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The GNU-Darwin World
proclus writes "The GNU-Darwin Distribution was founded
to leverage the open source development dynamic and build the infrastructure for
scientific computing on a new platform. Now GNU-Darwin is a major free software
project, and the infrastructure, such as parallel computing and molecular
graphics software is available to everyone via the web and on digital media
discs. Check it out. Also, Apple
has written up a story
about it."
Apple has no reason to open source specific pieces of their code. They are and have been a publicly-traded, capitalist computer maker that functions to make money. The company wouldn't exist if this were the case... Apple is first and foremost a hardware company. That is where they get their revenue. That is where they must always pledge allegiance. ...especially since I own quite a bit of their stock. ;)
I'm not popular enough to be different.
Homer Simpson, The Simpsons
I only wrote all that because I saw the fp oppourtunity. I knew very well that it was redundant, and yes, pretty much uninformative.
Please forgive me, slashdot mods and members alike.....for falling to the tome of firstpost.
Many Thanks,
Luke
Apple is a first and foremost software company that sells hardware to leverage its software business, at least I've heard it spun that way, too.
I don't know about you, but the APSL scares me a bit. There are some real nasty clauses in it, and Apple has this habit of stepping on everyone's toes. Their "Open Source" license is really giving them the ability to take your work and sell it as their own. I'm a Mac fan, but I'm hesitant to develop for them. Apple has a habit of forcing the people who support them out of the market and making enemies of their close friends. Look at the recent developments with Final Cut Pro, Safari, Soundtrack, etc.
I'll be glad when someone creates a generic Ports that works across all platforms. The news that Gentoo, Fink and Darwin ports where working together was great news. Gentoo has Linux, Fink Has MacOSX, and GnuDarwin has x86 and PPC.
FreeBSD/OpenBSD and all those Linux (Cooker type) distros have broken ports. Even the Binary only distros have broken packages. I think OpenBSD said 20%+ of BSD ports where broken, (anyone have the numbers?). This could fix all those problems across platforms.
Very nice.
Apple has this habit of steping on everyone's toes
I used to love the Mac. Coded for it, knew the thing
pretty inside out. Apple killed that when they killed the clones. They had a choice, and knew it, and considered it. They could have tried to become a mainstream manufacturer, with a lot of clout, and instead they chose to remain a high-priced niche manufacturer. (This isn't intended to stab at folks that still use Macs -- I'm just doubt I'll ever work in the Mac world again). They chose to serve folks who are willing to put down a fair amount of money for a polished closed-box experience. Not what I wanted -- I found Linux, and that was pretty much it.
So this makes me wonder what the point is of using Darwin. With OS X as a whole, there are some specific benefits that exist. Apple has UI standards in place, provides some services, like iTunes, that you may want. They've done a lot of eye candy. But is there any real point in using Darwin alone versus, say, Linux? Or, if you specifically want BSD, then compare it to plain ol' FreeBSD. I mean, what's the point?
May we never see th
"VIM, Ghostscript, Gnumeric, LaTeX, PyMOL [...] Rasmol, gdFortran, LAM/MPI, AbiWord, GNUplot, and Raster3D"
...not much there to entice me away from Linux, methinks.
Actually, the GPL imposes restrictions on further distribution. Therefore, it can't possibly be considered free compared to a license like BSD.
...digital media discs...
so...like....it's on CDs?
GNU is open source.
Darwin is open source.
So... what exactly are we getting here? LinuxPPC is faster than Darwin, so if you wanted something closer to GNU than Darwin, wouldn't you use that?
What's the user benefit? This is for people who bought a Mac and don't want Apple's GUI work? Or is this all the stuff that Apple would like to put in Darwin, but can't, due to the GPL license?
Speaking of which, there's this:
Please note: GNU Project considers Darwin non-free software and therefore does not recommend the use of this operating system. (see http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/apsl.html)
I mean, let me get this straight: GNU Darwin is the version of Darwin that the GNU project doesn't recommend?
Can someone clear this up in plain English?
(sig) The last bug isn't fixed until the last user is dead. (/sig)
This is the distribution that swore off PPC development because of political reasons, basically saying that Apple is so bad that they can't continue to use any part of the platform they are based on, but yet they are still producing that which they said they wouldn't (new stuff for PPC). They say silly things like "the most free" distribution, as if such a phrase has any meaning. They claim to be the premiere free software distribution for Mac OS X, which is plainly false, unless you are deluded into believing that only copylefted software is free software.
