Posted by
Hemos
on from the lets'-get-'em-together dept.
CainX writes "A comparison of five power supply units was posted recently. Anandtech has done a more complete review and examined 18 of the newest models in the plus 300 watt range." Power supplies tend to be one of those forgotten, but ever so important parts of machine construction.
What's the deal on the Antec 330W and P4?
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 3, Insightful
The dude writes that the 204W at 12V isn't enough for a P4 for he writes that ONLY for the Antec 330 and its 204W is more than most of the other PSes put out on that rail. It's crap like that that make the WHOLE thing suspect.
.
Re:What's the deal on the Antec 330W and P4?
by
drwtsn32
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· Score: 4, Informative
Agreed. IMO Antec makes some of the best power supplies. I use several Antec 330W ones at work in P4 systems.
PC Power and Cooling is very good, but their supplies are more expensive than Antec and are usually noisier.
Forgotten Power Supplies...
by
MosesJones
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· Score: 5, Funny
DOH! NOW I know why my home build PC isn't working. I also made the "often made" mistake of forgetting the Power Supply.
I'm glad to know this is a common mistake and not just me being stupid.
-- An Eye for an Eye will make the whole world blind - Gandhi
Re:Forgotten Power Supplies...
by
wukie
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· Score: 3, Interesting
When I built my PC, the power supply was the first thing I considered.
I was looking at building a Dual Athlon system on a Tyan motherboard with a few hard drives.
Essentially to cut a long story short, this combination requires a VERY HIGH power rating on the 5 volt rail. Some 550W power supply don't cut it, Enermax units below 400W were uncertain, while Antec's 350W or better are fine.
I went for an Antec 430W and their server case. 8 fans all attached to the "special" fan rail which adjusts their speed according to conditions keeps the computer humming.
Corsair ECC memory, HD's with 3 year warranty help with stability aswell.
Bottom line: Win2k - never had a BSOD (Blue Screen).Linux is obviously rock steady aswell.
I would have considered an Asus or Gigabyte motherboard. Kingston, Micron or Infineon RAM. Chieftec or Thermaltake case. BUT the power supply had to a very good one... i.e. ANTEC!
How much power is drawn from the wall?
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 2, Interesting
OK I'm no power supply geek, or electrician type either, but how much power is typically drawn from the wall in a pretty basic machine with a 400w power supply? A friend of mine is constantly being taken offline by his parents because they only let him use the computer for 2 hours a day due to power usage, and they're going on the wattage of the PSU in the machine he built. Personally. I think his machine (I think it's an 1800+ with one 7200RPM drive and a cd burner) would barely be using a third of that power.
Re:How much power is drawn from the wall?
by
wirelessbuzzers
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· Score: 5, Informative
No, that's a maximum rating. It doesn't draw nearly 400W if you aren't going to use all that, otherwise it would have to dissipate 200W on its own, which it certainly cannot.
-- I hereby place the above post in the public domain.
Re:How much power is drawn from the wall?
by
Detritus
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· Score: 4, Informative
Your friend's parents are mistaken. Just because the computer has a 400 Watt power supply doesn't mean that it is actually supplying that much power. It is probably considerably less. Think of it like the engine in a car. It may be capable of 150 horsepower but the average power output is much less.
-- Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
Re:How much power is drawn from the wall?
by
HidingMyName
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· Score: 3, Informative
The best way to measure is probably experimentally.
You could use a "Kill a Watt" device, that has
a combination of a male and female plug with an output for indicating how much power is being drawn.
You can get one for $40 U.S. or less.
Re:How much power is drawn from the wall?
by
Tragedy4u
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· Score: 2, Informative
I remember my boss having power concern issues with our equipment at our co-lo facility. We had a bunch of low end RS\6000 kit that had 800W power supplies in them, thats almost 7 amps which is half the usage of most vaccum cleaners! It didn't seem right, these were older machines and not very powerful they couldn't possibly use that much power, so we grabbed a multi-meter to check the usage. On boot up (the most expected), the usage spiked up to just above 1amp (filling the capacitors I imagine) then dropped quickly down to about.5 amps thats the equivalent usage of an average light bulb 60Watts.
Unless your friend is running a server with lots of SCSI hardware and doing very CPU and disk intensive activity all the time, I'd imagine that his power usage would sit around that ammount.
Re:How much power is drawn from the wall?
by
evilviper
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· Score: 3, Informative
There should be some device he could pick up at a local electornics store that could measure the amount of power the machine is using right?
Search froogle for "Kill A Watt". I've got one and it works surprisingly well. Good luck finding it at any stores nearby. It's even a bit of a rarety online. (Check solar or radio shops)
As I posted in a reply to his comment, my XP 2000+ is using up almost exactly 100watts, obviously that may vary a bit, but not much. Even an old 166MHz system of mine is using up about 60 watts. Interesting not though... Notebooks are FAR, FAR more power effecient. My 1.2GHz PIII Notebook with 10+" screen is only using up 19watts normally, and up to 32watts at moments with intensive processing or harddrive reads.
Re:How much power is drawn from the wall?
by
evilviper
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· Score: 2, Insightful
how much power is typically drawn from the wall in a pretty basic machine with a 400w power supply?
I have no idea, it could be from 1-400watts depending on the system.
A friend of mine is constantly being taken offline by his parents because they only let him use the computer for 2 hours a day due to power usage, and they're going on the wattage of the PSU in the machine he built.
Your friend's parents are idiots. Even if it was drawing 400watts, that could be recouped by just shutting a handful of lights off. 400 watts mean 4x100watt lightbulbs, or 7x60watt lightbulbs.
Better yet, they should try unplugging any devices that they aren't using, since most devices that are turned-off are still drawing 2-4 watts a piece 24 hours a day. Unplug 4 devices would recoup your friend's 2 hours of 'computer time'.
