Linux Hits the Road

car video guidance by bryanthompson · 2003-08-10 17:39 · Score: 3, Interesting

I've been wanting to build a system that'd use cameras to find the lines on the road and keep my car between them. Now GPS would probably be an easier way to guide a car down the road, but i'd still like to see if it's possible, safe, and reliable.

Re:car video guidance by HBI · 2003-08-10 17:55 · Score: 4, Interesting

I have often dreamed of a system whereby I could have four missiles stored in the quarter panels of my car. They would be vertical launch tubes with caps painted the same color as the car, to be less conspicuous.

At the appropriate moment, I could press a steering-wheel mounted firing button to launch the missile. The missile would launch, locate the double yellow line in the middle of the road, and track it until it found the person blocking traffic. It would then break left till it circled around, slightly above traffic levels, do a pop-down maneuver, and lay into a slight up-angle as it strikes the driver's side rocker panel of the offending vehicle, knocking it off the road.

Unfortunately, I don't believe the kinetic energy imparted by a small missile of the 50 lbs variety can actually do that to a 2 ton SUV (it's a given that someone in an SUV is blocking traffic. Ok, maybe a minivan). But I can dream, can't I?

In the process of thinking about this, I realized a couple things that may be of interest to you. First, not all roads have the same kinds of painted lines. Some have shoulder marks. Some have buzz strips. Some have single yellow lines, and some have double. Some have single yellow lines with a dashed line on the other side (signifiying a passing lane). Assuring an optical sensor would be able to digest all these differing inputs would be challenging, to say the least.

Also, what happens when a road has a middle passing lane with double yellow lines, dashed on the inside? Those confuse human drivers, I can guarantee an optical sensor would not be happy with that.

What about turn lanes? NJ is famous for those stupid jug handles. Obviously a 'turn/go straight' decision would have to be made. But what happens when the primary road turns slightly at the point of the turn lane? Some interesting behavior of your automated system could result.

I also doubt that GPS has the resolution to actually handle driving down a road. The promised CPE is big enough that you could ram into a telephone pole at just about any time.

This is a really tough problem. I ultimately think that a passive response device along the lines of an RFID would be necessary to keep vehicles travelling in the correct direction. These would need to be installed along all road surfaces. For those which aren't equipped, we'd be stuck with the current method.

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You know it's late... by kgarcia · 2003-08-10 17:39 · Score: 5, Funny

Does it also map roadkill streaks?

BFD by hazman · 2003-08-10 17:43 · Score: 5, Funny

Short version: the cost has fallen from $1.2 million Australian to $850,000. Not bad..."

So what. So they saved $36.83US. What's the big deal?

best line by b17bmbr · 2003-08-10 17:43 · Score: 4, Funny

It was expected that the solution would be one involving Windows and written in Visual Basic...I don't think that I would have undertaken a task like this, where a computer is on the road, using anything but a robust operating system.

hey steve, start booking that flight!!!

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Multiple FireWire cameras under Linux? by Animats · 2003-08-10 17:45 · Score: 5, Informative

I'm amazed they got that to work. The FireWire hot-plugging support in Linux is a mess, doesn't handle the hard cases, and needs a complete redesign. Camera support is ugly, with a wierd interface between the application and the driver.

(I wrote FireWire camera support for QNX, and looked at the Linux code to see how to do some things. It didn't help much.)

(Windows support for FireWire is painful in a different way. It's incredibly complex, and has far too much kernel code, to allow for DRM. And the Video for Windows retrofit for FireWire is flakey.)

Penguin by olderchurch · 2003-08-10 17:46 · Score: 3, Funny

I like the title of the pictures:
The penguin road patrol

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Disclaimer: This opinion was created without the use of any facts

But where will this technology go from here? by cvk · 2003-08-10 17:47 · Score: 5, Interesting

This high-speed video capture is definitely the way to go for a first step, but of course the situation will be hugely improved when all that data can be taken back to the lab an scanned for drivability by software instead of by human brainpower.

Perhaps when the sun is low shadows would be cast over potholes that would lead to lower temperatures inside the crater than on the surface of the road. That would make infrared cameras an obvious choice for picking out the cold-bottomed potholes.

