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Bad Testing Doomed NASA's Hypersonic X-43A

RobertB-DC writes "Space.com got hold of NASA's yet-to-be-released report on the June 2001 failure of the air-breathing X-43A hypersonic research vehicle, and it doesn't look good for 'Faster, Better, Cheaper'. The report refuses to single out any one contributing factor, but it cites ground testing 'inaccuracies' and 'misinterpretation' of wind tunnel data -- in particular, failure to retest the vehicle after additional heat protection was added. As noted in the original Slashdot article, the craft went out of control when the fins broke off just seconds into flight."

54 of 233 comments (clear)

  1. KOTHF. by Grendel+Drago · · Score: 4, Interesting

    You know, stuff like this really inspires me. I'm in the middle of reading Kings of the High Frontier, which was first published in the mid-nineties. A major plot point is a wealthy industrialist offering a half-billion dollar prize similar to the X-Prize. Even a few years ago, I never thought we'd be seeing so many groups trying for their own cheap launch. It should have been done years ago.

    Some people complain that the X-Prize doesn't really get anywhere---that tossing yourself a hundred kilometers above sea level is a far cry from low earth orbit. This is true. Maybe the X-Prize will be the first in a series of cash prizes to spur even more invention. First single-stage to orbit, first real space station, first craft assembled in space... I don't know what the next milestones will be, but we'll get there faster if there's cash money incentive.

    Oh, and would wetsuits work as space suits? There's no way the heat would really bleed off, and if you could lead-line them for heat shielding...

    The quote from KOTHF is "Space suits for NASA cost a million bucks a shot and are about as comfortable as wearing pork barrels. I found this research report from the nineteen-sixties by a team that ought to have won the contract bid, except that their suits only cost a thousand dollars each and could be done by any seamstress. NASA probably figured that would have looked cheap, so for three decades astronauts have been lugging around thirty layers of cloth and a refrigerator when they could have been dressed in Spandex tights." [...] "The difference between down here and up there is only one measly atmosphere of pressure. Our skin is strong enough to withstand that gradient. It has quite a bit of tensile strength. The only problem is that it stretches too well. That means we swell up, which drops the pressure in our bloodstream, so our blood outgasses and vapor-locks our hearts. With just this second skin to keep our body volume constant, we don't expand. So we don't boil." (From ch. 11.)

    Can anyone with a background in anything relating to that confirm or deny?

    --grendel drago

    --
    Laws do not persuade just because they threaten. --Seneca
  2. Re: light spacesuits by mikeee · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Not an expert, but have read on this elsewhere:

    Wetsuits (probably reinforced with kevlar or something, why not) would probably be fine; actually, filling any small internal gaps with water would be a good trick to insure a perfect fit (any gaps in the suit and you get Giant Space Hickeys, and we don't want that!). You'ld need a fishbowl helmet, of course.

    Heat might be tricky. Space is cold, but there's no air, so shedding heat is surprisingly hard. I'm not sure if overheating or freezing would be the main problem for humans in moderately insulated suits.

  3. faster, better, cheaper... by 10+Speed · · Score: 5, Funny

    The X-43A MIB report underscores the fact that the Hyper-X launch vehicle contract was developed under the faster, better, cheaper philosophy

    the rules clearly state that you may only choose 2 of the above!!

  4. Well obviously.. by Exiler · · Score: 3, Funny

    they didn't train enough!

    --
    Banaaaana!
  5. Yeah right. by The+Old+Burke · · Score: 4, Insightful
    he report refuses to single out any one contributing factor, but it cites ground testing 'inaccuracies' and 'misinterpretation' of wind tunnel data -- in particular, failure to retest the vehicle after additional heat protection was added.
    Sounds like a classic NASA math failure to me.

    --
    Proud patriot and republican voter.
  6. Why can't we work through failure?? by Captain_Loser · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Why is it that nasa has the philosophy of faster better cheaper? Although it has had some success the philosophy leads to more failure. Its obvious that the public seems to want more space based research, trips to mars, etc. So why does nasa feel that it needs to drop a project at any hint of failure?

    --
    -=You might be a geek if your computer is worth more than your car=-
    1. Re:Why can't we work through failure?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Because of fear of an accident. That's the main reason they don't want to go to Mars, etc. It would be a complete embarassment if a mission to Mars, or something of the sort, messed up. NASA would never recover. Shuttle disasters are just like car crashes - they aren't really out of the ordinary (that is, the missions), so they don't draw much attention to when they crash, compared to what would happen if it was a Mars mission, etc, so they aren't really comparable.

    2. Re:Why can't we work through failure?? by Captain_Loser · · Score: 2, Interesting

      But isn't making mistakes part of the game. I just think this faster cheaper crap is causing trouble. If we could maybe not be as concerned (still concerned but not completely) concerned about costs. All projects base everything on costs, this won't change, this is how the world works. But maybe we should scale down having 80 different projects and focus the limited funds on one goal.

      --
      -=You might be a geek if your computer is worth more than your car=-
    3. Re:Why can't we work through failure?? by EvilOpie · · Score: 5, Insightful

      As far as I understand, the faster better cheaper philosophy came from back when NASA was working on several research probes that were to be launched into space, but were having problems with implimenting their plans under the old philosophy.

      See, at the time NASA had the "everything and the kitchen sink" philosophy where they would work on building a probe and put every instrument they could think of on it. Problem is that it would take a very long time to build, and it would cost a ton of money. Plus, if they ever lost one, then all that work was down the drain. So they came up with their "faster, better, cheaper" philosophy where instead of launching huge space probes with tons of equipment on them, they started to build smaller ones with less equipment on them. When they did that, they saved costs in what it took to build one, plus they cut down on the build time. And in the event of a failure, they weren't out quite as much on a probe as they were before.