I think his machine (I think it's an 1800+ with one 7200RPM drive and a cd burner) would barely be using a third of that power.
Good guess. I happen to have tested my XP 2000+ (with a "Kill a Watt"), and it's drawing almost exactly 100watts.
Although, in addition to the computer, my 19" CRT monitor uses just under 60watts, so things begin to add-up. Maybe your friend can use power usage as an excuse to get a LCD, or even better, a notebook, which would use up about 25-35watts.
The results of the memory tests are amasing. The MTBF is about an hour on some of the power supplys. I'm not sure If I understand the setup but that is appauling. I expect a MTBF of about 100+ years not an hour.
Re:memory faults
by
dnoyeb
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· Score: 2, Informative
Weeks? really? Usually electronics fails in the first 24 hours, or its good to go. Especially where there are no moving parts.
I dont think the added time is a proper measure of increased reliability.
anyway, PSUs are overrated. I have used elchepos to the top quality units, and found differences in voltages, but not performance.
I buy for sound now. But of course I dont run any high performance / demand servers either.
Re:Power Supplys
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jpmkm
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· Score: 4, Informative
I'm thinking that's a UPS. Servers usually have redundant power supplies, not one for multiple machines.
Other types of power supplies?
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 2, Interesting
I would like to see a review of all of the tiny power supplies out there. Espically all of the P4 compliant ones. I think alot of PCs will soon not look like PCs at all and they will still need power.
Not quite as amusing as dansdata.com, but...
by
Junior+J.+Junior+III
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· Score: 5, Interesting
I really liked Anandtech's article. It actually had a lot of information and was fairly thorough -- measuring performance in a variety of ways, including not just output wattages but also noise levels, heat buildup, and cost.
A bit more explaining the basics of what each different voltage rail is for and why x-level of performance is important would have been helpful. Along with some more basic stats, such as how long the power cables actually are -- surely people still build full-tower PCs, don't they?
-- You see? You see? Your stupid minds! Stupid! Stupid!
External supplies
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 2, Interesting
All power supplies that I know of (not that much by the way) and all supplies tested are internal supplies. Since the powersupply is a major contributer to the internal heat of the box, and noise generation, wouldn't it make sence to make the power-supply external. It will decrease the temperature of the box, and by having it external you can place it at such a location where its noise is of least annoyance. You can even make them bigger, having larger (= less noisy) fans, and you could share them between boxes. What do you think?
Re:External supplies
by
ZorinLynx
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· Score: 4, Informative
No, this would be a bad idea. The cables from the power supply to the system would be carrying low voltages, and to provide power to the system at those voltages would require high current. This would cause voltage drop (and thus loss) in the cables.
When wiring up electrical systems, it is important to remember that your long runs should always be done with high voltage cable. For instance, from the wall to the power supply is 120V AC. Once the voltage is reduced, the runs need to be kept as short as possible, since every foot of cable loses substantially more power at the increased current required.
50 watts at 120 volts is less than half an amp. 50 watts at 12V is about 4A. Big difference. }:)
Re:External supplies
by
plcurechax
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· Score: 2, Insightful
When wiring up electrical systems, it is important to remember that your long runs should always be done with high voltage cable. For instance, from the wall to the power supply is 120V AC. Once the voltage is reduced, the runs need to be kept as short as possible, since every foot of cable loses substantially more power at the increased current required.
Well, you have to also factor in that AC travels much better than DC. That debate goes back to Edison and Telsa, and Telsa got it right. That's why your mains power (that comes out of your wall socket) is high voltage AC and not DC.
A minor reason is that I suspect that switching power supplies with long DC leads would act as unintential radiators (i.e. accidential antennas) at LF, 20-40kHz typically I believe in most computer power supplies. Thus they would be unable to get FCC approval due to the RF noise.
28 pages? Give me a break.
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 5, Informative
Not wanting to put a downer on things...
by
WIAKywbfatw
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· Score: 5, Insightful
...but it strikes me that these reviews of PSUs aren't as accurate as they should be. I'm not wanting to run the guys at AnandTech or elsewhere down (because, most of the time, they do a great job) but it strikes me that, when you look at PSUs (as opposed to CPUs, graphics cards or HDDs) then perhaps testing just one sample of each product is flawed.
After all, some of the measurements taken to distinguish good from bad were to the fifth significant figure. It strikes me that if you have to be that precise to differentiate between the winners and the also-rans then you've got to test more than one of each PSU - three would be a minimum, five or more would be better - and average out the test results to give you figures that are more representative of the quality of these products.
After all, not every Zalman ZM400A-APF is going to have a 12V min/max fluctuation of only 0.005V, and not every Enermax EG651P-VE FMA 550W is going to have a fluctuaction of 0.65V. Who knows, perhaps this was just a particularly good Zalman and a particularly bad Enermax? Testing more units means accurate results, which is a good thing.
I appreciate that testing three (or five, or however many) of each PSU means more work - you have to get x many more of each unit, test x many more times, process x much more data before averaging out your results - but, sometimes, I think it's warranted. Without wanting to get down on anyone, I'd like to suggest that, where called for, they try to source more units and test more thoroughly.
And, before people start flaming me for not knowing what I'm talking about, how much work is involved, etc, let me just say that I've run a review lab and I do know what I'm talking about, how much work is involved, etc. It's not a trivial amount but, sometimes, it is worth it.
(No doubt that's just a cue for half a dozen people to tell me where I'm wrong. I welcome objective criticisms but you can keep any childish flames.)
--
"Accept that some days you are the pigeon, and some days you are the statue." - David Brent, Wernham Hogg
Where's the EE beef?
by
AragornCG
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· Score: 5, Interesting
Great, there are more power supplies, but where are the oscilloscopes? Where is the detailed methodology for testing the cleanliness of the resultant power? They used some "stuff we found in our local university basement" to satisfy "you EE types". Oh, great. LIKE WHAT?