Or perhaps a rear vehicle could shine a light at an acute angle to the ground that would turn potholes into shadowy pits for easy detection by a forward vehicle on the other side of the pothole?

So many possibilities. (So many challenges!)

Re:But where will this technology go from here? by ColaMan · 2003-08-10 18:32 · Score: 3, Funny

Or perhaps a accelerometer input on an axle to register potholes. Actually , a pretty good gauge of road surface (gravel size etc) could be sensed with a decent accelerometer, as long as your tyres are fairly well pumped up.

(Car hits pothole - ka-THUNK!!!!)

Computer : Crikey! Didja feel that!?! Stone the flamin' crows, who was the bushwhacker that built this goat-track? Strewth!!

(Computer makes note of position for future reference.)

That way, subtle potholes (eg small depressions in road with no sharp edges) could be picked up fairly well.

And I hold the patent for "a method for use of Australian Slang to accurately measure and describe road defects", so no getting any ideas ;-)

--

You are in a twisty maze of processor lines, all alike.
There is a lot of hype here.
Re:But where will this technology go from here? by EvanED · 2003-08-10 18:55 · Score: 2, Interesting

That misses the potholes you don't run over directly with your wheels.

Linux not the answer by DerekLyons · 2003-08-10 17:49 · Score: 5, Interesting

Actually reading the article shows that Linux is incidental to the 'breakthrough'. The improvement comes from video processing software, not from the operating system of the computers that perform the processing.

Re:Linux not the answer by pc486 · 2003-08-10 18:52 · Score: 4, Informative

Well, the project manager Viner thought that the project would be based on Windows but after talking to Dr. Tim Ferguson, Viner let Ferguson base it on Linux. Viner was so impressed with the way that Linux preformed the video capture and monitoring that "The experience has made Viner a firm Linux convert. 'The office is moving over to Linux and we are looking at getting some form of network-attached storage for our clients,' he said."

And Ferguson said it best at the end of the article: "Development using open source software means the developer is totally in charge. You can do what you like, and customise things to your own needs. There are downsides, like the problems I faced with the firewire drivers. But then you'll generally find that you are not alone in this; there will be others to contribute little bits of knowledge until the jigsaw is complete."

So to say that Linux is "incidental" is a little bit of an understatment.

This is a newspaper article?!? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-08-10 17:50 · Score: 4, Interesting

A newspaper article about Linux that backs up its claims with details, has not one hint of FUD.

Soeriously now, an nwspaper article that mentions
limitations in the firewire drivers.

I mean the readers are expected to know what drivers, RAM, firewire, is.

They call Linux robust and hint that windows isn't.

There is no catch!!!

Now this is unbelievable!!
This must be a hoax article.

You don't really get stories like this in the newspaper

favorite comment by skydude_20 · 2003-08-10 17:50 · Score: 4, Funny

just to make sure we all understand the proper terminology:
the road ahead (what is technically called the pavement)

--
Jesus saves souls and redeems them for valuable cash prizes

sweet advert for OSS... by cubal · 2003-08-10 17:51 · Score: 5, Insightful

And, surprisingly honest. I'm quite impressed with how honest they were about the problems they faced.

And that's where OSS evangelism has to happen... showing that OS is better even with its problems, not that proprietary is worse and OS is perfect. Good for them :)

I use linux... by seanadams.com · 2003-08-10 17:51 · Score: 4, Insightful

... but this artice is pretty ridiculous:

"My experience with Windows is limited. I have been a Linux user since 1993 and I have considerable experience in programming in that environment," Ferguson said. "In any case, I don't think that I would have undertaken a task like this, where a computer is on the road, using anything but a robust operating system."

I mean, is it *really* that much harder to grab some video in Windows vs Linux? Having never programmed in Windows, perhaps someone can enlighten me, but I would expect that software like this is 99% image processing, and the choice of OS makes little or no difference. I can understand, all thing being equal, using the OS you're more comfortable with... but jesus they make it sound like Linux saved the day here, when that's their only argument.

We always make fun of the retarded M$-funded cost-of-ownership studies. How about posting some stories that show the REAL benefit of OSS in everyday applications?