This is a project driven almost solely by politics, not technology, and they can't even be consistent there. Beware.
I used to follow the GNU-Darwin project quite heavily. I had installed it along side OS X and was even on the mailing lists. I must say that they do (or at least did) have extremely talented developers that have done a lot of good work for the project.
However, I found through the mailing list that the project is political to the extreme. Their most extreme bit of politics came when they decided to "discontinue" PPC development (as pudge mentioned) because they had issues with Apple. They were arrogant enough to think that this move would force Apple to backtrack on the things they had issues with.
It was about that time that I decided to drop GNU-Darwin completely. What kind of project drops support for the hardware that > 90% of their user-base is using? Well, from the looks of it they, not Apple, have backtracked and are still supporting PPC.
My advice would be to not take a second look at GNU-Darwin. Use Fink or OpenDarwin instead.
infested with jello like fishes no melotron wishes
All I can say is, as a Kiss fan from long ago, before they sucked, I find it difficult to take someone named "Dr. Love" very seriously.
Lost: Sig, white with black letters. No collar. Reward if found!
I absolutely agree with this and the parent post.
/usr/ instead of /usr/local) is what turned me off GNU-Darwin.
The politics and annoying GNU/GPL preaching on various mailing lists (and in the early days the insistence on installing/stomping onto Apple-supplied system parts in
There are three "Darwin" DARWIN proper is the one used by Apple and coresponds directly with OSX releases. OPENDARWIN was founded by Apple and ISC to allow more people to contribute to Darwin. Apple takes no responsibility for OPENDARWIN. Features found in OPENDARWIN may find there way into Apples DARWIN. GNU-DARWIN is totally GPL. It was founded in response to APSL.
You seem to drift topics. The APSL has nothing to do with FCP, Safari, or anything else in those lanes.
>FCP
Best of its class, hands down. This is called "making a competing product" and is normal business strategy--not forcing someone out of the market.
>Safari
You really need to stop drinking the Kool Aid.
No one really competes with Safari, not because Safari, but because Safari is *good*. Apple distributed a sucky version of IE as its standard web-browser and that has a *lot* to do with the user experience for a typical user. They needed to replace it, and no other web-browser for the mac quite cut it.
Once again. They produced a better product. Safari is now my primary web browser, not because I haven't used Mozilla or Camino, but because it is the best for what I do on the web (speed counts for a lot).
>Soundtrack
Who did Apple "force out" with this one?
They also needed something so that labels could publish music in m4p format, suitable for the iTMS.
You want an example? Take Watson. But none of your examples quite cut it.
Integrate Keynote and LaTeX
GPL = free software, copylefted: protects the [continuing] freedom of the FUTURE users, ensuring the software will STAY free software.
BSD = free software, non-copylefted: protects the [somewhat more ample] freedom of the CURRENT users, ensuring they can do [mostly] whatever they want with the code.
It's better to be the foot on the boot than the face on the pavement. ~~ tkx Kadin2048
Take a look at their quickstart script, which they suggest that you use by piping it to csh as root.
The first few steps:
They never check to see if the download was corrupted, or if someone had replaced it with something else.
Is it so hard to do something like:
For each of the few programs and libraries that they need to download to get the package manager up and running?
I've complained about this before, and I'm sorry to have to do so again, but running an unverified binary as root right after you download it is one of the STUPIDEST ideas I have seen.
We never said that we would produce no more new stuff for PPC, but rather that we would not link to proprietary libraries.
You yourself wrote: Second, we will be moving our operations to x86, and we are putting the ppc collection into maintenance mode. Read it yourself if you forget.
Regards,
proclus
http://www.gnu-darwin.org/
Maintanence mode means that we will continue to provide updates and support.
... this is different from how it was before, how, exactly? And how does the addition of brand-new PPC packages square with this?
So
Uh, since many people still think it means what I said it means, no, it is not a dead horse. Again, how is it different from what it was before? Is there an answer, or not?
The point is easy. With Mac you get a business desktop almost as good Windows + a Unix dev box almost as good as Linux fully integrated. When you compare this with the alternatives like:
Windows & Cygwin, Linux & Wine, VMWare Mac offers the far better product.
