RFID Will Stop Terrorists?

W33dz writes "Retailers and manufacturers around the world are enamored with the new radio frequency identification, or RFID, devices. The problem? What about when a thief or the police want to find out what you have in your house? Oddly enough, according to a Wired magazine article, the United States' largest food companies and retailers will try to win Dept of Homeland Security approval for radio identification devices by portraying the technology as an essential tool for keeping the nation's food supply safe from terrorists. This will give them blanket immunity from all law suits related to the product."

Comments

Article has wrong focus

[corebreech]

The danger isn't in criminals scanning your home to see what you have, but rather the government installing/having access to scanners in public places that will allow them to track your movements.

Obviously, these things aren't just going to be attached to foodstuffs. They'll be used in clothing and other personal effects that you'll carry with you at all times.

The article fails to mention this. Frankly, the article reads like the sort of propaganda piece the industry would put out.

Re:Article has wrong focus

[chill]

Thank you. Is refreshing to see that there are people out there who realize the fundimental problem with government doing ANYTHING is that it takes inneumerable signatures, and approvals before it goes forward. The whole process is more bloated than an MS product.

But once all those signatures ARE in place, all it takes is one bored tech to browse through the system. It happens all the time at the IRS -- bored employees checking the financial statements of celebrities, friends and enemies. Cops doing intensive background checks on their ex-girlfriends, etc.

Government initiative are like a massive boulder. A bitch to get moving, but once it is going almost impossible to stop.

Re:Article has wrong focus

[MunchMunch]

Chiiilll man.

I think the article sounds pretty skeptical to me. Title is "Claim: RFID Will Stop Terrorists"--already they're distancing themselves from that assertion. In fact, I'd say the article is pretty cut & dry in saying "RFID companies are trying to speciously use the issue of terrorism to push privacy-eroding RFID into nationwide use."

No Supprise.

[Irvu]

Having watched the SSSCA (now CBDTPA) run through the paces this makes perfect sense. If you have a bill that you want to sell, wrap it in the current craze so that anyone who passes it can claim that "they have worked on X" where X is the issue dujour.

The way the game is played.

hmmm.

[garcia]

With Ridge's approval for RFID, the food and drug companies and retailers hope to win over a wary public. They also may get legal protection under the Safety Act of 2002 -- a tort-reform law that offers blanket lawsuit protections to makers of antiterrorism devices, should those devices fail during a terrorist attack.

What major backlash is coming from the "weary public"? I have said this a billion times before. No one outside of our geek culture has any idea what this is. If it's not on Network TV's latest reality show, it's not real. I am too lazy to find my other posts about my attempted discussions with co-workers about their privacy being invaded with Patriot I and II and how they look at me as if I am speaking Greek. "You mean you do something other than watch Paradise Hotel?" (this isn't a slight exaggeration).

People have NO FUCKING clue what is going on in the world around them. I deal w/100's of people daily who freely give out their SSN to me to look up their records. I specifically ask if they know their student ID first (even though it's a unique identifier, it's not as bad as just throwing out your SSN everywhere) and people just utter, "uhhh, no, but I know my SSN!"

So if people are so willing to just give up their nationally unique identifier, you really think that they are paying attention to RFIDs? Go outside of your cube and ask any non-geek, "do you know what an RFID and how it impacts you personally?" or possibly, "do you know what the Patriot Act is?" I guarantee that they won't have a clue what an RFID is and they will say something like "do you also talk in letters?" and they will seriously believe that the Patriot Act is something having to do with the military giving missles to another country (if they are even THAT clueful).

Post your results here please, I am seriously interested if this is just a localized phenominon here where I live (my gf, her co-workers, my friends, and my co-workers are 100% clueless when it comes to anything privacy related), I would like to know what the rest of the non-geek world sees.

Re:hmmm.

[garcia]

you are not so much smarter than everyone else that you are the only one who gets it

I want you to show me where in my post I said that I was?

I want you to get a clue, and re-read and then re-think what you said. Obviously you are trolling.

What I did say was that NO ONE PAYS ATTENTION to this stuff. No one reads anything outside of the sports section and the front page. No one is scouring the net looking for what information they can find about what is going on "behind the scenes".