      So as far as I know, that's where the faster better cheaper philosophy came from. But like it was noted before... "Pick any two". I mean, you've got to have some give somewhere in there.

      --
      -Through the server, over the router, off the firewall... Nothing but 'Net!
    4. Re:Why can't we work through failure?? by kfg · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The engineers who formulated and put the faster, better, cheaper model to work expected, indeed predicted, a much higher failure rate than had been the norm.

      These people weren't stupid or something and knew just as well as any person with something on the ball, such as yourself, that a high failure rate was inherent in the model.

      Doing it fast and cheap is relatively better in the long run on the throwing enough speghetti against the wall process. A lot of it falls off, but some of it sticks, and speghetti is dirt cheap so the stuff that falls on the floor doesn't matter.

      However, as the other poster notes, NASA is a government beaurcracy, and run by beaureacrats, not the engineers.

      Beaureaucrats punish failure and assign blame. The more failure you can point at and the more blame you assess the more you justify your job.

      The other thing they do is develop massive control programs, requiring that they have personal control over a large budget and many subordinates, to "prevent" failure.

      It's the violence inherent in the system.

      You can't tell these people when they come knocking on your door and asking why your sattelite blew up, "Dude, we built twenty of 'em on the cheap, we'll just send up another."

      That just makes them confiscate everything you've got and slash your budget, which they then add to theirs.

      You haven't fallen into the trap of believing that NASA is about engineering, science and the gathering of data, have you?

      Silly boy.

      KFG

    5. Re:Why can't we work through failure?? by Moofie · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I disagree.

      The Apollo 1 fire was as traumatic as an accident could be, yet the program pulled itself up by its bootstraps and proceeded to hit their milestone.

      I certainly wouldn't argue that NASA, as it is curently chartered, would survive a Mars mission disaster, but frankly I don't think they'll ever have a chance to do so. NASA is impotent.

      --
      Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
    6. Re:Why can't we work through failure?? by ruprechtjones · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The Apollo 1 fire was as traumatic as an accident could be, yet the program pulled itself up by its bootstraps and proceeded to hit their milestone.

      But remember this was in a different time. The cold war was a motivating factor for the Apollo program, so more risk was acceptable. Nowadays that kind of failure would be a 1.5-2 year setback, at least.

      I agree, NASA is impotent. What can be done to further our space program either without them, or without this 100% reliance on them? Something has to be done, dammit, I at least want to visit LEO before I die.

      --
      Kip Hawley is an idiot.
  7. Billy Joe Hickock, Nasa Aerospace Engineer by dook43 · · Score: 5, Funny

    Damn it, Bobby Ted! That JB Weld was supposed to hold them goldang fins on tight....lemme check that thar tube. You dumb ass! It says that it holds in temperatures up to 200 degrees F not 2000! Get that antenna out of your ass!

    --
    This comment was randomly generated by a school of piranhas chewing on the PCB of a Microsoft Natural Keyboard.
  8. Just leave it to the x-prize guys... by Perdition · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I personally don't see this governmental fiddling with space lasting much longer, seeing how commercial interests and private (albeit wealthy) citizens are starting to push the cold, dark envelope of space travel. If I could make an outlandish prediction, I'd guess that by 2020, we'll have a ship or two with no real flag-bearing duties on the Moon. I personally hope we find a complete replacement for manned vehicles altogether, but exploration has demands for the flexible, so humans will probably still be risked as a result.

    Remember, you don't fly in a "Wright" airplane, it's a Boeing... let commercial interests take over where purist experimentation leaves off.

    --
    Windows XP SP2 told me to install third-party software that prevents viruses and protects stability... I chose Ubuntu
    1. Re:Just leave it to the x-prize guys... by Timesprout · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You seem to be overlooking the fact that the X-Prize guys have not really achieved anything substantial at this point in time, and by substantial I mean compared to NASA'a achievements. The 2020 prediction looks pretty optimistic to me given the cost of space exploration with no short to medium term ROI its difficult to see the private sector putting the money up. More likely is that in 2100 private investors will be demanding NASA share their technology so they can jump on the bandwagon.

      Also in the current climate I cant see any way the US government would allow independent development of technology which could ultimately be used to destroy at a stroke the technology advantage the US currently enjoys.

      --
      Do not try to read the dupe, thats impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth
      What truth?
      There is no dupe
  9. Testing by Bigfishbowl · · Score: 5, Insightful

    You know, I'm not sure that the whole slashdot crowd understands how hard it is to test these sort of things. I mean my university has been doing subcontracting for NASA and I have to say, these people there are really smart. I'm not talking business major to business major, I mean EE to Ph.D EE - these guys are dumb so please don't refer to them as such. Imagine though, any huge project, no matter how well constructed, basically comes down to a single person decieding or desidgning something (the so called single point failure). Do you think you could be that person?

    1. Re:Testing by Loudog · · Score: 5, Insightful

      At the risk of feeding the flames:

      I worked as a contractor to NASA for a year on various network projects. My father was a "rocket scientist" for the Atlas and Mercury programs, so I have some knowledge of what excellence in space programs should look like.

      What I saw was very scary. The politics were intense and the science was very spotty. It was not a good experience. It was proof that a Ph.D doesn't mean that you can think.

      Much of the folks that worked on my project (with up to 10 years of NASA experience) think that NASA is full of idiots. And -- for but the occational flash of true genius I saw -- I'd have to agree with them. We certainly wouldn't be able to accomplish the equivalent of a "moon shot" with today's NASA. Sad. They used to have the right "one person", they don't anymore.

