Digitized Gutenberg Bible Available

regardless of religion.... by sweeney37 · 2003-07-23 16:32 · Score: 4, Insightful

wow, who would of thought the ability to see this work of art is as rare today as when it was first printed.

it's a very breathtaking and wonderful object to view.

Mike

Christianity and the Gutenberg Bible by Dancin_Santa · 2003-07-23 16:40 · Score: 2, Insightful

The Gutenberg Bible is definitely a work of art and a historical treasure, but as a study Bible it falls quite short.

To begin with it's all in Latin. Seeing as how Latin is not quite the popular language as it used to be, it is doubtful that a student would be understanding the nuances and meanings of the GB.

Also, it is simply not available to the general public. While this digitization of it goes a long way to providing easier access to the book, it remains largely inaccessible to those who live in foreign countries without easy access to Internet (those who would probably best be served by having Bible access).

Finally, the Gutenberg Bible does not have an easily accessible concordance. There is a lot of cross referencing that needs to be done to truly understand the teachings of the Bible and the fact that Gutenberg Bible owners won't let you touch the things, much less write in the margins, means that you are pretty much hamstrung as far as study goes.

If you are truly serious about studying the Bible as a living book, and not as a museum piece, then pick up a New King James or NIV version. These are easily readable and accurately reflect centuries of scholarship.

Re:Christianity and the Gutenberg Bible by kongjie · 2003-07-23 16:53 · Score: 5, Insightful

Where did someone suggest that the digitized images were meant as a "study bible"? This is a museum piece, that's the whole point, but it's a museum piece with much greater access now.
Even the average Latin student is not going to be able to read those digitized images or even the actual pages, given the typography.
Cross-referencing does not have to be done in the margins of a book. Do you know how many in-depth studies of texts are done in rare book rooms? Without drawing on the books?
If nothing else, making the GB more available will teach the average huckleberry that the bible wasn't written in english, lol.
Re:Christianity and the Gutenberg Bible by polished+look+2 · 2003-07-23 17:00 · Score: 3, Insightful

How could anyone say the above drivel is informative?

For your information, the Guttenberg Bible is a masterpiece that helped usher in not only the renaissance but also the reformation. The GB and the printing press also aided civilization tremendously by helping spread knowledge throughout the globe in a quick and timely manner.

Of course it is true that the Guttenberg Bible does not make a good study text; that goes without saying. For one thing, its in a museum and for another thing the photographs provided by the HRC are not detailed enough to make out the text clearly.
Re:Christianity and the Gutenberg Bible by Skyshadow · 2003-07-23 17:20 · Score: 4, Insightful

if you are truly serious you'll go for the source...
If you're truly serious, you'll find that the exact words are unimportant if you're able to understand their intent. That's what the NIV Bible is trying to accomplish (although I don't agree with their results, but that's another matter). This ain't easy, however -- it generally requires a pretty good understanding of the era in which the sources were written, the sorts of mythology from which certain portions are lifted or evolved from, etc.
It seems to me that adherants to western religions are stymied by their need for a literal instruction manual to their faith. It tends to lead to less of an appreciation of the nuances of their beliefs and bogs them down in the literal interpretations, many of which were originally intended to be metaphors to begin with.
It's odd that the progression in the Axial Age moved from what I'd consider the "best" take on religion -- Buddhism, which stresses the style of thinking and individual pursuit of enlightenment versus attachment to single interpretations -- to Christianity to Islam, which is the worst offender in terms of demanding literal interpretation (since the Koran is supposed to be the end-all-be-all Word directly from the Big Guy's mouth).
I suspect that literal, close-to-source literature is attractive to a lot of people because it's easy. "God created heaven and earth, here's what he wants you to do" is a lot easier than approaches to spirituality which demand that you figure a lot out on your own.

--
Every year during my review, I just pray the words "slashdot.org" aren't mentioned.
Re:Christianity and the Gutenberg Bible by bmajik · 2003-07-23 21:46 · Score: 3, Insightful

a truly serious what ?

the exact words are important. playing fast and loose with the word of god is a slippery slope that very quickly turns into "the parts of the bible that are convenient for my world view today are the parts that he _meant_, and the rest is just filler!"

imagine this conversation, at the gates:

God: so what was this business about you side stepping the "don't divorce" part ?

Person: well, i thought that was a bit outdated and mostly just a metaphor. what you meant was that i should be faithful while i was married

God: thanks for correcting me. Now, did you miss that part where i said "this is the word of the LORD"

Person: well sure, but you don't cover this...

God: and those other parts where i explicitly say under what circumstances divorce _is_ allowed ? i don't recall inspiring anybody to write "when she gets a bit older" as one of the conditions...

Person: well, i thought that was kind of ambiguous, and my sitation is kind of unique...

