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Computer Audio - To USB or Not to USB?

Posted by Cliff on from the bussing-your-notes-to-the-speakers dept.

Tom asks: "The time has come for me to upgrade the audio on my computer. This was last discussed, here.My specific area of interest, is the sound card, in its various embodiments. Two cards that I am considering are Creative Labs' Audigy2, and M-Audio's Revolution 7.1. These companies also have USB counterparts to their products - the Extigy and the Sonica Theatre - and I can't decide if USB's portability and other various advantages justify its shortcomings. Experiences, anyone?"

77 comments

  1. It's kind of like wireless by noitalever · · Score: 1

    Great when you need it, but never as good as the wired version. Response, compatibility, even battery life in some cases. I personally always go wired when it won't be a pain to have a wire. That way I don't have to worry about it not working.

    1. Re:It's kind of like wireless by gellenburg · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I disagree.

      My Harmon Kardon Soundsticks (USB) connected to my PowerMac sound *incredible*.

      Of course, part of the reason is the design of the speakers and subwoofers; however because the only signal passing across the wire is pure digital, there's no signal loss.

      With the Kardon's, the amplifier and decode circuitry is contained within the speakers.

      On the flipside, I have noticed a small problem with my Plantronics DSP-500 USB headset/ microphone combo.

      When recording audio, listening to audio, and printing a long document on my USB laser printer, every once in a while the recording audio will get distorted.

      Not sure if this is related to the USB 1.1 bus being overloaded on the particular hub that all those devices are plugged into.

      Another anomaly I've noticed is that since both the input audio and output audio has to be buffered and re-encoded, there is a slight (125 ms.) delay if I have the headset speakers in "monitor" mode (i.e. listening to my own voice) which can be a bit disturbing at times.

      But, as long as I'm not doing all that, the audio quality is fantastic.

      In addition, I don't notice the same symptoms if I'm playing audio through my Soundsticks and recording audio at the same time through my microphone, even though both devices are on the same USB hub so part of the problem may just be the Plantronics headset.

      I used to have such a deterrant to USB audio, thinking that it could never match or surpass the quality of good line-level output and a good amplifier until I bought the soundsticks and those have definitely turned my thinking around.

      So, bottom line I suppose is you get what you pay for with USB audio, just like with most other things.

  2. hm by revmoo · · Score: 4, Informative

    From what I can tell, a lot of semi-audio professionals like usb sound cards because there isn't quite the interference with them, that one gets from a sound card sitting inside your case.

    The only real downside(other than price), is that they use more cpu than traditional PCI soundcards. However, not enough to make a difference these days. :-)

    And of course, I want the extigy because it looks so neat. Too bad it's still $150 at Compusa, I'm waiting for it to hit $75 or so and then I plan to pick one up. Since I use a real amplifier and speakers connected to my computer(the only way to go), it will be nice to drop the 1/8" -> RCA adapter coming out of the soundcard.

    --
    I would expect such blatant racism on Fark, but on Slashdot? Mods please ban this asshole.
    1. Re:hm by cnvogel · · Score: 1
      lot of semi-audio professionals like usb sound cards because there isn't quite the interference with them, that one gets from a sound card sitting inside your case


      Then FireWire (a.k.a IEEE 1984) should be even better because you can totally isolate it from the PC via simple transformers for the two data cable-pairs. This will trivially eliminate all ground loops.
    2. Re:hm by shamino0 · · Score: 1
      Then FireWire (a.k.a IEEE 1984) should be even better because you can totally isolate it from the PC via simple transformers for the two data cable-pairs. This will trivially eliminate all ground loops.

      I suppose, but it seems rather pointless to me.

      FireWire is a twisted-pair differential signal. You don't get common-mode noise with differential signals. Any current carried through the ground wire would not affect the signal path.

    3. Re:hm by Fastball · · Score: 1
      Too bad it's still $150 at Compusa, I'm waiting for it to hit $75 or so and then I plan to pick one up.

      You'll never buy a soundcard you truly want then. By the time the Extigy hits $75, you'll be cumshotting the next generation soundcard which will go for $150 or so.

      I picked up an Audigy2 over the holidays and paired it with Creative's 6.1 speaker system...beautiful. The soundcard and speakers made Ghost Recon, a good game to begin with, 400% better. When an AI-controlled squad mate opens up on the enemy with his MG3 or OICW, it wakes you up. Love my Audigy2 on both Linux (w/ Alsa drivers) and Windows XP.

      I also hit the graphics card sweet spot with that Radeon 9700 Pro. For all the bitching on /. about driver support for Linux, I get 6000+ fps in glxgears with a 2.4Ghz P4 with 512MB RAM. But that is neither here nor there.

      Get that card now! You want it! You know you want it!

    4. Re:hm by Emil+Brink · · Score: 1

      FireWire is a twisted-pair differential signal.
      Just like USB, of course.

      --
      main(O){10<putchar(4^--O?77-(15&5128 >>4*O):10)&&main(2+O);}
    5. Re:hm by stilwebm · · Score: 1



      The noise affecting the signal to the external audio device isn't an issue, since it is a digital signal making noise filtering and error correction simple. However, the wires still connect the ground of the computer to the ground of the audio device. This could cause groundloops via analog output between the external audio device and the receiver or amplifier to which analog signal is destined. That is where isolation transformers could help. I imagine isolation transformers on the digital side would not add any (uncorrectable) distortion, but on the analog side they could add distortion. So if you can isolate on the digital side, this is preferred.