      I certainly don't use the phrase "takes a rocket scientist to..." because I've seen NASA in action. Ouch.

      YMMV.

      Everyone needs a cause: Stamp out phase jitter!

    2. Re:Testing by Moofie · · Score: 2, Insightful

      For what it's worth, I believe that the people, and the technology, are there.

      It's the politics and the bureaucracy that are destroying them. Unfortunate.

      --
      Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
  10. NASA: Are they slacking? by jbottero · · Score: 3, Interesting

    There have been consistent stories in the press about a certain slack in attention to detail at NASA of late. And, as an Air Force guy, I wonder how they could design a wing leading edge that can't take a hit from some hard foam, we get bird-strike all the time! Even a C-17 can take a 30 pound goose at 400 knots...

    1. Re:NASA: Are they slacking? by CrowScape · · Score: 2, Funny

      But the wing's structure could take the hit from a piece of hard foam. The problem was the heat tiles are so increadibly fragile that they broke apart, at which point, the leading edge of the wing could no longer survive going Mach 25 in an atmosphere. If you can find a stronger substance that has the same heat properties as the tiles on the shuttle, that's one thing, otherwise, can a C-17's wings handle Mach 25 in an atmosphere?

      --
      common sense: noun
      What those who are ignorant of the subject matter think; usually wrong.
    2. Re:NASA: Are they slacking? by Firethorn · · Score: 2, Interesting

      So you have to replace the shield after each mission, so what? The shuttle has to be largely rebuilt anyways after each flight with the tiles inspected/replaced during the process (they loose a bunch each flight). The people pushing for a return to ballistic re-entries (I'm one of them), is that putting stuff into space is so expensive and stressfull that trying to build/use reusable parts is a waste of weight and money (and weight=lots of money). If you have reusable parts, they should be light/sturdy/expensive enough to justify the 'expense' of any extra weight needed to bring them back. The shuttle is not.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
  11. Nasa died 1969 by Crashmarik · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Nasa as a forward looking organization died in 69. Ever since then its been a zombie a shadow of its former self. Its been almost continuous decline in the post apollo era. Take a look at the programs that followed.

    Skylab vs ISS Alpha
    Direct easy and done safely v.s. Pointless

    X-15 vs X29, X43 and the other spaceplane projects

    The only significant manned space vehicle since the apollo program is the shuttle. While it is one thing for hero's to lose their lives in the conquest of a new frontier, its another to lose life because a congressional district in utah needed make work or nasa's beuracracy wouldn't listen to outsiders.

    If there is any hope of man in space, it will come from private entrepeneurs and perhaps other countries.

    1. Re:Nasa died 1969 by m00nun1t · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Agree completely. But look at what happened in the 60's - they had the President in public state "We will put a man on the moon by the end of this decade". They had a *clearly* defined goal to work towards, and were resourced to do it.

      What are they working on now? Do they have such a strong, defined, focused goal? Such strong executive leadership? No wonder they are floundering.

  12. The fins broke off?! by Ignorant+Aardvark · · Score: 3, Funny

    Wow, I've heard of ghetto engineering ... but the fins just flat fell off a second into the flight?! C'mon, I expect much better of NASA. Hell, even I can manage to launch a rocket whose fins will stay fully attached until the parachute burns through and the entire assemblage smacks into the ground, sending fin particles everywhere. But that's MANY seconds after launch, not only a few.

  13. The end of NASA. by Grendel+Drago · · Score: 5, Interesting

    NASA has some damn smart people working there. NASA does really nice basic research. NASA sucks ass at applying it.

    Look at the various inventions that fell out of the space program as little extras. Look at all the technology that was invented. That's what NASA does well.

    Now look at the Shuttle, which didn't meet a single one of its design parameters---it's technically not even reusable, it's salvageable. Look at the criminally high cost of launching mass into LEO. Look at NASA's inability to really deliver on the applied end of things. That's what NASA can't do.

    I suggest Kings of the High Frontier as required reading for anyone interested in learning how NASA has failed to deliver on its promise of space access due to its fetishization of research-heavy boondoggles. The book is fiction, but extensively researched. (The discussion on unpressurized spacesuits fell out of an off-the-cuff reference the author made.)

    Leave it to the X-Prize competitors, and their successors. The Space Shuttle is at the very limit of complexity that's possible to construct, which is why NASA has been unable to replace it. (Did you know there are literally hundreds of "Criticality One" components in the shuttle, the failure of any one of which could cause the shuttle's destruction?)

    Okay, this seems like a rant about the Shuttle. But it's really about NASA, and the way in which they do things. It's not an indictment against the people who work there; the scientists and engineers of NASA are without equal. Their efforts are being squandered. The future does not belong to NASA, and it hasn't since they cancelled Apollo.

    --grendel drago

    --
    Laws do not persuade just because they threaten. --Seneca
  14. A ridiculous concept from the start by topher_k · · Score: 5, Informative

    I worked for one of the companies involved in this program, although not directly on the program itself.

    Let's see, we've got a scramjet test aircraft, which will be boosted to hypersonic speeds by a modified Pegasus rocket, which will be dropped from a B-52. So, besides developing the scramjet test aircraft, an interface system between the Pegasus and the X-43A needs to be designed and the whole system tested.

    That didn't bother me too much. What really got me was what the point of the program was in the first place. The goal was to test the ability of a scramjet engine to propel an aircraft at hypersonic speeds. The Pegasus booster was supposed to accelerate the test aircraft to hypersonic speeds, then detach, at which point the scramjet would be started and the instrumentation would transmit 10 seconds of data. Besides the limited amount of data, if I recall correctly, the scramjet was not supposed to even maintain the aircraft's speed, which calls into question the value of the technology as a means of propulsion, in my opinion.