People use Fink/Darwinports/GnuDarwin because they want more Unix software than what Apple provides out of the box.
Dude, I *emailed you* to confirm that story before I posted on MacSlash, and you confirmed it. Is there some other version of fair reporting you'd like?
I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate.
Regards,
proclus
http://www.gnu-darwin.org/
Guess that makes them eligible for the Darwin awards.
"First you gotta do the truffle shuffle."
GNU is too restrictive to be fairly called "Free".
The terms are reversed-- the Open Source license determines free software. While GNU is merely "open source".
Yeah, and you guys panned the ipod too: http://apple.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/10/23
Macs have been a better deal pricewise than PCs since 1995.
Its time to stop modding up "insightful" every troll who comes along and whines about Macs being "expensive". IT just isn't true, and its a sure sign the person has never used a Mac.
And the point to Darwin, since you're ignorant of what it is, is that it has Apples new IO system, IOKit, and quite a variety of other stuff that is Apple written, and does not exist in BSD or Linux OSes (unless its migrated there.)
There's more to OSX than "eye candy".... if you were a Mac developer as you claim, you'd know that.
Yeah, and you guys panned the ipod too: http://apple.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/10/23
This is a Very, Very insightful post! I could not have described things better. Mod this up, up, up to the top please.
It's better to be the foot on the boot than the face on the pavement. ~~ tkx Kadin2048
I will argue that open-sourcing Darwin is for purely selfish reasons. There's no need for anything like altruism or ideology.
Apple chose to base OS X on BSD (FreeBSD, I believe) because it's a very good and stable platform. But they knew that they would have to make some changes to the kernel in order to port it to the PowerMac, since it's a hardware platform that that changes with each new release.
In order to reap the benefits of open source (getting updates from people all over the internet) they have to release their source as well. If they don't, then they end up needing a team of engineers to track and integrate updates that are made to the public source tree. And if the public tree undergoes an architecture change, Apple would have to integrate all of that - which can be expensive.
The only way to avoid this is for Apple to release their changes back to the community. In doing so, the community will have them in the baseline code that it uses for making changes. So when Apple then integrates those changes back into its own line, it's a relatively painless process.
In other words, by doing this, Apple greatly reduces their cost of using the BSD platform. And as a happy side-bonus, the rest of the world (that is, us) get access to the sources to the core of their flagship OS.
In fact is is a common practice to run unverified binaries for one-time bootstrapping purposes.
It may be common, but that doesn't make it a good idea.
I am not even that concerned about the risk of someone replacing one of the startup files with a trojened version - that's why I only used cksum and not something stronger.
When I was trying to download the Gnu-Darwin wget binary to generate the checksum for that example code, it took me 3 or 4 tries. The webserver was overloaded, and kept dropping the connection after a partial transfer. Had I been trying to do an install, it would have failed in an unpredictable manner.
By at least including a simple checksum check (and possibly checking the exit codes from curl and wget rather than assuming success) in the install shell script, the install could have failed cleanly, and let me know what happened.
If you have any other helpful suggestions, please feel free to pass them along. Cheers!
Regards,
proclus
http://www.gnu-darwin.org/
firstpost is a saga of people blatherignn thier mouthes off while making no sense and where are all the people to cahnge things backto wherei s t well mainstram fools!!!!
Many Thanks,
Luke
If MS windows takes the educational high ground, then the axiom that the average computer user is stupid will be proven. Making scientific computing available at a low cost is a noble goal. Go write some useless windows junkware, or game, I am sure you can peddle it to the average computer user. But do not fault those who try to keep the arts and the sciences available to those with ability and little money. In short go take a flying f...
Yes this is flamebait but you friggin' deserve it.
OH THE SHAME I fell off the wagon and use sigs again!
as I said they're different kind of freedoms, one is not necessarily more free than the other. Which one you consider more free is simply based on which kind of freedom you value most.
Actually, there is a philosophical tool to roughly measure "more free" and "less free" kinds of freedom, IIRC developed by Isaiah Berlin. It's the concept of "negative freedom" vs "positive freedom". Despite the name, negative freedom is better than positive, as it gives you more options. When I say - "you have the right to wear a blue hat", I give you positive freedom. When I say - "I don't care about the kind of hat you wear", I give you negative freedom. Obviosly, your personal freedom is broader in the latter case.
