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Psychotic Lab Mice
meltoast writes "We send lab mice through a maze to see their reactions and then take that information and apply it to our knowledge of the human psyche. Well, what if those mice are completely out of their minds? Discover recently ran an article showing that mice kept in a standard laboratory environment may be crazy. 'In one sequence, a mouse climbs the stainless-steel walls of its cage, hangs from the ceiling by its forelegs while gnawing on the bars, then drops to the floor, only to repeat the process endlessly. On the other side of the cage, a second mouse performs backflips, one per second, for up to 30 minutes at a time.'"
... Go crazy?
Don't mind if I do!!
Credits to D.Adams
It wouldn't surprise me if the mice are insane from lack of stimulation. People get the same way when they're cooped up and take up all sorts of repetitive psychotic behaviors. It's a self-protection method for the brain I believe, keeping itself occupied in some endless task rather than concentrating on its continuously uninteresting environment and going crazy.
I guess that would mean the mice are showing (possibly) insane behavior because the behavior is a a symptom of a deteriorating mind in a last-ditch effort to save itself.
Stop the Slashdot Effect! Don't read the articles!
On the other side of the cage, a second mouse performs backflips, one per second, for up to 30 minutes at a time.
In my back yard my sister performs flips on a trampoline for up to 60 minutes at a time. My brother jumps into a body of water, only to get out and do it again for up to 45 minutes at a time.
My point is, unless you want to get inside of their head, or ask them why they are doing what they are doing, we can't say it's abnormal behavior. To an "alien in space" (who knows nothing of human "culture") someone jumping on a trampoline, or someone jumping into a pool over and over again may seem pointless and that we are out of our minds. Just a thought. I'm sure the mice are just keeping themselves busy.
This behavior bears a disturbing resemblance to my former cubefarm cellmates.
My
Limekiller
How some stories can make past their rejection process....but anyways...
When he reviewed the videotape, Würbel saw something reminiscent of home movies made at a psychiatric hospital. In the dark, the mice performed the same useless tasks repeatedly, with such a compulsive persistence that Würbel couldn't help but think something had gone awry in their brains. In one sequence, a mouse climbs the stainless-steel walls of its cage, hangs from the ceiling by its forelegs while gnawing on the bars, then drops to the floor, only to repeat the process endlessly.
Even a kid can tell you that since this was done in the dark and the mouse didn't know that it was "stainless steel" bar, it was probably trying to escape...
My point is, unless you want to get inside of their head, or ask them why they are doing what they are doing, we can't say it's abnormal behavior. To an "alien in space" (who knows nothing of human "culture") someone jumping on a trampoline, or someone jumping into a pool over and over again may seem pointless and that we are out of our minds. Just a thought. I'm sure the mice are just keeping themselves busy.
Don't human psychiatric workers keep track of how many times their inmates masturbate as a measure of frustration and stress? And don't soldiers who are exposed to heavy enemy fire on a daily basis usually succumb to self-manipulation 10+ times a day?
So are these mice jerking themselves silly or what? Just doing flips over and over isn't a sure sign of going nutso. Maybe they're just staying in shape! But if these cameras are capturing these mice reaching down between their legs a lot (or maybe rubbing their groins against every object in their cage), then I think we have a rock-solid case!
GMD
watch this
The mice have gone crazy? Oh rats!
Ron Paul 2012
How some stories can make past their rejection process....but anyways...
The decisions made by our esteemed editors are not for the likes of you to judge, Boy!
On the other side of the cage, a second mouse performs backflips, one per second, for up to 30 minutes at a time.
Nah, it was just training for the Olympics...
Hmmm. It's scary how many of these behaviors also apply to slashdot trolls:
A) These activities consume up to half of the creatures' waking hours, every single day.
I'm sure they spend about half their time in front of the computer either reading, posting, or thinking of new offensive, off-topic things to say on slashdot.
B) The affected animals also exhibit other deficiencies and obsessive behaviors.
You mean like hitting "refresh" on the slashdot home page every 1-2 minutes so they can get first post?
C) The entire lifestyle of these creatures is wildly altered by the addition of something as simple as a cardboard tube to their cages.
The entire day of these creatures is wildly altered by something as simple as a fellow slashdotter replying to their message, not realizing it wasn't serious.
GMD
watch this
I think so, Brain, but who'd want to watch Snow White and the Seven Samurai?