I'll take a smaller review with decent scientific methodologies, thank you very much. There's more to stability of a power supply than "interference testing" which reports an integer number of errors that could be caused by anything... What about the thermal testing... where was it measured? by what, the onboard mainboard thermistor, which is notably unreliable? Which "industry standard Chenming case" was it?
I really, really, really wish that these hardware sites would hire people with a decent understanding of the discipline of science - let alone engineering! - to write reviews. I could make MUCH more informed decisions.
Who, among home users, just buys the cheapest PSU they can find with enough power? Or is it just me? Some good reasons:
On my machine the CPU fan drowns out the noise of any PSU
With the way things are going, I'll need to buy a different PSU next time (ATX may die out, or everything will need 450W)
You can't see them, so they're not sexy
They make no difference to performance
Most of them last a reasonable time. I've been running different PCs for an aggregate of 11 years, and I've had one dead PSU in that time, costing 30UKP to swap out.
You could argue that people running servers should care even less, because they normally have redundant PSUs.
/me dons asbestos pants
-- When I am king, you will be first against
the wall.
Re:Altogether now...
by
_|()|\|
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· Score: 2, Interesting
On my machine the CPU fan drowns out the noise of any PSU
The power supply fan has always been louder than the CPU fan in my computers.
I had a generic 300 W PSU that I thought was too loud.
I replaced it with a PC Power & Cooling "Silencer" that was just as loud.
I later got an "ultra-quiet" QTechnology PSU from Quiet PC.
Little, if any, improvement.
Noise is important to some people, and it appears to be a difficult problem to solve.
Not too long ago, 300 W PSUs were considered extravagant, but it's easy to overtax one with a few disks, especially if the PSU isn't up to spec.
One of my computers rebooted sporadically, until I replaced the PSU.
Re:Altogether now...
by
Zathrus
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· Score: 3, Interesting
On my machine the CPU fan drowns out the noise of any PSU
I'm sorry... maybe you should look into quieter CPU fans in the future? Personally, the Zalman flower fans look very attractive to me... not in a visual sense, but an auditory one.
They make no difference to performance
They certainly do. Inadequate power supplies can cause system lockups and shorten lifespan of components due to improper voltage regulation... sure, that card can run with the 3.3V line at 3.6V, but you think that's not going to have some effects down the line?
Put enough components in a system and you'll find out fast how much PSUs matter. Stick in 4 or 5 HDs and your system may not even power up -- even with a 400W PSU. Why? Because that "400W" PSU only has a 10A 12V line, which is utterly inadequate to spin up more than one drive along with a modern P4 or Athlon. Realistically it shouldn't even be used then, because you're well over 80% draw -- at which point voltage irregularities and noise concerns become a bigger problem. That system lockup? Yeah... it was caused by your CPU going wacky. Which was caused by the power supply introducing so much noise that the motherboard voltage regulators couldn't filter it out and fed the CPU bad power.
You're talking about another $30 to get a decent PSU... it's not going to break the bank.
Personally, the Zalman flower fans look very attractive to me... not in a visual sense, but an auditory one.
They look very attractive in an auditory sense? I think I see what you're saying....
-- Graham "Teach" Mitchell, computer science teacher, Leander HS
No dB ratings?
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 4, Insightful
I'd expect anyone reviewing power supplies to have provided some analysis of the noise generated by them. Since that isn't the case here, I'll stick with the original source material (read "manufacturer's promotional literature") instead of Anandtech's promotional review.
Less clicking, at any rate.
As a requisite disclaimer for the "It's Just Fine For Me" folks: While it may be true that certain electronic components are being engineered to be quieter, it's still the case that manufacturers rarely advertise/publish noise levels. The fact that there is a booming cottage industry devoted to quieter replacement components is evidence enough that manufacturers haven't yet fully addressed the needs of computer owners who are starting to discover that their nagging headaches and frequent innability to concentrate is due in large part to that box under their desks.
Re:No dB ratings?
by
richie2000
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· Score: 2, Insightful
I'd expect anyone reviewing power supplies to have provided some analysis of the noise generated by them.
For anyone who thinks PS don't matter
by
plcurechax
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· Score: 4, Informative
I just built a new Athlon XP (2600+) based system, and the power supply was the most frustrated part to get working correctly. I bought a generic case with a 300W Pro-Power ATX power supply. It had useless regulations, the 12V rail measured at 12.8V with the system on and idle, and jumpted to 13.2V when running some math calculations that I use for stress testing (www.mersenne.org).
So I spent a Saturday trying to find a local computer dealer open that had any power supplies in stock. Most were sold out because of recent lightning storms (note: most didn't fail right away), anyhow about 2 hours of looking and driving I found a Codegen 300W ATX supply. It didn't setup off the SilentPC power alarms, but it failed the stress testing, with errors in about 1 hour of testing. The CPU temperature was fine (40-42 C) but I suspect the power wasn't clean which introduced memory or logic glitches.
Finally after a week, I got a ThermalTake 360W power supply and my system works fine.
So anyone who has an unstable system, it may not be all the fault of the OS, but poor or underpowered power supply.
When we remember about power supplies...
by
xyvimur
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· Score: 3, Interesting
"Power supplies tend to be one of those forgotten, but ever so important parts of machine construction..."
Here you can see why you should pay more attention when buying supply...
Card power requirements? Warning lights?
by
dpbsmith
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· Score: 3, Interesting
For as long as there have been micros, we have played the game of "by guess and by gosh."
Why doesn't every card and component in a system have a clearly marked indication of its power requirement?
And why don't power supplies issue unmistakable warnings when the system draws more power than the supply can reliably provide?
Every fuse and circuit breaker in a house has the amperage clearly marked on it, and so does every appliance.
