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What Is The Real Cost of Spam?

securitas writes "The NY Times has a nice feature about the diverging estimates of the costs of spam (Google). The estimates vary widely from $10 billion to $87 billion per year for American workers, and even more for global costs. Critics say that research firms' estimates vastly overstate the actual cost of spam. Public institutions like Indiana University have to be sensitive to the First Amendment rights of the spammers. And at companies like Nortel Networks, security architect Chris Lewis says that the real economic burden is the 10 to 15 percent - 5,000 to 10,000 messages a day - of the spam that still gets through, which costs the company about $1 in lost productivity per message. The costs can be much higher if a top executive is upset or mad about spam. "If someone in senior management gets spammed," Mr. Lewis said, "it could take 20 or 30 hours of everyone's time, up and down the chain." A chart of the per user amount of spam and the time spent processing it, as well as the varying estimates of the per user cost of spam are included in the article."

82 of 316 comments (clear)

  1. My own thoughts by Phroggy · · Score: 5, Interesting
    --
    $x='S24;r)>63/* h@<5+oZ)32"5cz';$me='phroggy'x$];
    $x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;
    1. Re:My own thoughts by kaltkalt · · Score: 2, Insightful

      So let's say it takes five seconds to recognized and delete one message. That's not really significant, is it? But if you do the math, for someone who receives 100 per day, at minimum wage it works out to over $300 per year!

      Ok, but someone who is getting paid minimum wage isn't gonna be docked for those wasted 500 seconds each day. Frankly, they should be. Then people would start caring more about spam and we would get a blue-collar army to rise up and get some real anti-spam laws passed.

      Or, make it known to management (i.e. the ones who pay the people minimum wage) that spam is causing them to lose 500 seconds of productivity a day per worker, which means $300 in lost annual revenue for each worker they are employing. Maybe if all managers knew that, they'd be more inclined to throw money at the legislators to solve the spam problem. The only way to solve a problem in america is to throw money at it (it being those who can make laws to fix the problem). I know that sounds cynical, but if you think I'm wrong about that, please take your head out of your ass.

      --

      Stupid people make stupid things profitable.
  2. PHB Gets Spammed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny
    The costs can be much higher if a top executive is upset or mad about spam. "If someone in senior management gets spammed," Mr. Lewis said, "it could take 20 or 30 hours of everyone's time, up and down the chain."

    Well, yes, since the CEO needs to ask his assistant to ask a senior manager to ask the Spam Control Committee to ask a freshly-hired sysadmin to fucking hit his goddamn delete key. All that and more for just $50 million a year, plus golden parachute!

    1. Re:PHB Gets Spammed by larry+bagina · · Score: 2, Interesting
      There are plenty of upper management (or older generation) types that don't deal with email directly.

      E. Djiekstra, for example, had his secretary print out email, to which he would write out a reply in long hand, which would then be typed back in.

      Ted Turner stated in an interview a few months ago that his secretary deals with all his email, and he never touches it.

      I know Lotus Notes allows you to allow others access to read/send email on your behalf. High level management have personal attendants to do shit like delete spam.

      --
      Do you even lift?

      These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.

    2. Re:PHB Gets Spammed by mwolff · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Some older people do not understand spam. I found my boss replying with individual, very professional messages to the spammers. His assistant, who is not as old as my boss, caught on and then went to me for help about it. She knew what spam was, but did not know how to deal with it.

    3. Re:PHB Gets Spammed by frostman · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Funny, in the early days of spam I did the same thing, even though I knew plenty about spam.

      If I could track down the responsible party I would send a very professional yet very nasty message.

      I knew it was pointless, but I felt a little better afterward.

      *sigh* those were the days...

      --

      This Like That - fun with words!

  3. A dollar a message by perimorph · · Score: 5, Funny

    ...which costs the company about $1 in lost productivity per message.

    Where can I find a job where I get paid $1 every time I press the delete button? I'll fax in my resume' right away!

    1. Re:A dollar a message by Threni · · Score: 5, Funny

      "Where can I find a job where I get paid $1 every time I press the delete button? I'll fax in my resume' right away!"

      Well, in my dreams that'd be the job description for a vacancy at the Patent Office but I don't see that particular dream coming true any time soon.

    2. Re:A dollar a message by Arker · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You can't just hit the delete button. You have to figure out that it's spam first. This involves viewing the message, reading at least part of it. If you're talking about someone that costs the company $60/hr (doesn't mean he takes that home, when you include overhead/ss/unemployment/insurance etc. a lot of people cost more than that to employ) that's $1 per minute, and a 'clever' spam that slips past your filters can take a minute to conclusively identify and delete.

      Not to mention all the problems that are created when the filters catch the wrong mail...

      --
      =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
      Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
    3. Re:A dollar a message by stevejsmith · · Score: 2, Funny

      Are you JOKING ME!? Most spam can be recognized just by the subject line. If it takes you a minute to recognize a spam message, you should be shot and dragged down the streets in a burlap sack.

    4. Re:A dollar a message by BJH · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Average it out - as it said in the story, if senior management gets a bee in their bonnet about spam they received, you could have several guys spending an hour or two doing whatever it takes to placate them.

    5. Re:A dollar a message by wo1verin3 · · Score: 4, Funny

      >> It doesn't take me 60 seconds to determine
      >> that "v1agra no prescr1ption needed" is spam

      Maybe it doesn't take you, but it takes me about 120 to make sure that isn't MY viagra supplier.

    6. Re:A dollar a message by WheelDweller · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I take it you don't have much spam, where you are...sure, $1 per message sounds like a lot, but my guess would be $.50: think of the _interruption_ time it involves. These (lucky, few) people with jobs are getting paid $50 a day or more, and have to stop what they're doing 'cause the 'you have mail' flag comes up. [No, they don't have to stop, but burn someone for not responding to the boss's mail in a hurry, and you'll see that recipient watching that flag like a TV set] And every time it's spam, he merely deletes it, and goes back to what he was working on. It really _does_ add up.

      But as to spam coverage; I have sendmail check the RBLs before accepting mail, and that blocks in excess of 2,000 spams a day. Then spamassassin filters the rest, and I'm down to a mere several-hundred a day in the "Spam" folder. I'm not even a company. No one here is on AOL. People have no reason to think my penis is small, or my breast need enlargement, or that I'm in dire need of pharmaceuticals from Canada. I'm a guy, staying with his Mom, now that she's had a stroke.

      Say what you will about the delete key, spam is outta control. I'm personally surprised that someone hasn't blown up some spammer's house thus far.

      --
      --- For a good time mail uce@ftc.gov
    7. Re:A dollar a message by silentbozo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The spam that slips past my filters is easy to identify, mark, report, and add to my bayesian corpus. It's the spam that DOESN'T make it past my filters that I have to pull up, display, and review, about 200 messages PER DAY (or 400-500 messages per sitting, since I review the trapped messages every other day.) This is the stuff that costs me time, since now I'm hunting for any good mail that might have been filtered in a sea of spam.

      I can't just purge all the trapped mail without reviewing it, because I do all my business online. I've whitelisted everyone I do business with on a normal basis, but new customers, customer support, and eBay notices go to the same address that gets heavily filtered (because they're public.) Public, in this case, means that the addresses have gotten spam (although they're not posted to the web, for obvious reasons.) This includes addresses that I don't use, but have been dictionary attacked.