Re:I use linux... by OzJimbob · 2003-08-10 17:57 · Score: 2, Insightful

That's not their only argument. As was highlighted further along in the article, putting this system together on Windows would have meant purchasing expensive proprietary softare. In Linux: this wasn't necessary. Hence, the $400,000 saving. Cost savings are potentially more important than any "advantage" either OS might have had in terms of performance or stability.

--
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Re:I use linux... by tftp · 2003-08-10 18:01 · Score: 3, Insightful

Generally speaking, *anything* in Windows costs you 10x more LOCs. For example, in Linux a simple concat() call does the job. In Windows you have to use CreateFile() with about 10 parameters, and some of those parameters are mind-boggling structures (like SECURITY_ATTRIBUTES) that must be created and initialized using separate API calls.
So indeed, in Windows you pay for layer upon layer upon layer of cruft. Once you are done, it works - but it takes a rocket scientist to get there.
With regard to video capture, in Linux you can do this:
$ cat videodata.raw
and it will give you some sort of raw video frames that you can easily process later. In Windows you first need to learn about 10 layers of software, each totally different, that allow you (in theory) to access the device. DirectX would be your first stop.
Re:I use linux... by edwdig · 2003-08-10 18:05 · Score: 3, Interesting

> I mean, is it *really* that much harder to grab some video in Windows vs Linux?

Although I've never tried video programming in Windows, I did try it in Linux. I ended up giving up fairly quickly, because although the individual V4L API calls are documented, there is no documentation stating which calls are necessary to get something to happen, or in what order you have to call the different functions. Getting something working involves a lot of trial and error. So I'm sure for video purposes, Windows would be easier to code.

Anyway, that completely misses the point of the line you quoted. The author chose Linux because he wanted an OS that wouldn't crash, not one that was easy to program for. If OS #1 provides an easy to use but crash prone API, and OS #2 provides a harder to use but stable API, #2 is the better choice.

Oh, and from my personal experience on lots of systems, Windows NT/2000/XP are terribly unstable when doing video capture. Both with consumer and professional grade capture devices.
Re:I use linux... by JKR · 2003-08-10 22:05 · Score: 3, Informative
In Windows you have to use CreateFile() with about 10 parameters, and some of those parameters are mind-boggling structures (like SECURITY_ATTRIBUTES) that must be created and initialized using separate API calls.
Or you can just leave those parameters as NULL, in which case (e.g. SECURITY_ATTRIBUTES) the call inherits the setting from the current process, just like it says in the MSDN. You do read the MSDN, right?
DirectX would be your first stop.
And your last stop, because RIGHT THERE IN THE DX8.1 SDK is code to do what you want:
- samples\Multimedia\DirectShow\Capture\AMCap
- sam ples\Multimedia\DirectShow\Capture\DVApp
- samples\ Multimedia\DirectShow\Capture\PlayCap
It took me about half a day to take this code and write a video capture app which we could hook into our FPGA dev board to demonstrate our product.
Yes, the Windows APIs are bigger and scarier than the equivalent UNIX APIs (where equivalents exist). The wealth of examples and development communities more than makes up for this, IMO.
Jon.

Re:Go figure by DerekLyons · 2003-08-10 17:52 · Score: 3, Insightful

Yeah, who would have thought that you could do something like this faster and cheaper with Linux. Perhaps NASA should take a lesson from Linux (e.g. it can be done faster, cheaper, and more reliably). ;)

Except that... It's faster, better, and cheaper because of improved video processing software. The operating system is incidental at best if not irelevant.

Unfortuante name choice... by drayzel · 2003-08-10 17:56 · Score: 3, Funny

"...LINServo to capture and rate the video footage and PMSVideo for clients to look at the finished footage..."

I have 6 sisters, PMSVideo is not something I'd like to see. It sounds like a really horrible fetish video.

But then again after reading other details...

"...so far generated about 1.3 terabytes of video footage..."
"...Due to limitations of the Linux firewire drivers, only 896 meg of RAM gets used..."
"...we took out the air-conditioner and added a second alternator..." YIKES!