Why can't the insides of our computers come up to the same standards as our toasters and washing machines? This isn't rocket science, this is simple arithmetic.
Just get a Mac
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 2, Funny
So you have decent memory which has been thoroughly tested, a hard disk drive which matches it's controller, no hot spots [espcially around the cpu,3D graphics card and northbridge], well sorted BIOS, no interupt conflicts, a decent OS and compatible drivers for each device, then yeah, it's probably the power supply.
Power Supplies Affect Stability
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 2, Informative
For you do-it-yourselfers:
Don't underestimate the importance of power supplies, nor assume because the box says "400W" that it really is, nor assume that any particular rail - +12V, +5V, +3.3V has the current you need. Sagging voltages on any rail can have mysterious effects that you will otherwise blame on your motherboard, the BIOS, memory, cards or the OS.
I was the victim of an underpowered power supply when I upgraded my motherboard, and of course, I blamed the motherboard. Of course, my suspicions were bolstered by the presence of a known defect in some of the boards having to do with a flaky overheating protection circuit. When I replaced the board with the same kind, directly from the manufacturer and it kept happening, I realized it must be something else.
I did a power resource calculation using the guide on the AMD site and viola, I was running my supply at 90% of capacity. A no-no. I upped the supply from 300W to 450W (a true 450W), haven't had any problems since.
ThinkGeek? You are an idiot.
by
rkz
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· Score: 2, Informative
If you buy from thinkgeek you are being severely ripped off, newegg has it 20$ cheaper.click here
Quality power can not be stressed enough...
by
Awptimus+Prime
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· Score: 4, Interesting
I used to buy whatever 450 watt CompUsa model I could get for $19.00. That was a big mistake.
After about 6 months use, I had one make a popping sound, then erupt in smoke. All I had in the box was dual 700 cpus, 6 scsi drives, 2 ide drives, cdrw, GF3, and a bunch of neon lights. During that time, the system would freeze up a lot, usually while compiling.
Basically 450 watts doesn't mean as much as the quality of components and how cloesly the manufacturer was willing to run them to the point of breakage.
I swapped out my burnt 450 watt for a Antec cool blue running at around 400 watts and my system is quieter and never locks up anymore.
When reading wattages of cheap PSU's remind yourself of audio equipment. Like when a brand like Sparkomatic or Jensen promises 1000 watts out of an amp only for it to sound like shiat and blow speakers. Meanwhile, a Bose amp of 75 watts would be generating more power overall and not be tearing your speakers up. The same game is played with PSU promises. They, the generic cheapies, never planned on anyone using all 450 watts of their equipment. These big number, low performance parts are meant for a consumer with a very basic system seeking comfort big specs.
I guess it reinforces 'You get what you pay for'.
Design Engineer, Power Supplies, Computers
by
lcsjk
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· Score: 5, Informative
As one who has spent some 16 years designing power supplies for computers and other devices, I found the article to be very weak in factual information. Power supplies have an actual efficiency of about 75%, and no better than 90%, no matter what brand, Efficiency varies with loading. Quick spin-up on hard drives takes about 5 times as much 12V power as is required for running, but little 5V change. The actual voltage needed by components is not nearly so critical as the amount of noise (ripple and "switching" noise. (These are switching power supplies.) The nearest thing to a noise measurement test was the memory test.
Output regulation is also dependent on the loading of the 5 volts or 3.3 volt outputs. Expect the 12 volts to follow the 5 volts as the processor and MB requires more or less computing power during operation. Some are independent, but most are not.
Things like temperature testing can be very meaningless. Most components are designed for operation at an ambient of more than 70 degrees Celcius. The switching transistors will produce the most heat, but a small capacitor setting downstream in the airflow may be the first long term failure. Probably input to output is the best indication.
Note also that the power supply fan sucks hot air from the PC and sends it over power supply components before exhausting to the outside air.
The one test I found most interesting was the memory test, and although I am not sure of the methods used, the results do indicate overall performance. (Yes, I have also designed memorys and been involved it testing of memory chips with walking ones and zeros and checkerboard patterns etc. Without knowing which row of memory transistors is adjacent to the one being used, pattern testing is basically meaningless except for one word at a time.
A few years ago I took a Sparkle (SPI) power supply and a Fortran power supply apart and the insides were identical - completely. Fortran was about $3 more in hundreds at the time. My guess is that they were made on the same production line. Are they the same or had one just been copied.
The power supply continuous output rating should be the one used when talking about a 300 watt power supply, not the power line rating.
Finally, audible noise. Bigger fans, lower speed, less noise. Fans mounted on the inside instead of near the back panel produce less noise. Fans blowing onto holes instead of through a circular guard produce more noise.
"Power supplies tend to be one of those forgotten, but ever so important parts of machine construction."
That's why they make an appearance on/. every ten days or so.
--
"People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
Be careful with "cheap" power supplies
by
m33p
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· Score: 2, Insightful
While you may never see any problems running PCs with cheap power supplies on a daily basis, they often suffer catostrophic failure after six months or more of use. I had one machine that ran flawlessly as my home server for over a year but one day when I was re-running power cables (exterior to the case) the power supply literally exploded when I powered the machien back up, destroying ever single component inside! Since I've started talking about this, I have found that something similar has happened to quite a number of people. And ever since, I have used nothing but higher quality power supplies.
BTW, the worst case was a guy who had build a large IDE raid box. He figured he didn't need backups because he had RAID and the likelyhood of losing two drives at the same time was pretty low -- or so he thought. When his PS blew, it took *all* of the drives (and all of his data) with it.
Can you say suck-o-rama? I knew you could...
Sounds like your power supply can't handle the inrush current for the start up of your hard drives and fans.
When motors start up they have to get over the standing still friction of the unit before they get over the hump of startup and then into the lower friction of a moving unit. I would put in a nice graph but slashdot won't let me.
