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Pulse Detonation Engines: The Future of Aviation

noah_fense writes "Popular Science is running an interesting article about the race to replace the jet turbine with a more efficient source of Mach-breaking airpower: the pulse-detonation engine. It works by detonating (instead of slow burning) fuel hundreds to thousands of times a second. PDE technology is poised to make supersonic passenger flights and space travel affordable. 'Pulse detonation is a hot topic in combustion research,' says Gabriel Roy of the Office of Naval Research. 'Compared with gas turbines, the PDE has a much simpler configuration. It has the capability of going from subsonic to supersonic using less fuel, and it's thermodynamically more efficient. But there are big engineering issues--thermal fatigue, noise. It's very challenging research.'"

82 of 354 comments (clear)

  1. Aurora? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Isn't this what the black helicopter people say the Aurora (fabled SR71 replacement) uses?

    1. Re:Aurora? by BJZQ8 · · Score: 5, Informative

      The PDWE has been rumored for years to be the propulsion for the fabled Aurora...this type of engine leaves "donuts on a rope" contrails behind the aircraft. The PDWE is so much different from any other engine that it's silly...First, there are few, if any, moving parts. Fuel is injected, and causes a traveling wave of combustion to move down a tube...which is reflected inside the engine, and comes back up the tube. This wave compresses fuel and air still being injected and inhaled, enough so that it detonates, instead of combusting...think of it as the "pinging" in your car engine when you have crappy fuel. But harnesses correctly (as in a diesel engine,) it's actually more efficient. So this fuel detonates, which creates a pulse which partially blows out the back, but also partially reflects back up the tube to compress more fuel. Since there are no moving parts, this can take place at a very high rate of speed...The biggest problems I've read of are starting the thing...which was supposed to be the source of low-frequency rumbles at the Groom Lake site. The tube is "tuned" to a certain speed of waves inside it, and it doesn't want to run at other speeds. And...of course...noise. The thing is capable of producing lots of power...but its operation is much like that of the German pulse-jets, which sounded like flying jackhammers. But it definately could be propulsion for the future...but not to the extent that people would dream of...

    2. Re:Aurora? by Walt+Dismal · · Score: 2, Insightful

      A key factor was mentioned here: pulsejets are REALLY loud. So if we end up with a bunch of them flying around, where exactly will they be taking off and landing. Because airports in urban areas already have severe noise problems.

    3. Re:Aurora? by Bob+Vila's+Hammer · · Score: 2, Informative

      How could a helicopter replace the SR-71?

      Most likely, as was proven during the secrecy of the Stealth program (Have Blue) in the late 70's - early 80's, this project was the source of rumors for the Aurora Spyplane.

      --


      --"The perfect example of the man of action is the suicide." - William Carlos Williams
  2. Knee-slapper by Faust7 · · Score: 3, Funny

    'Pulse detonation is a hot topic in combustion research,' says Gabriel Roy of the Office of Naval Research.

    Sounds like they're strained for humor over there.

    1. Re:Knee-slapper by I+don't+want+to+spen · · Score: 5, Funny

      Don't start a 'flame' war ...

      --
      Don't go to a brothel if you want to buy broth
  3. untill the valves wear out by temojen · · Score: 5, Funny

    most of them probably won't make it across the english channel.

    1. Re:untill the valves wear out by Dan+East · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I assume that is a reference to one of the first successful long range rockets - the Nazi V-1 "buzz" bombs. They were powered by a very simple pulse jet engine, where many small explosions inside a one-way chamber would propel the rocket. Launched from Nazi-controlled France, the V-1s would cross the channel and eventually fall from the sky somewhere in the rough vicinity of their targets in Britain. As long as the buzz of the engine could be heard those on the ground knew they were safe. However if the sound stopped then it was only a brief matter of time before the rocket would fall from the sky and detonate.

      Dan East

      --
      Better known as 318230.
    2. Re:untill the valves wear out by temojen · · Score: 5, Informative

      ok, once again.... the V1 was a missile propelled by a jet engine, not a rocket. A rocket carries it's own oxidizer with it. The V2 was a missile propelled by a rocket.

      Neither was the first successfull guided missile, and the V2 was not the first successfull Liquid-Fueled Rocket. The germans had wire-guided air-launched anti-ship missiles before either.

    3. Re:untill the valves wear out by MyHair · · Score: 2, Informative

      Definitionally, what differentiates a pulse-jet engine from a rocket?

      As the grandparent post says (and you even quote it), a rocket carries its own oxidizer. A jet uses atmospheric air for its oxygen supply. Illustration: Rockets can potentially work in space or underwater whereas jets can't.

      Perhaps you were thinking about turbine engine fan propulsion versus exhaust gas only propulsion? In that case pulse-jet and rockets are similar.

    4. Re:untill the valves wear out by KoshClassic · · Score: 2, Informative
      Actually a rocket being a "one-shot" affair is not necessarily true - it depends on the type of rocket - solid fuel or liquid fuel.

      Solid rockets are basically long tubes, open on one end, filled with solid propellants. Once they're ignited they keep going until the fuel is exhausted - there is no way to stop the combustion easily. Think solid rocket booster on the space shuttle.

      Liquid fueled rockets, on the other hand, use liquid propellants and oxidizers, fed into the engine from storage tanks through a system of pumps and valves. They can more or less be started, stopped, and throttled at will by controlling the rate of fuel / oxidizer flow through manipulation of these pumps and valves. The main engines on the space shuttle are liquid fueled rockets.