I can maybe see why it was named as such!

~Z

MILLENIUM train by Anonymous Coward · 2003-08-10 17:59 · Score: 2, Interesting

Full day drive away in Sydney, we're suffering through the MILLENIUM train fiasco, technology supplied by, no surprise, a Microsoft Operating system.

aarrh!

Won't Make Much Difference... by Victa · 2003-08-10 17:59 · Score: 3, Interesting

VicRoads recently resurfaced the main road near my house... After 4 weeks working on a 400m (1/4 mile) stretch of road they went away. Leaving a worse surface than they had started with...

It's fairly typical of VicRoads to resurface perfectly good roads regularly (every 6-12 months) and the roads that are actually in bad shape get ignored, or made worse... I guess it must have something to do with where the money lives...

Re:Map makin'? by dattaway · 2003-08-10 17:59 · Score: 2, Funny

The problem with mapping potholes is that they are always in development. Patches often are applied, but they brake things. Sound familiar?

Re:RTOS? by Snoopy77 · 2003-08-10 18:03 · Score: 3, Interesting

Why aren't they using a RTOS?

Cause they don't need one. The shutters are triggered every metre (or 20 metres) and it works just fine.

Forgive me for asking such a silly question but did you actually read the article?

--
"She's a West Texas girl, just like me" - G.W Bush Iraqis

PMS? by poptones · 2003-08-10 18:05 · Score: 2, Funny

Pavement Management System? Penguin Movie System?

What an unfortunate acronym. Maybe when they get an editor put together they can call it STD Edit.

pity that they dont actually fix the roads by narkotix · 2003-08-10 18:06 · Score: 3, Interesting

have a look at this interesting article

--
We played dungeons and dragons for 3 hours.....then i was slain by an elf

moronic statement by Alien+Being · 2003-08-10 18:13 · Score: 3, Funny

"In any case, I don't think that I would have undertaken a task like this, where a computer is on the road, using anything but a robust operating system."

I realize that MSWindows has a zillion bugs, but I never knew that its bits could shake loose from going over bumps.

Re:Go figure by Anonymous Coward · 2003-08-10 18:13 · Score: 4, Funny

From the article:
"My experience with Windows is limited."

Were it not so, he would be able to join the rest of us in saying:
"My experience with Windows is limiting."

scary experience... by canning · 2003-08-10 18:18 · Score: 4, Funny

"It was a scary experience when we got to the South Australian border and had a power supply in the PC fail," said Arya.

Sounthern Australia border?? I would assume that all that water wouldn't be good for them either.

--
I love the smell of Karma in the morning

Re:scary experience... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-08-10 18:41 · Score: 2, Informative

The state to the left of Victoria is called South Australia. That is the border being referred to there.
Re:scary experience... by aspeer · 2003-08-10 19:28 · Score: 5, Funny

Yep, We are really original here. Once Queensland, Victoria, New South Wales, Northern Territory and Tasmania were named it must of been pretty close to beer o'clock. You can imagine the conversation:

Pioneer 1: So, we have two states left, one in the South and one in the West. Ideas ?

Pioneer 2: South Australia and Western Australia - now for *^%* sake lets hit the pub.

Pioneer 1: I like it. Lets go.

And they can keep them... by Spittles · 2003-08-10 18:26 · Score: 3, Funny

Linux mapping out our roads... SCO can probably lay claim to the speed-humps.

I can back this up.. by slackingme · 2003-08-10 18:27 · Score: 3, Funny

I'm actually one of the guys operating these things (and that suggested Linux in the first place.) It's awesome to see Linux keeping up with its "cheaper, faster, and better" attitude.

We're so impressed with Linux, we're running one rig at >110 with 2.6.0-test3. We'll save hundreds of thousands of dollars more. It even has 802.11g, as I'm typing this ri--*eerrrrrrrrrr* *sqqqqqueeeeeellll* *BOOM*

*BANG*

*CRASH*

CSIRO did it first... by quinkin · 2003-08-10 18:33 · Score: 4, Informative

The CSIRO system that I assume this is built on top of/based upon has been receiving awards since 1998.

See here for details.

Q.