    6. Re:hm by darien · · Score: 1

      From what I can tell, a lot of semi-audio professionals like usb sound cards because there isn't quite the interference with them, that one gets from a sound card sitting inside your case.

      Sounds fair enough, but if I remember rightly the Extigy only supports 16-bit audio at something like 44.1kHz, while the Audigy 2 supports 24-bit recording at 96kHz. Since I don't have an Extigy, I can't comment on the benefits of its isolation, but I can tell you that the noise floor on my Audigy 2 is really, REALLY low (sadly I'm not in front of that computer or I'd give you figures, but trust me, it's superb); and the extra resolution is very good to have. I'm not pretending I can listen to a sound and instantly recognise it as being 24-bit / 96kHz, but it's certainly nice to be able to work at such a high resolution. Naturally you can always downsample if you need to burn a track to CD.

    7. Re:hm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Firewire is not a.k.a IEEE 1984, it's IEEE 1394..

    8. Re:hm by shamino0 · · Score: 1
      However, the wires still connect the ground of the computer to the ground of the audio device. This could cause groundloops via analog output between the external audio device and the receiver or amplifier to which analog signal is destined.

      Yeah, this is a possibility. But I would consider it a very poor design for an audio device if its power-ground, data-ground and audio-ground planes weren't isolated from each other.

      And I have seen several such poor designs, including (I think) Apple's 17" PowerBook. A friend of mine uses his in his car for traveling music. If he uses both a cigarette-lighter power adaptor and a line from the computer's headphone jack to the stero's aux-in jack at once, he gets some really bad noise - noise which varies in proportion with engine speed. Obviously, noise from the car's electrical system (carried through the cigarette lighter) is going into the Mac's power-in jack and is being carried straight to the line-out jack. Which I consider poor design. (Fortunately, the noise doesn't come through the built-in speakers.)

      At this point, we're looking to see if we can find any cigarette-lighter power adaptors that will filter the power coming in.

  3. I wouldn't by Tyrdium · · Score: 1

    I'm assuming that sound cards use a decent amount of bandwidth... USB 1.1 (no USB 2.0 sound "cards" that I know of): 12 Mbps. PCI: Ummm... Higher... In the gigabit range, I believe...
    PCI has a much higher bandwidth than that of USB, so it's better for applications like that (although a USB video card would be useful)... Yeah...

    1. Re:I wouldn't by cbiffle · · Score: 3, Informative

      > I'm assuming that sound cards use a decent amount of
      > bandwidth...

      You're actually assuming more than that.

      A channel of CD audio takes ~1.4Mbps. (44100 samples per second, two channels per sample, 16 bits per channel.) So full duplex stereo CD-quality audio takes 2.8Mbps. Let's say we're hardcore audiophiles and want full-duplex 96kHz stereo audio: 6.1Mbps.

      And yes, the bandwidth of the PCI bus is 133MBps or ~1064Mbps. So if you really need 98 channels of CD-quality audio, PCI's clearly the only way to go.

      Now, there are of course issues with USB devices. The main one that comes to mind to me are lack of DMA and bus-mastering. A good PCI sound card can handle its own transfers in and out of RAM, preventing it from being buffer-starved (or at least making it more difficult). This isn't possible with USB (but -is- possible with Firewire, sort of).

      You'll also wish to consider latency, but I suspect it'll be lower than your average high-quality software synth if they're using the USB isochronous channel.

    2. Re:I wouldn't by AvitarX · · Score: 3, Insightful

      how many channels does he want for his 7.1 system?

      I am assuming 7+ the bass being sucked off all of them. It is at least 4 channels with the others interpalated so that is about half of your USB bandwidth at a minimum 7 * 2.8 and you can't fit it all and yes, I want CD quality sould if I am watching a DVD on my $150.00 sound card.

      Also USB may be doing other things. Can you watch a DVD while you print stuff out? How about the line in, for say voice chat in a game.

      I don't think that USB 1.1 has the bandwidth to support a full sound system without some crazy stuff happening (for example a driver could be setup that sends three channels (triangulate) and the card could split it up, but sounds very costly to the CPU).

      If I am totally wrong here speakup.

      --
      Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
    3. Re:I wouldn't by Zathrus · · Score: 1

      If I am totally wrong here speakup.

      Ok. You're totally wrong here. :)

      It's a complete non-issue. As others have pointed out, the maximum bandwidth for DD is ~480 kbps. All the channels are decoded out of that. And there's no reason to decode them prior to the USB device, since it can do the decoding itself.

      Anything else that is going to put out multiple data streams would be advised to use DD or DTS (which generally has a maximum data stream of 512kbps, although I think I've seen 784 talked about). Yes, it requires some CPU crunching, but you'll have to do that at some point if you want to use any kind of digital outputs. Discrete analog inputs to HT systems aren't rare anymore, but they're still frowned upon.

      Voice chat in a game will probably use telephone quality sound at best... that's all of 64kbps (8 KHz, mono). Doubt it'd be a strain on the USB. Nor would printing things out (remember the DD data stream is consuming under 5% of the theoretical maximum of USB)... although exactly why you're watching a DVD and printing at the same time is beyond me. I'm sure there are other, valid, cases of such things though so it's a decent what-if case.

      BTW, your math is wrong. It's not 7 * 2.8, it's 7*1.4. Which, while it's below the maximum theoretical bandwidth for USB1.1, it's above the realistic realized bandwidth.

      Of course, there isn't a single 7.1 discrete format out there. It's all 5.1, with "magic" being applied to the rear 2 channels to extrapolate an additional (6.1) channel or pair (7.1) of channels. So we're back to 5*1.4, which is once again within the range of USB, albeit on the edge of real world performance.