    If I recall, the contract value was $33 million, and was significantly overrun. Your tax dollars at work (if you're American).

    --
    They'll get my encryption algorithm when they pry it from my cold, dead hard drive.
    1. Re:A ridiculous concept from the start by sllim · · Score: 2, Informative

      To appreciate the test you have to have a basic understanding of what the scramjet does.

      A scramjet seperates the hydrogen and oxygen molecules in the atmosphere and uses the hydrogen molecules as fuel for the engine.
      In doing this you have an engine that can go significantly faster, an engine that uses up a fraction of the fuel load of traditional aircraft and an aircraft that expels significantly less harmful waste in the atmosphere then a traditional jet engine.

      The downside is that the engine is not physicaly capable of working until it has attained an almost rediculous speed. Something like Mach 3. The damn thing won't even light before that.

      So if you have a need for an aircraft that flies faster then mach 3 then this is a goal worth striving for.

      NASA (as well as other organizations) have been able to 'light up' the engine in wind tunnel tests. But as of the time this test failed (I think the Australians got it to work a few months later) no one was able to even get an engine like this to lite up outside of the labortory.

      What this test was designed to achieve was simply to see if they could get the engine to function at all. They wanted to see if they could get the engine to seperate the hydrogen from the oxygen and to light up the mixture with traditional jet fuel. If you can do that then you move onto the next step.

      So this test had no need of anything more then 10 seconds of data.

    2. Re:A ridiculous concept from the start by Moofie · · Score: 2, Informative

      See the technology development of the gas turbine engine for many useful parallels.

      Scramjets are about the most absurdly complicated things you can imagine, from a fluid dynamics standpoint. Much more data is required to refine their operation. Such data comes from programs like this one.

      Now, it may be that NASA and your firm are not being as frugal as they should be, but this is useful and important research, if you think that high-speed air breathing flight is important.

      (Me, I say use ballistic rockets, but what do I know?)

      --
      Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
    3. Re:A ridiculous concept from the start by tengwar · · Score: 2, Informative
      Why doesn't the concorde still fly? It burns WAY too much fuel to be profitable.

      There's a Concorde flight twice daily over my house. They stop flying in October, but that's because of the cost of upcoming refits and because Airbus will not maintain them in the future. They appear to be highly profitable at the moment.

      Fuel costs just aren't an issue: do the maths. An average load for a transatlantic flight is probaly about 100 passengers, paying about £5000 each for a return journey, i.e £0.25M revenue for one journey. Fuel capacity is 96 tonnes, which would cost about £9000 to fill.

    4. Re:A ridiculous concept from the start by Idarubicin · · Score: 4, Informative
      To appreciate the test you have to have a basic understanding of what the scramjet does.

      I agree completely. So why do you then tell us the following? You have been misled, my friend.

      A scramjet seperates the hydrogen and oxygen molecules in the atmosphere and uses the hydrogen molecules as fuel for the engine. In doing this you have an engine that can go significantly faster, an engine that uses up a fraction of the fuel load of traditional aircraft and an aircraft that expels significantly less harmful waste in the atmosphere then a traditional jet engine.

      Quick primer on scramjets, from the top:

      In a typical jet engine (see here, for example) air enters through an intake at the front, and passes through several fan stages to compress (and heat) the incoming air. Squirt fuel into this hot air, and the rapid combustion generates exhaust at high temperature and pressure. This high pressure exhaust propels the jet (and drives a turbine which turns the fans in the compressor).

      The downside of this design is that it is mechanically complex--those compression stages have large, finely-machined, rapidly-moving parts which are subject to wear, tear, and accidental failure; they also add a significant amount of weight to the engine.

      Enter the ramjet. (See also cutaway figure.) Instead of using fans to compress incoming air, a ramjet uses a specially shaped inlet. Air enters the jet inlet at high speed, and then is forced through a narrow aperture. The result is compression without fans. Unfortunately, the ramjet will only work when the jet is travelling at significant speed--there isn't going to be any air coming into the engine if the aircraft isn't moving.

      A scramjet is a supersonic combustion ramjet. In a plain vanilla ramjet, the incoming air is slowed while it is compressed to the point where it is travelling slower than sound. Combustion takes place in air that is still moving quite quickly, but not supersonically. Although easier to manage from an engineering standpoint, requiring subsonic combustion places an upper limit on the speed of a conventional ramjet.

      The scramjet functions in a similar manner--incoming air is compressed and heated through a properly shaped inlet, then fuel is injected, and the combustion products propel the jet. The defining difference is that combustion takes place in a supersonic airflow; in practice, this dictates certain changes to the basic ramjet design. Again, the scramjet requires significant airspeed before it can be started.

      Quite correctly, you note that the fuel for these beasts is often hydrogen, though in principle nearly any air-combustible liquid or gas could be used. The fuel must be supplied, however--a scramjet cannot extract hydrogen from ambient water vapour. The hydrogen scramjet is inherently no cleaner burning than any other air-breathing hydrogen engine. Given its high operating temperature, I would be quite surprised if it didn't generate significant nitrogen oxides in operation.

      --
      ~Idarubicin
  15. NASA killing any Shuttle competitor by SysKoll · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Captain Loser, you have to remember that NASA is a bureaucratic organization. The purpose of a bureaucratic organization is to extract money from the taxpayers to hire more bureaucrats.

    It's the reason why NASA deceived Congress and underestimated the cost and reliability of the Shuttle. Not a concious conspiracy, just your regular bureaucratic tendency.

