, and presumably a much cheaper way to launch small payloads (eventually).

Re:Rockets are old!

[Planesdragon]

It is technically feasible. But noone seems to be interested in it.

That's because it's only theoretically feasible. The USAF and NASA have been working on alternate methods of reaching space for decades now, and their tests haven't been roaring successes.

Got an alternative that works? Apply for a grant, test it, and then sell it to USAF / NASA. If you can't get a grant yourself, go find someone who can get grants and sell your idea to them.

Damn, guess the invasion's off

[Yo Grark]

And just when I'd thought we'd finally mustered up the full might of our canadian army and air force to attack America, the parachutes deployed.

Oh well, guess we'll continue taking over the hollywood, maple syrup conglomerate and beer industries. :P

Yo Grark
Canadian Bred with American Buttering.

Re:Damn, guess the invasion's off

[Call Me Black Cloud]

Behave or we'll move one of your 6 remaining hockey teams to someplace silly like Puerto Rico.

As this is a new "extended format" comment you are now presented deleted scenes:

Don't make us cut off your F-18 parts supply (and who do you think you're fooling by painting cockpits on the bottom of the plane?)

(to the tune of O Christmas Tree) O Canada O Canada / How yummy is your bacon / I eat it each and every day / Along with toast and scrambled eggs...

Je Me Souviens this, punk.

In a (vain) attempt at disscussion...

[fiftyvolts]

I read the article, and it seems to me that what these 4 guys did was quite impressive. The article mentions this was the largest launch in Canadian History. Anyone know what the largest anywhere was?

What I am really happy about is the amount of publicity they got. Having the rocket being put in a museum and making a Discovery Channel special about the event is going to catch a lot of people attention. Well maybe not that many, but at least the people who care about space exploration.

Perhaps amateurs like these guys will lead to private space travel organizations.

Re:In a (vain) attempt at disscussion...

[khallow]

Anyone know what the largest anywhere was?

I believe it's the Saturn V at 3,038,500 kg (I'm not sure how the mass is derived here perhaps with maximum payload and fuel?). The Energia is smaller (2,524,600 kg) with a slightly greater thrust at launch. This meant that the Saturn could lift somewhat more to orbit than the Energia. In comparison, the Shuttle is 2,029,633 kg.

Re:In a (vain) attempt at disscussion...

[Anonymous Coward]

>> Anyone know what the largest anywhere was? If you are talking in terms of non-professional rocketry and largest altitude record, I believe it was set by Craig Snyder (US) in 2001. He used a multistage rocket (Type M engines) which reached a very respectable 34,988 ft. You can find most non-professional records here.

They used *two* ounces of baking soda.

[blair1q]

Cripes. I can fart olives higher than 5500 feet.

Re:They used *two* ounces of baking soda.

[Icculus]

Cripes. I can fart olives higher than 5500 feet.

This needs to go in the fortune file somewhere...

Uh... SI units anyone ?

[deniea]

Why is the article so confusing about the units ?

The rocket is 16 feet 1/2 foot high, diameter in inches, weight in pound as is the thrust..

Then they move on to the landing zone, and switch to meters for that and also where the crouwd was watching, then back again to pounds..

Confusing read..

Why can't they stick to real scientific notations, all with SI units ??

Re:Uh... SI units anyone ?

[Merlynnus]

Here in er, Canuckistan as I believe some of the Yanks took to calling it, most of us are able to switch effortlessly back and forth between SI and Imperial. For height and weight of things, you'll find typically find we use feet, inches, and pounds (force). You know, people, watermellon, and rockets. Most other measurements use SI. Distance, temperature, viscosity, etc. Mind you, I've never seen vehicles rated by anything other than hp and lb-ft torque. Can you imagine Watts and kN-m?

Re:Uh... SI units anyone ?

[Guppy06]

"How can people in the 21th century measure forces or torques with units like "a pound at the lenght of the feet of a old king"

We don't. The legal definition of the foot in most countries that still use it is "30.48 centimeters." In fact, in the US, the foot has been defined in metric terms since the nineteenth century.

"And i still cant realize the beauty of a system of lenght units that convert like"

Well, for one thing, you're never going to confuse ounce with pounds or yards with miles. I recall seeing an article from the UK about a doctor that accidentally gave a fatal overdose to a newborn because he confused miligrams with micrograms.

"how many yards are 0.34 miles?"

Decimals are not the end-all be-all of numbers. They have the nasty habit of repeating when describing perfectly rational numbers. SI is nice and all, but I still don't see it as being the alpha and omega of arbitrary measurement systems.

Re:Uh... SI units anyone ?

[ColaMan]

Can you imagine Watts and kN-m?
In Australia, vehicles have been rated in kW and kN-M for some years now (10-15 years)

All the car ads in the media mention vehicle specs in metric units. For example, the car (a Holden commodore) I drive has a 156kW buick-derived V6 in it, or you can get a 235kW V8.

Whilst I can convert kW to HP fairly easily in my head, why bother when everything else on the market uses the same units these days?

Attack Of The Clones?

[WIAKywbfatw]

Is it me or do the three guys pictured in the article look like they're identical? I mean, even their baseball caps, t-shirts and footwear are the same and their only distinguishing features are their trousers - presumably so that they can tell each other apart.

Hmmm, clones with rockets. Where have I heard that before?