      USB1.1 certainly has the bandwidth to support a full sound system. Better reading on this, with all the pluses and minuses, is available from AVS Forum's HTPC Forum.

  4. I use USB audio extensively... by torpor · · Score: 5, Informative

    ... and I find it works just fine for my needs.

    -tiBook
    -19" rack full of synthesizers and a 16 chanel mixer with 2 recording/send busses.
    -external keyboard (indigo2 synth, not the computer)
    -external 4x4 USB Audio interface
    -external USB hub, with MOTU MTP-AV, keys, mouse, etc.

    I lay down stereo tracks at a time, typically, or at least I only ever record two tracks at the same time as I'm playing (and digitally mixing on my laptop) typically about 6 to 12 other tracks, no problems. My USB Audio interface keeps up with everything I'm doing, no glitches, and I'm working at 44.1khz/16bit.

    I also watch DVD's on this setup, quite comfortably, and never notice any sync/glitch problems with USB.

    A Firewire audio interface would be better of course, because then I'd have lots more i/o and routing capabilities with soft control, and so I'm planning on getting one soon ... at which point I'll chuck my 16-channel mixer and have an extra 2U's left in the rack for ... something ... else ... fun.

    16 inputs in my rack right now would be sweet indeed, particulary considering that 4 items have their own input/routing capabilities as well as multipe output channels, so a Firewire interface is pretty much totally in sight ... but yeah, USB works just fine.

    (OSX, tiBook, lotsa RAM, smooth as silk USB audio drivers)

    --
    ; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
    1. Re:I use USB audio extensively... by Lechter · · Score: 1

      You wouldn't care to expand on your setup would you? I just got a tiBook, and I've been looking to upgrade my audio kit as I work the tiBook in... Thanks!

      --
      credo quia absurdum
    2. Re:I use USB audio extensively... by torpor · · Score: 3, Informative

      I would be happy to expand on my setup, on the music-bar:

      http://www.ampfea.org/mailman/listinfo/music-bar /

      Join this list for some help, and feel free to ask all the questions you want about what to do with your tiBook and Audio ... it is a very welcome topic on music-bar, and you'll get a better response than I can give you with a /. post right now ...

      --
      ; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
    3. Re:I use USB audio extensively... by api · · Score: 1

      "A Firewire audio interface would be better of course"

      Does it help any that the DV aspect of FireWire supports 12bit 4-channel and 16bit 2-channel? Just ignore the video signal.

      M.

    4. Re:I use USB audio extensively... by torpor · · Score: 1

      No need ... there are plenty of great quality firewire audio interfaces on the market right now, I just can't afford the one I want yet! :)

      --
      ; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
  5. Things to consider by chrisd · · Score: 3, Insightful
    First off, one of my friends has the m-audio and it's just amazing. Secondly, don't let the sound quality inside computers throw you off, it's got a digital output after all.

    The creative is nice, but it's been my experience that creative has a hard time supporting thier products (with the exception of their cambridge soundworks stores).

    Chrisd

    --
    Co-Editor, Open Sources
    Open Source Program Manager, Google, Inc.
    1. Re:Things to consider by f0rtytw0 · · Score: 1

      I totally agree there on creative not exactly supporting their products. I have an audigy and after a few bsod's I finally got it to work correctly... minus most of the software that came with it.

      --
      this is the most important sig ever! In your face 446154!
  6. Extigy is great by ErisCalmsme · · Score: 4, Informative

    I use the extigy and I must say it's great.
    I needed something for my laptop so that I could record live mixes from my dj equipment, since my laptop only had a mic input (really horrible for recording from a device). I decided on the extigy because I found a linux driver for it (you need a separate driver for 2.4.21, and so far it works with 2.6.0 test3, at least for playback).

    So far I can tell you it records great. It records at 48000Hz (which means you have to convert wavs down to 44100 before you can burn em, but it's easy with sox). I haven't tried the 5.1 capabilities yet since I don't have money for a 5.1 speaker set;) I also haven't had a chance to test the midi capabilities with it yet, but my dmesg does say the usbmidi drivers are working.

    I think the coolest thing about it so far, aside from the fact that it just works well, is that if you know what you're doing, you can write programs to make the remote control do whatever you want. The linux-2.4.21 drivers I found came with an xmms wrapper example that works pretty well. You can use the volume controls, stop, pause, play, etc. and switch songs... I spent the first week I had it just watchin my xmms volume knobs move when I pressed the vol+ button haha.

    The extigy is also super light if you want to carry it with you. I think the adapter might weigh more than the device itself. I'm not sure how the extigy works any other OS, but I guess it would perform well if you had the right software.

    --
    Chaos is Divine *
    1. Re:Extigy is great by tzanger · · Score: 1

      Got some more data on the driver? I found this one but I don't want to spend the cash on an Extigy if it's not going to work swimmingly.

      I'm only interested in digital passthrough, to shove the digital audio stream into my receiver. Hell if you know of any PCI cards that are supported for full 5.1 digital out on Linux I'd be thankful, as I don't need the clean environment if it's all digital.

    2. Re:Extigy is great by ErisCalmsme · · Score: 3, Informative

      The driver you found is the one I'm using now. I havent had any problems with it to date. I'm still playing around with the test3 kernel, which supports the extigy without an external driver. So far I can tell you that it plays ok, from xmms and from gxmame. I haven't tried recording with it yet though.
      The guy on that who wrote that 2.4.21 driver mentions that he's not sure if the extigy works with alsa, but since alsa is what the 2.6 kernel uses, I am guessing that it does.