I had a hampster for about two years (it died) and it would spend its entire day either on the wheel or gnawing at the cage trying to get out. It's not psychosis, it's just animals trying to escape from their cages. What he described the mouse doing - hanging from the cage, gnawing, dropping, and doing it all over again - is exactly what my hampster would do in her vain attempt to climb out the hole in the top of our cage. They're almost like velociraptors, testing all the weaknesses in the cage, looking for a way out... except my hampster tested the same weakness over and over again. She wasn't that smart, I don't think.
They're Pinky and The Brain
Yes, Pinky and The Brain
One is a genius
The other's insane.
They're laboratory mice
Their genes have been spliced
They're dinky
They're Pinky and The Brain, Brain, Brain, Brain
Brain, Brain, Brain, Brain
Brain.
Before each night is done
Their plan will be unfurled
By the dawning of the sun
They'll take over the world.
They're Pinky and The Brain
Yes, Pinky and The Brain
Their twilight campaign
Is easy to explain.
To prove their mousey worth
They'll overthrow the Earth
They're dinky
They're Pinky and The Brain, Brain, Brain, Brain
Brain, Brain, Brain, Brain
Narf!
Its not uncommon for mice to wheel-- its akin to a kid riding a block. They get rid of excess energy and its fun for them.
ITs also not uncommon for mice to climb cages and knaw on the bars-- they don't know they aren't wood, and this is also fun behaviour.
But Backflips--or in other cases - random jumps are a sign of serious stress. As I understand it, in these laboratory situations they keep dozens of mice in a tiny area-- and mice are a socially sensitive animal. That is to say, they react to overcrowding, have stress, etc.
I think these mice are being abused, and the people doing it should go to hell. Fucking assholes. You're going to experiment on mice, its your responsibility to treat them decently.
Mice are like any common pet-- they react to pain, can be scared, can be stressed and need some private space.
Yeah, and you guys panned the ipod too: http://apple.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/10/23
Hanging from the top of the cage - you mean, like a pull-up?
Turning backflips...
"Now this one's a strange case. She claim a machine from the future, called a Terminator, came back to kill her."
Hiya Doc. How's the knee.
www.eFax.com are spammers
Gnawing on the top of the cage is a lot more fun than gnawing on the sides. Mice have to gnaw on something hard to cut their teeth - otherwise they get too big - rodent teeth grow continuously. As for backflips, well, if you could do backflips all afternoon, and you had nothing better to do, would you or would you not do backflips?
These mice aren't crazy. They just need some entertainment!
There was a point in the article when it occured to me that the phrase, "Research causes cancer in laboratory rats." was not a joke.
Is to handle each mouse weekly so that handling during experiments doesn't stress them out. I've been in rooms of hundreds of mice caged 3 to a feederbox and sorted by age and sex. The behaviors mentioned are few and far between unless they're beeing inbred or are knock outs that are more prone to psychosis.
I've hit Karma 50 and gotten a Score:5, Troll... I win!
'boo the space hamster' wasn't nuts. only his (her?) owner was!
class he-man extends man!
let the mice go
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
It seems the sense of freedom is important for all animals alike. Humans and mice. I'd react quite strongly to being locked into a room for a long time. Sure I'd try to escape. Sure It'd turn into an "escape ritual" if it'd be hopeless. Sure I'd be digging the tunnel, even though I "knew" It'd never work.
Prison is far better. People can have hobbies and visitors etc etc.
Sure the mice are acting crazy. But does that mean they'd have a permanent mental flaw? I don't think so. I believe the craziness arises from the situation, and will go away if these mice would be let free, roaming in the forests.
I once had three gerbils. Sure they'd be trying to escape whenever they had the chance, but that seemed as a sport. I always kept some cardboard tube, boxes, carrots, branches and whatever there to keep them busy. Changed the "furnishings" every now and then. And let the gerbils run free in one room quite often. Actually even built mazes for them from LEGOs =). They seemed healthy and sound. I miss them.
Animals should be treated properly to get any sane information about their behavior. And, they should be living in their natural environment (which, when different from that of humans, will make the info less useful). I think lab mice or lab-anything is not the way psychology will get good results. It's simply cruel.
and I bet this applies to rats as well (which are, biological, just very big mice). I have some pet rats and a big cage, but normally they just run around in my living room... and they really love to run around.
When I have them in their cage for more than, say, three days they grab their bars like some prisoners and stare at me with very sad eyes :-) After some days they can really get depressed.
So now normally mice and rat cages in laboratories are way smaller than mine is (I know since a friend of mine works in a laboratory with rats). And they are not allowed to run around. When my rats get depressed after a few days, then I have no doubt most mice/rats get crazy after some months.