What the graph looks like is there's a rise up to a peak. Doing an integration under the line to the peak gives you the force needed to get to the peak. This is the force needed to get to the object moving. The graph then falls down a fair ways, (maybe almost to zero it depends on the two materials being being rubbed together), and then the line stays steady, horizontally. This represents the force needed to keep the object moving.
This is about all I remember from College physics on friction. There's also some other things that require a high inrush current during startup. But motors are the biggest thing.
So when you rock your power switch just right you leave the motors running enough not to require the inrush current. Shut off power to the motherboard to force it to restart, but you don't leave the power off long enough to cause the power supply to go into suspend mode and turn off all the power to the system.
Probably the best thing to do is get a power supply that handles a larger inrush current then the current one. But there could be something else wrong with the system too, and I haven't built a system for close to 8 years and my knowledge might be a bit dated.
-- Software Engineer & Writer of Military Science Fiction and Fantasy
Blog: petermwright.com
Twitter: WrightPeterM
Bad power supply tests
by
Animats
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· Score: 4, Informative
That article was very lightweight. They didn't do tests that any competent QA shop would do.
Tests they didn't do, and should have:
Look up the UL certification for the unit, and check that the unit actually passed UL testing. Many power supplies, especially from China, have forged UL certifications. (UL had about 80 shipments seized at U.S. Customs last year for this.) UL's test include surviving a dead short and not catching fire for any single component failure. Uncertified power supplies are almost always the ones that catch fire.
Checking the UL database is easy. Check any power supplies you have, and if the E-number isn't in the database or doesn't match the unit, report it to UL and have a serious talk with the seller.
Test the power supply with input voltages at the bottom and top of the rated range, and measure the regulated outputs. This is basic stuff.
Test the power supply in a hot box, with temperature maintained at the high end of the specified temperature range. This should be done with the unit loaded up to its rated load, and should continue for at least 72 hours. This, again, is a basic QA test.
Those are all basic. The "memory test" was interesting. That's an indication that these power supplies differ in their ability to sink RF noise coming in on the power rails. That, too, needs to be tested.
Nothing Anandtech did seemed to use a 'scope, let alone a spectrum analyzer.
Think carefully about paying more.
by
Futurepower(R)
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· Score: 2, Informative
More and more companies are basing their business plans on taking advantage of the overclocker, gamer, case modder, or PC enthusiast who doesn't have much technical knowledge. These have slick sales literature and fancy graphics. They also may have no one at the company who knows or cares about the technical details of the product. I feel qualified to say this because, back when I was an electrical engineer, I have designed power supplies and industrial power control devices.
"Monster cables" won't give you better audio than cheap wire of the same gauge. Similarly, paying a lot of money for a power supply is very unlikely to get you any difference in computer performance, provided you buy a quality low-cost supply.
We pay $26 wholesale for our 350 Watt KingWin Kwi-350W power supplies, and they are fine. Froogle.google.com says they can be bought retail for $32. The AnandTech article discusses the Kingwin KWI-450, which they say costs $95. Why didn't they review the supply from Kingwin that is 1/3 the cost?
One guess is that the entire AnandTech article is a hidden Directron.com advertisement. Maybe Directron.com does not want you to know that you don't need to pay more, and that you will derive no benefit from giving Directron more profit.
The AnandTech article says, "Directron.com let us pick one of every new power supply off their shelves in order to put together a sample of 18 of the newer power supplies on the market right now."
The article says about the Kingwin KWI-450WABK, "We received our quad fan Kingwin supply well before the TTGI units had hit American soil. The unit was well received in the lab, but as we noticed when the TTGI units arrived, practically identical in construction. TTGI and Kingwin obtain their components from the same manufacturers in Taiwan."
"Practically identical" does NOT mean identical. Directron's 350 Watt TTGI TT-350SS is $28.99. It looks a lot like the KingWin 350 Watt supply, but is different; the TTGI supply does not have most of the labels that are on the KingWin supply, for example.
Look below at that link for what Directron says about their warranty: "Customer is responsible for returning defective products including DOA due to manufacturer unless testing is paid before shipping." DOA means "Dead on Arrival". Very clearly, Directron says that they do NOT stand behind their products.
Directron's warranty may be translated as, "If what we ship you doesn't work, tough luck, don't bother mentioning it to Directron, you are on your own, complain to the manufacturer, and pay the shipping costs to where the manufacturer is located, but we won't tell you in advance where that is, because you might buy directly from the manufacturer." Only if you pay more will Directron stand behind what they ship. So the true cost is not $28.99, unless you want to take your chances.
I suspect, and I have plenty of evidence, that when companies ask you to pay more for testing if you want a warranty from them, you get absolutely no testing. What you get is only the right to return a DOA unit to them.
Notice something else about that Directron page. The price is an image, not text, from a different server, yimg.com. Does anyone know why they do that? I don't.
There is plenty of evidence that the people at AnandTech have little technical understanding. Maybe the site makes money by doing things their advertisers want, which may be different from what is good for you.
Yes but most computers do not have ECC nor parity on their memory. ECC might protect you and parity will simply allow you to crash out safely. Unless it was dont care memory this error would cause a failure of some form. I have run memory tests with quite dodgey memory, power supplies, fans etc. over periods of many hours and these errors do normaly not occur. Unless you went out to buy eec memory for your computer because you are scared these sort of error might occur over the lifetime of your machine then you are not protected from them. I think the case is you dont know what youre talking about. The and coming along and looking like a fool stating that the moderators are stupid for also being cauteous of the results presented doesnt help. You seem to be very angry that a public forum is composed of people expressing their "wrong" opinions but at the same time you are happy to troll away on them. You you dont agree then dont read it. Unless you spent several hours working out what "amasing" means then maybe you should lay of the coffee.