    Nowadays, the Shuttle is keeping tens of thousands of plushy jobs at NASA. Many of them aren't paper pushers, there are really good engineers working on this program. However, the real top dogs are the bureaucrats. And they know that the Shuttle should be replaced by something that does not require an army to operate, but they'd be out of a job.

    Each time the crazy engineers rock the boat and create a potential cheaper competitor for the Shuttle, it magically gets killed. Look at the X-33. Look at the DC-X: This demonstrator was taking off and landing on its jet, vertically. It was perfectly working when it was given to NASA, and somehow, NASA killed it on its first NASA flight. And somehow, the budget to build a new DC-X was consumed by, why, the Shuttle of course. So this perfectly good project was dropped.

    See how it works? Tons of examples can be found in the history of the various X-projects that got mysteriously mismanaged and killed since the Shuttle program started.

    NASA outlived its utility and became the worst enemy of cheap space access.

    You want space access? You want to get to Mars before the Chinese? Keep the JPL and the researchers, get rid of the rest of NASA.

    -- SysKoll
    --

    --
    Mad science! Robots! Underwear! Cute girls! Full comic online! http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/

    1. Re:NASA killing any Shuttle competitor by Grishnakh · · Score: 4, Insightful

      There's no law keeping private companies from building spacecraft.

      But private companies aren't going to do that, because it takes too much money, and won't realize a profit within a year. There was a time when companies would make long-term investments in a program, knowing it'd be many years before they'd earn it back, but those days are long gone. Now, if you can't make a quick buck at it, there's no reason to do it.

    2. Re:NASA killing any Shuttle competitor by cubicledrone · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Now, if you can't make a quick buck at it, there's no reason to do it.


      Thus the abject fuckitude of just about everything worthwhile in society.

      Plus 5

      --
      Business isn't willing to pay for products, innovation and careers, so we get brands, mortgage commercials and layoffs.
    3. Re:NASA killing any Shuttle competitor by Centurion509 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Captain Loser, you have to remember that NASA is a bureaucratic organization. The purpose of a bureaucratic organization is to extract money from the taxpayers to hire more bureaucrats... And they know that the Shuttle should be replaced by something that does not require an army to operate, but they'd be out of a job.

      SysKoll, do you actually know any NASA bureaucrats? Well, my father is one of them. And ever since the Columbia accident he's been working 70-hour workweeks (with no overtime pay, I think). And every day he talks to me about all the discussions at work he's having about how to phase out the shuttle. And all of the other "bureaucrats" he works with are hard-working, honest folks who are neither conspirators nor thieves of taxpayer money.

      I'm sorry if this seems a little harsh, but I am really FED UP with people who bash NASA just to bash NASA.

      P.S. In response to your "Each time the crazy engineers rock the boat and create a potential cheaper competitor for the Shuttle, it magically gets killed" I would point out that none of NASA's X-vehicles were competitors for the shuttle. They were technology demonstrators. I agree that NASA mismanaged them, but if they had flown, we would be no closer to a shuttle replacement.

      P.P.S. An by the way, there is hope for the future of private space flight, which I think is our only hope for CATS. It's called the X-Prize (www.xprize.org); I think you would enjoy learning about it.

  16. Ugh! by LadyAshnod · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Wham, what a waste? I think the
    • Cheaper
    is one helluva factor for it! *shrugs*
  17. Mir by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Remember the Mir? What an amazing success for mankind. It just kept right on working. Even whenever there was anykind of problem that was repaired in space, the American media talked about how it was an aging station and about the "cash-strapped Russian space agency". What comes around goes around I guess. The cash-strapped American space agency now has no manned space flight capability. Russia is the only country on Earth with that ability. The shuttle fleet is too old and if they ever attempt to fly those again they can expect similar results as their last attempt.

  18. Re:Another Bloody Techincal Story by CrowScape · · Score: 2, Funny

    What about astrology, the most rediculious of the sciences!

    Astrology ain't a science bub, no more than palm reading. Next you'll be telling me John Edwards is a scientist.

    But knowitall engineers use trensastors with inferious sound quality just to save a few bucks

    And musicians will actually buy them! And a good hunk of the population will love to listen to them. There are three stations on XM radio pretty much devoted to sound coming from transitors. Moby's pretty big but where would he be without the transitor? Now, you may not like him but, as you said, you cannot apply objective reasoning to something that is intrinsicly subjective.

    It is a lot of work, but the upshot is improved grammer and spelling skills that are lacking in the technical.

    You deserve a +2 Funny for this remark in a post that has some of the worst spelling I have ever seen. I think you should demand your money back if you're being serious.

    --
    common sense: noun
    What those who are ignorant of the subject matter think; usually wrong.
  19. This is getting ridiculous. by fruity1983 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Something has to be done about NASA. They are clearly far too inadequate to do their job properly.

    They ignored their engineers in '86. Astronauts died.

    They cant convert units, expensive Mars rovers are lost.

    They didnt follow proper safety procedures this year, astronauts died.

    They lose prototype planes because they decide not to test added elements. They lose this, and that, and lose billions of dollars doing it.

    I dunno about all you other readers, but it seems to me that NASA needs some *serious* restructuring.

    This better, faster, cheaper thing has turned out to be broken, slow, and expensive. It's bad enough we lose prototype planes worth billions to their errors, let alone the 14 astronauts sacrificed in the name of saving costs to keep a complex bureaucracy well paid.

    Fuck NASA. We need something new.

    --
    I am a viral sig. Please copy me and help me spread. Thank you.
    1. Re:This is getting ridiculous. by Cyno · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Maybe the engineers could do their job better if they didn't have to worry about getting laid off, the wars our administration will be fighting for the next 4 years, Nasa's management breathing down their backs, trying to push the blame onto someone else, etc.