      --
      Chaos is Divine *
    3. Re:Extigy is great by andrewl6097 · · Score: 1

      5.1 works with SB Live! cards under linux perfectly. Even the value ones if you make an RCA connector and attach it to the pins on the card (or wimp out and buy the $60 attachment). The only problem I've had is in finding applications that do AC3 passthrough right - I've had success with VLC.

    4. Re:Extigy is great by tzanger · · Score: 1

      Thanks for the info -- I have read up and mplayer seems to support AC3 hardware... if you don't mind, I have another question: if I'm playing straight MP3s (through mplayer) -- do I get plain stereo data out of the digital audio connection?

    5. Re:Extigy is great by andrewl6097 · · Score: 1

      Yes.

    6. Re:Extigy is great by darien · · Score: 1

      I kind of whinged about this above, but only implicitly...

      I have to say, I'm wary of converting from 48kHz down to 44.1kHz. Seems to me the result would be worse than recording at 44.1kHz in the first place, because it's simply an awkward division (like viewing at a picture in Photoshop at 91.875% zoom - it looks a lot better at 75% or 50%). Of course, the Audigy 2's 96kHz doesn't divide neatly into 44.1kHz either; but you have a much more detailed recording to start with (especially since the Audigy also supports 24-bit audio), so downsampling it to 44.1kHz should produce MUCH better results than a 48kHz source.

      Anyone have any real life experience of this?

    7. Re:Extigy is great by LauraW · · Score: 1
      >Anyone have any real life experience of this?

      Sort of. My last job was at a company that does voice applications. The telephony software supported playback of 8kHz audio files (that's all the bandwidth you get on a normal phone), so we had to downsample the original recordings to 8 kHz. We found that there was a minor but (barely) audible improvement in the sound quality if we did the original recordings at 48 kHz rather than at 44.1 kHz, because that way the downsampling is really sampling, not interpolation.

      I haven't tried downsampling from 48 kHz to 44.1 kHz, but I suspect you'd hear the same thing: a minor but noticeable degradation.

  7. All things being equal - by (H)elix1 · · Score: 1

    I'd avoid the Creative Labs card based on driver issues I've had in the past. It is not so much that their drivers don't work - it is the way they bundle everything in an exe. Not good when you are trying to work around problems. I know nothing about M-Audio, however..

    --
    +++ UGUCAUCGUAUUUCU
    1. Re:All things being equal - by BrookHarty · · Score: 2, Informative

      I'd avoid the Creative Labs card based on driver issues I've had in the past.

      Thats one of the reasons I only do Creative now. Back in the good ole days of Dos+Win311 and Os/2 it was Gravis or SB. I finally went SB16, SB32, SBLive and then Audigy. Wanted the full support in video games. I pick up the SBlive cards for dirt cheap for the kit boxes, just a couple bux, works great under linux and windows too.

      The only other oem cards I picked up for linux, has been yamaha chipsets, 9 bux each, and they had great linux support. Thou EMU drivers for SB chipsets are much better now.

      But for windows, I like the support for EAX and and the in game surround sound support. Also Creative labs seem to be the better choice for CPU load in games.

      Not saying Creative is perfect, the drive packages suck, and you can f**k up an install if you try to install/patch/patch process. But on a clean install, its pretty solid. Also they dont provide all the input/output jacks modern cards or the Pro versions offer like a break out box, 7.1 speaker setup, etc. The M-Audio seems to have good support for Apple and has pretty good reviews. Been thinking of picking one up for the dual g4 osx box.

      Really, consumer audio cards is a lacking area. Creative has had a strangle hold for almost the entire life of Dos and Windows. AC97 compat chipsets just dont cut it. And they dont support all the hardware accelerated directx modes.

      One last thing, after using hardware mode directx in winamp, the his is gone. Its almost like night and day compared to normal wavout. Very nice.

    2. Re:All things being equal - by TVmelissa · · Score: 1

      I'll never buy another Creative card, either. What really turned me off them, is that a couple of years ago, they stopped providing Live!Ware for free download from the website, in the name of "convenience." (Now all you sorry dial-up users don't have to sit through a multi-hour download! Woop-dee-do, I've got cable, and it only takes me a few tens of minutes!) Now, you have to order it on CD, and pay a hefty shipping charge. I used the website's feedback form to ask why they couldn't have it both for download, and on CD, and their answer basically boiled down to, "But this way's better."

      That and the whole Audigy 24/96 fiasco really turned me off.

    3. Re:All things being equal - by jovlinger · · Score: 1

      I had a creative card under Win98 (well, I guess I still have the card, but the OS commited suicide), and that card (the sblive 5.1, or somesuch) was a PITA to use. It had more sliders and controls than houston ground control, and only one precise combination thereof would allow me to forward from mic to line out. As far as I could tell, there was no way of saving the settings, so I ended up printing screenshots of when I finally got it working, and had those folded up under my monitor for whenever I wanted to watch TV on the All-In-Wonder. (you could save something but it wasn't the mixer settings. No, they were not obvious, and turning on seemingly unrelated switches would stop it working.)

      I think I may be using the MB built-in audio these days... only use it for previewing downloaded songs, before I play them on the real mp3 player (which is an I-Opener with usb audio spdif, btw).

      In general, getting multimedia to do the right thing has been MUCH easier for me under linux than windows. But then, perhaps the very automatic trust-us-we-know-best attitude that makes it just work for mom and pop make it hard for me to figure out what they mean.

      > And they dont support all the hardware accelerated directx modes.

      hardware accelerated sound?! My mind boggles. Obviously you and I put soundcards to VERY different uses.