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The dude writes that the 204W at 12V isn't enough for a P4 for he writes that ONLY for the Antec 330 and its 204W is more than most of the other PSes put out on that rail. It's crap like that that make the WHOLE thing suspect.
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DOH! NOW I know why my home build PC isn't working. I also made the "often made" mistake of forgetting the Power Supply.
I'm glad to know this is a common mistake and not just me being stupid.
An Eye for an Eye will make the whole world blind - Gandhi
OK I'm no power supply geek, or electrician type either, but how much power is typically drawn from the wall in a pretty basic machine with a 400w power supply? A friend of mine is constantly being taken offline by his parents because they only let him use the computer for 2 hours a day due to power usage, and they're going on the wattage of the PSU in the machine he built. Personally. I think his machine (I think it's an 1800+ with one 7200RPM drive and a cd burner) would barely be using a third of that power.
The results of the memory tests are amasing. The MTBF is about an hour on some of the power supplys. I'm not sure If I understand the setup but that is appauling. I expect a MTBF of about 100+ years not an hour.
Mouse powered Chips, Open source Processors and Lego
I'm thinking that's a UPS. Servers usually have redundant power supplies, not one for multiple machines.
I would like to see a review of all of the tiny power supplies out there. Espically all of the P4 compliant ones. I think alot of PCs will soon not look like PCs at all and they will still need power.
I really liked Anandtech's article. It actually had a lot of information and was fairly thorough -- measuring performance in a variety of ways, including not just output wattages but also noise levels, heat buildup, and cost.
A bit more explaining the basics of what each different voltage rail is for and why x-level of performance is important would have been helpful. Along with some more basic stats, such as how long the power cables actually are -- surely people still build full-tower PCs, don't they?
You see? You see? Your stupid minds! Stupid! Stupid!
All power supplies that I know of (not that much by the way) and all supplies tested are internal supplies. Since the powersupply is a major contributer to the internal heat of the box, and noise generation, wouldn't it make sence to make the power-supply external. It will decrease the temperature of the box, and by having it external you can place it at such a location where its noise is of least annoyance. You can even make them bigger, having larger (= less noisy) fans, and you could share them between boxes. What do you think?
Single-page link.
...but it strikes me that these reviews of PSUs aren't as accurate as they should be. I'm not wanting to run the guys at AnandTech or elsewhere down (because, most of the time, they do a great job) but it strikes me that, when you look at PSUs (as opposed to CPUs, graphics cards or HDDs) then perhaps testing just one sample of each product is flawed.
After all, some of the measurements taken to distinguish good from bad were to the fifth significant figure. It strikes me that if you have to be that precise to differentiate between the winners and the also-rans then you've got to test more than one of each PSU - three would be a minimum, five or more would be better - and average out the test results to give you figures that are more representative of the quality of these products.
After all, not every Zalman ZM400A-APF is going to have a 12V min/max fluctuation of only 0.005V, and not every Enermax EG651P-VE FMA 550W is going to have a fluctuaction of 0.65V. Who knows, perhaps this was just a particularly good Zalman and a particularly bad Enermax? Testing more units means accurate results, which is a good thing.
I appreciate that testing three (or five, or however many) of each PSU means more work - you have to get x many more of each unit, test x many more times, process x much more data before averaging out your results - but, sometimes, I think it's warranted. Without wanting to get down on anyone, I'd like to suggest that, where called for, they try to source more units and test more thoroughly.
And, before people start flaming me for not knowing what I'm talking about, how much work is involved, etc, let me just say that I've run a review lab and I do know what I'm talking about, how much work is involved, etc. It's not a trivial amount but, sometimes, it is worth it.
(No doubt that's just a cue for half a dozen people to tell me where I'm wrong. I welcome objective criticisms but you can keep any childish flames.)
"Accept that some days you are the pigeon, and some days you are the statue." - David Brent, Wernham Hogg
Great, there are more power supplies, but where are the oscilloscopes? Where is the detailed methodology for testing the cleanliness of the resultant power? They used some "stuff we found in our local university basement" to satisfy "you EE types". Oh, great. LIKE WHAT?
I'll take a smaller review with decent scientific methodologies, thank you very much. There's more to stability of a power supply than "interference testing" which reports an integer number of errors that could be caused by anything... What about the thermal testing... where was it measured? by what, the onboard mainboard thermistor, which is notably unreliable? Which "industry standard Chenming case" was it?
I really, really, really wish that these hardware sites would hire people with a decent understanding of the discipline of science - let alone engineering! - to write reviews. I could make MUCH more informed decisions.
-Ben
You could argue that people running servers should care even less, because they normally have redundant PSUs.
/me dons asbestos pants
When I am king, you will be first against the wall.
I'd expect anyone reviewing power supplies to have provided some analysis of the noise generated by them. Since that isn't the case here, I'll stick with the original source material (read "manufacturer's promotional literature") instead of Anandtech's promotional review.
Less clicking, at any rate.
As a requisite disclaimer for the "It's Just Fine For Me" folks: While it may be true that certain electronic components are being engineered to be quieter, it's still the case that manufacturers rarely advertise/publish noise levels. The fact that there is a booming cottage industry devoted to quieter replacement components is evidence enough that manufacturers haven't yet fully addressed the needs of computer owners who are starting to discover that their nagging headaches and frequent innability to concentrate is due in large part to that box under their desks.
I just built a new Athlon XP (2600+) based system, and the power supply was the most frustrated part to get working correctly. I bought a generic case with a 300W Pro-Power ATX power supply. It had useless regulations, the 12V rail measured at 12.8V with the system on and idle, and jumpted to 13.2V when running some math calculations that I use for stress testing (www.mersenne.org).