Imagine having nothing more than your living room to walk around, your whole life... oh wait, we geeks know that very well ;-)
This kind of thing is happening all the time and increasingly so around the world.
A few years ago a lab in the UK admitted that most of it's results were flawed because of some permanent contamination within it's main testing machine, and they had been for several years.
I also remember a case where cells grown in culture and used around the world were discovered to be the wrong kind (liver instead of lung?) after the research had been going on for 10 years or so, wasting billions in money and years of work.
It's unherently unsound doing research on a captive, interbread population. You wouldn't trust it in humans - so why is it OK in animals and cultures?
I would think it would be possible to build a plastic maze with slowly shifting walls. Built into the maze would be sensors that shift the walls of the maze when there are no mice in that area. Then you drop all your mice in different areas and there you go, endless halways to run through. The mice don't ever even have to cross paths, so it's just like a cage, but it is never the same twice so there is always something to do. Sometimes mice would be herded into a "play room", sometimes to a "food room", etc. No more crazymice. It would also be neat to watch in action.
that would run really fast, in a really tight circle (like a dog chasing it's tail) for several minutes at a time. Most of the time, it was in the same direction (ie. clockwise, etc.) but sometimes they'd switch directions. Then I fed them to my reptiles. The end.
On the other side of the cage, a second mouse performs backflips, one per second, for up to 30 minutes at a time.
Did anyone else think of making a clock with this
Only me? Okay then...
The mice are just bored.
If you want to give them something to do, just put a housecat in there with them.
QED
There are some odd things afoot now, in the Villa Straylight.
How some people can miss the point of an article so wildly... but anyway...
since this was done in the dark and the mouse didn't know that it was "stainless steel" bar, it was probably trying to escape...
They continued to do this activity for hour upon hour, day upon day, week upon week. While you might have a point for that one stereotypic behaviour trait, the same observation doesn't work for mouse back-flipping or running in circles.
The authors are not stupid, they are scientists, and they have considered whether or not that was escape activity and written about it in the article. Please try reading the whole thing before hitting 'post'.
J.
You're only jealous cos the little penguins are talking to me.
It is certainly important to gain more insight into this issue, but it is a very complicated one. The vast majority of researchers are fairly limited in funding, and the costs of maintaining colonies of mice is already very expensive (for example, at my institution caring for about 300-500 mice is around $4000-$5000 per month). While there is probably much validity to Wurbel's argument, it unfortunately becomes a question of cost -- enriched housing conditions would probably be out of the limits of most researchers budgets. Scientists should probably settle on a happy medium - those doing research into behavior should definitely consider these issues; however, they may be less essential for researchers trying to understand the functions of specific genes known to be involved in processes other than neural ones, because the cost would simply be too high.
...all day causes repetitive behaviour.
/. The article is too long. /. The article is too long. /. The article is too long. /. The article is too long.
...
Oooh! New story on
Oooh! New story on
Oooh! New story on
Oooh! New story on
How are you going to keep them down on the farm once they've seen Karl Hungus?
I think WB must have done a similar study before creating Pinky & The Brain. Gee Brain, what do you want to do tonight? The same thing we do every night Pinky... Backflips and chew on the bars!!
www.facebook.com/DareDefendOurRights
www.fairtax.org
This behavor is also seen in zoo animals, but instead they pace around their surroundings.
I know I sure saw some behavior that could be characterized as psychotic. There was definite pacing in small circles. Running around and shouting happened frequently. Repetitive behaviors such as pipetting samples into 96 well plates were not unusual.
Now I work at another research institute and while some of the behaviors seen at NIH are common here, it is much more sane. (well, not normal, but better than NIH, fer sure).
If you're interested in lab animal care, there are a large number of sites that detail it to death. The government is a good place to start, of course.
This is one of the best articles I've read in a long time, and I'm sure I'll have an intelligent comment later. But for now, here's this summary:
mouse
mice mice mice mice mice
mouse
mice mice mice mice mice
mouse
mice mice mice mice mice
mouse
mice mice mice mice mice
mouse
mice mice mice mice mice
mouse
mice mice mice mice mice
mouse
mice mice mice mice mice
mouse
And at the bottom:
© Copyright 2003 The Walt Disney Company
Stressed? Me? Of course not. Stress is what a rubber band feels before it breaks, silly.
"Don't know the date
Don't know the time
The lab rats are insane
And I fear that I'll be next..."
-The Changelings "Parallax"
...which is why there is a cultural divide between two approaches to the study of animal behavior.