God: listen buddy, i made you, and i knew everything you'd ever do before there was anybody around to write a bible. did you think your "unique situtation" would catch me off guard ? that we'd have this chat, and i'd end up revising the bible to fix my oversight ?

Person: ...

People that ignore the bible may spend a lot of time in church, but probably aren't christians. Nobody can claim to know for sure that they have the correct interpretation of the word, but i think the balance of the difficulty is living as you are commanded, not in understanding the commands. as far as i know, if you read the bible and honestly misunderstand it, you won't be judged. nobody can have a perfect understanding of the word, but as long as you dont knowingly turn against what you have read and understood, you should be alright.

I think accessibility of the bible is virtue. Sure, if the basic message is easy to explain in a few sentences, and any common man can understand it, well, i could see how that would be uninteresting to a weekend theologian intellectual. But why whould it be any other way ? The word of god is for everyone, not just the people too smart and too proud to actually abide in it.

--
My opinions are my own, and do not necessarily represent those of my employer.
Re:Christianity and the Gutenberg Bible by nanojath · 2003-07-24 04:18 · Score: 2, Insightful

But what do you mean when you talk about "this is the word of the LORD"? The only full text in the bible that are presented as the literally transcribed word of God is the Torah scroll, the five books of Moses. The Old Testament as we find it is a selective and synthetic document derived from the Jewish Bible (which itself was not canonized until 100 AD, and so represents a parallel development of scripture with the Christian church), and there are differences in what is included in Christian versions (primarily the inclusion of the Apocrypha in the Roman Catholic text) to this very day.
The New Testament likewise represents four versions of the Gospels, selected from among the twenty-odd better known versions of the Gospel renditions that still exist from among the fifty to a hundred that appeared in the second and third centuries. The Christ and Gospel message presented in some of these Gospels is quite radically different from the canonical four gospels we're accostomed to.
The Epistles, meanwhile, are a selection of commentaries by various early Christians, and to argue that they were selected in exact accordance with some selection process suggested by some portion of the bible itself is stretching credulity. These decisions were contentious, political, and made over long periods.
Consider: (source: http://gbgm-umc.org/umw/bible/canon2.stm [my notes in brackets])
Some canons are smaller than the Protestant Bible; others are larger:
The smallest Bible is claimed by the Samaritans, who recognize only the first five books of the Bible (the Pentateuch). The largest Bible is that of the Ethiopian Orthodox church, which has 81 books
New Testament
Protestants, Roman Catholics, and Greek Orthodox Christians agree on the same 27 books for the composition of the New Testament; however some smaller groups of Christians do not. The Nestorian, or Syrian church, recognizes only 22 books, excluding 2 Peter, 2 and 3 John, Jude and Revelation. [Note - as a Lutheran I'll note that Martin Luther himself believed some of the books that are included in the canonical 27 should have been excluded, a fact that the Lutheran church generally glosses over rather than embrace some unorthodox cannon].
On the other hand, the Ethiopian Orthodox Church includes the same 27 books in its "narrower" canon but adds 8 books to its "broader" canon: "four sections of church order from a compilation called Sinodos, two sections from the Ethiopic Books of Covenant, Ethiopic Clement, and Ethiopic Didascalia."
Old Testament
The Jewish Bible and the Protestant Old Testament contain the same books but they are arranged in a different order. Additionally, books that Protestant Christians divide into two parts (Kings, Chronicles, Samuel, and Ezra-Nehemiah) are only one book in the Hebrew Bible.
In terms of the Old Testament, Roman Catholic, Greek Orthodox, Ethiopian Orthodox, and other Eastern Christians claim more "inside books".
The books of the "second canon" are considered "inside" by Roman Catholic, Greek Orthodox, and Ethiopic Christians; the latter group adds even more books beyond the deuterocanonicals. Protestants consider the same books "outside" however they give the Apocrypha high status, considering them valuable for instruction and spiritual edification. [Note they may have high status in academic circles but most Christians have never read them]
The Ethiopian Orthodox church's narrower Old Testament canon includes the books of the Hebrew Bible, all of the Apocrypha, and "Jubilees, 1 Enoch, and Joseph ben Gurion's (Josippon's) medieval history of the Jews and other nations."
(End of the quotation from the cited source) This is to say nothing of more recently discovered textual references such as the Dead Sea Scrolls and texts like the Book of Jasher which are quoted in the Canonical Bible but have been lost.
My p

--
It Is the Nature of Information to Transgress Artificial Boundaries

Write in the margins?! by Raul654 · 2003-07-23 16:55 · Score: 2, Insightful

Are you insane? This is probably one of the most valueable books in existance - there are only like 3 fully intact ones surviving.

--

To make laws that man cannot, and will not obey, serves to bring all law into contempt.
--E.C. Stanton

So much for a free press.. by molo · 2003-07-23 17:06 · Score: 5, Insightful

Further reproduction of any of the Gutenberg Bible images without the written consent of the Ransom Center is prohibited.