So I spent a Saturday trying to find a local computer dealer open that had any power supplies in stock. Most were sold out because of recent lightning storms (note: most didn't fail right away), anyhow about 2 hours of looking and driving I found a Codegen 300W ATX supply. It didn't setup off the SilentPC power alarms, but it failed the stress testing, with errors in about 1 hour of testing. The CPU temperature was fine (40-42 C) but I suspect the power wasn't clean which introduced memory or logic glitches.
Finally after a week, I got a ThermalTake 360W power supply and my system works fine.
So anyone who has an unstable system, it may not be all the fault of the OS, but poor or underpowered power supply.
"Power supplies tend to be one of those forgotten, but ever so important parts of machine construction..."
Here you can see why you should pay more attention when buying supply...
For as long as there have been micros, we have played the game of "by guess and by gosh."
Why doesn't every card and component in a system have a clearly marked indication of its power requirement?
And why don't power supplies issue unmistakable warnings when the system draws more power than the supply can reliably provide?
Every fuse and circuit breaker in a house has the amperage clearly marked on it, and so does every appliance.
Why can't the insides of our computers come up to the same standards as our toasters and washing machines? This isn't rocket science, this is simple arithmetic.
"How to Do Nothing," kids activities, back in print!
So you have decent memory which has been thoroughly tested, a hard disk drive which matches it's controller, no hot spots [espcially around the cpu,3D graphics card and northbridge], well sorted BIOS, no interupt conflicts, a decent OS and compatible drivers for each device, then yeah, it's probably the power supply.
For you do-it-yourselfers:
Don't underestimate the importance of power supplies, nor assume because the box says "400W" that it really is, nor assume that any particular rail - +12V, +5V, +3.3V has the current you need. Sagging voltages on any rail can have mysterious effects that you will otherwise blame on your motherboard, the BIOS, memory, cards or the OS.
I was the victim of an underpowered power supply when I upgraded my motherboard, and of course, I blamed the motherboard. Of course, my suspicions were bolstered by the presence of a known defect in some of the boards having to do with a flaky overheating protection circuit. When I replaced the board with the same kind, directly from the manufacturer and it kept happening, I realized it must be something else.
I did a power resource calculation using the guide on the AMD site and viola, I was running my supply at 90% of capacity. A no-no. I upped the supply from 300W to 450W (a true 450W), haven't had any problems since.
If you buy from thinkgeek you are being severely ripped off, newegg has it 20$ cheaper.click here
There is no god
I used to buy whatever 450 watt CompUsa model I could get for $19.00. That was a big mistake.
After about 6 months use, I had one make a popping sound, then erupt in smoke. All I had in the box was dual 700 cpus, 6 scsi drives, 2 ide drives, cdrw, GF3, and a bunch of neon lights. During that time, the system would freeze up a lot, usually while compiling.
Basically 450 watts doesn't mean as much as the quality of components and how cloesly the manufacturer was willing to run them to the point of breakage.
I swapped out my burnt 450 watt for a Antec cool blue running at around 400 watts and my system is quieter and never locks up anymore.
When reading wattages of cheap PSU's remind yourself of audio equipment. Like when a brand like Sparkomatic or Jensen promises 1000 watts out of an amp only for it to sound like shiat and blow speakers. Meanwhile, a Bose amp of 75 watts would be generating more power overall and not be tearing your speakers up. The same game is played with PSU promises. They, the generic cheapies, never planned on anyone using all 450 watts of their equipment. These big number, low performance parts are meant for a consumer with a very basic system seeking comfort big specs.
I guess it reinforces 'You get what you pay for'.
As one who has spent some 16 years designing power supplies for computers and other devices, I found the article to be very weak in factual information.
Power supplies have an actual efficiency of about 75%, and no better than 90%, no matter what brand, Efficiency varies with loading.
Quick spin-up on hard drives takes about 5 times as much 12V power as is required for running, but little 5V change.
The actual voltage needed by components is not nearly so critical as the amount of noise (ripple and "switching" noise. (These are switching power supplies.) The nearest thing to a noise measurement test was the memory test.
Output regulation is also dependent on the loading of the 5 volts or 3.3 volt outputs. Expect the 12 volts to follow the 5 volts as the processor and MB requires more or less computing power during operation. Some are independent, but most are not.
Things like temperature testing can be very meaningless. Most components are designed for operation at an ambient of more than 70 degrees Celcius. The switching transistors will produce the most heat, but a small capacitor setting downstream in the airflow may be the first long term failure. Probably input to output is the best indication.
Note also that the power supply fan sucks hot air from the PC and sends it over power supply components before exhausting to the outside air.
The one test I found most interesting was the memory test, and although I am not sure of the methods used, the results do indicate overall performance. (Yes, I have also designed memorys and been involved it testing of memory chips with walking ones and zeros and checkerboard patterns etc. Without knowing which row of memory transistors is adjacent to the one being used, pattern testing is basically meaningless except for one word at a time.
A few years ago I took a Sparkle (SPI) power supply and a Fortran power supply apart and the insides were identical - completely. Fortran was about $3 more in hundreds at the time. My guess is that they were made on the same production line. Are they the same or had one just been copied.
The power supply continuous output rating should be the one used when talking about a 300 watt power supply, not the power line rating.
Finally, audible noise. Bigger fans, lower speed, less noise. Fans mounted on the inside instead of near the back panel produce less noise.
Fans blowing onto holes instead of through a circular guard produce more noise.
"Power supplies tend to be one of those forgotten, but ever so important parts of machine construction."
/. every ten days or so.
That's why they make an appearance on
"People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
BTW, the worst case was a guy who had build a large IDE raid box. He figured he didn't need backups because he had RAID and the likelyhood of losing two drives at the same time was pretty low -- or so he thought. When his PS blew, it took *all* of the drives (and all of his data) with it. Can you say suck-o-rama? I knew you could...
-p.
Sounds like your power supply can't handle the inrush current for the start up of your hard drives and fans.