      --
      Understanding is a three edged sword. - Ambassador Kosh Naranek, Babylon 5
  4. Doughnut on a rope by mhesseltine · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Would this system possibly be the type of propulsion that produced the infamous "doughnut on a rope" vapor trail? If so, then this technology has been in development for quite a while. </fox_mulder>

    --
    Overrated / Underrated : Moderation :: Anonymous Coward : Posting
    1. Re:Doughnut on a rope by myklgrant · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Actually the doughnut on a rope trail is probably from a regular jet. I watched the contrail of a 4-engine jet (probably a 747) at altitude coalesce into a perfect doughnut on a rope trail. It was almost exactly like that in the picture. Until then I had been a believer in Aurora. I've never been so disappointed in all my life ;)

    2. Re:Doughnut on a rope by mnemonic_ · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Are you actually trying to propose this as a new theory, or did you read it somewhere else and are pretending to have come up with it? I have never read a description of the "donuts on a rope" contrail without an accompanying description of pulse jets, and the connection is incredibly obvious.

      And why is this type of contrail "infamous"?

  5. Pulse *detonation*? by neostorm · · Score: 4, Funny

    "...But there are big engineering issues--thermal fatigue, noise..." ...Potential explosions...

    1. Re:Pulse *detonation*? by Waffle+Iron · · Score: 4, Interesting
      "...But there are big engineering issues--thermal fatigue, noise..." ...Potential explosions...

      That reminds me of the quote from Colonel Albert Pope in the 1890s (owner of one of the first electric car companies): Internal combustion engines will never take off because "people won't want to sit on top of an explosion".

  6. I wonder by anethema · · Score: 4, Informative

    If any research is beeing done into the bladeless (Tesla) turbine?

    The bladeless turbine pump is hailed as the best thing to hit industrial pumps ever.

    All you need to reverse the intake and exaust and it is an engine (was orignally designed as an engine)

    Pulse detonation seems to be the best way to power these turbines. Tesla claims over 10 horsepower to the pound of engine weight.

    With this horsepower to weight ratio, I wonder what could be acomplished using this instead of a conventional turbine.

    More info on the tesla turbine here.

    --


    It's easier to fight for one's principles than to live up to them.
    1. Re:I wonder by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      "Tesla claims over 10 horsepower to the pound of engine weight."

      He also claimed to be able to send electricity through the ground without wires controllably for six miles. In the biik "the fantastic inventions of tesla" there are a lot of fantastic but groundless claims he made such as earthquake machines etc.

    2. Re:I wonder by SubjunctiveSam · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Hmmm, Hey check this out:

      Chrysler Corporation Turbine Car

      There were actually put into limited production, but then the 70's fuel shortage ended and no one cared enough to have them actually made en masse, if I recall correctly.

    3. Re:I wonder by anethema · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Considering his inventions (AC power, 3 phase power, the transformer, modern radio,electromagnetic motors, fluorescent lighting etc etc etc), I think he was a pretty smart guy. I wouldnt dismiss out of hand the things that he's talked about just because you dont understand how it works.

      Not only that, it is very easy to build a tesla turbine, and pictures exist with witness comments on the one that tesla built getting almost 10hp per pound.

      That, and the tesla turbine only has 1 moving part. The disks spinning inside the housing. Sounds like it makes for a pretty reliable engine to me.

      --


      It's easier to fight for one's principles than to live up to them.
    4. Re:I wonder by JeanBaptiste · · Score: 3, Funny
      Considering his inventions (AC power)


      well if you can get power from an Anonymous Coward, slashdot should have the energy market cornered...
    5. Re:I wonder by clbyjack81 · · Score: 3, Informative

      >>there are a lot of fantastic but groundless claims he >>[Tesla] made such as earthquake machines etc.

      Actually, the earthquake machine was a reality. It was a small box that would be attached to a structural I-beam in a building. It had a small hammer that would tap the beam, then wait for the crest of the vibration wave to pass under the hammer at which point it would tap again. This process repeated until the beam was shaking quite violently. Police were actually called to his workshop at one point because he was distrubing the neighborhood with the ground tremors (earthquake) that the vibrating beam caused.

      See "Tesla: Man out of Time" by Margaret Cheney for a fascinating biography of Tesla.

      --
      Cole's Axiom: The sum of the intelligence on the planet is a constant. The population is growing.
  7. Also great for interstellar travel by mkweise · · Score: 4, Interesting

    To quote from Wikipedia:

    Nuclear pulse propulsion is a proposed method of spacecraft propulsion that uses nuclear explosions for thrust. It was briefly developed as Project Orion by ARPA. It was invented by Stanislaw Ulam in 1957, and is the invention of which he was most proud.

    Calculations show that this form of rocket would combine both high thrust and a high specific impulse, a rarity in rocket design. Specific impulses from 2000 (easy, yet ten times chemical specific impulses) to 100,000 (requires specialized nuclear explosives and spacecraft design) are possible, with thrusts in the millions of tons.

    --
    Gentlemen! You can't fight in here, this is the War Room!
    1. Re:Also great for interstellar travel by IowaFarmer41 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It would have allowed us to launch battleship-sized manned spacecraft to cruise the solar system in the 1960s. But MacNamara's leftists got the nuclear test ban through. :-(((

      I wonder if today inertially confined fission of rail-gun fired bb-sized pellets of uranium might work even better, if only used in LOE and above?

  8. Ellison can't do it, neither can these folks by Dancin_Santa · · Score: 5, Interesting

    In America (the leading consumer of air travel) the FAA has limits on the noise level generated by an airport. From the article, this is such a big problem that the development of this engine in passenger aircraft may be halted because of the inability to dampen the noise output. Strictly speaking, this is going to be a rocket engine, not an passenger jet engine. It probably won't even be a military jet engine either, the military doesn't like their pilots deaf.

    The FAA rules were never a big problem for me, though. The reindeer are fairly silent except for the actual landing part.

    1. Re:Ellison can't do it, neither can these folks by Reverberant · · Score: 5, Interesting
      FAA has limits on the noise level generated by an airport.