Re:Under Heathrow

[gkAndy]

I somehow doubt the FAA have jurisdiction for the airspace around, and above Heathrow. That would be the CAA that does, as Heathrow is in the UK, which is not a federal country.

Re:Looks like good fun

[mikeophile]

If you want to do this in the US, here is the appropriate waiver form.

You just have to make sure your launch conforms to the following regulations.

May not be operated in a prohibited or restricted area without permission from the using or controlling agency, as appropriate [14 CFR 101.3]
May not be operated in a manner that creates a hazard to people or property [14 CFR 101.7(a)]
May not drop anything that creates a hazard to people or property [14 CFR 101.7(b)]
If within a restricted area, must: [14 CFR 101.21]

Not be operated within 1500 feet of any person or property not associated with the operations [14 CFR 101.23(g)]
Comply with additional limitations imposed by the using or controlling agency, as appropriate. [14 CFR 101.21]

If not within a restricted area, must: [14 CFR 101.21]

Not operate in a manner that creates a collision hazard with other aircraft [14 CFR 101.23(a)] Not operate within controlled airspace [14 CFR 101.23(b)]
Not operate within 5 miles of the border of any airport [14 CFR 101.23(c)]
Not fly to altitude where cloud coverage is greater than 50% [14 CFR 101.23(d)]
Not fly to any altitude where the visibility is less than 5 miles [14 CFR 101.23(e)]
Not fly into any clouds [14 CFR 101.23(f)]
Not operate closer than 1500 feet from anyone not involved [14 CFR 101.23(g)]
Not fly between sunset and sunrise [14 CFR 101.23(h)]
Notify the nearest FAA Air Traffic Control center 24-48 hours before the launch [14 CFR 101.25]

In addition, your rocket itself has certain limitations.

Section 400.2 [14 CFR 400.2], which explicitly exempts "amateur rocket activities" from these regulations.
Section 401.5 [14 CFR 401.5], which defines "amateur rocket activities" as follows: "Amateur rocket activities means launch activities conducted at private sites involving rockets powered by a motor or motors having a total impulse of 200,000 pound-seconds or less and a total burning or operating time of less than 15 seconds, and a rocket having a ballistic coefficient--i.e., gross weight in pounds divided by frontal area of rocket vehicle--less than 12 pounds per square inch."

BTW, the Canadian rocket had a ballistic coefficient of 6.93 lbs per square inch.

Project website...

[el33thack3r]

Project Dauphin website is here.

False Positive on missile defense

[rodney dill]

Sounds like an invitation for NORAD to fire on Canada.

Seriously, just how big and how high do these missiles have be, before they attract military attention of an undesired nature.

Re:False Positive on missile defense

[stpats]

You are aware, I hope, that Canada is involved in NORAD? The North American Aerospace Defense Command. NORAD Quickfacts

Re:Looks like good fun

[homebru]

Controls? Go! Engine? Go! Parachutes? Go!

Guidance? ... Guidance? ... Hello?

Re:Under Heathrow

[BrainInAJar]

USA: FAA
Britain: CAA
Canada: Transport Canada.

We got ripped off on government agency names.

Michael Moore Movie

[rodney dill]

It'll be in his next movie, that Michael Moore was able to purchase one of these, with out registration, at a Tim Hortons.

5500 feet?

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow, 5500 whole feet ?

I reached about that in 1988 with a 4-stage model rocket using Estes "D" engines.

Good to see the Canadians finally catching up to us in hobbyist technology.

As far as reaching LEO, they're about 2% of the way there. This sure is front page news!

Re:Missile Defense

[rich_r]

Can I build my own mega-missile and launch it a mile up whenever I feel like doing it?
Yes. Just not twice....

In other news...

[kevlar]

In other news...

Djibouti constructed its largest steam powered tractor. Its expected to till 40 tons of soil a year.

Which proves

[geekoid]

my throy tha the alledged country 'Canada' is actually a place where world power conduct rogue sciencintific experments.
All for the sole purpose of:
CATCHING FAIRY GODPARENTS!!

Bush Doctrine

[fruity1983]

We cannot entertain the threat that Canada's new missile technology poses. Canada, you must immediately relent to weapons inspections. Your aggression will not be tolerated.

Make your "rocket" Bigger and Longer...

[NotQuiteReal]

I think I can get something to help you do that... let me check my deleted mail folder. I am sure I saw something about that somewhere...

Most Powerful Amateur in Canada

[jamonterrell]

"16.5 feet ... 21 inches in diameter ... 2400lbs of thrust"

I just got this same spam last week in my inbox.

Homeland Security Act might kill the hobby in US

[Geekonomical]

I attended a lecture by a bay area ameteur rocketry group. In their presentation they said HLS act might kill the hobby. Maybe Canada can continue. I am not against such laws per se, since we are dealing with extremely powerful machines that can wreak havoc if used with wrong intentions, but I wonder the future of amateur rocketry in present circumstances.

Misunderstanding

[megabyte405]

Pardon me if I'm wrong, but I'm noticing a fair amount of "woohoo, I reached 5500 feet with [insert hobby rocket engine here]". However, if you read the article, or think about the Slashdot article, you'll notice that it's not the height that's important, it's the thrust. Most powerful, not highest flying.

26 letters oughta be enough...

[Regul8or]

for any rocket.

Actually, it's an "O"

[forged]

Actually, their website says the rocket "featuring a central Cesaroni Pro150 O impulse rocket motor." Also explains why they picked up such a name, Team "O" :-)