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Insert Signature Here

Re:Go figure by Zemran · 2003-08-10 19:01 · Score: 2, Insightful

Except that... It's faster, better, and cheaper because of improved video processing software. The operating system is incidental at best if not irelevant.

Are you saying that the OS has no effect on the cost at all?

--
I love stacking my barbecues in the shed at the end of summer - you can't beat a bit of grill on grill action.

A pity, though by NaveWeiss · 2003-08-10 19:18 · Score: 3, Interesting

that searching their site for "linux" results in nothing.

--
Slashdot community, please notice: I am looking for a girlfriend.
Nave H. Weiss

Server slashdotted by stevenp · 2003-08-10 19:32 · Score: 2, Funny

Slashdot does regular surveys of the WEB servers in Victoria, Australia and other places, to determine where they need to be patched or otherwise repaired. The method (slashdotting) is simple and reliable and is also known as "brute force", DDOS and "who has more bandwith, you or we?".

I don't usually respond to anonymous cowards but.. by donscarletti · 2003-08-10 19:36 · Score: 3, Interesting

right after he admits having no knowledge of Windows systems. WTF?

He said he had limited, experiance, not no experience. And with bill gates confession that five percent of windows systems crash more than twice a day the chances of him knowing all two well the habit that MS systems have of failing

and don't tell me that KDE never crashes

Why would a survey device with the job of simply recording data use KDE, or for that matter GNOME, or even X? Somehow I seriously doubt that KDE's crashing effects this thing in the slightest.

Back in the days when I used KDE I saw it crash a number of times (not as frequently as most MS user interfaces I have used), but even if they were running KDE they cirtainly woudn't be stupid enough to have the data monitoring program running on top of it, and so therefore the mission critical application would continue to run perfectly. This is not as much of an option for windows setups when a UI failure or a falure of a non-essential subsystem can take down the entire system.

--
When Argumentum ad Hominem falls short, try Argumentum ad Matrem

Linux Saves the Day by awebus · 2003-08-10 19:55 · Score: 2, Funny

The revolutionary new pavement defect detecting system has also made waves with its bold choice of transportation. Pavement management services were originally going to use a 1997 Mitsubishi Pajero, however after consulting with the team's driver James Smith, they decided to go with an older model Holden Jackaroo.

"My experience with Mitsubishis is limited. I have been a Holden driver since 1993 and I have considerable experience driving their vehicles," Smith said. "In any case, I don't think that I would have undertaken a task like this, where a car is on the road, using anything but a familiar vehicle."

The state next door did this already... by B747SP · 2003-08-10 20:08 · Score: 4, Informative

The Australian CSIRO (Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Org.) got together with the NSW RTA (New South Wales (the state just north of Victoria, where this story's system came from) Roads and Traffic Authority) already hopped into bed together to come up with what sounds like, by all accounts, a technically better system...

The CSIRO's RoadCrack system is designed to find cracks in the pavement as small as 1mm wide, at 'highway speeds' of up to 105Km/h (65Mph).

The link doesn't say when this one was built, but it won awards in 1999, and was 'upgraded' in 2001.

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To be fair... by LemonYellow · 2003-08-10 22:16 · Score: 2, Informative

...you do have the choice to use either the CRT's open() function or Windows' OpenFile/CreateFile API calls; You don't have to use the more complicated one if you don't want the extra features. Most of the nastier parameters to CreateFile, such as that infrequently-used SECURITY_ATTRIBUTES structure, can be passed NULL to get default behaviour, so you don't have to set up the ACL on the file by hand if you don't want to.

I'm afraid it's the old rule coming into play here; Some complicated tasks require complicated APIs. On the other hand, MS could have stuck with *nix's user/group/everybody permissions and never required a CreateFile API. I'm sure the merits of ACLs are a bone of contention in some places.

Re:Go figure by drinkypoo · 2003-08-11 04:18 · Score: 2, Interesting

Also... it was chosen because of familiarity, not because of any features or cost comparison (You cannot call saying "Linux is free!" a cost comparison.) The author-to-be of the software said "I don't know shit about windows programming, but I've done a lot of work with Linux. Let's use that!"

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