This concept is particularly useful when discussing totalitarian ideologies vs liberal ones. Dictatorship often claim to give their citizens more positive freedom ("our citizens have right to this, that and that... and nothing else") while democracies give negative freedom ("our citizens can do anything that's not prohibited").
So, back to the GPL/BSD - I think it offers mostly "positive freedom" ("you have right to this and that, anything else is prohibited") while the BSD offers mostly "negative freedom" ("this and that is prohibited; otherwise, do as you please").
We never said that we would produce no more new stuff for PPC
I won't debate what your intentions were - only you know that for certain. All I can say is that the traditional and commonly accepted meaning of the term "maintenance mode" is precisely that - patches and bugfixes only, with no new stuff.
If you misspoke, misunderstood the terms you were using, or simply changed your mind - just say so. You'll sound far less foolish doing that, than by continuing your constant Clinton-esque "that depends on what you mean by maintenance" denials.
Lost: Sig, white with black letters. No collar. Reward if found!
The confusion here arises solely from the incorrect headline at the time the story broke. There are no conspiracies or unseen agendas. We are only trying to reach Apple users with software freedom.
On the other hand, if people insist on believing and spreading falsehoods, then they might like to tell people that we don't support PPC. It is just that simple.
Regards,
proclus
http://www.gnu-darwin.org/
In your own words:
First, we are making explicit and binding the following policy. GNU-Darwin will not support or distribute any software which links to proprietary libraries...
Followed by:
Second, we will be moving our operations to x86, and we are putting the ppc collection into maintenance mode.
There's nothing at all ambiguous about this. You announced your intent to move your active development operations to x86, while putting ppc development into "maintenance mode." According to the commonly accepted, widely used meaning of the quoted term, your intent was to continue to apply patches and bug fixes to the packages you'd already made for ppc, but only create new packages only for x86.
The confusion here arises solely from the incorrect headline
Okay, let's run with that assertion. The natural question to ask is, why was the headline incorrect? Two possibilities come to mind. One is that you misused a common term, and the editors who wrote the headline assumed you were using it in the more commonly-accepted sense - given the general tone and context of the rest of the announcement, not to mention many of your messages prior to that, that's not an unreasonable assumption to make.
Another possibility is that the editors knew what you truly meant, but for some reason maliciously perverted the sense of your announcement for reasons of their own. As far as many of us are concerned, this idea isn't even half as credible as the first. To assume that every single one of the many editors out there misrepresented your statement would require a pretty high level of paranoia.
I'm giving you some benefit of the doubt, and assuming that your intentions were a bit more benign - let's say you really meant you'd be buying and using x86 workstations for most of your work, and treating ppc as a secondary target rather than your main focus. If that's the case, the fact is that your words and tone did not accurately convey your intent.
Or perhaps you wrote while angry, or frustrated, and later changed your mind. That's understandable - it happens to all of us from time to time.
You need to understand the fact that continuing to blame others for this misunderstanding is not helping your case or your cause. In the eyes of many in the community, you are damaging your own credibility as well as that of the project you represent. The best damage control you could possibly do right now would be to simply admit that you misspoke, or that you changed your mind. No one believes otherwise anyway, and your continuing denials are the reason the issue keeps coming up.
Lost: Sig, white with black letters. No collar. Reward if found!
Darwin and OS X should be merged. Unless I'm missing something here you're not getting the idea of what Darwin is and what it's role in OS X is. Darwin is OS X. If you're running Darwin your running part of OS X. There is no merging to be done as they are for the most part the same thing. OS X adds loads of features and functionality through the GUI, but Darwin is the core of OS X. Apple has a nice picture showing it here: http://www.apple.com/macosx/technologies/
Tim Smith - Ramblings from Nerd Land
I am unwilling to compromise the truth of the matter, which is that the Distribution was misrepresented not be me, but by the factitious headline at MacSlash, a simple lie. If it were not for that misreport, this conversation would not be taking place.
It is no surprise that such a sensational headline was picked up by other sites. There are many possible reasons for this, but we clearly live in times when lies are often repeated and amplified by many in the press. It is also no surprise that corporate media outlets did not pick up the story, despite Apple's stock drop ;-}. Real damage control means squashing falsehood.
Regards,
proclus
http://www.gnu-darwin.org/