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iTunes: Don't Leave Home With Them
BadDoggie writes "Politech is reporting that your 'ownership' of music purchased from Apple's iTunes isn't what everyone considers ownership. According to the license, 'Apple may use technologies to verify' that you have not 'use[d] or attempt[d] to use the service from outside of the [United States]'. This includes Canada. Apple's 'technologies' delete the bought-and-paid-for files with no refund and no replacement when & if you leave the U.S." Update: 07/25 16:23 GMT by P : The post to Politech says the songs would "disappear," not be deleted; from the context, it seems they were merely unplayable, not deleted. Update: 07/25 21:34 GMT by M : Apple has contacted the guy, and is apparently making him happy. However, the question remains: Apple definitely doesn't want people buying new songs from outside the U.S., but do they intend to generally permit foreign users to reauthorize (in effect, retain access to) the songs they have already purchased? Apple's policy is very unclear on that point.
You know, I never knew that before. Thanks, Slashdot!
What about a country that's under US administration? does that count?
Apple's distribution rights are obviously limited to the US by the contracts they signed with the music companies. Or do you think Apple insisted on this themselves?
...there's a chance that this was something that was mandated by their contractual obligations with the labels providing the music.
Hopefully Apple will be able to secure international licenses and make this a moot point.
Chris -- http://www.bitter.net/
Well, here's a good reminder to read the license before paying good money for DRM'd "product".
Also, one could avoid this problem by burning the tracks to CD as back-up, which Apple can't really do much about no matter where you take them.
According to the article, you either have to volunteer the change of address info to Apple, or change the address on your credit card.
So, don't tell Apple you moved and tell your credit card company that you lost your card and need a new one.
You won't be able to purchase new music, but at least you won't lose your existing songs.
"use[d] or attempt[d] to use the service from outside of the [United States]'. This includes Canada."
Whew, for a second there I was thinking that we'd annexed Canada. Eh? I think that to be more clear, they should also specifically state that Mexico is outside the US. And, for those who are still in denial, they should state that New Jersey IS part of the United States.
Before condemning iTMS as being the ill-begotten spawn of the RIAA, Satan and Bill Gates, maybe the ex-pat should have tried calling Apple and talking to a real live person.
Apple is very upfront that the service isn't available outside the US (at least not yet) and they have apparently put in technical measures to enforce that. The key is if you can talk to a person on the phone or via email and get them to override a false positive. If you can, then this is a minor annoyance. If you can't, then Apple needs to rethink their system
Also, note that you can continue to play music you already purchased outside the US. It is only new purchases or reauthorizing music that you can't do outside the US
"Using the service" means trying to use the iTunes store. It doesn't mean listening to your music outside of the US. Right now, Apple only has the legal end worked out while you're in the US. It makes sense that they don't want a repeat of the iTunes "sharing" fiasco. What they are saying here is:
IF you attempt to use the service from outside of where they can legally sell you the music, then they MIGHT be able to delete the files you obtained illegally after you download them. WHEN at some later date your country is serviced by iTMS then you can now use the service from that country.
ITunes keeps your authorization offline, and it's a seperate file that you can backup and keep (so you'll be able to play your music even if apple's serves go down). So listening to your music abroad definitely doesn't count as infringement, since no service interaction is required.
That seems pretty reasonable to me. These "tools to detect" are probably somehow worked into iTunes, so it's not like Apple somehow is sneaking spyware into your system. Relax folks. iTMS isn't suddenly evil or anything. I really doubt that even authorizing your laptop while abroad is illegal.
Slashdot. It's Not For Common Sense
All this is saying is that you may not use the iTunes service outside the US. This is likely not of their own choice, but because of agreements with the record labels that restrict them to distribution in the US.
Furthermore, it says nothing like, "Apple's 'technologies' delete the bought-and-paid-for files with no refund and no replacement when & if you leave the U.S." You're welcome to listen to your music anywhere you please. Read in the proper context, "Apple may use technologies to verify such compliance," obviously means that if Apple detects you using the iTunes service from outside the US, they'll stop you. Is that so harsh?