People these days want to watch their "reality TV" a "escape reality" (I have heard people say that too many times not to laugh).

They want to ignore what is really out there and would rather be forcefed a bunch of made up, scripted, bullshit on network/cable TV.

I might not be smarted, but I am certainly more informed and more concerned (and rightly so) of anything that might infringe on the anonymous past we had.

Re:hmmm.

[Travoltus]

[populus Romanus] qui dabat olim imperium, fasces, legiones, omnia, nunc se continet atque duas tantum res anxius optat, PANEM ET CIRCENSES"

"The people who had once bestowed commands, consulships, legions, and all else now longs eagerly for just two things, bread and circus games."
- Juvenal

Re:hmmm.

[ScrewMaster]

This comes under the heading of the "so what did you expect" department. Other national populations may be different, but we are so complacent here in the "world's only remaining superpower" that we don't want to hear anything that might upset our delicate emotional applecarts. Forget anything that might take research and some actual thinking. To be honest, the whole flapdoodle over 9/11 just astonishes me. The average Israeli or Palestinian citizen wouldn't have been particularly bothered by the attack, at least not on a personal threat level. Collectively, neither of those two societies would have allowed their entire economies to tank over a single terrorist attack. We, on the other hand, completely overreacted, have allowed the government to pass numerous Draconian laws in the name of anti-terrorism, willingly kissed our privacy good bye (if we even saw it leave) and generally behaved like headless chickens. Frankly, I'm not real impressed with how we handled ourselves in the aftermath of September 11th.

The only thing we have to fear, is fear itself.

RFID tags

[ihummel]

Any electronic marking device that isn't removed when I buy the item is an outrageous violation of the privacy of my home. I can understand tags being used to prevent shoplifted, or to somehow safeguard against tampering, but they really need to be removed by the store at purchase, easily removeable by the end consumer, or at least able to be turned off in such a way that they cannot be turned on again remotely.

Let's think this through

[WheelDweller]

Everyone's up in arms about identifying things we buy, and I'm sensative to that. I have no 'good ole boy' network that I fence diamonds through from Rio, no drug involvement, and nothing that I couldn't account for, standing in front of my Mom...so as long as the information is correct, I have nothing to worry about tracking.

But the uncertainty comes in them getting it wrong; one byte's difference might be all it takes to identify me as someone else, and that, for me, causes the stress.

There's one thing we have to remember here, though: we're on a mission. It has a defined ending, but we're too far away to make sense of the roadmap. Orwell. Revelation. Pick one.

Let's say that all the money from the lobbyists falls down a rathole and mutes every advocate on the side of RFID. Do you really think that a capitalist system is going to deny a technology that could, and probably will, save them millions of dollars?

No, I don't have an answer to this worrysome decision. But If I did, it would probably include a lot of 'getting along' with the RFIDs, and an equal amount of "they should have a warrant to CHECK my id's.

Just some food for thought.

I design RFID stuff

[lcsjk]

I am presently designing to use RFID to help keep foods safe. RFID for foods, especially meats,will include time, temperature and bacteria sensors. As for the tracking issue, there has already been enough outcry about Bennetons attempt to put hidden RFID in clothing that they had to resend the idea. (RFID JOURNAL) We are aware that there are privacy problems and no-one wants to have things that allow tracking in the home or other areas. Right now, the trend/plan is to kill tags at the cash register when the item is purchased. You may have noticed that that is already being done to enable you to leave the store without setting off an alarm.

Re:I design RFID stuff

[ewhac]

Right now, the trend/plan is to kill tags at the cash register when the item is purchased. You may have noticed that that is already being done to enable you to leave the store without setting off an alarm.

Uh huh, right.

Assuming the RFID has a globally unique serial number in addition to a UPC code, then all that has to happen at the register is for that serial number to be marked as, "purchased." Then when you walk out the door, the computer sees the serial number, looks it up in the database and sees that it's been purchased, and doesn't sound the alarm. A software-only solution that's much more "cost-effective" than designing the extra circuitry for a killable RFID.