      The solution is obvious - I need to add more rules to be more selective about which messages to trap, and which messages to pass. However, that takes time... :(

    8. Re:A dollar a message by Spellbinder · · Score: 2, Funny

      yeah ... you can't just hit delete ...
      90% or more of my spam is identified just by reading the subject and the senders address
      i don't think someone payd $60/hr is working at a computer that has over 30 seconds to open a message =)))
      one look at the message disqualifes the other ~8% of the spam
      before i start reading a message i go over it just looking for the topic and who was writing this message
      if this takes someone over 30 seconds you should reconsider his wage (especially if it's over 60$/hr)

      --


      stop supporting microsoft with pirating their software!!!!!
    9. Re:A dollar a message by Jade+E.+2 · · Score: 4, Funny
      Where can I find a job where I get paid $1 every time I press the delete button? I'll fax in my resume' right away!

      That would be the job of the person receiving your resumes.

    10. Re:A dollar a message by dubl-u · · Score: 3, Informative

      think of the _interruption_ time it involves.

      According to an IBM study quoted in McConnell's Rapid Development, it takes the average programmer 15 minutes to recover fully from an interruption.

    11. Re:A dollar a message by laing · · Score: 2, Informative

      Well, it's not an easy thing to set up. There are links from the spamassassin.org web page to the many different ways to use it. One of them points to the spamassassin milter page: http://savannah.nongnu.org/projects/spamass-milt/

      Unfortunately there isn't much there in the way of installation instructions. I think the developers of SpamAssassin are planning to release a commercial version soon (which I would gladly buy to support them and their efforts.) Perhaps the commercial version will be easier to install.

      A brief summary of what needs to be done:
      Install SpamAssassin and (optionally) razor.
      Install the perl module Sendmail::Milter
      (You'll need a version of perl that supports threads like 5.6 or later. If you don't have one, install it first.)
      Add a few lines to your sendmail .mc file:
      INPUT_MAIL_FILTER(`myspamfilter', `S=local:/var/run/mperl.sock, F=T, T=S:1m;R:1m')dnl
      Use m4 to make a new sendmail.cf file.
      Create the proper configuration files for spamd and spamass-milter per the documentation.
      Restart sendmail and start the daemonized version of SpamAssasin (spamd).
      Start spamass-milter.

      Sit back and watch the spam bounce off your server.

  4. Is this real money? by eric434 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Or has this been calculated in the same way that they calculate money lost from 'piracy' and 'hacking'?

    I can certainly see how spam costs real money in terms of bandwidth and all, but I'm wondering whether they actually did some research or just guessed.

    --
    This .sig temporary until a better .sig can be constructed.
    1. Re:Is this real money? by frostman · · Score: 2, Informative
      Interesting question. I'd like to know too.

      Back when I used to get spam, I got about 100-150 a day. It took me about 10 or 15 minutes of actually going through the mailbox checking and hitting DEL to clean it out.

      The bummer was that if I got behind, it would seem like an enormous amount, and I'd put off going through my inbox at all. That, of course, was a bigger productivity loss.

      If we say someone takes half an hour a day to both clean out the spam and grumble about it, we might guestimate the annual productivity loss something like:
      $ 15 (Worker cost/ 1/2hr)
      x 225 (Work days/year)
      ------
      $ 3375 / year
      ...which sounds very high. On the other hand, my gut feeling is that the 1/2 hour isn't an overestimate for average workers (who only cost the company $30/hour total).

      If you just ask people how much time they spend dealing with spam you'll get wildly unreliable answers, depending on how they think their answer will be interpreted.

      In any case I'm convinced the productivity cost dwarfs the infrastructure cost. I just haven't (yet) seen any statistics I'd call definitive.
      --

      This Like That - fun with words!

  5. Spam by Luigi30 · · Score: 2, Funny

    I don't like wading through Spam... too gooey and greasy.

    --
    503 Sig Unavailable

    The Signature could not be accessed. Please try again later or contact the administrator
  6. 84 seconds per spam?! by mrand · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Either I'm a spam processing machine, or some of these estimates are WAY overstated. After running through two filters, I end up only seeing 20 TO 40 spam's a day, and it takes me all of 20 or 30 seconds to deal with them - for the WHOLE DAY. Do these people keep their delete key in their drawer or what?

    And the person quoted about the cost of setting up spam filters and following up on incorrect filtering seems to ignore the fact that the effort for this person to do this is spread across all the users... thousands of them (or tens or hundreds of thousands, in this case).

    Marc

    --
    -- PGP keyID: 0x4C95994D
    1. Re:84 seconds per spam?! by timeOday · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Yeah, those estimates are gross exaggerations.

      Here's a different kind of cost though. I have always been careful with my email addresses and managed to avoid most spam. But now it has affected me. Because of spam, my block of IPs (Comcast) has been blacklisted by quite a few mail servers. I can still send email if I go through Comcast servers, but I'd rather send it directly, and to me it's sad to see locks and fences thrown up (the "taming of the wild west" if you will), in opposition to the peer-to-peer model that makes the Internet great, necessitated by spam.

    2. Re:84 seconds per spam?! by IWannaBeAnAC · · Score: 2, Informative
      Either I'm a spam processing machine, or some of these estimates are WAY overstated. After running through two filters, I end up only seeing 20 TO 40 spam's a day, and it takes me all of 20 or 30 seconds to deal with them - for the WHOLE DAY. Do these people keep their delete key in their drawer or what?

      Fine, this is not much of a problem for someone who is at their computer a lot and can basically delete spam as they arrive. I get a similar amount of spam as you (maybe slightly less, but still at least 10 per day, consistently). But what happens if you go on holiday for a month? Suddenly that small handful of 'delete' presses becomes a huge mass of junk, from which it is really hard to find the important messages. And what if you were away for 6 months? The task of filtering out the junk would be practically impossible.

      For someone who doesn't work with computers, who maybe checks their email once a week, spam becomes a major chore.

      Compare with snail mail; I get practically no junk mail (I also have a 'no junk mail' sign on the letterbox, which I suspect is legally enforcable where I live). Sorting out the mail after a long holiday (yeah I wish!) is actually an interesting and not long task.

      The way it is now, it is impossible to use email for important communication (think bills, court documents, things you really _need_ to receive), simply because of spam. Filtering isn't the answer. Email was intended to be robust; either the message would get through or it would bounce. Spam filters make this no longer true, not by a long shot.

  7. spambayes by utexaspunk · · Score: 3, Insightful

    how do they figure $1/msg? It maybe only takes me 10 seconds to alt-tab over to outlook and see that it's spam, delete it, and alt-tab back. let's see... that amounts to $360/hr! I wish I were making that kind of money! If it weren't for all this spam...

    if they'd just get spambayes they wouldn't have this problem anymore. hardly any junk mail gets past spambayes...

    1. Re:spambayes by Threni · · Score: 2, Funny

      > that amounts to $360/hr

      Shush!! That's not what it costs!! That's just what you tell the lawyers it costs!