So much for a free press and research materials.. This is such a load of crap. The largest images publicly available are 835x600.

Inquiries regarding the availability of higher-resolution digital images for research or publication should be directed to the Center's staff.

All this from a public university. Your tax dollars at work!

-molo

--
Using your sig line to advertise for friends is lame.

Re:So much for a free press.. by tcsh(1) · 2003-07-23 19:46 · Score: 2, Insightful

Here's an email I just sent to the HRC:

As a resident of Texas, I was proud to read about the efforts of the Gutenberg Online Exhibition at the UT Humanities Research Center from a major technology news site. I congratulate your efforts on digitizing some of the most influential works of Western civilization.
However, I became sickened to see the notice "Further reproduction of any of the Gutenberg Bible images without the written consent of the Ransom Center is prohibited" on a work in the public domain.

A) The University of Texas is a public institution: The HRC's policy of prohibiting the reproduction of the Gutenberg images is contrary to the University of Texas Mission statement: "The university contributes to the advancement of society through research, creative activity, scholarly inquiry and the development of new knowledge. The university preserves and promotes the arts, benefits the state's economy, serves the citizens through public programs and provides other public service." Such a policy of prohibiting the digital distribution of these high quality images without reservation does nothing to contribute to the promotion of the arts, nor does is serve its citizens.

B) The distribution of the high-resolution digital images without any reservations costs virtually nothing, via the internet. The servers are already in place and the research and scanning has already been done. Both the original and the enlarged images are illegible on a 19" monitor. Why would the university bother putting up illegible material on the web?

C) The Biblical prophets wrote the Bible, Jerome translated it into Latin, Gutenberg printed it, and the UT HRC scanned it into digital form. And who among these is prohibiting reproduction??

I urge you to reconsider the policy of prohibiting reproduction of the Gutenberg images. This is an important work for the citizens of Texas, such as myself, and the citizens of the world. Please remove any legal and technological restriction for both the low-resolution and the high-resolution images of the Gutenberg Bible.

Whew... by retto · 2003-07-23 17:09 · Score: 1, Insightful

Good thing God isn't around anymore. I'm sure He'd be pissed about the copyright infringement.

An excellent excuse to learn latin by KalvinB · 2003-07-23 17:11 · Score: 3, Insightful

The NKJV and NIV are nice (I prefer the KJV for the fluidness of old english) but the Gutenberg has the historical value.

Ester in the OT was the first to take the holy scriptures and put them on paper so that everyone could read them. Nothing was hidden. Everyone knew what the priests did. Everyone knew the temple. Everyone knew the ceremonies. There were no secrets. Nothing ever was really hidden from the people. But the fact it was now openly in writting instead of just oral tradition was an enormously big deal.

Then the Catholic church came and decided to take the scriptures away from the people and to try to hide the ceremonies and teachings forcing people to just trust the words of the priests. And even today they try to hide the actions of their priests.

Luther came along and destroyed their control by doing what Ester had done long before. He gave the Bible back to the people so THEY could determine what was the truth and what wasn't without having to rely on a priest.

"Finally, the Gutenberg Bible does not have an easily accessible concordance. There is a lot of cross referencing that needs to be done to truly understand the teachings of the Bible"

The Bible, like all things takes time to understand. You can rely on others to teach you or teach yourself. Or both as many do. But the idea is that you can read along with the teacher to make sure they're not putting words in God's mouth.

The Gutenburg Bible isn't so much valuable as just a Bible. There are many many Bibles that all say the same thing. It's valuable because of what it represents. A man without study guides and without a concordance who made it his duty to learn what it taught and who made sure anyone and everyone would be able to have that same opportunity. It represents a religion that was no longer based on secrets. And even more secularly it represents the struggle to make information freely available to all.

They're very expensive but Gutenburg Bibles translated to English (with Luther's original notes I believe) have been available for years. So if you want one to study with they're there.

Ben

--
Work Safe Porn

Re:An excellent excuse to learn latin by The+Limp+Devil · 2003-07-24 00:20 · Score: 3, Insightful

OT nitpick: The witch hunts were an early modern phenomenon, and much more severe in Protestant than Catholic countries. Blaming the medieval church is incorrect.

Mod parent overrated please! by nacturation · 2003-07-23 17:15 · Score: 4, Insightful

...but as a study Bible it falls quite short.

Is this the beginning of your strawman argument? Nobody suggested it is a study bible. You threw that out there and you then proceed to back up your blatantly incorrect assertion.

Also, it is simply not available to the general public.

Again, it's not meant to be. Unless the public is clamoring for a latin text, what does it matter that it's only available to those with internet access? The images aren't large enough (even the enlarged ones) to really read comfortably even if you are fluent in latin.