It also has the added "benefit" of allowing the retailer to scan the cloud of RFID numbers coming off you as you enter the store (or even as you stroll past the entrance), thereby triggering special discounts or incentives ("We're having a special on shirts that match those pants you're wearing.").

In effect, what you're working on will afford unprecedented snooping powers to government agencies as well as corporate entities (who, unlike government agencies, don't even have to pretend to be accountable). And, of course, it will do absolutely nothing to improve public safety.

Schwab

I don't follow your logic

[corebreech]

So because the government isn't competent, we should allow them access to our whereabouts in real-time?

Isn't their being incompetent actually an argument for their not having access to this information?

Since terrorists don't tend to buy lots of ...

[burgburgburg]

typical consumer items (storing up their money for explosives, plane tickets, guns, etc.), sending government vans to scan peoples residences for items like consumer electronics, sneakers, new furniture and the like would be an effective way of pinpointing the terrorists among us.

And even if they are technically not terrorists, they are an impediment to the recovery that the administration keeps declaring is happening any day now. Which is practically as bad as being a terrorist. Maybe worse. Either way, Hello Guantanamo Bay!

Two Issues

[saintjab]

I only have two major issues with this proposal. One, is that in no uncertain terms, this is a direct violation of human privacy rights, and is an open invitation for the powers that be to 'spy' on every facet of our lives. Second, because of the way they are going about getting this legislated (under the guise of Homeland security) is absolutely criminal. This is exactly how they got roving phone taps, and illegal searches, pushed right back under our noses. For the sake of our own "safety". Yeah right. I would rather worry about the terrorist trying to attack us, than the terrorist government trying to *cough* protect us! This is just plain wrong. -just my opinion.

This is a surprise to you?

[John Jorsett]

Post your results here please, I am seriously interested if this is just a localized phenominon here where I live (my gf, her co-workers, my friends, and my co-workers are 100% clueless when it comes to anything privacy related), I would like to know what the rest of the non-geek world sees.

You sound like this is some sort of surprise. Well, it isn't to me; people are clueless in general. Huge swaths of humanity don't know how their car works, which century the Civil War was fought in, that the sun is a star, what the hell the politician for whom they're voting stands for, who the Secretary of State is, or any of a myriad of other things that don't impact their day-to-day lives. They think John Edwards can actually talk to the dead, "government money" is unlimited, and that space aliens are making those crop circles. Why should they be any better on the subject of Patriot I and II?

Re:Its a global problem

[gweihir]

Clueless people are a global problem. They are part of why we loose our rights and freedoms at a blindingly fast pace these days..

Not a new phenomenon and democracy does only help so far. After all Hitler was voted into office. All it took was a stalemate between the other powers, a talent for making speeches and the right promises.

Make no mistake, people: Any democratic government can be replaced by a totalitarian one if the voters are blind for a decade or two. Signs aof this happening: Constitutional and civil rights are suspended for some people (the jews and other "undesirables"), a drive for war together with a hugely inflated national self image ("tausendjaehriges Reich", "am deutschen Wesen soll die Welt genesen"), surveilance of individuals is intensified ("Blockwart", the GeStaPo),...

Look for these signs in your society today and if you find them, act against it democratically as long as that is still possible. Alternatively be sorry tomorrow.

Re:RFIDS are not invincible

[windchill2001]

The one part of the RFID protocol that I don't know is weither all tags attached to boxes of whole wheat cheerios will respond with the same number. If they do, they can not provide a unique number to track a person. They can only tell that the signal coming back is from an RFID tag from a box of cheerios.

Sorry to tell you this, but even if they are as general as just identifing a Box of Ceral, or a Blue Hat, White Gap Shirt, Old Navy Carpentar Jeans, and Hanes briefs. The Combination of these seemingly generic ID come together to create a very unique Indentifier.

What are the chances that a whole lot of people are goign to be wearign the same combination of RFIDs.

Re:Any skepticism? Anywhere? Bueller?

[gr0nd]

If there range is long enough to be activated in a warehouse, then the range is at least 30 feet (floor to ceiling). Even at a range of 10 feet, that will be enough to cover the entrances of most public places (airports, train stations, etc). I easily see these becoming as ubiquitous as video surveillance is today.