      Obviously it just takes under a second to decide to delete it and press the `delete` key, plus however long Outlook feels like taking, to actually delete it.

  8. Spam sucks, but... by Erick+the+Red · · Score: 2, Insightful

    for now,we have to live with it (or with what gets through our filters).

    "If someone in senior management gets spammed," Mr. Lewis said, "it could take 20 or 30 hours of everyone's time, up and down the chain."

    In other words, stop whining and hit delete.

    --

    DO NOT WRITE IN THIS SPACE

    ok
  9. The real issue is not now, but tomorrow by gorbachev · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The real issue about costs of spam is not what it costs today, but what it costs a year, two or 5 years from now, if it's not killed today.

    The volume of spam is increasing exponentially. It will reach a point when it will start choking up Email entirely.

    At that point it's too late.

    Proletariat of the world, unite to kill spammers. Remember to shoot knees first, so that they can't run away while you slowly torture them to death

    --
    In Soviet Russia, I ruled you
  10. This is an issue. by AntiOrganic · · Score: 5, Interesting
    This is a big issue for me. I work for a web hosting company, and we had two options when it came down to dealing with spam:

    Sift through hundreds, sometimes thousands of messages a day searching for legitimate technical support issues

    Only accept email from addresses belonging to customers on file.

    This has had a detrimental effect, and we often do get calls from customers saying their emails never got through and that they need to know which of their email addresses is on the account because they don't remember. This is inconvenient, and these measures may have led to the loss of a few customers for us. This isn't terrible, however, compared to spending hours a day sifting through spam, which would probably cost us more than the customers we lost.

    This is still unacceptable.

    1. Re:This is an issue. by Some+Bitch · · Score: 2, Insightful
      How did this obvious troll get modded up to 5? No business pays people to read email all day. There are dozens of good free and commercial spam filters.

      Guess again. The company I work for has a filter in place but NOTHING (exception: virus infected files) is discarded until a human being has checked it and either released or deleted. No matter how good a Bayesian filter may be it's still not good enough to guarantee it won't quarantine a £24 million bid proposal by mistake. What if the person sending the proposal at 1am then heaves a sigh of relief because it's gone and shuts down before the quarantine warning mail gets back to them? With an unmonitored system this would go unnoticed until they next read their mail!

      This is why we have someone monitoring the crap filter 24/7, it's not the only thing they are doing but every hour or so they'll go through the servers and release/delete the crap.

      And for those who say "It's the users problem if they don't phone to check delivery or request a receipt!", you obviously don't work front line support :/

  11. It's cost me a lot by geekd · · Score: 5, Funny

    Spam has cost me over $10,000, and my dick STILL isn't any bigger.

    1. Re:It's cost me a lot by geekd · · Score: 3, Funny

      Why is it if someone else in this thread posts a similar joke, it'll be modded redundant

      'Cause I was first. (in this post).

      and yet every time there is a spam story one of these jokes gets modded +5 funny?

      It's funny when people make fun of their dicks. People like dick jokes.

      Dicks are inherently funny. They look funny, they act funny, and they are fun to play with.

      Your dick is your helmet (or sweater, depending on your religion) wearing friend.

  12. Is spam even effective? by YllabianBitPipe · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I wonder about the effectivity of Spam because I just chuck it all. I can't remember a single time I clicked on a spam email. Nobody I know gets any spam that's worthwhile in any regard.

    I just read James Cramer's bio and he talks about how TheStreet.com did a bulk mailing that they paid $500,000 for it. End result? 5 subscribers. $100,000 per subscriber. That's a terrible conversion rate for junk mail. Now I know that was junk mail, not spam email, but I simply can't imagine the rates being all that much better for Spam.

    I'd say one way to fight spam is have a "do not spam" registry ... like what's being done with telemarketers.

    1. Re:Is spam even effective? by AnotherBlackHat · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Every case is going to be different, but response rates for junk mail are typically claimed in the 2-4 per thousand range,
      and spam is estimated at 1-3 per ten thousand.
      (A response is not a sale, but the response to sale ratios are fairly high - usually double digits.)

      A full color piece of junk mail costs about $1.
      A single spam costs less than $0.00001.
      That $500,000 mail campain would have cost less than $5 if done through email.

      That, in a nutshell, is the real problem with spam.
      It doesn't have to work well because it's so cheap.

      -- this is not a .sig

  13. That's an oversimplication. by raehl · · Score: 2, Interesting

    A good study must take into account more than the original purchase price. How much productivity is lost due to increased bathroom breaks? How much was the environment damaged by the flatulence of whatever animal (?) it was that the Spam was made from? How much does Spam consumption increase the burden on the healthcare system? If Spam is allowed to reach a corporate executive during lunch or dinner, one could easily see how 20-30 hours of subordinates' time could be spent on the problem, perhaps even resulting in someone's termination and the corresponding costs of finding a replacement.

    Clearly total cost of Spam is much higher than, say, a nice serving of fish.

  14. Senior management, ugh by SuperBanana · · Score: 5, Insightful
    "If someone in senior management gets spammed," Mr. Lewis said, "it could take 20 or 30 hours of everyone's time, up and down the chain."

    That's not the fault of spam- that's the fault of whiny executives. Execs are always whining about efficiency, "making the sacrifice", cutting the fat...yet they're responsible for more productivity loss for most IT departments than other employees combined.

    When 2-3 execs moved into the office I was supporting, they were a massive drain, killing my productivity- because any time even the slightest thing was wrong, we had to drop what we were doing, and rush to make the Big Baby happy.

    Executives, hear this. One sure fire way to enhance the productivity of your IT staff is to learn how to use your #$!@ing email program, not complain when your desktop is the wrong color, learn how to back up your data, and don't make us run in circles on your bloody little pet projects. Don't even get me started about personal printers/fax machines.

    1. Re:Senior management, ugh by Tailhook · · Score: 4, Interesting

      This depends on just how "senior" your executive is. If you're dealing with the senior management of a struggling startup, you can have an indifferent attitude. On the other hand, if Rick Wagoner gets an add for "free porn" in his inbox, you can damn well bet all hell will break loose. If he gets spam it indicates a breakdown occurred in a chain of responsibilities shared by multiple highly paid people. I'd be mad too.

      We need to move beyond email. If executive management is using email to do actual business then it needs to grow up. Messages need electronic signatures than can be examined and verified before a message is accessed. Getting a worthy signature needs to cost a bit of money. That's all it would take to kill spam. If you want to get a message to me I require that you pony up and get yourself a signature, otherwise, forget it. Send messages to people who like dysfunctional communication mechanisms.

      --
      Maw! Fire up the karma burner!
  15. First Amendment rights my ass by mudshark · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Since most, if not virtually all spam is commercial in nature, it is not protected by the First Amendment. Kind of like the whiny telemarketers suing the FCC -- nobody has a "right" to try and sell me anything, thanks. And use of a recipient-pays delivery model removes them even more from the collective good graces of everyone trying to wade out from under the deluge. So screw the bogus legal pretext and lets get on with some gruesome public executions.

    --
    In other news, astrophysicists have announced that they now know what all that dark matter is: it's stupidity.
    1. Re:First Amendment rights my ass by Arker · · Score: 2, Informative

      Has nothing to do with whether it's commercial or not. The first amendment guarantees your right to speak - NOT your right to hijack servers and bandwidth all across the world in order to force people to listen to you.