    4. Re:All things being equal - by op00to · · Score: 1

      ... and you couldn't hide the sliders you don't use? Maybe you can try a mixer program that didn't come with your Operating System of choice? The card has nothing to do with the software. You have a choice, exercise it.

    5. Re:All things being equal - by grendel_x86 · · Score: 1

      I am another anti-Creative Labs person, i wasnt to fond of their little secret about their DVD decoders burning out nvidia cards.

      Im very partial to philip's soundcards. I have an Acoustic Edge, and find the sound to be fuller, and richer on studio monitors than soundblaster Live cards.

      My only experience w/ USB audio is Griffin iMics, which are a little flakey at times, and sound a little tiny on good headphones(compared to either the Live, or my Acoustic Edge).

      Unfortunatly the philip's cards dont work right under linux, so i use my onboard soundblaster512 for Linux, and disable it under windows.

      --
      Im glad /. isnt the real world, that would really suck..
  8. More information, please by Zarquon · · Score: 5, Informative

    You haven't said what you want to do with said sound card. Here are some likely possible uses:

    If you want high-fidelity field recording, USB is good (I use an Edirol UA-5 usb 'prosumer' audio connection, and am quite happy with the results). Really high level stuff requires a different interconnect, firewire, PC Card, USB2, etc.

    If you want a gamer card, USB is a good choice for a laptop or other semiportable operation (LAN parties). Keep in mind, this environment may call for simply a decent pair of headphones. Moving 8 speakers around constantly is not fun, 2 or 3 (or headphones) are a better choice.

    If you want a home theater setup (DVDs, DVB, HDTV) you're probably looking at a fairly static setup and might as well go with the standard expansion card. If you have a really high-end setup, (good amplifier, speakers, and room design) consider a good quality external solution to remove the EM noise from inside the computer's case. I strongly hestitate from describing any recent Creative Labs sound device as 'High Quality', but I have not in fact listened to the one you described.

    Both USB models you chose are USB1.1, meaning low bandwidth, and will top out quite easily. Think 48k/24bit/2chan full duplex, a raw AC3 stream, or 96k/24bit/2chan half duplex.

    --
    "'Tis great confidence in a friend to tell him your faults, greater to tell him his." --Poor Richard's Almanac
    1. Re:More information, please by Unominous+Coward · · Score: 1

      If you have a really high-end setup, (good amplifier, speakers, and room design) consider a good quality external solution to remove the EM noise from inside the computer's case.

      Actually, if you have a good enough internal soundcard, you can just use the digital out and avoid any interference from the inside of your computer.

      I use my Audigy's digital output to connect it to my HT receiver and I haven't had any problems. Another bonus is that you don't need to find a convenient spot to put the breakout box. Why waste space when you don't have to?

      --
      "Smoking helps you lose weight - one lung at a time" -- A. E. Neumann
    2. Re:More information, please by Zarquon · · Score: 1

      Well, in which case you have still moved the DACs outside the case, haven't you? :)

      But that is a good point. If you consider going this way, try to use coax SPDIF. At household ranges it's just as effective and noise resistant, and it's a _lot_ cheaper (well, assuming you buy decent stuff; monster cable is not worth it.)

      --
      "'Tis great confidence in a friend to tell him your faults, greater to tell him his." --Poor Richard's Almanac
  9. noise and interference by cloudless.net · · Score: 4, Informative

    Most PCI sound cards have noise and interference problems. Try turning up the volumn and listen with a good headphone, the noise is very noticable. I don't understand why many people buy expensive PCI sound cards while a cheap USB card does the job better.

    1. Re:noise and interference by ikeleib · · Score: 1

      You can get a sound card with >96db SnR for $50. In fact, if you get a Turtle Beach Santa Cruz, it gives you six channels, to boot. If the analog outputs are too noisy for you, there's always digital output.

      see for yourself

    2. Re:noise and interference by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The PCI bus has more bandwidth than USB. PCI devices can usually do hardware mixing, but USB devices may have a problem with it (the USB headset I have can only play one stream at a time).

      Another problem with USB is that it uses a lot of CPU time, which would be a problem with gamers (I've heard Firewire is much better with CPU usage, but I haven't tried any Firewire audio devices yet).

    3. Re:noise and interference by 90XDoubleSide · · Score: 2, Informative

      The problem with internal sound cards in general is that the inside of a computer case is not exactly the ideal environment for analog data that is sensitive to distortion and noise. But as you said, this is only a problem if you're still using analog outputs. As long as you're using a digital output, save some space and get an internal, but if you're still using analog outputs, you still get a little cleaner sound from an external.

      --
      "Reality is just a convenient measure of complexity" -Alvy Ray Smith
  10. M-Audio Audiophile USB by metamatic · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I got an M-Audio USB unit, and I was amazed by the sound quality improvement over the built-in audio on my Mac... and Macs are known for having pretty good audio to start with.

    No problems digitizing at 24 bit accuracy across USB 1.1.

    --
    GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak
    1. Re:M-Audio Audiophile USB by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 1

      linux support?

      --

      --
      "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
    2. Re:M-Audio Audiophile USB by metamatic · · Score: 1

      Not yet.