      All these problems link to capitalism. But nobody will admit it, will they?

      I will say it once again. Create the proper environment for people to work in and they will do a good job. That environment has nothing to do with money and a lot to do with the rhetoric and media they are submerged in as well as the corporate office structure. Nasa, I suspect, is extremely rigid. Perhaps a casual, relaxed work environment will help people think better about the critical issues that kill us every day.

  20. Not all is as it Seems by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Based upon my experience at Goddard, I will say that most of the people at NASA are honest, upstanding individuals intent on doing the best job they can.

    Unfortunately, I don't think the management culture they inhabit works the same way. Yes, there are honest people in management. Too often, though, they must fight against pressures forcing dishonesty and abuse.

    Some people are quitting the field because of dishonesty and abuse. Donna Shirley, the woman who led the team that designed and built the successful Mars rover of 1997, has quit, citing the "lack of honesty and openness" in the field.

    When I was at Goddard, some high level managers in my company were caught defrauding the government out of millions of dollars. As a part of being allowed to continue doing business with the government, the company signed an agreement that forced all employees to receive annual "ethics" training. The training was a joke, emphasizing things like not using government e-mail for personal use. Teaching employees how to recognize major corruption on the part of mid and high level executives? Why, we "worker bees" need not worry our pretty little heads about that sort of thing...

    Personally, I think the kind of dishonesty reported in these articles will persist until NASA embraces honesty, openness and democracy in its culture.

  21. Call on the Kiwis! by Gurezaemon · · Score: 2, Funny

    NASA should call on (and pay lots of money to) the inimitable Bruce Simpson.

  22. Knock it off people... its really angering.... by Simkin1 · · Score: 2, Informative

    First off... this is my own opinion only, and does not reflect the attitude or thoughts of my employer.... with that said:
    I'm not sure whether to be pleased that someone actually took the time to locate a report that's been out for almost three months, or irritated that they (space.com) are completely misleading the public as to the cause and who's to blame for the defect (or that somehow they're privy to information that's available to everyone) which resulted in NASA having to terminate the Launch and Research Vehicle (X43A). On top of that, it's rediculous to post it to a forum like this. Reality check folks... This is a proven technology (hypersonic ram/scramjet engines) which has a large application base, and WILL provide faster, cheaper and cleaner access to space. I appreciate (not really) the folks that seem to get off on putting down NASA's achievments, or summing the work NASA does up to the moon landing (...and depending on who you listen to apparently we made that up too... -- that's sarcasm in case you didn't pick up on it.) If anyone of you has a moment to actually read the MIB report... and more over has the intellectual capacity to understand it (Lord knows no one's displayed that capability here, or at space.com), then you should understand where blame should be placed. The main portion of NASA's work was with the X-43A VEHICLE, and the subcontractor ORBITAL was supposed to provide a delivery system which would get NASA's RESEARCH VEHICLE to the test range. For those of you who can't quite put it all together, ...come on... you can do it... put 1 and 1 together... NASA straps their research vehicle to the nose of Orbitals delivery system -- the launch vehicle... OH, is the light dawning yet?... what does the report indicate is the problem? was it the hypersonic vehicle that failed?? NO MORONS, it DOESN'T say that... the VEHICLE never got to the test range!! NASA never got to TEST the friggin vehicle in the first place.

    ...but like always... you never hear about NASA's THOUSANDS of achievements... I'm willing to bet that most of you can't name a single thing that NASA has contributed to the US technological community...why is that? maybe it's because those achievements never get air time. Achievements aren't juicy enough for the media... Media gets more attention when it focus's on NASA's failures... When was the last time you heard a news organization extolling the virtues of NASA?
    All this criticism of NASA as "incapable", or "no longer with it"... to you folks I say PISS OFF... you have no clue what you're talking about. The X-43 folks are anything but sloppy at the research they do; the managment is outstanding, and the technical expertise is the best in the world.
    To folks that think that NASA is just a big bureaucracy; you're absolutely right. They are, just like any other organization that does bleeding edge research and provides outstanding technical work to the US government. Any organization that does the kind of experimental research that NASA does (look around, there aren't any) has to have a legitimate infrastructure in place to handle the costs and managment structure that large experiments have. There is NO way around this, and anyone who thinks there is, is a fool.

    To those of you who doubt that the X-43A vehicle will fly... PAY ATTENTION TO WHAT HAPPENS IN THE NEWS IN OCTOBER!

  23. RTFM by stewwy · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Remind's me of the allegedly true story going the rounds BAE systems in the UK developed a new test rig for testing plane windsceens , a chicken was fired at high velocity at the screen by a giant compressed air gun An american company involved in high speed train developement asked if they could use the design, three weeks later a frantic Email arrived at BAE saying the chicken went through the screen, through the bulkhead and embedded itself in the rear wall of the carriage, what should they do to improve their windsceen, the guy at BAE sent a one line email to them 'DEFOST THE CHICKEN' I tend to think its true as something similar happened to me, I was involved in developing rat poisons, new novel chemicals/drugs are often sent off for evaluation as anti-cancer drugs or in this case to combat strokes (it was an anti-coagulent) the center replied that it was not effective as all the rats died at their standard testing dose DOH RTFM

    1. Re:RTFM by tengwar · · Score: 2, Informative

      It's a very old urban legend. As far as I can tell, the chickecn cannon was developed in the UK to test the De Havilland Comet.

  24. Yeah, but how much are you willing to pay? by WoTG · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Certainly I'd agree that Apollo was a better run and much more successful project, but didn't the moon race consume something in the neighbourhood of 10% of the US GDP at the time?