      --
      =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
      Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
    2. Re:First Amendment rights my ass by dissy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That one had me confused as well.
      The First Amendment says the government can not stop you from speaking out aginst the government.

      If the government isnt the ones stopping the spam from getting to you, it does not voilate the amendment.
      Anyone else can do so.

      Additionally, the government CAN stop spam from reaching their own staff (IE their own mail server can use spam filters) as long as that mail server ONLY serves the workers and noone else.

      The only way the first amendment is involved is if a non government related person attempts to say something to another non government related person, and a government related person steps in to prevent that from happening.

      This is the main reason its so hard to pass a federal law to stop spam.
      Spam can NOT be defined as a type of email for them to outlaw it.
      They have to define it in another way that relates to an already criminal act.

      This is why in some states (not nearly enough), it is already illegal to forge headers or use misleading subject lines.

      But this is the only thing the first amendment prevents, is a law aginst spam directly. Doesnt prevent anyone else from stopping it.

    3. Re:First Amendment rights my ass by kaltkalt · · Score: 2, Informative

      There are dozens of exceptions. I'll give you a few:
      1. You are not allowed to advertise fraudulently.
      2. You are not allowed to reveal national secrets.
      3. You are not allowed to violate a gag order given by a court.
      4. You are not allowed to perform someone's song publicly unless you pay a fee.
      5. You are not allowed to yell "fire!" in a crowded theater. (sorry, couldn't resist)
      6. You are not allowed to speak on my lawn. Ever.
      7. You are not allowed to show obscene material in public. You are not even allowed to LOOK at kiddie porn.
      8. You are not allowed to give away trade secrets of your employer.
      9. You are not allowed to incite illegal activity.
      10. Defamation is not protected speech. If you defame me, you cannot use the first amendment as a defense.

      Oh, there are plenty of others, but those are 10 nice, good ones. BTW I've read the First Amendment, as well as thousands of supreme court cases interpreting it. Now, if you're one of those people who believe the Constitution is not meant to be applied to real-life facts, then what can I say. Sorry, but you live in the real world.

      --

      Stupid people make stupid things profitable.
  16. Cost/Benefit by Killer+Eye · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It could be that cost is the wrong focus. Advertising the lack of benefits might deter spammers. By now most people have a knee-jerk reaction to delete the stuff before ever seeing what's in it; therefore, it stands to reason that the cost of paying someone to send ads anonymously may now outweigh the payback. Posting some hard stats on that might get organizations to send less spam, or pay spammers less money, or fire some spammers - all of which could result in less spam.

    --
    "Microsoft killed my company, I hold a personal grudge. I don't use Microsoft products and neither should you."-JWZ
  17. Where the dollars are... by JohnGrahamCumming · · Score: 5, Insightful

    A number of people have responded "But I can delete spam really fast" etc.
    claiming that the costs quoted seem way to high. What they don't estimate is
    the full cost within an organization of dealing with a problem like spam which
    is greatly increased by a number of factors:

    1. Management get annoyed by spam and see it as a drain on their team's
    time and want to do something about it: that costs time there for them---
    because they are thinking about spam and not making widget X---and the IT
    department of the company who has to respond to the manager's questions re:
    what are we doing about this problem?

    2. Not all employees are as sophisticated as the Slashdot crowd (can't believe
    I said that) and so for them spam is a far greater time sink (== $$$). They
    start wondering why they got the spam (especially when it's pornographic) and
    wonder if they did something wrong or if someone is going to "find out". While
    they think about spam they are not working.

    3. Spam is a workplace nuisance for the HR department because offensive material
    that enters the workplace becomes the employer's problem when people go to HR
    to say that the employer should "do something" about the offensive material
    (after all an employer would "protect" its employees from a calendar of nude
    women or a harrassing coworker). More $$ spent in the time to complain and HR
    doing something about it.

    4. And finally there's the IT guy who bears the brunt trying to fight the battle
    against spam when he's got plenty of other stuff to do. And so he buys expensive
    software to deal with the problem. More $$ spent on his time and the software and
    maintaining the software.

    It's just a little more complicated than "can't people just delete the stuff". Even
    people who say "just get tool XYZ" overlook the cost of deploying (to 1000s of
    desktop machines), training employees (to use the thing) and maintaining it. That's
    a very expensive proposition.

    John.

    1. Re:Where the dollars are... by Tenareth · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The # of complaints that go to HR stating "This stuff is DISGUSTING! You must stop it NOW!" is enough to cause quite a lot of hoop-la.

      And before you say "never give out your e-mail" there are Sales and Support people that really don't have a choice.

      Not to mention those public e-mail addresses on websites... "support@mycompany.com" that are just absolutely drowned with spam.

      SpamAssassin/MimeDefang are a nice cost-effective combination though, and have so far proven to be quite effective.

      --
      This sig is the express property of someone.
    2. Re:Where the dollars are... by josh+crawley · · Score: 2, Funny

      And before you say "never give out your e-mail" there are Sales and Support people that really don't have a choice.

      Not to mention those public e-mail addresses on websites... "support@mycompany.com" that are just absolutely drowned with spam.


      Don't forget that, thanks to email worms, there's really no such thing as a "private" email address anymore. If you forwarded an email to a friend, who forwarded to a friend, ad nauseum any one of those people in the trail not only has the address, but might also unwillingly pass it on to others if infected with an email worm.

      The problem here is that an email address is basically like giving out a master key to your house, just so someone can drop off a note. There's no authentication inherent in the specifications.

      This is why I think that all sub-standard open source mail servers should be outlawed in favor of Exchange 2000, which in coordination with Active Directory is the only messaging solution which supports a PKI (Public Key Infrastructure) whereby sources of email can be authenticated by the sender's trusted certificate, and if necessary blocked.

    3. Re: Where the dollars are... by gidds · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Not to mention the need to spend money on email systems (hardware, software, networks, &c) to collect, transport, store, and present perhaps many times the volume of genuine email.

      Another thing people hereabouts seem to forget is that people receive different quantities of spam. Even a newbie could cope with one spam message a week. All but the clueless could handle one a day. Most people would be mildly annoyed by one an hour, but not debilitated. One a minute, though, would tax most people, and even a hardcode techie would be hard pushed to cope with one a second. It's all a matter of degree, and some suffer more than others.

      --

      Ceterum censeo subscriptionem esse delendam.

  18. Secretaries used to do this by billstewart · · Score: 3, Interesting
    Remember when people had secretaries, who kept track of where they were supposed to be, filtered their incoming paper mail, decided what they'd think was important, and handled communications when they were travelling? Most executives still have them, though their titles are often "executive assistant" or whatever, and they can still filter out spam...

    But yes, execs do sometimes need handholding. Years ago, while I was still doing sysadmin, the head of one of the neighboring departments would ask me for help when his Mac wouldn't print. Hey, I was a Unix guy, not a Mac guy, though if they'd gotten me a Mac I'd have been quite happy - but 95% of the time it was a matter of rebooting the network printer frob a couple of times and it'd work....