When motors start up they have to get over the standing still friction of the unit before they get over the hump of startup and then into the lower friction of a moving unit. I would put in a nice graph but slashdot won't let me.
What the graph looks like is there's a rise up to a peak. Doing an integration under the line to the peak gives you the force needed to get to the peak. This is the force needed to get to the object moving. The graph then falls down a fair ways, (maybe almost to zero it depends on the two materials being being rubbed together), and then the line stays steady, horizontally. This represents the force needed to keep the object moving.
This is about all I remember from College physics on friction. There's also some other things that require a high inrush current during startup. But motors are the biggest thing.
So when you rock your power switch just right you leave the motors running enough not to require the inrush current. Shut off power to the motherboard to force it to restart, but you don't leave the power off long enough to cause the power supply to go into suspend mode and turn off all the power to the system.
Probably the best thing to do is get a power supply that handles a larger inrush current then the current one. But there could be something else wrong with the system too, and I haven't built a system for close to 8 years and my knowledge might be a bit dated.
Software Engineer & Writer of Military Science Fiction and Fantasy Blog: petermwright.com Twitter: WrightPeterM
Tests they didn't do, and should have:
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Look up the UL certification for the unit, and check that the unit actually passed UL testing. Many power supplies, especially from China, have forged UL certifications. (UL had about 80 shipments seized at U.S. Customs last year for this.) UL's test include surviving a dead short and not catching fire for any single component failure. Uncertified power supplies are almost always the ones that catch fire.
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Test the power supply with input voltages at the bottom and top of the rated range, and measure the regulated outputs. This is basic stuff.
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Test the power supply in a hot box, with temperature maintained at the high end of the specified temperature range. This should be done with the unit loaded up to its rated load, and should continue for at least 72 hours. This, again, is a basic QA test.
Those are all basic. The "memory test" was interesting. That's an indication that these power supplies differ in their ability to sink RF noise coming in on the power rails. That, too, needs to be tested.Checking the UL database is easy. Check any power supplies you have, and if the E-number isn't in the database or doesn't match the unit, report it to UL and have a serious talk with the seller.
Nothing Anandtech did seemed to use a 'scope, let alone a spectrum analyzer.
More and more companies are basing their business plans on taking advantage of the overclocker, gamer, case modder, or PC enthusiast who doesn't have much technical knowledge. These have slick sales literature and fancy graphics. They also may have no one at the company who knows or cares about the technical details of the product. I feel qualified to say this because, back when I was an electrical engineer, I have designed power supplies and industrial power control devices.
"Monster cables" won't give you better audio than cheap wire of the same gauge. Similarly, paying a lot of money for a power supply is very unlikely to get you any difference in computer performance, provided you buy a quality low-cost supply.
We pay $26 wholesale for our 350 Watt KingWin Kwi-350W power supplies, and they are fine. Froogle.google.com says they can be bought retail for $32. The AnandTech article discusses the Kingwin KWI-450, which they say costs $95. Why didn't they review the supply from Kingwin that is 1/3 the cost?
One guess is that the entire AnandTech article is a hidden Directron.com advertisement. Maybe Directron.com does not want you to know that you don't need to pay more, and that you will derive no benefit from giving Directron more profit.
The AnandTech article says, "Directron.com let us pick one of every new power supply off their shelves in order to put together a sample of 18 of the newer power supplies on the market right now."
The article says about the Kingwin KWI-450WABK, "We received our quad fan Kingwin supply well before the TTGI units had hit American soil. The unit was well received in the lab, but as we noticed when the TTGI units arrived, practically identical in construction. TTGI and Kingwin obtain their components from the same manufacturers in Taiwan."
"Practically identical" does NOT mean identical. Directron's 350 Watt TTGI TT-350SS is $28.99. It looks a lot like the KingWin 350 Watt supply, but is different; the TTGI supply does not have most of the labels that are on the KingWin supply, for example.
Look below at that link for what Directron says about their warranty: "Customer is responsible for returning defective products including DOA due to manufacturer unless testing is paid before shipping." DOA means "Dead on Arrival". Very clearly, Directron says that they do NOT stand behind their products.
Directron's warranty may be translated as, "If what we ship you doesn't work, tough luck, don't bother mentioning it to Directron, you are on your own, complain to the manufacturer, and pay the shipping costs to where the manufacturer is located, but we won't tell you in advance where that is, because you might buy directly from the manufacturer." Only if you pay more will Directron stand behind what they ship. So the true cost is not $28.99, unless you want to take your chances.
I suspect, and I have plenty of evidence, that when companies ask you to pay more for testing if you want a warranty from them, you get absolutely no testing. What you get is only the right to return a DOA unit to them.
Notice something else about that Directron page. The price is an image, not text, from a different server, yimg.com. Does anyone know why they do that? I don't.
There is plenty of evidence that the people at AnandTech have little technical understanding. Maybe the site makes money by doing things their advertisers want, which may be different from what is good for you.
The first page of the AnandTech article says, "We then ran several exhaustive tests on these pow
Yes but most computers do not have ECC nor parity on their memory.
ECC might protect you and parity will simply allow you to crash out safely.
Unless it was dont care memory this error would cause a failure of some form.
I have run memory tests with quite dodgey memory, power supplies, fans etc. over periods of many hours and these errors do normaly not occur.
Unless you went out to buy eec memory for your computer because you are scared these sort of error might occur over the lifetime of your machine then you are not protected from them.
I think the case is you dont know what youre talking about. The and coming along and looking like a fool stating that the moderators are stupid for also being cauteous of the results presented doesnt help. You seem to be very angry that a public forum is composed of people expressing their "wrong" opinions but at the same time you are happy to troll away on them. You you dont agree then dont read it. Unless you spent several hours working out what "amasing" means then maybe you should lay of the coffee.
Mouse powered Chips, Open source Processors and Lego