Karma: Terrifying (mostly affected by atrocities you've committed)
According to this article: "Canada will be added to the Apple system when the CRIA completes its negotiations in the fall"
CRIA = Canadian Recording Industry Association.
Toronto-area transit rider? Rate your ride.
Oh please. It's just fine print to prevent export abuse. Remember, RIAA has lots of jurisdiction over ITMS and ultimately greenlighted it.
With that said, I've traveled to Ensenada, Baja, Mexico with my Powerbook which contained bunch of AAC tunes purchased from ITMS. Absolutely nothing happened, considering I've connected to the net from there under
This article is just nitpicking. Wait till we hear the full story from Apple and other respected news sources before jumping on the "Apple is just like Microsoft" bandwagon.
The author of the article claims he reinstalled his powerbook. And tried to redownload his purchased songs after changing his address permantly on both his credit card and iTunes to an outside US address.
Well that doesn't say apple will suddenly disable all your music files if you step out of US soil for say a week or a month.
Apple'sn policies clearly state that you may only purchase songs in the US.
Hardly the 'fine print'. It was the first item on the Terms of Use page.
Sorry, but this guy made his choice - tough for him if he didn't read the EULA before plonking down the cash.
The guy that complains about Apple's restrictice licenses not only USED TO WORK FOR MICROSOFT, he also developed MusicDirect.com, a direct competitor to the iTunes Store. (Read it yourself on his Home page.
As the french say: honi soit qui mal y pense. ("shamed be he who thinks evil of it")
um... iTunes allows you to burn your files to CD, all, even 'officially' downloaded ones. so jsut buy, burn and delete. if you want it back DRM free, rip it to MP3, you can do that through iTunes quite easily.
I want 2D games back.
If you're not happy with their terms, you don't have to purchase from their business. But you won't find friendlier terms anywhere for the quality copyright protected content they're legally providing online. The commercial success of iTunes is an incentive to the record companies to pay attention to online distribution. I'm sure Apple sees it as a step along a path, not the end goal. They're trying to get the ball moving at all, and you're upset that it's not speeding along at 100 mph.
He tried to reauthorize the songs after his billing address has changed to outside the US. If you have a US address, you're fine, no matter where your computer sits. How do I know? I studied in Ireland during the last school year, and I downloaded a number of songs from iTMS, using my US-based credit card with my US-based address.
The moral? The license agreement says you aren't to export the songs. This has nothing to do with DRM - it would still be a breach of contract (thus revoking your license to use the songs) to export the songs even if iTMS was giving you straight MP3s.
BUT you only have to pay for the one song you want, not the 10 crappy filler songs you don't give a shit about.
For 99% of the people, this license will fulfill 99% of their needs while allowing them to avoid 85% of the cost they would otherwise have to pay to listen to a song they like. The benefit here is that mp3 naturally supports the sale of singles in a way that the cd format doesn't.
A number of people seem to be commenting on this article as if the songs stop working as soon as a user leaves the US. However, in this case the guy is saying he had to completly reinstall his powerbook and wanted to retrieve his DRM certificate to allow him to use the songs he had purchased, and Apple's policies wouldn't allow this.
So it is a major flaw, but one I suspect that is by accident rather than design. Apple has promised the music industry that it won't allow downloads of songs from outside the US, which this policy enforces. What I suspect that haven't done is work out a way to allow users to keep their existing account but not allow future downloads now they know you aren't in the right geography. They don't do intrusive testing, only when the user in this case informed them they were outside the US (and the service is VERY clear when you have to sign up that you have to be in the US, it's not really small print).
So Apple haven't been as comprehensive in their use case mapping as they should have been, and obviously didn't cover the 0.01% case of customers who move from the US but need to access their existing tunes, loses their key and has no backup. They have however, proved to the copyright owner that their regon specific policies are being enforced, which is the only thing which gives us access to this service at present. If you disagree with them, fine buy CDs, break the law or campaign for change but there are many of us happy with 99% of these terms of service who simply wish the service would be expanded to more geographies and platforms.