    --

    Bill Stewart
    New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
  19. Re: Jacuzzi Jet by larry+bagina · · Score: 3, Funny
    I have not had any type of sex with a man for two years

    Wow. Marriage sure has changed you, CmdrTaco!

    --
    Do you even lift?

    These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.

  20. On the off chance you were not being sarcastic by b!arg · · Score: 2, Funny

    To: CEO
    From: John Smith
    Subject: V*I*A*G*R*A

    To: CEO
    From: Your Buddy
    Subject: Are you feeling a little less than you could be?

    Now let's take a poll. How long wold it take for most of you to figure out this is Spam? How many of you would approach the 10 second mark for deleting both of these? If you are, then you have a slow trigger finger.

    --

    Everybody dies frustrated and sad and that is beautiful
    1. Re:On the off chance you were not being sarcastic by Hoser+McMoose · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I used to work in the spam-filtering industry, so I saw a LOT of spam. I think my two favorites while I worked there were:

      "I ride ze boat and I take it in ze poopah"

      and

      "Fill your pants with an elephantine schlong"

      An "elephantine schlong"?! First off, who the hell uses the word "elephantine"?! Then to follow it up with the word "schlong"? This particular one was one of about 1000 possible permutations of subject lines for a particular penis-enlargement spam (ie they had a whole list of "Grow a", "Get a", "Please her with a", starting lines, followed by dozens of synonyms for "big", then dozens of slang words for "penis", and the mailer randomly built a subject line from them, common trick for spammers, though usually not too difficult to filter), but of all the possible permutations, the "elephantine schlong" was definitely the funniest IMO.

      Of course, my favorite actual spam message of all time was the guy asking for a supplier of Acme flux capacitors and the mind warper. I haven't got a frigging clue how this spam ever made any money for anyone!

  21. Personnel Time costs vs. bandwidth by billstewart · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Hey, even though they've got a few orders of magnitude variation in the costs, at least they're talking about the costs of wasted employee time, which is the real cost, and not whining about bandwidth usage. Yes, when I'm on dialup, downloading spam takes some time, but on a work LAN or on DSL at home it's very little download time, and the bits it consumes are usually a lot less than reading Slashdot.

    That's also true for ISPs - web traffic carries a lot more bits than spam, and while spam email probably outnumbers real email by byte-count as well as message count, it's not really a big deal for connectivity-provider ISPs. (Email-specialist ISPs are obviously another case entirely.) On the other hand, the worker-time cost of handling spam complaints and trying to keep filters up to date is more important than the cost of the bits.

    Almost all email programs let you display the sender and subject without opening the message. 90% of the time it's pretty easy to tell just from reading those whether to delete it without opening - filters can often trash many of those messages automatically, but they can also speed up the decision time by marking suspicious messages.

    --

    Bill Stewart
    New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
  22. Real costs by WindBourne · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Funny thing is that Viruses actually cost more than spam, yet these folks are worrying about spam.

    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    1. Re:Real costs by sbszine · · Score: 3, Funny

      It's because spam is incredibly annoying as opposed to merely damaging. If a virus is a knife in the guts once a year, spam is a snotty finger in the eye, twenty times a day, forever. Not surprising that many people make stopping spam a higher priority.

      --

      Vino, gyno, and techno -Bruce Sterling

  23. First amendment righats? OXDUNG. by Pig+Hogger · · Score: 4, Insightful
    The first amendment DOES NOT COVER SPAMMING.

    Anybody who says otherwise is BULLSHITTING.

    The first amendment talks about Freedom of speech - freedom of the press. Nowhere does it permits anyone from using someone else's press, as spamming does by using someone else's computer/network ressources.

    1. Re:First amendment righats? OXDUNG. by cpt+kangarooski · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Nowhere does it permits anyone from using someone else's press, as spamming does by using someone else's computer/network ressources.

      You are correct.

      But, I ask, isn't it okay for other people to use your resources if you give them permission. You have to say yes, because the ability to grant or deny permission to others is very important if you want to assert control over things. If you're not able to act as the gatekeeper, someone else could let others in or deny them contrary to your wishes.

      So you get to pick who gets to use your resources.

      Isn't the mere fact that you have an email address implicit permission for people to mail you? I think it must be. It's a reasonable expectation in society that one's front door, or telephone, or email address, are invitations to make reasonable communications. Nothing harrassing -- door to door salesmen shouldn't be ringing on the bell at 3 in the morning. (though a sheriff come to warn you about an impending flood is a different matter) But email isn't especially harassing, being so damn easy to get rid of, to filter, etc. It's easier to dispose of than real live junk mail, which takes some physical effort, you know.

      Telemarketing uses your phone resources, ties up your line, uses up your precious time. Junk mail fills up your mailbox displacing important mail, is sitting on your property, again uses up your time in sorting it from what you actually want, and may cost money or other resources to dispose of. Door to door soliciting is a trespass on your property, and again uses up your time.

      But you're expected to suck it up like a man regardless of the cost to your resources because this is part of living in the world. And no one is stopping you from getting out of that expectation, but in the absence of action on your part, you'd better get used to it.

      Now, if you explicitly retract this permission to contact you, that's fine. Put up a no soliciting sign and no one should come to your door to sell things to you. Get on a no call list and your phone should never ring with a sales pitch. Specifically tell junk mailers to leave you alone, and they had better. But UNLESS AND UNTIL YOU DO there is nothing wrong with people spamming you -- aside from that spam, or any other form of advertising, IMO, is amazingly evil.

      So stop bullshitting, bullshitter.

      --
      -- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
    2. Re:First amendment righats? OXDUNG. by cpt+kangarooski · · Score: 2, Interesting

      All advertising is evil? Nah.

      No, I think it is. But it's a difference of opinion, and I respect that other people might not find ads to be as utterly abhorrent as I do. I don't understand that position, but it's valid enough.

      Anyway, this is besides the point.

      Spam, on the other hand, is theft. I pay for my server space. I pay for my bandwidth. ***I*** pay for the spammers to semd me there shite, which is why spam is wrong.

      And how do you _not_ pay for your telephone, mailbox, or the property leading up to your front door? You pay for people to call you, mail you, or personally solicit you, or at least are harmed by it, probably about as much as you're harmed by spam.

      Barring YOU explicitly getting them to stop, those things are allowed. Spam isn't fundementally different.

      Who bears the costs is irrelevant, provided that they're costs ordinarily borne in society and you're not trying to avoid such costs meaningfully. Speech doesn't hinge on such silly things as cost bearing.

      --
      -- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
  24. First Amendment rights? by PaulK · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Public institutions like Indiana University have to be sensitive to the First Amendment rights of the spammers.

    First Amendment rights do not apply to spam. First, let's look at just the communication aspect of it. Spam is not directed at an individual per se, but at a list of millions of people. The fact is, though, that individuals DO receive it personally. It is in their face, staring at them from their mailbox. This is not a soapbox preacher that you can just walk away from; we are forced to deal with it on a personal level, at our own expense. The First Amendment guarantees "Free Speech", not a "forced audience".

    Now, let's look at the content side of spam. It has been determined repeatedly that the First Amendment is not protection for unproven claims, scams, or lack of "truth in advertising". Companies and individuals who have parlayed these things into First Amendment cases have invariably lost.