      A lot (if not most) of the aviation authorities around the world set noise limits for aviation noise, including the EU and the U.K. What's interesting is that the FAA and various airports have more or less mandated the phase-out of noisier airplanes (Stage 1 & Stage 2 aircraft). If these planes wind up being noisier than the current Stage 3 aircraft, the U.S. air industry is gonna be tied up in lawsuits for a looong time.

      Also, commercial supersonic flights over the continental U.S. are banned partly for noise reasons. Sonic booms are not good things for people and animals over the long term. I would assume that supersonic flights would be restricted to intercontinental travel.

      It probably won't even be a military jet engine either, the military doesn't like their pilots deaf.

      FYI, U.S. military jets tend to be much louder than commercial jets. Military jets are designed for performance, not environmental-friendliness.

    2. Re:Ellison can't do it, neither can these folks by ndogg · · Score: 2, Funny

      Why have you been keeping the reindeer propulsion system a secret from the world? You should really consider putting it under the GPL for the world to benefit. Yeah, I know, you got laughed at when you tried to sell it, and so you see no potential profit from it, but that's exactly the reason why you need to GPL it! If you GPL your tech, then once people stop laughing, they'll see that's it actually works. The world could really use something like that.

      If you can get presents to all the world's children in one night, you certainly have something that can move faster than anything we have now.

      Speaking of children, I'm going to be taking care of a child this Christmas and he really, really wants a new NVidia card. Maybe you could come here early and drop it off so I can make sure it works on our computer! I'll be sure to not let him see it before Christmas, promise!

      --
      // file: mice.h
      #include "frickin_lasers.h"
    3. Re:Ellison can't do it, neither can these folks by photon317 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Actually it looks like it is intended for 10,000 different things, whatever might make some investors ees flash green. Like all new technologies, you promise they can solve all the world's ails to get development money, then you end up applying your research to a few narrow fields in the real world at the end.

      --
      11*43+456^2
    4. Re:Ellison can't do it, neither can these folks by StressGuy · · Score: 3, Interesting

      From earlier post:

      "...I would assume that supersonic flights would be restricted to intercontinental travel...."

      Yup, that is correct. However, the actual regulation has been interpreted in the past to mean that you cannot create a shockwave at ground level. When the BD-10J kitplane was available (capable of Mach 1.6 at altitude), the argument was made that it was so small that, even at Mach 1.6, the shockwave it created would dissipate before getting to ground level.

      I don't recall how far that argument went and there is no BD-10J anymore. Not to mention that commercial/militiary aircraft will be a lot bigger. Still, interesting interpretation.

      All of this may be mute though, assuming they solve lifespan, flow-field, and tuning issues; it's still going to be noisy as hell unless they also plan to use some sort of active system to destructively interfere with the noise - and that will cost energy.

      best of luck to them though....very intriguing problem.

      --
      A goal is a dream with a deadline
    5. Re:Ellison can't do it, neither can these folks by delus10n0 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If you actually pick up a copy of Popular Science and read the article, they talk about making a "hybrid" system-- pulse detonation coupled with a regular jet (as found on 747's, etc.) The pulse detonation would occur on the outside of the turbines, where some fuel is wasted. The fuel is simply detonated again, providing even more power for your buck. I'm sure the noise level would be negligible, especially once one is up in the air.

      --
      Not All Who Wander Are Lost
  9. Re:Ummm... by quasi_steller · · Score: 5, Informative

    Yep, you should go RTFA. PDE is very explosive. The idea was first thought of in the 1930's. The article says that the Germans tried it on the V-1 rocket, but didn't succede. The article states that detonation is different from deflagration. I don't know what the internal combustion engine uses, but PDE is very complicated and has only recently been showing signs of success.

    --
    ...interesting if true.
  10. If it pans out... by ReyTFox · · Score: 4, Funny

    ...we might finally get affordable supersonic jet transportation?

    I can't stand flights of over an hour or two myself, and it would probably encourage even greater mobility then we have today if it's cheap enough. For example, transcontinental dating.

  11. DIY Pulse Jet (and Missile) by femto · · Score: 3, Interesting
    Maybe Bruce Simpson in New Zealand has the lead on them? He's been building pulse jets for years and even has DIY plans for one. He's considering covering the design with th GPL. Imagine that, a GPLd jet engine!

    Yes, he is the guy of DIY cruise missile fame.

    1. Re:DIY Pulse Jet (and Missile) by Mattsson · · Score: 4, Informative

      A pulse jet and a pulse detonation engine is not the same thing.
      Pulse jet's was what the germans used in their "buzz-bombs" during WWII.
      As far as I've been able to conclude the greatest difference is in the burnrate of the fuel.
      In a pulse jet you have a series of "slow" burns or explotions at a fairly low rate.
      In a pulse detonation engine you've got insanely fast burns (hence "detonation") at serveral hundred detonations per second.
      One of the greatest enginering tasks was apparently to be able to not only achieve a detonation instead of a burn or explosion, but to also do this continously at a high rate.

      --
      /.Mattsson - My native language is not English, so please don't whine over linguistic errors. (That's lame anyway...)
    2. Re:DIY Pulse Jet (and Missile) by NewtonsLaw · · Score: 3, Informative

      Bruce's pulse jets are very low-tech, deflagration engines

      Not strictly true. Although simple, the X-Jet design is not really "very low-tech" -- a lot of time and money has been invested in analysing a phenomenon called "high magnitude combustion" which, while not "detonation" still provides combustion efficiencies almost three times higher than the deflagration that occurs in a conventional pulsejet.

      Whereas the flame-front in a normal pulsejet travels at just a few tens of meters per second, HMC occurs with a flame-front that travels at the speed of sound in the air/fuel mixture.

      While this is still well short of the Mach 5-6 flamefront that is produced in a PDE, the X-Jet using HMC is an engine that can be produced now in commercial quantities and with power to weight ratios that make it an extremely viable source of propulsion for a wide range of flying craft.