Finally, the Gutenberg Bible does not have an easily accessible concordance.

You mean it has no concordance? Dude, this is of archeological signicance only. Nobody in their right mind would learn latin so that they could study this thing. I get the feeling by now that you're simply trolling, but seeing that you got a +5 Informative, I feel compelled to respond.

the fact that Gutenberg Bible owners won't let you touch the things, much less write in the margins, means that you are pretty much hamstrung as far as study goes.

Dude, I can write in the margins. My Jiffy marker shows up great on my monitor screen, and it's always there for me. And as for being hamstrung, does my lack of speaking Latin hamstring me too?

If you are truly serious about studying the Bible as a living book, and not as a museum piece, then pick up a New King James or NIV version.

On this point I have to agree. This is a museum piece and isn't great for studying. After all, looking up Psalm 137:9 in King James Version is much more eloquent:

"Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones."

Gives it a nice Shakespearean quality I'd say. But if you're not into that, the NIV is a lot clearer:

"Happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us- he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks."

Nothing quite says God Loves You like a little bit of infant seizing and rock dashing.

--
Want to improve your Karma? Instead of "Post Anonymously", try the "Post Humously" option.

Re:Important copyright notice by TwinEngine · 2003-07-23 17:32 · Score: 2, Insightful

Yup. I happened to listen to Lawrence Lessig's keynote address entitled Free Culture last night and the Gutenberg site reminded me of this excerpt:

Here's my Adobe eBook Reader, right. Some of you have seen this before, I'm sure. Here's Middle March; this is a work in the public domain. Here are the "permissions" (a lawyer had something to do with this) that you can do with this work in the public domain: You are allowed to copy ten selections into the clipboard every ten days--like, who got these numbers, I don't know--but you can print ten pages of this 4 million page book every ten days, and you are allowed to feel free to use the read-aloud button to listen to this book, right?

Now, Aristotle's Politics, another book in the public domain [that was] never really protected by copyright, but with this book, you can't copy any text into the selection, you can't print any pages, but feel free to listen to this book aloud. And to my great embarrassment, here's my latest book, right? No copying, no printing, and don't you dare use the technology to read my book aloud.

Similarly the Gutenberg site warns:

Further reproduction of any of the Gutenberg Bible images without the written consent of the Ransom Center is prohibited.

Isn't this contrary to the whole premise of the project? Paradoxical, even? Do you want to allow the world "virtual access" to this text or not?

Re:Is Gutenberg that nice? by TitanBL · 2003-07-23 17:53 · Score: 2, Insightful

Gutenberg helped bring civilization out of the Dark Ages. How could you hold back a civilization that had no books at all (outside of monistaries that is). Gutenburg's innovation spurred the Reformation and brought academic study back to the common man. Guttenburg represents a defiant turning point in history,

two things by sxpert · 2003-07-23 18:19 · Score: 3, Insightful

First, I'd like to know what the editors are doing, I had that story 8 hours before...
* 2003-07-23 22:57:45 Gutemberg's bible digitized (yro,books) (rejected)
of course, it got rejected without explanation...

The second thing is that, as I said in that submission, something isn't right... If you read the pages where you can see one of the bible's page, you can read the following legalese.
"Further reproduction of any of the Gutenberg Bible images without the written consent of the Ransom Center is prohibited.
Inquiries regarding the availability of higher-resolution digital images for research or publication should be directed to the Center's staff."

What does that mean, considering this book is old enough to belong to all of humanity, hence these images should be useable by any one for any purpose ?

Re:Much better Bible reference by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-23 19:53 · Score: 1, Insightful

Great, lets nit pick some wording variations, and take some out of context verses and call it a website.

Either you are willing to believe something, or you will reject it. No one can change someone else's mind for them.

Re:Looks like they missed a page. by sstory · 2003-07-24 00:33 · Score: 2, Insightful

And the last page:

About the Author:
Bob Patterson graduated summa cum laude from Babylon university, with a degree in accounting. He spent the first part of his professional life as a money changer at H.R. Ziggurat before being assaulted by a homeless religous zealot. Though the zealot was later killed by some Romans, Bob was depressed about how many followers these religious crazies can accumulate, and decided to spoof them in this clever send-up of what people will believe. While Bob doesn't expect anyone will believe these haphazard tales of a god who's infinitely good and yet a real jerk most of the time, slaughtering people willy-nilly, and punishing eternally those who don't believe in him while doing nothing to make them think otherwise, he does expect they'll serve as a useful object lesson. The fun starts right at the beginning, with a story of how man and the animals came to be, followed a page later with a different story describing their origin. Mr. Patterson, who resides in Sumaria, says if anything, he made the collection of short stories "a little too crazy" because it was so much fun writing he couldn't help himself.

Slashdot Mirror

Digitized Gutenberg Bible Available

19 of 432 comments (clear)