    If a person or company wishes to advertise to me, they may do so. Advertising, historically, is at the expense of the company, not the consumer.

    When I get spam from an open relay, with forged headers, bad return info, and base64 encoded, exactly how much do they think I'm going to spend on their product? Exactly how seriously do they think I'll take them?

    The answer is: I take them very seriously indeed. Not for any reason that they hope for, however. I CAN and WILL pursue them, catch them, and put them under the brightest light that I can find.

    Because, I am a spammerhunter.

  25. Re:Wrong Thinking? by globalar · · Score: 2, Insightful
    "'Spam, although it is a bad thing per se, is fostering the growth of the e-mail infrastructure,' he said."

    I disagree with this positive outlook on spam. Technically, Dr. Fader is right: the infrastructure grows because spam forces it to do so.

    This is not productive growth to me, it's just fat. One needs more bandwidth and processing capability to manage spam. This capacity could be used for other avenues, or the money spent someplace else. This is bad economics - something along the lines of the broken window fallacy.

    I do think spammers have made us think smarter about email (a good thing), but we have paid for that in many ways. There are no net gains here - at least not from my perspective.

  26. My Rough Estimate by duplicate-nickname · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I'm pulling these numbers partly from my experience and partly from my ass.

    Average user at work receives ~ 10 spam messages per day, with our spam filters catching 80%, so the user receives 2 per day.

    I figure you can classify spam messages into 3 types which require varying amount of effort to determine when to delete them.

    First, you have obvious spam that can be deleted by reading the subject. I figure that 25% that get though spam filters are this type. Let's say they require 5 seconds to read/delete.

    Second type requires the user opening the message and reading the contents. Let's say 70% are this type and require 15 seconds.

    The last type are the ones that confuse users or they think they are legit. These are the messages that users will reply to, talk to their coworkers about, or forward to IS to be verified. This would be the remaining 5% and require 5 minutes (300 seconds) of time.

    With those numbers, the users spend 27 seconds per message or 54 seconds per day.

    Per year, that is 5.475 hours. If the average cost of a user (pay + benefits) is $30/hour then the annual cost for spam per user is $164.25/year or $0.225/spam.

    Now, we are running spam software in this situation. Figure that the spam software cost $10/user/year in licensing, and an additional $10/user/year in hardware or administrative costs. I'm also assuming that the spam load on our mail servers is minimal enough that the costs involved there are insignificant.

    That puts the total now at $184.25/year. However, without antispam software, that total would sky rocket to $821.25/year since the user would have to deal with 5x the spam. Of course, this may be high since there will probably a larger percentage of those 5-seconds-to-delete messages.

    About the only interesting thing about these BS numbers is that the lower one ($184) is close to Ferris Research's estimate of $168/year; while the higher number ($821) is close to Nucleus Research's $874/year.

    --

    ÕÕ

    1. Re:My Rough Estimate by Jesus+IS+the+Devil · · Score: 2

      You forgot to mention the guy that opens the attachment to become infected with the Melissa virus (not everyone updates their antivirus software you know).

      Or the extra admin/programming effort it takes to combat spam.

      Or the additional cpu processing and hard drive space required to deal with spam.

      --

      eTrade SUCKS
  27. The art of vast overestimation by 1029 · · Score: 2, Funny

    Everyone must be adopting the RIAA method of calculating costs due to "illegal" actions.

    Researchers: Hey, your company only makes $10 million net per year. How the hell are you claiming $1 billion in lost profit due to spam?
    Company: Wha?? Look at the monkey! Look at the silly monkey...
    Researchers: Oh, I see. $1 billion it is.

    --
    - I love animals. I try to eat at least one a day.
  28. Laws Won't Help by Shmew · · Score: 2, Interesting

    You can't legislate your way out of the spam mess. Read this: http://www.zeropath.com/bigbiz.html for an example of how Spam legislation will backfire on us all and only end up supporting Microsoft.

  29. What is the real cost of Spam? by dryguy · · Score: 4, Funny
    $2.50 a can.

    Next question?

    --
    -- Stamp out entropy. ->dryguy@bellsloth.net
  30. What are MCI thinking? by whoever57 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    "Spammers know they are going to be kicked off, so they won't pay their first few months' bill," said Craig Silliman, the legal director for MCI's network and facilities operation. "By the time you catch them, they turn into a net loss."

    So, not only do they fail to act on SPAM reports, but they don't disconnect for failing to pay? What are they thinking? I mean, how long does it take to "catch" a SPAMMER on their own network?

    --
    The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
  31. The true costs are social by firewood · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Getting a mailbox full of raw sewage and dirty needles every day would probably be fine if you were an organic farmer into collecting antique medical instruments. If you are an office worker only takes a few seconds to use a fire hose and wash the stink off your desk and inbox at work every morning; that's what storm drains are for. I'm sure the FBI would never arrest your household because of the contents of all those needles you have to throw in the garbage every day. You have to be careful opening packages in order not to get stuck with an infected needle.

    Now your mom doesn't want to check her mailbox at all anymore. But many people would just tell mom to call instead, since they no longer want to search for her letter amidst the toxic waste. And they certainly wouldn't send their kids down to stick their hand in the mailbox anymore with all those wrapped and unwrapped filthy needles.

    People will stop wasting their time with email (as currently implemented), and thus this new form of communication will be strangled soon after its birth.

  32. There's no First Amendment right to spam! by Eric+Smith · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Public institutions like Indiana University have to be sensitive to the First Amendment rights of the spammers.
    There's no First Amendment right to spam! The First Amendment guarantees your right to speak, but does not guarantee you the use of any particular venue for your speech, nor the right to make others pay for your speech, which is what spamming does. Courts have ruled that there is not a First Amendment right for a telemarketer to call you if you don't want to be called; it will be quite a surprise if courts decide otherwise for spam.
  33. Do not delete "spam" email. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Just as commercials on television pay for the programming you get to enjoy, advertisements in email are there to defray the cost of the email infrastructure. If you don't take the time to read these short, unintrusive messages, advertisers will be unwilling to pay to advertise on the internet. Who then will pay for the email system you take for granted?

    The evasion of commercial email is a serious ethical, moral, and legal issue. Users caught implementing "filters" to evade their responsibilities could face an expensive lawsuit or even jail time.

    We as a society must learn to respect the copyrights and first amendment rights of bulk emailers, many of whom struggle to put food on the table for their families. To summarize:

    1. Commercial email deletion is a serious moral and legal issue.

    2. "Everyone does it" or "I didn't know it was illegal to filter spam" are not valid excuses.

    3. Filter users could face an expensive lawsuit or even jail time. To avoid this threat, just delete all spam filtering software you may have installed on your computer.

    4. We will not rest until this insidious form of electronic shoplifting is eradicated for good.

  34. Re:Glutton for punishment? by AntiOrganic · · Score: 2, Insightful

    All of our plans have a minimum of 5 included email accounts. We're not cheapasses, we cater to small business and sites that go beyond what would be better off on Geocities where they started.

    We do provide a web form, but the fact that 2% of our customers use it over the email-based system does indicate that what you're suggesting is inconvenient for customers. In fact, the only customers we seem to find using the web system are the ones who have web-based mail, such as Yahoo or Hotmail.