      The other advantage is that it can be manufactured at a much lower cost than a PDE and without many of the other problems.

  12. Re:Ummm... by dreadnougat · · Score: 5, Informative

    from the article:

    " Imagine a tube, closed at one end and filled with a mixture of fuel and air. A spark ignites the fuel at the closed end, and a combustion reaction propagates down the tube. In deflagration?even in "fast flame" situations ordinarily called explosions?that reaction moves at tens of meters per second at most. But in detonation, a supersonic shock wave slams down the tube at thousands of meters per second, close to Mach 5, compressing and igniting fuel and air almost instantaneously in a narrow, high-pressure, heat-release zone. "

  13. I'll fix it for you; Parent's link is to: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    http://www.wam.umd.edu/~ojenkins/words/donuts.html

  14. Did my thesis on PDE's by RcktMan77 · · Score: 5, Informative

    I actually did my Master's Research on a Pulsed Detonation Engine (Rocket actually, since we were providing the oxygen). It is a more efficient form of propulsion (for thermo geeks, detonation can be modeled by a constant volume Humphrey thermo cycle, rather than the constant pressure Brayton cycle and a comparison of efficiencies results in a vast improvement for the pulsed detonation engine). It certainly isn't too new as far as the idea being thrown around, but it certainly is gaining momentum as being more and more plausible. Aside from the efficiency benefits, the engine itself results in a much simpler design and weight savings rather than relying on today's complex turbomachinery. Furthermore, pulsed detonation engines offer the potential for substantiative performance increases; finally bringing hypersonic flight to within a practical reach. A detonation is different than a deflagration in basically the speed at which combustion occurs. Deflagration occurs at relatively low flame speeds on the order of 1 or 2 m/sec.; whereas, detonation is a supersonic mode of combustion. Most forms of combustion that we are familiar with today utilize the deflagrative mode. The article was accurate in stating that this technology still has a few hurdles to overcome. Primarily, the pulsed detonation engine is an unsteady flow phenomenon that requires a periodic input to control fuel injection into the detonation chamber coupled with a very large energy input to ignite the fuel and reach a critical Chapman-Jouguet velocity. Such energy input has been accomplished so far using an arc igniter, but doing so on a reliable basis at frequencies of at least 100Hz, necessary for practical use have been somewhat of a challenge thus far.

    1. Re:Did my thesis on PDE's by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Maybe you know more about PDEs than I do, but everything I've read on ACTUAL engines show much lower efficiency for PDEs than either turbojets or Ramjets. There seems to be a midrange where they are competitive, but for >Mach 2.3 for Ramjets and Compression ratios greater than 4 in turbojets, PDEs lose out.

      PDEs have two major advantages:
      They're simple, which means if you only want to use it once, the cost is potentially lower than a turbojet, and there are fewer ways in which it can fail.

      You can pump in a lot of fuel, even above stoichiometric, to get large thrusts at the expense of efficiency.

      PDEs have great potential, but they're a long way from challenging either turbojets or ramjets yet.

      Tony.

    2. Re:Did my thesis on PDE's by zobier · · Score: 2, Informative

      Some of the guys on the Pulse Engine forum suggested using a blank ammunition cartrige to achieve the necessary starting energy.

      Z ;)

      --
      Me lost me cookie at the disco.
  15. Combine pulse-detonation with hyper-acoustics by mikeophile · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I don't know if they are already doing so, but it seems a natural match to use something like this in conjunction with a pulsejet.

  16. Rather good article by Perdition · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I think that several such paradigm shift in several disciplines must occur in order to keep space exploration viable in the near future. I am always impressed by the near-wishful thinking that MUST occur before science leaps forward. Plus, they're competing for juicy government contracts, and that always greases the wheel.

    --
    Windows XP SP2 told me to install third-party software that prevents viruses and protects stability... I chose Ubuntu
  17. video of a homemade pulse jet on SF street by obtuse · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Yes, the V1 was a pulse jet. Also, if you ever saw ads for a jet powered helicopter in the back of Popular Mechanics magazine years ago, I think those were pulse jets too.

    Mark Pauline of SRL built one of these & set it off in San Francisco's Mission district as a fiery noisemaker. Video here:
    SRL Pulse Jet Demo
    Now that's art!

    Basically you're igniting the fuel air mixture in front of a set of one-way shutters that are closed by the detonating mixture. After the mixture detonates, there is a consequent vacuum created that sucks more air through the shutters to mix with the incoming fuel. Repeat very rapidly. Similar principle as the old pop-pop boat child's toy

    You don't see them much because the noise is awful and the stresses on the materials are very high.

    --
    Assembly is the reverse of disassembly.
  18. I saw a prototype of a pulse detonation engine... by daves · · Score: 2, Interesting

    At the Dayton Air Show. It was mounted on a small UAV-sized plane. It consisted of a standard block from a 4 cylinder car engine with the bottom half, including crankshaft and pistons, removed. Each cylinder had a four foot or so exhaust pipe welded to the bottom of it, pointing to the rear. It ran like a normal engine, but exhausted the explosions directly, instead of pushing on the pistons.

    The weird part - a whole other engine was needed to run the valve cams.

    They were pitching it as a cheap, reliable replacement for things like disposable UAVs and cruise missiles, in the short term.

    It sure looked loud.

    --
    People who disagree with you are not automatically evil, greedy, or stupid.
  19. PDE propulsion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    Is this what they are talking about? Dr. Fun

  20. Oshkosh demo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    The AirForce research guys demoed a pulsejet made out of automotive parts at Oshkosh this year. There's a link and a picture at Avweb

  21. USAF by n1nj4k3n · · Score: 5, Informative

    The United States Air Force Research Lab Propulsion Directorate has a pulse detonation engine program as well. Pics and story here. Apparently their engine is made mostly of off-the-shelf automotive parts. It's powered by any type of general aviation fuel (Jet-A, JP-8), and even gasoline.