      --
      GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak
  11. 3 comments- bandwidth, digital & other by millia · · Score: 2, Interesting

    1) i can't tell if the bandwidth of these things is really an issue. 6 channels at cd quality comes to 4.233 megabits. 192/24/6= 27 megabits. so it would seem that regular usb would be too slow, i guess, but that's in the spec of several of the usb audio boxes, so i just don't know what's going on.
    2) usb would certainly remove grounding, computer noise, etc., but so would optical digital connections. i have my stereo hooked up to a pc with a terratec aureon 7.1 space card, about $150us, and my connection has never sounded better.
    it passes through dvd audio with no probs, and, for my vinyl-to-digital needs, it has digital in AND out on the back of the card.
    i would have gone with a creative, but they don't have such specs, and the cheapest other card i found that did was $400.
    it also has support in the linux kernel, which i'll be testing after i build a new music & video machine. actually, i think i might whip out knoppix here in a moment...
    oh, it also looks very well made. everything is labeled nicely, too.
    3) the dominance of creative is not good, i don't think, but i can't think of any way to help the situation. i would have bought one had they had what i needed...

    --
    stored on computers from birth to the grave
    1. Re:3 comments- bandwidth, digital & other by Babbster · · Score: 3, Interesting
      "1) i can't tell if the bandwidth of these things is really an issue. 6 channels at cd quality comes to 4.233 megabits. 192/24/6= 27 megabits. so it would seem that regular usb would be too slow, i guess, but that's in the spec of several of the usb audio boxes, so i just don't know what's going on."

      I can't speak to multi-channel video games on the PC (are they doing DD5.1 in PC games these days?), but bandwidth isn't a problem at all for the other big multi-channel format, DVD. A compressed Dobly Digital six-channel (DD5.1) stream comes in at only 448 kbit/s. Since the Extigy can pass through and decode Dolby Digital, the USB doesn't have to carry the decoded/decompressed signal and the data rate above wouldn't stress a USB 1.1 connection at all - all depending on the driver and DVD player software, of course.

  12. 8738 by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 1

    get a cmedia 8738 based board.

    I think its bit accurate and it has good linux support.

    connect its spdif out (or in) to a dac (adc) and you're in business.

    many mobos come with this chip already onboard, too.

    --

    --
    "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
    1. Re:8738 by MrHanky · · Score: 1

      No, don't get a CMedia 8738 based board. Yes, they're cheap, and the Linux support is quite good, but the sound quality is so-so (I'm speaking from experience with the Soyo K7V-Dragon+ built-in sound board, based on this chip, some cards are probably better), and worst of all: it can't do hardware mixing. This means you need something like esd or artsd to mix sound for you, but these do a lousy job. Of course, the one and only way is to use Jack, but KDE, Gnome, etc., don't take advantage of it yet.

    2. Re:8738 by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 2, Insightful

      uhm, there is no such thing as 'sound quality' in digital audio transports! its all in the DAC.

      I don't ever use the analog out of an 8738 board. why bother when a dac is $50 or less (less if ebay, like some midiman or old old audio alchemy dac boxes).

      the only reason I mentioned 8738 is for pure audio in and out use. yes, it may not have the audio mixing that you refer to - but why get a digital spdif card and care about the analog section? the analog section is there for completeness and not for high end use. high end use is spdif to a dac.

      --

      --
      "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
    3. Re:8738 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He was talking about it not supporting playing more than one audio stream at a time in linux. This is not an analogue issue. The hardware does not support (digital) mixing of multiple input streams. Windows does this in software, but Linux drivers don't. Therefore only higher end cards that support hardware mixing (like the soundblaster live) let you play multiple audio streams at a time in linux.

      The linux way of "doing this in software" is to use esd or artsd or jack, as the parent poster mentioned. But they all use CPU time and suck in one way or another - mostly just in that none of them are globally supported. :(

  13. Extigy != external A2 by JeffTL · · Score: 1

    It's like a standard Audigy, but I think it sounds worse than an Audigy. My advice: Go for the plain Audigy or the Audigy2. I have an Audigy2 and I am still trying to tweak it into producing sound under Linux; I understand it sounds better than the more Linux-friendly Audigy though.

    1. Re:Extigy != external A2 by R0 · · Score: 1

      According to the Alsa Soundcard Matrix the extigy "Doesn't really do 24 bits via USB. Doesn't really do 96 kHz via USB." The Audigy2 doesn't seem to be listed. None of the M-Audio (Midiman) USB devices are listed with this "problem".

    2. Re:Extigy != external A2 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      my audigy 2 works perfectly here (linux 2.6.0-test2). don't worry about what the alsa sound card matrix says - look at the code!! support for the audigy 2 is there.

    3. Re:Extigy != external A2 by JeffTL · · Score: 1

      In that case, I'd suggest an Audigy1, an Extigy, or one of those M-Audio devices if the poster intends to do anything with sound and Linux. Audigy2 can be coaxed into working on Linux,but not easily.

    4. Re:Extigy != external A2 by Fastball · · Score: 1
      Someone will correct me if I'm wrong...here goes:

      For Alsa drivers, the Audigy2 uses the emu10k1 driver. I've done this several times with a P4 2.4Ghz desktop and P4 1.2Ghz laptop both running Gentoo. Sound quality is *excellent*. One caveat for multi-channel users (5.1 or 6.1 speakers), you only get front channels. There's no surround sound support...yet. Anybody have some success with multi-channel from your Audigy2?

  14. I don't recommend USB for input. by mellon · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I have had incredibly bad luck with it, particularly with the Edirol UA-3 and UA-3D. I do some semi-professional audio mastering for a Dharma group, and I have _never_ gotten a clean recording. Usually I get little glitches every five or ten minutes. I wound up having to buy a PCI card to do the digitization. Of course, I'm doing S/PDIF digital audio, so I don't have to worry about noise from the power supply.