    And I understand completely -- it's much easier to open up your email client and fire out an email to tech support in 15 seconds that says "OMG HELP ME I CANT GET TO ANY WEBSITES AND MY EMAIL ISENT WORKING!!!!!!1111one" than it is to open up your web browser, navigate to the user login page, log in with SSL, find the support link, then fill in your "issue" and send.

  35. Spam and government by Tarivus · · Score: 2, Insightful

    While I hate spam as much as the next person, we (Americans in this case) have to look at it from a more legal and governmental nature. While alot of us would chomp at the bit to outlaw spam, set fines and jailtime for spammers, you have to look at what that would do to the laws over the internet. It would set a precident stating that the governments of the world HAVE CONTROL OVER THE INTERNET. This is bad... very very bad.

    First of all, the first thing that would come out the door after the anti-spam laws would be taxes. That's right, taxes on E-mail, taxes on webpage badnwidth, taxes on everything. Why have they not done this yet? Because the governments cannot establish that they have any ruling or administrating connection to the internet, therefore they cannot tax it. Once an internet law is passed, taxes will follow.

    After taxes will come modified libel(slander) laws, court cases over websites (i.e.: he has an anti-gay site, I'm sueing!!), next maybe even such things over e-mail and the like.

    Passing any internet-based law would open the door for the government to get its paws on the one truly unmoderated frontier left in the world. They futz with it enough as it is, do we really need that?

    --
    Thinking outside the box is so big now that doing so is really putting youself back in the box. There is no box.
  36. Snappy comebacks by vaxer · · Score: 4, Funny
    "I got three spams this morning, can you do anything about it?"

    1. Not if you keep zeroing out the machete budget.
    2. Sure, why don't we trade accounts? I got sixty.
    3. Okay, I'll post your address on Usenet. You'll never wake up to three spams again.
  37. Sensitive to First Amendment rights? BS! by Skapare · · Score: 4, Interesting
    Public institutions like Indiana University have to be sensitive to the First Amendment rights of the spammers.

    What kind of BS is that? No they do not.

    IU and other public institutions are NOT lawmakers, nor are they free public resources. Now if individual students are doing the spamming, there may be some complexities to deal with, especially if other students are the targets of the spam. But public schools are not a resource that anyone may just freely use.

    If the school does make certain facilities open for public use, then they do have to do so fairly. That means, for example, if a facility like a stadium is used for a convention by members of the public (and usually these are done on a basis of school use has first priority, student use second priority, and public use last and usually paid), then spammers would probably have to be given equal access as members of the public. So you might see a spammer's convention meeting there.

    The real issues are:

    • Students spamming students (and we might include faculty here, too) using school computing and/or network facilities.
    • Students spamming the internet from school facilities.
    • Spammers spamming students (ingress use of school facilities).

    Does Kinkos have a right to post signs anywhere on school property to advertise their copying services to students? No! They must follow specific rules. There might be places designated for signs to be posted. The school newspaper might be advertising supported and Kinkos could buy ad space there. The school might even sell naming rights to the gymnasium to Kinkos (if they want to buy that). But there exists no free right for anyone, not even students or faculty, to come and commandeer any resource they wish for their own purposes.

    Certainly this rules out students spamming the internet, and I would argue it also gives no one in the public any particular right to communicate with a student on the school's network, even if the student grants that permission by signing up for advertising. The school owns the property and it is generally well considered to not be public use property. The school is definitely not preventing people from using their own personal property/resources when that school restricts the ways the school's property/resources are used to be limited to what the mission of the school is.

    It might be a whole different matter if a government entity were setting up a network, such as an open WiFi node, for anyone in the public to make use of. That is not what public institutions of higher learning do.

    --
    now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
  38. Re:Let's say it's $1B by schon · · Score: 3, Informative

    Well, if the spammers are costing more money than they are generating then they too are hurting the economy, and rules need to be made to regulate them.

    The whole 'frea speach' issue is a red herring, used by spammers to make stupid people take pause before doing something.

    The first amendment guarantees the right to say whatever you want, but it does not guarantee the right to use other people's resources to say it.

    There is NO first amendment issue regarding spam.

  39. Cost by schnitzi · · Score: 2, Funny

    Sure, spam has cost me a lot over the years, but if this deal comes through helping Mrs. Mariam Sese-Seko (widow of late president Mobuto Sese-Seko of Zaire) transfer her money out of the country, I'll have more than broke even!

    --



    I object to that article, and to the next reply.
  40. Stupid System Administrators by sirket · · Score: 4, Informative
    I have said this before, and I will say it again:

    If people would set up their email servers correctly, I could eliminate 99% of the spam from my systems. Unfortunately, a bunch of administrators seem to feel that they do not actually have to configure their systems correctly. If I want to be able to receive mail from them, then I need to open my server up and allow misconfigured servers to talk to it. Guess who has the majority of (usually intentionally) misconfigured servers. You guessed it, spammers.

    Getting rid of spam is simple. Stop bitching about it and fix your own damned mail server.

    Do you:
    1. Have a postmaster account?
    2. Have an abuse account?
    3. Have reverse DNS?
    4. Have matching forward and reverse DNS?
    5. HELO with your server's Fully Qualified Domain Name (FQDN)?
    6. Use a FQDN at all points during the transaction?
    7. Have an A Record in DNS for those FQDN's?
    8. Have proper MX records?
    9. Use strict RFC821 envelopes?
    10. Reject unauthorized command pipelining?
    11. Reject non-existent sender domains? (joe@doesnotexist.com)
    12. Reject invalid HELO names (Either non-FQDN's, HELO names that do not resolve, HELO names that do not resolve to the IP address of the connection, or hosts that use a numeric HELO without brackets)
    13. Accept email for postmaster@a.b.c.d (Where a.b.c.d is the external address of your email server and e.f.g.h is the internal, non-NAT'd address). Many hosts fail this test (Though this is not something that you, as the receiver, would be checking.)

    Just my two cents.

    -sirket

  41. Lost Productivity by kramer2718 · · Score: 4, Funny

    The lost productivity due to spam is inconsequential compared to the lost productivity due to Slashdot.

  42. First amendment does not apply by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Spammers are marketing parasites on services that we pay for. I have an email address so that people I want to hear from can send me messages, not so that I can receive unsolicited marketing.

    In an ideal world, spammers could be sued for theft of services, or could be forced to subsidize the connectivity costs of the recipient. I wouldn't mind spam so much if each piece I received deposited $0.25 or so into my paypal account. I'd still filter it, but at least I'd be paid for my troubles.

    Marketers are free to put up web sites, and even pay to advertise on other sites, but they don't have a right to blast everyone on the net with random garbage.

    The First Amendment guarantees each American Freedom of expression. It does not guarantee that anyone has to listen to you.

  43. Price sounds about right by theLOUDroom · · Score: 2, Interesting

    It's amazing how many people are screaming:
    "There's no way spam costs $1/message"
    "It doesn't take me that long to hit the delete key."