  22. Wrong type of propulsion by Alereon · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The article discusses using thrust pulses from combustible propellant, not the nuclear explosions of scifi lore.

  23. Just another in a long line.... by OYAHHH · · Score: 2

    If,

    You were to go through your issues of PS you would find an incredible amount of "wonderful engineering" that never ever shows up anywhere.

    It's seems like there is at least a once a year issue of PS that specifically describes a stupendous advance in airships that's gonna haul all of the world's heavy objects.

    Usually some big white triangular airship. Seen any of those lately. You get my drift....

    --
    Caution: Contents under pressure
  24. Big engineering issues by SnappingTurtle · · Score: 5, Funny
    But there are big engineering issues--thermal fatigue, noise.

    I suspect that "blowing shit up" is another one of those big issues.

    --
    I've found that my posts don't format quite right w/o a sig.
  25. Dual-system by phorm · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Allowing it to burn fuel for localized (low) flight and explode it to explode for fast-acceleration/long-distance (high altitude) flight might perhaps solve this? Of course, I'm not sure how much work or overhead it would be to create a system that allows both methods to be used....

  26. Re:Ummm... by cowlum1 · · Score: 3, Informative

    If your car is detonating its not gonna last long. When a car engine detonates the shock wave produced often destroys the engines internals, or atleast causes some damage.

    A cars combustion engine when working normally uses deflagation to produce power. Its easy smooth and works well. The octain or lead (1980) in petrol helps prevent detonation.

    --


    some peoples moderation does not include weed
  27. Tesla was smart, but also a nutjob by SuperBanana · · Score: 4, Interesting
    Considering his inventions (AC power, 3 phase power, the transformer, modern radio,electromagnetic motors, fluorescent lighting etc etc etc), I think he was a pretty smart guy. I wouldnt dismiss out of hand the things that he's talked about just because you dont understand how it works.

    Except that Tesla also thought we should 'beam' electrical power through the air by generating masive RF fields; you'd have a big RF generator in the center of town, and everyone would have magical antennas that harvested this magnetic energy. Instead of, say, just laying down some wire underground or on poles. It's a good thing he isn't around today, because the tin-foil-hat wearing anti-cell-phone-tower freaks would tear him apart.

    If anything, some of the 'greatest' minds of our time have also had some of the 'greatest' moments of stupidity. For example, Edison(who strongly believed DC was much safer, outweighing transmission problems) was mostly responsible for death by electrocution; he figured the public would be shocked by how easily a man was killed by AC, and would fear it as a result...putting an end to Tesla, who was quickly taking Edison Electric to the cleaners, with more efficient generation and transmission.

    It backfired, massively- it amounted to torture and the man was electrocuted repeatedly and at length before finally dying; it literally cooked him alive and at times they had to stop and put out the fires on his body. Those who witnessed it were indeed horrified beyond belief. Common view was that AC was NOT lethal, and Edison was responsible for the slow death, rather than the quick painless instant killer he had promised.

    1. Re:Tesla was smart, but also a nutjob by anethema · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Some of his ideas certinaly do sound like quackery.
      BUT

      Some of the quackiest ideas were built, photographed and demonstrated.

      I dont get how he is dismissed as a quack so often. Im sure something called a death ray dindt help, but he never invented something he couldnt demonstrate. Considering he is one of the fathers of the era you live in now (much more than edison) you should give him some more credit.

      --


      It's easier to fight for one's principles than to live up to them.
    2. Re:Tesla was smart, but also a nutjob by grandpohbah · · Score: 2, Informative

      For example, Edison(who strongly believed DC was much safer, outweighing transmission problems) was mostly responsible for death by electrocution; he figured the public would be shocked by how easily a man was killed by AC, and would fear it as a result...putting an end to Tesla, who was quickly taking Edison Electric to the cleaners, with more efficient generation and transmission.

      Actually Edision had it in for George Westinghouse (not Tesla) when he aided in the creation of the electric chair, leading to the once popular, though short lived term "Westinghoused" for someone who was executed in the chair.

      After the first electrocution, which didn't exactly go off without a hitch, Westinghouse was quoted as saying "they could have done it better with an axe".

  28. Re:More than one problem by benjamindees · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Metal Hydrides can store Hydrogen at densities greater than even solid Hydrogen. Of course, the hydride weighs 10x the amount of Hydrogen it can store, so I don't know if it would be practical for use on airplanes, but it's definitely space-efficient and safe.

    I don't know why people think creating Hydrogen is expensive, either. Electrolyzers can be made anywhere from 80 to 90% efficient. Of course, electricity isn't as cheap as gasoline, but Hydrogen could be produced during off-peak times. I'm sure it would be comparable to or cheaper than highly-refined jet fuel.

    --
    "I assumed blithely that there were no elves out there in the darkness"
  29. Safety Issues by Air-conditioned+cowh · · Score: 5, Funny

    I notice in the pictures that the lady standing next to the engine on the second page has no head.

    An engine that decapitates people is certainly very injurous to health.

  30. Let me explain. I should know, I *wrote* it. by WaldoUMCp · · Score: 4, Informative

    Nope, I wasn't smoking anything at the time.

    I originally wrote that paper for an Honors Seminar at the University of Maryland. It was called Science and Pseudoscience: An Investigative Approach. Pretty nifty class that helped you to look at things differently. I'm not sure what the conspiracy angle is that you're talking about aside from it discussing aircraft technologies that are still under wraps. As you can see from the bibliography section of the report I wrote, Popular Science and other news organizations have known about the existence of this technology for a while. More than a decade in fact.