The "American psychological tradition," exemplified by Watson, Lashley, B. F. Skinner, etc. emphasizes the study of animals which are almost domesticated for lab use, and bred for genetic uniformity. The studies are done under carefully "controlled" laboratory conditions which are highly unnatural for the animal. The positive aspect of this approach is that it fits well with the scientific method, and the studies are relatively easy to interpret and repeat. A lot of the studies tend to be directed at intelligence and problem-solving.
Unfortunately, the behavior of animals in captivity IS just plain weird. I'd never seen it described as "psychotic" before, but there is a certain Heisenberg-like effect: the effort to put animals in situations where their behavior can be studied with full scientific rigor causes their behavior to change.
The "ethological tradition," exemplified by Konrad Lorenz, Niko Tinbergen, Donald Griffin, etc. emphasizes the behavior of natural populations of animals in natural or naturalistic settings. It is a biologist's approach rather than a psychologist's, and emphasizes evolutionary relationships. Social aspects are perhaps studied more than problem-solving.
Ethology may be a little softer and less rigorous. In the last decade, the phrase "cognitive ethology" has come into vogue and you will find cognitive ethologists using the word "consciousness" out loud and unafraid.
Obviously my personal sympathies are with the ethologists, but both traditions have yielded valuable scientific results.
"How to Do Nothing," kids activities, back in print!
You noted: Then, what would you do if we added Natalie Portman to your island?? (hot grits included) Yea, that's what I thought.
Oddly enough, that's just what the dissenter quoted in the article said:
"There are differences in behavior between mice raised in standard versus enriched housing, but which are 'better' or 'normal' cannot be straightforwardly answered. Mus musculus, the house mouse, has been raised in 'barren' laboratory cages for hundreds of generations, where most breed quite well, and it should at least be considered that this caging condition is, in some sense, their natural habitat."
Following that line of reasoning, the "natural habitat" for the average Slashdotter would be just as you suggested: a 10x10 meter island with a coconut tree, hot grits, and Natalie Portman.
So, where do we sign up?
Stressed? Me? Of course not. Stress is what a rubber band feels before it breaks, silly.
is that they will become smart and read the "lift latch to open" sign on their cages. Then there will be a little paw sticking out of a cage and opening it. Next thing you know, you'll have a race of intelligent rats and mice living in your rose bush stealing electricity from your house, causing all kinds of trouble for you and your cat Dragon. It's all prophesized here.
They hope we think their crazy so we won't kill them with some other medical experiment.
In another recent experiment that has been going on for decades, companys have taken human beings and placed them in small boxes which surround and cramp them on three sides, while leaving one side and the top open for observation.
No final results have been released, but it seems that they only surf the internet, make personal phone calls and perform friviolus actions of e-mails.
Making the boxes smaller seem to have no effect on the overall productivity of the cubical dwelling humans.
Stressed mice make less rigorous models for all kinds of research. Far from an animal rights issue, this is a very serious problem when they are being used as human models. I value human lives much more than mouse lives, but it should be self-evident, at least in this case, that less stressful housing for lab mice might improve the quality (and length!) of human lives farther down the road.
Please remember to put some flowers on Algernons grave.
It is easier to build strong children than to repair broken men. -Frederick Douglass
As a former member of the Slashdot troll community I'd like to make some clarifications and comments here.
I'm sure they spend about half their time in front of the computer either reading, posting, or thinking of new offensive, off-topic things to say on slashdot.
I wouldn't say the number is that high. I would venture that most trolls only recycle content from other trolls. This eliminates the time dedicated to this phase significantly. Consider the sources.
You mean like hitting "refresh" on the slashdot home page every 1-2 minutes so they can get first post?
That may be so, but there are frequently breaks between these 1-2 minute refreshes to pee, get something to drink, and maybe even do some work.
The entire day of these creatures is wildly altered by something as simple as a fellow slashdotter replying to their message, not realizing it wasn't serious.
Mod-bombing a troll also has a similar effect on the troll's psychology. The event of a mod-bombing causes a serious chemical imbalance in the troll which prompts it to spew even more trolls across the message boards.
Join Tor today!
Rodents will gnaw on cage bars, etc, in order to keep their teeth filed down. If not, they can grow too long, or get ingrown I believe, which can be painful and sometimes fatal if not treated. For rodents that are in a cage without bars (aquarium glass, or whatever) I recommend making sure they have a block to chew on. Per stores tend to carry them
Oh, and as a side-note... falling of the top was probably just the result of a thing called gravity. Even an agile rodent hanging off their would get heady/tired after awhile I would think?