    I have had pretty good luck with the pair of SoundSticks that I got for Christmas last year, which are USB *output* devices. They occasionally glitch out when the screen saver goes off (this is on MacOS X), but the audio quality is great otherwise - I've never heard a glitch on output other than with the screen saver.

  15. Extigy = SBLive ?? by halfnerd · · Score: 1

    I heard someone saying that extigy is equal to an SBLive 5.1 with USB-interface... and the Audigy2-chipset is way newer, and has 96bit sampling and other nice stuff. So IIRC and the extigy uses the Live!-chipset, then I'd definately buy a Audigy2-based card instead.

  16. Latency... by yabHuj · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ...is (~an order of magnitude) bigger with USB. This can be a real issue if you're doing (many) multitracks, where latencies add up.

    Higher CPU usage and bandwidth limitation (recording standard 24/96 will "max out" USB-1 at full duplex) are other issues you (usually) don't face with PCI cards or Firewire stuff.

    Price difference is not an issue usually - better ADC/DAC are expensive in every packing (PCI/USB/Firewire).

    Yes, it is advantagous to have the ADC/DAC remote from the EM-noisy PC enclosure - but the max. (specified) cable length of ~1m (correct me here please if my memory is not right - yes, I know that usually longer cables beyond the max. specification still work with a number of devices) is a bit short for nice usage above the desk.

  17. My (limited) experience. by pete-classic · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I bought a JVC reciever about six months ago ('cause the ex spilled a coke in the old one) and it happened to have a USB "input" (USB-B connector) on the front.

    I didn't think much of it when I bought it, figured it'd be a windows only thing anyway. One day my system was off, for a hardware upgrade IIRC, and I plugged in the reciever on a whim.

    RH9's kudzu picked it up and set it up as /dev/dsp1. Now I have mplayer set up to use that device for audio output, and everything else uses /dev/dsp (lame built in sound on my MB connected to lame speakers built into my display).

    It all works out really well, and the sound through the reciever is great.

    The one downside to consider ist that you can only play audio CDs through a USB sound device by using CDDA, which is less than ideal. Uses a lot of CPU and IDE bandwidth and still skips from time to time. (For me, anyway.)

    Good luck!

    -Peter

  18. Game Theater XP by jpsst34 · · Score: 2, Informative

    This little bugger, the Hercules Game Theater XP was first released to Market about 3 years ago and has enjoyed relative obscurity compared to Creative's offerings, though it was far superior to the SBLive! Platinum (Creative's flagship at the time). After it was released, I waited for some reviews to come in and they were quite good, so I bought one. Then I bought another. Then my father-in-law bought one.

    It is PCI based, with nost of your I/O's on the breakout box, including 4 USB ports, gold-plated 1/4" headphone with control pot, gold-plated 1/4" line-in with control pot, gold-plated RCA line-in, game port, gold-plated 1/8" main and surround line-out, 6 gold-plated RCA line-outs (main left/right, surround left/right, center, subwoofer), Digital S/PDIF Input & Output (Coaxial & Optical), MIDI-In/MIDI-Out DIN connectors (MPU-401 compatible).

    I've never had a problem with it. Drivers are great. 7.1 Audio is nice! It's based on the Crystal CS4624 DSP, a fairly capable chip.

    When released, it sold for about $150, compared to the SBLive! Platinum, which came in at over $200. I don't see it at CompUSA and BestBuy today, but I'm sure you can find one.

    --
    How are you going to keep them down on the farm once they've seen Karl Hungus?
  19. USB Problems by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    I've had some awful problems with USB audio devices. I've never used an Extigy (I'm a mac user, and it isn't compatible), but I've used a Tascam audio device to control my MIDI and audio signals through my iMac. Although it handles MIDI quite well, I've had some trouble with audio latency - sometimes barely noticeable, other times up to 1 second. It's taken some tweaking to fix.

    I think it just depends on what you want to use your USB sound device for, and what platform you're using (and software).

  20. Extigy and 5.1 by TSMABob · · Score: 2, Informative

    I don't own an Extigy, but my roommate did, and I "borrowed" it on frequent occasions. He has a 5.1 surround sound speaker set up in the room that was excellent for watching movies, playing music, whatever. It was nice to be able to plug in the extigy whenever I had some songs I wanted to play on my laptop while he was in class or out.

    The major problem we found was no support for DVD 5.1 audio. We never figured out if it was the extigy, the OS, or the dvd player... but the Extigy (sorta) made up for it by mixing the front channels to the back speakers with ease.

    If you've got a laptop, I reccommend the easy to plug-n-play Extigy.

    1. Re:Extigy and 5.1 by BigDish · · Score: 1

      The Extigy supports 5.1 Dolby Digital, and even has a hardware Dolby Digital decoder built in. It was your config-OSS only supports 2 channels. You needed ALSA.

  21. A lot of noise? by phorm · · Score: 1

    A certain portion of noise seems to come from badly-shielded line/mic/aux inputs on the card itself. Disabling these on the volume control (when I'm not playing a CD, or recording) actually reduced noise quite a bit.

    Yes, these are other sources of noise as well, quite often depending on what you have running in your box, but I've found that using a decent speaker cable on my not-so-expensive SBLive give me nice clean sound in most occasions.

    Anyone ever notice that a lot of noise comes from CD-ROM drives? I wonder if it's an issue with the tiny little cables on the line->aux cable, or just travelling interference in the box? It's also not a bad idea to move your soundcard as far away from other devices (say, bottommost PCI slot, away from video card, etc) as you can.

    USB audio I've looked at... but I think it's probably most suited to somebody who does mixing on the go, and/or laptop users.