    Space craft take off using a continuous propulsion system in the form of gasses leaving the rocket. The force exerted by a pulse-detonation engine is more powerful than a continuous propulsion system when it comes to force exerted over a smaller amount of time. Also by having a series of detonations instead of a continuous burn, the craft doesn't have as many problem when it comes to ignitions back-tracking up the fuel supply lines to the main fuel storage area.

  31. Re:I saw a prototype of a pulse detonation engine. by Dirtside · · Score: 5, Funny
    It sure looked loud.
    Ah, but the real question is, did it sound big?
    --
    "Destroy science and religion. Science would re-emerge exactly the same; but not religion." - Penn Jillette, paraphrased
  32. Re:Ummm... by good+soldier+svejk · · Score: 4, Informative

    Actually the V-1 wasn't a rocket. It was a pulse jet powered cruise missile. A pulsejet is sort of like a ramjet with venetian blinds on the air intake, It fires in pulses rather than a continuous stream. Unlike a ramjets, pulsejets can be started while standing still.

    --
    It is cowardly, and a betrayal of whatever it means to be a Jew, to act as a white man

    -James Baldwin
  33. Grandmother by Kethinov · · Score: 2, Funny
    would chop fuel consumption by an amount that engineers would "kill their grandmothers" to get, Lidstone jokes
    I sure hope his grandmother wasn't reading that...
    --
    You're right, I wouldn't steal a car. But if it were possible, I sure as hell would download one!
  34. Re:comparison with scramjets? by twostar · · Score: 2, Informative

    scramjets are completely different. They work on a principle of compressing the incoming air and then using a combustion chamber to blow it out the back at higher speeds. The big difference is that the air intake is compressed down slightly and that the combustion chamber has a constant combustion going on.

    A pulsejet/detonation engine uses the previous detonation to compress the air/oxidizer for the next one. I've seen some designs with two outputs, it actually just oscillates between them. It's in a U shape and the detonation on one side send the shockwave to the otherside to compress that detonation.

    Here's a good site with pics and even audio of pulsejet engines. http://home3.inet.tele.dk/kennethm/ There's also a section on ramjets which are just variants of scramjets for slower speeds.

    This PDF has the osciliatory pulsejet design with pics starting on about page 5 or 6. The link is from the Valveless Pulsejet Engine article linked under pulsejets in the above site.

  35. Re:Ummm... by Zog+The+Undeniable · · Score: 2, Informative
    Octane ratings are a little more complicated than that. Leaving aside the fact that there are two ways to measure octane ratings, the idea is to get as many branched molecules such as iso-octane (2,2,4-trimethylpentane) into the fuel as possible, as these burn more slowly than straight-chain molecules such as heptane (which explodes if you look at it too hard).

    In the UK this is done by catalytic reforming to produce benzene and other ring-shaped molecules. This certainly gets the octane rating up to 95 or 97 ("premium" and "super" unleaded respectively) but, from a health point of view, may actually be more harmful than a bit of lead bromide in the exhaust. The alleged link between lead in exhaust fumes and childhood development was always hard to prove, although lead itself is undeniably toxic in the wrong forms. Benzene is carcinogenic in any quantity. We may have swapped one problem for another.

    As an aside, a friend of mine worked at a factory where they had a lot of bulk benzene available - all the managers were running their cars on a 50/50 mix of benzene and unleaded petrol. Naughty.

    --
    When I am king, you will be first against the wall.
  36. Scary picture by tsa · · Score: 2, Funny

    Have you seen the very weird picture of a woman with no head and a deformed right arm on page 2 of the article? I wonder if she stood too close when the engine was switched on.

    --

    -- Cheers!

  37. Re:Manned V1 by hplasm · · Score: 5, Informative
    The Luftwaffe did in fact have several working pulse-jet powered fighter planes operating, as prototypes towards the end of the war (Heinkel 162B, for example) . The pilots found them 'interesting' but workable. Plans found after the war included multi-enined pulse-jet fighters which were somw of Hitler's 'superweapons' which would have changed the outcome of the war, if it hadn't been ended when it did.

    Google for German Pulse Jet Fighters...

    --
    ...and he grinned, like a fox eating shit out of a wire brush.
  38. Noise - is this really a problem? by Inflatable+Hippo · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Assuming for a moment that it's possible to get this technology to work, the question of noise has been raised as a show stopper with regards it's commercial use.

    But two things spring to mind:

    1) Stealth aircraft use noise damping technology, and some of this might be appropriate even for this weird engine.

    2) Conventional engines will probably have to be used for take off and landing anyway. These can be commercial low-noise devices that just get the plane to/from off-shore locations where it can fire up it's PD engines.

    Just make sure you've finished your complementary drink at that point or you'll be wearing it for the rest of the flight...

  39. Re:Noise - is this really a problem? YOU BET! by NewtonsLaw · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I don't think you'll *ever* see a PDE in use on a passenger jet -- mainly because of the noise and vibration problem.

    When a PDE fires it doesn't just make a loud noise, it produces a train of supersonic shock waves that transfer vastly more energy than a regular acoustic (sound) wave.

    Standing in reasonable proximity (10 yards or so) of a large (but conventional) pulsejet will give you a really bad headache even if you're wearing hearing protection -- because the amplitude of the acoustic wave generated is so great that it hammers your skull and your body.

    It really surprises a lot of people when I demonstrate a very large pulsejet to them. They say that they feel it right to the core of their body and, despite using grade 5 hearing protection, their ears ring afterwards.

    Now multiply that by an order of magnitude (as is the case with a PDE) and you find that anyone within spitting distance will suffer actual physical harm consisting (at worst) damage to internal organs and (at best) concussion and damage to the inner ear as the shockwaves bash on your skull like a ball-peen hammer.

    I seem to recall the article mentioning that the shockwaves from the demo engine were still causing discomfort after passing through a concrete barrier?