From Apple's Help Menu on iTunes Music Store: This does not even include the "analog hole" people keep referring to of outputting your sound out to stereo and recording through tape, VCR, DAT, whatever.
In a article on the front page of the Wall Street Journal article (can't remember the date), Steve Jobs said that Apple's licensing scheme was there to be easy to use and keep honest people honest. More importantly, it was NOT meant to keep a dedicated "pirate" from copying the music. SteveJ basically said that such a software DRM was impossible - someone would always crack it.
Moral of the story, your MP3's and AAC files are imminently corruptible data on a disk. Treat them as such and back them up
The idea that Apple somehow remotely deleted his songs is utter bullshit. Read the article. He reinstalled his system, thus erasing at the very least Apple's authorization token. He attempted to re-authorize his computer using a Canadian credit card, which Apple does not permit and has been very open about not permitting. This is like moving to the UK, breaking your old R1 DVD player, buying a new one at the store down the block, and complaining that its PAL signal won't work with the rest of your legacy equipment.
You didn't read past the first paragraph. He says he had to do a re-install, and upon restoring his set-up, itunes asked him to reauthorise his music files, and was met with a refusal.
"When reading the "Terms of Service", it says that purchases are not available outside of the US and the "service" is not used outside of the US. I'm guessing that iTunes must phone home or something to do with its DRM. If he were to move back to the US, I would guess that he could play his songs again, provided that they were not deleted."
(How this got modded up to 5, Insightful I don't know...) He initially used the service in the US, to buy the music files he had. Upon trying to reauthorise the files after the reinstall (if you remember) from Canada, he was refused. No phoning home... he logged on and tried to reauthorise. Do you see? He couldn't play the songs because itunes insisted he reauthorise after the reinstall! (Is friday free crack for moderators day, or something?)
"As his letter ends with, maybe we should buy CDs, they are not that expensive when bought used, or download free music, or "share" mp3s off of someone you don't know."
Or maybe, online music services shouldn't have stupid rules, that shoot themselves in the foot, and screw their PAYING customers, if they want to make online music file purchasing an appealing alternative to Kazaa, et al.
(Patiently waits while moderated Offtopic.)
Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility. - Ambrose Bierce
First of all, read the damn article.
Most of you haven't even read the article and already condemning the ITMS. Like some have said, the guy deleted his songs, changed his address to a non US address, and tried to download the songs again!
Second, that whole "iTMS songs won't play outside the US" is BULLSHIT. I've been outside the US many times and my songs play on my powerbook just fine... nothing deleted... no errors.. even when i'm hooked up to the internet!
I thought slashdotters were smart people.. always skeptical about new news. I guess you guys just believe everything you see, just like every other lemming out there.
Actually, the files are not deleted by Apple and I saw nothing in the article or in Apple's license to indicate they would be. However, if the user deletes the files and/or deauthorizes his computer, reauthorizing it with a non-US credit card will not work.
In short, this is just yet another sensationalist story posted by michael who apparently cannot be bothered to even check the facts in the stories he's posting. He could have simply added a comment like "Despite what the submitter said, I found no evidence or information indicating that the files would actually be deleted by Apple."
Yes, I am supportive of "soft" DRM. Throw the media companies a bone at least once in a while. So long as I can burn it to a CD at least once, what's the difference? If I felt like it I'd make MP3s off of that and do whatever the hell I want with it just like I can with any other normal CD I buy in the store. That unprotected safety valve is what makes iTMS work.
Essentially, your post amounts to the classic Slashdot karma whore troll. "I'm sure I'll get moderated into oblivion..." Moderators: Please do so.
if you want to blame somebody blame david geffen, or cbs, or sony, or capitol. not apple.
2 1337 4 u!
Actually I've heard that foreign students choose Canada over the US because it's supposed to be the easiest and most useful dialect of English to learn. There is significantly less variation in accent throughout Canada than any other major English country (eg: Texas vs. the Bronx, Cornwall vs. Scotland) and Canadian English is supposedly easier to understand by people with other English accents and even easier to learn for non-English speakers. I have no idea if there's truth to any of this, but I've heard it more than once...
Dang, there goes my chance to moderate :(