    To attempt to put that in perspective, if you think that the war on Iraq was/is expensive, try multiplying it by 10* to get an idea of how much Apollo cost.

    What could people really expect? Once the moon race was over, there really was no place for NASA spending to go but down. Less money = Less resource = Less cool stuff that you can pull off.

    * Being Canadian, I have excused myself from looking up completely accurate figures. My back of an envelope calculations actually give me closer to 1000 times more expensive (relative to GDP), but that seems rather high... Someone who knows better please feel free to correct me.

    1. Re:Yeah, but how much are you willing to pay? by karstux · · Score: 3, Informative

      Apollo wasn't as expensive as you might think. According to this NASA page, total funding for the Apollo program was less than 20 billion dollars (which would equal about 100 billion of today's dollars).

      In contrast to that, last year's US GDP was about USD 10 trillion. It's just a matter of will - the state's administration doesn't really have an interest in space exploration.

      --
      Don't whistle while you're pissing.
    2. Re:Yeah, but how much are you willing to pay? by SmilingBoy · · Score: 4, Informative
      You are way off.

      The total cost of the Apollo program was $19.4b.

      This is the total program cost starting from 1965 (or was it 1964?) to 1972. Let's assume that the year 1969 was the year with the highest spending, say one quarter of the total sum, ie $4.9b.

      The nominal GDP of the USA in the year 1969 was 3928.7b.

      Therefore, at its peak, Apollo consumed approximately 0.12% of the GDP of the US.

      I think you might be referring to the nuclear program during and after that World War II. That was expensive! (I've got no numbers though)

  25. Much of the problem stems from the complexity of t by fmaxwell · · Score: 3, Insightful

    As someone who has worked on satellite software development and testing, I can tell you that system complexity is one of the biggest enemies of the 'Faster, Better, Cheaper' philosophy. As the complexity of a spacecraft increases, so does the testing. If you put 10,000 telemetry points into the downlink, then you have to test all 10,000 of them in such a way as to assure that they are fully functional. The same holds true for mechanical complexity and system interaction. When a project is behind schedule and over budget, one of the first things looked at for chopping is the testing.

    This is not news to software engineers, but it seems to be something that the general public fails to grasp. NASA needs to revert to the slower, more reliable, more expensive philosophy that brought so much success throughout the sixties and seventies. We need to accept that space exploration is complex and expensive and attempts to shortcut will just result in horrible failures and even the loss of life. Diverting a little money from Bush's "War Against Imaginary Weapons" to NASA would be a good start.

  26. Re:Much of the problem stems from the complexity o by GileadGreene · · Score: 2, Insightful
    As someone who has worked on satellite software development and testing, I can tell you that system complexity is one of the biggest enemies of the 'Faster, Better, Cheaper' philosophy. As the complexity of a spacecraft increases, so does the testing.

    No doubt. Which is why successful FBC missions tend to deliberately work to reduce complexity. That's how they make them fast and cheap. It's a foolish project manager (i.e. one that really doesn't "get" FBC) that tries to implement the "Faster" and "Cheaper" parts of FBC on a mission that is as complex is a non-FBC mission.

    NASA needs to revert to the slower, more reliable, more expensive philosophy that brought so much success throughout the sixties and seventies. We need to accept that space exploration is complex and expensive and attempts to shortcut will just result in horrible failures and even the loss of life.

    The last thing NASA should do is revert to its old philosophy. That philosophy is appropriate for some missions, but disaster for most: it costs way too much, and provides poor return on investment. FBC, if done right, can provide a much better ROI. Space exploration does not have to be complex and expensive. Look at NEAR, SAMPEX, HETE, Clementine, Lunar Prospector, the AMSATs, Orsted, Freja, Orbcomm, Mars Pathfinder, Beagle, MightySat, RADCAL, or MACSAT. FBC can be done, and done right.

  27. Re:Much of the problem stems from the complexity o by fmaxwell · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The last thing NASA should do is revert to its old philosophy.

    That philosophy put man on the moon. What progress have we made since then? Do we have a lunar colony? Do we have a large, fully-manned space station complete with rotation providing artificial gravity? Have we sent men to Mars? All that FBC has done is provide us with uninspiring baby steps taken with unmanned probes. It's caused an entire generation of kids to decide that being an astronaut isn't nearly as cool as flying a fighter jet.

    That philosophy is appropriate for some missions, but disaster for most: it costs way too much, and provides poor return on investment.

    We don't need a good return on investment -- we need more investment. NASA's annual budget is less than we are spending every two months occupying Iraq. In the mid-60's, NASA received about 5% of the total federal budget. Now it gets less than 1/2%. We need a President like Kennedy again -- one who values space exploration more than oil exploitation.