    And, to be quite honest, I have to say that I don't think the engine attached to the Long-EZ and shown running in the video was actually producing true detonations at all.

    Now tell me how many airline passengers will pay good money to ride on a jackhammer, even if it is a supersonic jackhammer.

    I believe the real market for PDEs is unmanned aerial vehicles (including missiles) and as the airbreathing stage of LEO vehicles used for scientific or military purposes.

  40. Deflagration versus Detonation (an explanation) by NewtonsLaw · · Score: 5, Informative

    To demonstrate the difference between a deflagration (the slow combustion you get in your auto engine or a pulsejet) and detonation (the rapid combusiton that occurs in a PDE) I like to draw the following comparison.

    1. Take a can of gasoline and pour a trail on the ground as you walk along. That trail might end up being 20-30 yards long.

    Above that trail there is a stoichiometric mixture (ie: a mixture capable of burning) of gasoline vapor and air -- just as you'd find inside an engine.

    Now light one end of the trail and watch how long it takes for the flame to travel along to the far end.

    It actually takes several seconds. That's the speed of a flame-front during deflagration.

    2. Now take a very long piece of cordite or some other "high explosive" and lay it along the ground for some distance.

    Then place a detonator at one end, stand well back and energize it.

    The entire length of the explosive will appear to explode at once. The shockwave that propogates the explosion down the length of explosive material will travel far to quickly for you to see. Instead of taking several seconds to travel just 20-30 yards, the detonation will travel over a mile per SECOND or faster.

    That's the difference in speed between deflagration and detonation.

    But there's one other very important difference:

    If you pour a gallon of gasoline out onto the ground and light it it will go "woof" (just like a dog :-).

    You can safely stand within just a few yards of such a deflagration without fear of being harmed.

    However, if you were to *detonate* (rather than deflagrate) that same amount of gasoline it would blow you right into the middle of next week and further.

    With a detonation, all the available energy is released in a very tiny fraction of a second and this generates huge pressures (thus huge thrust).

    With deflagration, the energy is released far more gradually so the pressures are lower.

    What's more, because deflagration is such a slow process, when the fuel is burnt inside an engine, there's far more time for the heat of combustion to be transfered to the engine itself. That means the engine will require more cooling and a greater percentage of the fuel's energy will be wasted as radiated heat rather than in producing work.

    I hope that clarifies the key differences between deflagration and detonation -- and goes some way to explaining why a PDE could provide greater efficiencies than an engine that simply "burns" its fuel through deflagration.

  41. H works well in IC engines by MZdoctor · · Score: 2, Insightful

    1. A gas turbine is an IC engine.

    2. Various IC piston engines have successfully been converted to operate reliably with hydrogen decades ago.

    3. Although H2 permits high compression ratios, it does not require them. The same applies to LPG.

    4. The main obstacle is therefore not satisfactory engine operation, but the hydrogen infrastructure.

  42. Pulse jet engines are not pulse detonation engines by mnemonic_ · · Score: 3, Informative

    Let me repeat: pulse jets are not pulse detonation jets. Unlike pulse detonation jets, pure pulse jet research efforts have been all but abandoned as they were concluded to be too inefficent and overall inferior to any other jet design.

    Pulse jets are composed of a combustion section, a set of inlet shutters and an exhaust valve. Air enters the combustion chamber and the inlet shutters closes, forcing the combusting fuel-air mixture out through the exhaust valve, producing thrust. Pulse detonation jets have no such valves.

  43. Yawn yawn! how about a pulse jet go-kart by tombrown · · Score: 2, Funny

    http://www.aardvark.co.nz/pjet/gokart.htm

  44. The Future of Aviation by amightywind · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Pulse Detonation Engines: The Future of Aviation

    The German V1, which first flew in the late 1930's, used pulse detonation. At the time it was considered to be the future of aviation

    --
    an ill wind that blows no good
    1. Re:The Future of Aviation by GameMaster · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The V1 did not use "Pulse Detonation". It was a pulse-jet engine that relied on a pulsing deflagration process to produce thrust. Not to be a complete jerk, but you would have known this had you actually read the article.

      The difference between detonation and deflagration is a matter of how fast the fuel burns. Deflagration, which is what happens in your car, is a buringing of the fuel that is fast but is still not faster that the speed of sound. A true detonation is a burning of fuel that creates a blast wave that travels faster than the speed of sound.

      Consequently, this is what happens in cars when you use fuel with too low an octane rating for the engine's compression ratio. The whole purpose of the octane rating is to tell you how easy it is to make the fuel detonate as opposed to deflagrate. Piston engines are designed to run using deflagration because the piston can't physically respond fast enought to a true detonation. This causes a knocking sound that signals the fact that your engine is gradually destroying it's self.

      This can happen when you use low octane fuel in an average car engine or when you use medium octane fuel in a high performance engine that has a high compression ratio. In other words, people add things like supechargers and turbochargers to cars in order to improve the compression ration and, thus, the performance. Some people actually put sensors in their engines to figure out exactly how close to detonating their fuel is so that they can raise their compression ratio as high as humanly possible without actually causing detonation. I think those are called Hall or Hal sensors, but I could be wrong about that.

      To bring it back to the topic of the V1, the article does mention that the designers of the V1 were originally hoping to reach some form of detonation but eventually settle for the slower, and less fuel efficient, deflagration process because they just could not achieve it. In the end it is probably for the best, or I should say the worst for the allies, that they gave up on detonation.

      One of the big problems for V1 style pulse-jet designs is that they rely on valves to allow fuel and air into the combustion chamber. Because the combustion cycle of those engines (even when resticted to deflagration) is so fast, they were forced to rely of extremely light valves in order to be able to have them open and close rapidly enough (for the same reason that a heavy piston can't handle the forces of detonating fuel).