    [sarcasm]What an amazing, informative analysis[/sarcasm]

    First off, they're probably figuring their cost as their take home pay. This is much too low.
    Say I was to make around $25/hr. That says nothing about all the other hidden costs/tradeoffs going on. I could be making that much, but the corp. I work for could be billing for my time at a rate of $1000/day. If they have a substantial backlog of contracts, they basically are loosing out on that much money if I don't work for a day.

    Now lets do some math. $1000/8hours = 125 dollars / hour * 1 hour / 60 min = $2.08 / minute

    Say it takes me 15 seconds to open up outlook, see the message, realize it's spam, delete it, and go back to what I was doing. That's $.52 right there.
    Then you have to add in other costs.
    How much did/does it cost to store that email? How much did it cost to download it (including the gifs)? How much of your IT staff's time is devoted to reducing spam, upgrading mailservers, deleting old mail, backing up mail, etc? Is that email you just got from Hamza Kalu just spam, or an event that should be reported to corporate security? (Some businesses do have to worry about fraud/industrial espionage via forged email.) How much time did you spend thinking about that? Five seconds? Ten?
    Is the spam clever enough to fool other, less tech savvy people? (I once recieved a fake email from BestBuy.com's fraud dept, the would be pretty convincing to someone who doesn't know much about conputers.) How much time do you spend warning them?

    Spam is costing businesses a significant amout of money. It may cost less for some and more for others, but it seems some people have no idea how quickly the dollar signs add up when you're running a business. I know I have a tough time wrapping my brain around it.

    --
    Life is too short to proofread.
  44. As a tech at an ISP... by SlimFastForYou · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I can say that spam does cost. Many calls I get have me spending time walking clueless people through the steps necessary to enable the server-side spam filter and the client-side mail rules.

    It doesn't end there, either. From what users are saying, it seems like spammers trade their mailing lists which cause users to recieve increasing amounts of spam. Some users complain that it takes too long to download the spam. I kindly remind them that not only does our mail server have to download the mail but also transmit the mail to them.

    Figure you are on a bit of mailing lists, and you receive 500K of spam per day (some messages are html with images). The ISP has to use 1000k (say a megabyte) for that user. Multiply that by 4,000 users, and you have 4 GB of data transfer. Think of it as a T1 simultaneously using maximum up and down bandwidth for almost THREE HOURS.

    That is not even mentioning the users who get on a billion mailing lists and never check their mail/delete their messages. Say (a conservative figure) 50 users got 500K of spam per day. That's almost 750 MB/month. 9 gigs of hard drive gone in the name of unread spam in a year. It all adds up folks.

    Screw the Do-Not-Call list, I would rather have had a Do-Not-Email list _first_. When an occasional telemarketer calls my home or my workplace, there is a ~30 second distraction. End of story. Nothing like a day of 20 minute phone calls walking users through setting up spam filters and explaining to them why they get so much spam. Although my job is a part-time one, I figure around $150 in labor is paid by both parties per day (the ISP and customers) to set up a *workaround* (which sometimes isn't enough for high-volume victims of spam).

  45. Here's a simpler way to calculate the cost. by edunbar93 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Take the cost of running a mail server. Hardware, upgrades, bandwidth, administration.

    Multiply by 40-60%. This is the noise part of the signal-noise ratio that is e-mail. I'm sure you get the picture.

    And that's if you don't even try to squelch the noise. Hardware and administration costs go up exponentially when you start diverting CPU time from sorting mail to filtering it.

    Oh, and don't forget the problem is getting worse - exponentially.

    It won't be long until 80-90% of the cost of running a mail server goes towards dealing with ads for things that would make the ACLU wish they hadn't fought the CDA. Now consider how much money Sprint spends on providing e-mail to their clients. And consider how Sprint would love to see 70-80% of that cost go away. I would imagine the next conservative administration would introduce legislation that would legalize the public flogging of spammers, just based on pressure from big business, nevermind the public.

    --
    "No problem. I have the capacity to do infinite work so long as you don't mind that my quality approaches zero."-Dilbert
  46. I've been there by Dr.+Evil · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It's really about a bunch of senior executive yes-men overreacting. Usually what happens is something like this:


    • Exec: "Oh look, somebody is trying to extend my member. I hate spam."
      Assistant: (takes mental note and walks into a neighbouring execs office, usually somebody in IT, and says) "--insert head hancho's name-- is getting deluged with spam, it's a real problem. Could we have somebody come up here and do something?"
      IT Exec: "That's unfortunate, I'll see what I can do"
      IT Exec: (calls personal friend in technical support (kiss-ass middle management), chats about golf, the latest corporate results, a couple real business related things, and adds: --insert head hancho's name-- is having a real problem with Spam, can we do anything?
      Kiss-ass middle managment: (calls lower management of tech support) "--insert head hancho's name-- has a critical presentation to do and their computer won't work anymore! Send somebody up there quick! I don't care what they're doing, this takes priority, this is --insert head hancho's name--!"
      Lower management to techie(this response can really vary): "--insert head hancho's name--'s computer is messed up, I need you to pop up and have a look. --kiss assed middle management-- is very concerned, so this is unfotunately high profile."
      Techie, calls Assistant: "What's up?"
      Assistant: "We're being killed with spam, --insert head hancho's name-- is furious, get up here now!"
      Techie to Exec: "Hello, --assistant-- says you're being killed with spam, do you have any of it left?"
      Exec: "No, I deleted it, don't worry about it"
      Techie: "Next time you get one, hang on to it and we might be able to do something about it. --spout summarized corporate spam policy--. Do you need anything else?"
      Exec: "No, that's all for now, thanks."

    ...and the end result is that everyone it the IT department thinks that the top exec doesn't know how to hit the delete key.

    Not to say that there aren't technophobes in senior management, but in my experience, they're quick learners. Just tell them what to do and they'll remember. Often to your detriment.

  47. Cost of lost messages by rev063 · · Score: 2, Insightful
    The real cost to us (as a mid-size company with retail clients) isn't dealing with the spam itself, although our IT department spends a lot of time maintaining the filters (and when the spam filtering went offline last week, we really understood how much they were needed).

    The actual problem is the opportunity cost of the loss of legitimate email, both inbound and outbound. Files we send to customers often bounce back because attachments aren't allowed anymore (more of a virus thing than a spam thing, I suppose), requiring time to find alternatives (FTP or mail a CD?). Even emails without attachments are trapped by customer spam lists. Our mailserver has been unfairly blacklisted once or twice (some zealots put you on the list for sending an email circular to paying customers!) and as a result there are several customers we can't email at all. Emails customers send to us sometimes bounce back to them as spam -- this is the worst one, because we never even realise there's a problem unless they call us and complain (in which case it's always ourfault).

    The real problem is that email is no longer a reliable means of communication. What is the value of a communication channel that loses many of its messages?

  48. Some Actual Numbers by ticklemeozmo · · Score: 2, Informative

    In 45 days time, here are my company's official spam stats.

    Total email processed: 271,217
    Total junk email identified: 239,560

    88.32779% of email sent to our company is identified as spam.
    That's over 6000 a day.
    That's over 67 per account per day.

    Before we installed a spam filter (you may feel free to ask me which), each person had to sift through their hypothetical 10 emails and delete almost 9 spams.

    --
    When modding "Informative", please make sure it both has a source and IS actually informative.