    1. Re:A lot of noise? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Disabling these on the volume control actually reduced noise quite a bit.

      GOOD TIP. Thank you! That made a huge difference for me. Constant white noise had been coming from the modem, and Aux In had been grumbling upon mouse movement and whining in general. Strangely, I believe I have my second CD drive connected to Aux In, so the wire must have been picking up interference in the box.

  22. mLan by sbszine · · Score: 1

    If you're interested in firewire audio you should check out the mLan standard, which does power + MIDI + multitrack audio over a single cable. Yamaha and PreSonius both have mLan gear in the shops now (mixing desks, permaps etc).

    --

    Vino, gyno, and techno -Bruce Sterling

  23. Get an SBLive Plat + Recv'er with Optical Input. by Dast · · Score: 1

    You know, you should spend your $75 on a SoundBlaster Live Platinum with the LiveDrive extension. They are pretty cheap. The LiveDrive extension, which sits in a drive bay on your machine, has a digital, optical output that you can use to route audio to your receiver, if it has an optical input. My cheapo, kenwood VR505 has such an input. The cable is somewhat expensive, but the sound quality is worth it.

    With it, you can even input a digital, optical signal from, say, a playstation2, mix it with any audio you like, and output it optically back to your receiver [link]. Hope that helps.

    --

    This sig is false.

  24. If you're looking for excellent fidelity..... by xclr8r · · Score: 1

    If you're looking for excellent fidelity then go with a card that has an optical out. That way you don't have to worry about noise generated by ur PC. Optical is also not affected by EMF from all your power cables. Plug that optical cable into ur audio system receiver and let your amps do the work. -doing taxes is a lot like hell only it lasts longer and hurts more.

    --
    Beware of those who profit off the docile and persecute the unbelievers.
  25. my 2 cents by MisterMoney · · Score: 1

    i recently purchased the extigy because my sb was starting to go bad. nothing but praise for it. nice features, nice sound, and i can swap it to my laptop for better sound quality than the onboard if needed.

  26. Stereo-Link by DaveyJ · · Score: 1

    All I have to say is "Stereo-Link"... I've had so many problems with grounding loops and computer audio that the only way to go is digital. Whether it be optical or USB, it's the only way to cut out noise that will more often than not be apparent in a computer... Stereo-Link USB DAC This thing rocks, I own the 1200 and is the best audio investment I've made in a long time!

  27. depends on your setup by pigeon · · Score: 1

    So I used a cheap edirol on my windows 2000 machine, and it sucked. I could not get it to work reliably. Also tried special usb asio drivers, which I use to make music, but that one too gave too much latency, plus it was very unreliable. When I use it on my ibook, the interface works without problems. But I use it for musicsoftware, so I need low latency. For your home theater setup I would either buy a reasonable cheap soundcard, like an audigy 2, use the digital out on a dolby digital amp if you have one. Ii'd say, if you buy the cheapest one, you might just try it out and see if the noise isthat bad when using analogue outputs. The usb solutions are a bit more expensive, and it you do the digital out, the noise thing is not really an issue. Furthermore, M-audio has much better products than creative, and mich better support. My M-audio audiophile 2496 is not noisy, even using analogue outs in my powermac g4.

  28. Don't go USB 1.x by Stonent1 · · Score: 1

    USB 1.x has the same bandwidth basically as an ISA slot. Either wait for a USB 2.0 device, Firewire, or get a PCI card for the moment. Audigy 1 cards are cheap, just get one for 50$ (or cheaper) online and wait.

  29. USB Audio and KVM's by BigDish · · Score: 1

    I stumbled on a setup by accident which works great. I had a IO Gear USB KVM switch, and got a Sound Blaster Extigy. Well, the KVM has USB ports for the keyboard/mouse, then a second set of USB ports which can be switched independantly of the mouse/kb/video. Extigy. Result of this-I can listen to mp3's on one machine which I'm working on another. I can easily switch which machine the sound card/speakers are hooked to by pressing a few keys on my keyboard. Works GREAT!!!

  30. M-Audio, non-USB by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    If you are really into sound quality, M-Audio is the place to go. They don't make the best cards on the market (MOTU, DigiDesign) but they are priced right and they have Drivers for EVERYTHING. Say you want Linux, you got it. Say you want OSX, got it. Some of them even have BeOS.

    Anyway, the sound quality is very good. If you are just looking at 2-channel stereo sound, USB will be fine. If you need more channels than that I would look at PCI.
    There can be latency issues when recording ~8 channels of USB audio.

  31. very last post by Ruby+last+post · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Grumpy Watkins, Grumpy Watkins, Grumpy Watkins, Grumpy Watkins, Grumpy Watkins, Grumpy Watkins, Grumpy Watkins, Grumpy Watkins, Grumpy Watkins, Grumpy Watkins, Grumpy Watkins, Grumpy Watkins, Grumpy Watkins, Grumpy Watkins, Grumpy Watkins, Grumpy Watkins, Grumpy Watkins, Grumpy Watkins, Grumpy Watkins, Grumpy Watkins, Grumpy Watkins, Grumpy Watkins, Grumpy Watkins, Grumpy Watkins, Grumpy Watkins, Grumpy Watkins, Grumpy Watkins, Grumpy Watkins, Grumpy Watkins, Grumpy Watkins, Grumpy Watkins, Grumpy Watkins, Grumpy Watkins, Grumpy Watkins, Grumpy Watkins, Grumpy Watkins, Grumpy Watkins, Grumpy Watkins, Grumpy Watkins, Grumpy Watkins,

    --
    Ruby Sleeps