      Unfortunaly, light weight valves like that (even ones made with today's alloys) just can't stand up to being beaten around like that for very long which gives those kinds of engines extremely short lifetimes (on the order of hours at the most). From what I've heard the V1 would often fail before it even traveled long enough to reach the island of Britain. Had they been able to create a true detonantion process in the engine, chance are that it would have lasted for a much much shorter amount of time thus making the engine almost useless.

      -GameMaster

      --

      Rules of Conduct:
      #1 - The DM is always right.
      #2 - If the DM is wrong, see rule #1
  45. Umm, one problem... by gillbates · · Score: 2, Insightful
    and a "predetonator" on each tube, which uses, supplemental oxygen, ethylene fuel and a Ferrari spark plug to kick-start detonation...[emphasis mine]

    IIRC, Ethylene oxide and oxygen are the primary ingredients in the fuel-air bomb. So, yeah, I would expect the equivalent of an open-ended bomb to produce more thrust than a conventional jet engine. I'll be more impressed when they can do this without supplemental oxygen, bomb fuel, and a large compressor to "simulate mach 4 speeds".

    Granted, it sounds promising, but as of yet they haven't managed to build a prototype which can run on conventional fuels (hydrocarbon based, ethyl alcohol, etc...). Furthermore, the article states that these engine may someday produce power from near standstill to hypersonic speeds, yet their prototype can't run at less than mach4, and requires supplemental O2 at that. Quite frankly, the ramjet designs of the 80's showed more promise than PDEs.

    --
    The society for a thought-free internet welcomes you.
  46. Oshkosh by ptomblin · · Score: 2, Interesting

    At Oshkosh, there was somebody showing a VariEze with a Pulse Detonation Wave engine. I didn't catch whether it had actually flown with it. I took some pictures here.
    Don't be fooled by the USAF markings on the plane - I didn't see any indication that it had any sort connection to the military.

    --
    The next Cmdr Taco duplicate will be ready soon, but subscribers can beat the rush and see it early!
  47. Far far too soon. by VendettaMF · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Our materials technology currently lags too far behind current levels of commercial flight tech. As long as "metal fatigue" can be used as an explanation or even part of an explanation for something going wrong in any field of human endeavour we should all be keeping our feet firmly on the ground.

    --
    kartune85 : Incapable of reason, observation or learning. A kind of dim, drab, flightless parrot.
  48. "Fasten your seat belts, we will Detonate.. by BigGerman · · Score: 2, Funny

    ...any moment now!"

  49. Re:Aurora?-Flying a "tuna"-fish by fehlschlag · · Score: 2, Funny

    Three things:
    Heat expansion of metals.
    Pipe-organs.
    Fluidics.
    I'll leave the rest to you


    PROFIT?

  50. Re:Flying Toast Man? by BiggerIsBetter · · Score: 2, Insightful

    DOH!!

    Remember kids, don't drink and post.

    --
    Forget thrust, drag, lift and weight. Airplanes fly because of money.
  51. infamous because by wiredog · · Score: 2, Informative

    The USAF kept saying "We have no idea what that is, it's not ours, etc". While Aviation Week kept publishing pictures of the things flying over Nevada and Utah, well away from the airline flight routes.

  52. Pulse Detonation Engined Homebuilt at Oshkosh, WI by Luminary+Crush · · Score: 2, Informative

    I was at the Oshkosh airshow recently and the Air Force had a pulse-detonation powered Long-EZ homebuilt aircraft on display. Doing a quick search on the 'net finds some links to it here: http://www.af.mil/stories/story.asp?storyID=123005 352

    I spoke with one of the engineers for awhile. This engine only produces 200 lbs of thrust, which is barely enough to get the Long-EZ airborne (contrast this to the EZ-Rocket project, in which each of two engines produce 400lbs of thrust IIRC). It is built from low-cost autmotive parts -- imagine a 4cyl engine with ~4' exhaust tubes coming straight off the exhaust ports of the head. The exhaust reaches speeds of up to mach 5 IIRC.

    They do not forsee commercial applications for their design, but rather for use as an efficient missile powerplant.

  53. Re:Question.... by RcktMan77 · · Score: 2, Informative

    Your professor is correct. Engineering utilizes numbers. However when expressing these results to an audience without the technical background in a specific area, these numbers aren't going to get your point across. So, it's rarely good form to explain things in such terms. Furthermore, you're rarely going to see a publication, such as Popular Science, providing such information since it's purpose is to describe new and noteworthy developments in technology so the person without any formal technical training can appreciate such things.

    That being said, as I mentoned earlier if you take the equation for efficiency of the Brayton cycle, which is the constant pressure thermodynamic cycle that models today's turbofan engines:

    Brayton_eff = 1 -T_0/T_1

    where T_0 and T_1 are the absolute temperatures at their respective engine stations (or cycle stations if you're a thermo geek) with the constant volume Humphrey cycle efficiency which the PDE cycle closely follows:

    Humphrey_eff = 1 - gamma*T_0/T_1* [(T2/T1)^(1/gamma) -1/((T_2/T_1)-1)]

    you will see that the difference between these cycle efficiencies is the multiplier:

    gamma*[(T2/T1)^(1/gamma) -1/((T_2/T_1)-1)]

    For typical detonation combustion, the value of this multiplier is always less than one; therefore, resulting in a higher cycle efficiency than the efficiency of the Brayton cycle.

    Furthermore, pulse detonation engines offer the potential to operate at very high densities, allowing the designer to use very compact combustor designs which has been desirable in the aerospace industry to allow for lengthening the nozzle.

    As far as typical numbers with regards to specific impulse, you'll find that the time-averaged values are very comparable to those of an arcjet on the order of 10^4/sec. You might not find too many specifics with regards to performance as more than likely this sort of detail is proprietary still at this point.