  28. You said, Management Failure, I agree .... by OldHawk777 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Donald Rumsfeld (always) and NASA management will want you to believe that NASA employees are all to blame for failures. We always find out later that the Government civilian worker-bees and pack-mules did all the right things, but management and office (government) politics in the government workplaces did all the wrong things ... too include point the finger at the group that many like to use as an excuse, but they (civilian worker-bees and pack-mules) make no decisions and can only seek permission. Incompetent decisions that sometimes are made by unaccredited university degreed (diploma mill) managers, Bosses, and politicians are the typical today.
    Failures in business and government projects are due to piss poor performance by management and Bosses not the worker-bees and pack-mules employees. Ecology, business, and tax laws, pension and health benefits, ... don't cause bank/CU failures, business bankruptcies, criminal fraud and theft in business the majority of failures in our economy/business are due to piss poor performance by management and Bosses not the worker-bees and pack-mules employees.
    2001/09/11 NSA, CIA, and FBI failures were not because of the field agents. Two Shuttle disasters, Hubble Telescope, X-43A, ... failures are due to failures in leadership and delusional denial by management. Credit Unions (CU), Global Crossings, World Com, Enron, ... failures, and Delta and other companies CEOs and staff steeling (lack of a better word) from worker-bees and pack-mules pension funds, reductions in pay, benefits, and health insurance to fund the CEOs' and staffs' ever increasing pay and benefits increases, and then put CEOs' and staffs' retirements in protected trust.
    Politicians of the Capitalist Republic applaud CEOs' and staffs' performance in saving the economy by getting the worker-bees and pack-mules (US Citizens) to pay for the bad global economy. The President after 2001/09/11 called for all good US Citizens to spend our money and support the USA. The CEOs', staffs', and politicians (have a different agenda) are setting up more corporate and wealthy tax welfare programs for the oil and construction companies in Iraq and national parks, pharmaceutical companies in Africa, ....
    US Citizens will pay in the future (our children, grandchildren, ...), financial responsibility is a thing of the past, and social security is always secure, because the government can maintain benefits for the wealthy today, and increase the social security retirement age until the right number of US Citizens die and never collect any benefits (old folks don't have many dependents). US, EU, and UN Citizens are becoming the whores of the wealthy fucked now, beaten later, and screwed to death.

    OldHawk777

    Reality is a self-induced hallucination.

    Yea, I know, I did stray a little from topic, but I beg forgiveness from /. Readers and US Citizens. Try to get a politician, CEO, holy-man, or manager to admit they made a mistake, like in this X-43A case.

    --
    Unaccountable leaders are masters, and unrepresented people are slaves. How do US and EU fare?
  29. Re:Much of the problem stems from the complexity o by GileadGreene · · Score: 2, Interesting
    That philosophy put man on the moon.

    Actually, if you stop and think about you'll realize that the way NASA put men on the moon was very much in line with the FBC philosophy. Rather than investing a huge amount of money in something complex and "high-tech" like the X-20 DynaSoar and taking forever to develop the missions NASA operated on a fixed, very tight schedule (land and return before the decade is out), and opted for simple, rugged solutions. Sounds a lot like the mandated "3 years from 0 to launch" policy and deliberate selection of less complex solutions to me that APL used for NEAR and other FBC missions. Sure, the NASA lunar program to develop a lot of new technology, but the underlying philosophy very much FBC. FBC doesn't mean spending less money, and it doesn't mean doing a bad job. It means thinking about what you are doing, and trying to maximize the value for the money you are spending.

    We don't need a good return on investment -- we need more investment. NASA's annual budget is less than we are spending every two months occupying Iraq. In the mid-60's, NASA received about 5% of the total federal budget. Now it gets less than 1/2%. We need a President like Kennedy again -- one who values space exploration more than oil exploitation.

    Presidential politics have very little to do with it. While I agree that Kennedy was extremely inspiring, I think he was dealing with a very different environment than we face today. What we really need is for the federal government to get its nose out of space, and to back off on the various regulations that mke it hard for commercial interests to do anything in space. The American public (as a whole) apparently doesn't care about space. If they did, it would be a great campaign platform, and someone would use it as such. The "public" doesn't want to spend the money, they have no tolerance for failure, and all they are interested in is spectacular firsts. This attitude is not conducive to a healthy space program. When you add in the fact that NASA is now a bloated bureaucracy, riddled with incompetent engineers and managers, drowning in unwanted congressional pork, and essentially wedded by politics to a launch system that is clearly over-priced and broken, it's no surprise that our space program is a mess.

  30. The private sector just won't fund pure science by fmaxwell · · Score: 2, Interesting

    What we really need is for the federal government to get its nose out of space, and to back off on the various regulations that mke it hard for commercial interests to do anything in space.

    Businesses want profits and the profits just aren't there for pure science research in space. Universities won't be funding space exploration -- it's often tough for them to find enough money in the budget for facilities maintenance. Boeing is not going to land a man on Mars in the hopes that they will be able to turn a profit from the mission. Lockheed is not going to fund the launch of a next-generation space telescope with the expectation of making money from the venture.

    I just don't believe that it would further our knowledge, increase our enthusiasm, or make us proud to be Americans if some private firm launched Lance Bass (of 'N Sync), Dennis Tito, and other multi-millionaire space-tourist-wannabes into orbit.

    The private sector will continue to fund and launch communications satellites -- and will do little else. Nothing else having to do with space has been shown to have any real promise of generating a positive cash flow.

    The American public (as a whole) apparently doesn't care about space. If they did, it would be a great campaign platform, and someone would use it as such. The "public" doesn't want to spend the money, they have no tolerance for failure, and all they are interested in is spectacular firsts.

    Most of the public doesn't care about physical fitness either, but that does not mean that the The Presidents Council on Physical Fitness and Sports should be eliminated. Sometimes it's important for leaders to lead, to set goals, and to energize the public to achieve those goals. That's what Kennedy did and that's what we need now. There is more to being a leader than creating budgets and priorities based on opinion polls and focus groups. A President's job is to look out for the good of the country, not pander to trailer park inbreds who think that astrology and astronomy are the same thing.

  31. X-43 Test Failure by De_Gopher · · Score: 2, Informative

    I haven't seen that particular report, but just to clarify what I know, the failure wasn't in the X-43 hypersonic vehicle but in the Pegasus launch booster, built by Orbital Sciences. Apparently the Pegasus was built to be launched at 40,000 feet, however in the first test it was launched at 20,000 feet. The increased air density and aerodynamic loading at this altitude caused a structural failure in a stabilising fin on the booster, not the X-43 craft itself, which remains unproven.