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Apple to Accept Returns of Mac OS X on Some G3s
An anonymous reader writes "A class-action lawsuit was filed over Mac OS X not working correctly on some of the older G3's, and Apple has tentatively agreed to refund the purchase price of the OS ($129) to people who purchased it for use on those computers, and wish to return it." The agreement is not final. If you wish to continue using the OS on your computer, despite it not working fully, you can instead receive a $25 coupon. The deal will, apparently, apply to the iMacs through the fruit-colored models; the pre-chiclet iBooks; the PowerBook G3s; the first three Power Mac G3 models; and the all-in-one Power Mac G3.
...you mean the toilet-seat cover iBooks?
bananas like monkeys.
How come you have to class action these companies to be responsible. Isn't there laws that say they need to deliver on their product claims. I am about ready for some tougher legislation I pretty much feel powerless as a consumer and I doubt I am alone. Although this particular mac issue doesn't affect me.
***I GOT NUTHIN***
...all companies would stand behind their products. I know plenty of people who would like a refund for Windows Me *@&!#
A "news that doesn't require discussion" section with comments disabled. Is there really anything worthwhile to say about this article? Apple's doing the right thing, roughly. Sure you can nit-pick details, but what a waste.
Helping with organizational effectiveness is our job.
so . . .
Apple said in Tuesday's court filing that it "continues to vigorously deny all of the material allegations" of the lawsuit but is willing to settle to avoid the costs of continuing to fight the legal action. An Apple representative declined to comment further.
. . . but . . .
"If you are completely dissatisfied (with Mac OS X), you can return it and get your money back," Ferlauto said. "If you want to keep OS X, but are kind of annoyed that you don't have full support, you can get (a $25) coupon."
. . . and of course, the winner is . . .
Apple has also agreed to pay up to $350,000 in legal fees to King & Ferlauto.
everything in moderation
So, the customers get their money back, and the legal weasels get $350,000. That seems like par for the course, nowadays.
....It just works!
do() || do_not();
Windows NT won't work on my PCjr. I'm going to sue.
Nice troll, but its a pretty simple case of Apple not delivering on promises it made in order to get people to give them money.
If you had a G3, were promised OSx would work great, and your video card is STILL not supported (and Apple said now they changed their mind, it never will be) PLUS you can't play DVD's on your OEM DVD drive (same situation) then you might want the $129 you spent to "upgrade" back as well.
That is why they are settling, idiot. They are basically admitting they fucked up.
Tequila: It's not just for breakfast anymore!
A software maker granting a refund for a product (even if it is under threat)? I can hear the fuses popping in certain brains in a nameless northwestern city.
Seriously though, this tells you a lot about the both the Mac community and Apple. The machines are so good that people are able to file a lawsuit due to expecting X performance on a machine and not getting it, and expect to have a case. Wow.
Personally, I doubt Apple deserves this (I mean, come on - older machines tend to not be supported as well, and early releases of software are know to be less solid than later ones.) But it does say a lot about the Apple World.
"I object to doing things that computers can do." -- Olin Shivers, lispers.org
Agreed but maybe if we had less radical action groups like peta and the nra and more normal action groups that actually got support we would be able to have some legislation head our way. We have to stop electing these career politicans and big business people and get some changes made. I am scared for america we are a product of our own poor school system and crappy family structure. We are a product of our own apathy
***I GOT NUTHIN***
They're not "standing behind their product" so much as reacting to a class-action lawsuit. In other words, it's cheaper to cut a deal and say that they'll accept OSX returns for users of these particular machines than go through court (with the possibility of losing).
This way, they'll only lose a little money on the returns of OSX by users that actually bother to bring it it. It's likely that a lot of G3 users won't even know they have the option of a return anyhow.
I'm glad to see that apple is doing this. Good for them.
However,
I'm still skeptical for some of their other things, involving Warranty Return items. Example: Boss has brand new Powerbook. Within 3 weeks the LCD dies. Apple is still trying to collect $700-something dollars for the repair, when IMHO it should be a warranty item. FWIW the guy has been a super-loyal Apple Fanatic since the Apple ][
This eMac i'm typing on was purchased with 1Gb of ram, but arrived with 512 only. Also, the OS was completely b0rked when it arrived, which required a reinstall of OS X. It's got a few dead pixels on the screen but Apple refuses to listen.
I'm not trying to bash apple, andi know there are other, worse companies, but i guess i expected them to be a little better after the sale. They've been worse than a used-car dealer by my experience at the Mac-centric ISP i work for.
do() || do_not();
I'll put the $125 from Apple towards the $700 SCO says I owe them!
Trolling is a art,
It's because Apple said it would work on all G3's as mentioned in a higher thread. Had they not done so, plaintiffs would have had no case. So no precedent set, except that things won't be guaranteed to run on any older platform from now on.
-Looking for a job as a materials chemist or multivariat
I'm in partial agreement with this case. While I currently use Jaguar on a Powerbook DVI, formerly I used earlier versions of OS X (10.0 and 10.1) on a Powerbook Lombard (the model with the bronze keyboard). While DVD players were an option with that model, the one I purchased (or rather, the university I work for purchased for me) was the model with the DVD reader. Thus, I used it quite a bit to watch DVDs in OS 9 and was pleased that I could do so. I took it on a few trips and carried entertainment with me.
... we'll have to see. A partial refund was more my expectation since a lot of other features DID work as advertised, but hey, I can use the cash for a discount on a new iPod (I want the backlit-buttons version in part because I plan to use it in my Volkswagen, and the red illumination of the controls in the car matches. It'll look really spiffy. :) )
When 10.1 came out it was quite a big deal that it finally added DVD viewing support, and there was no mention of the fact that it was not going to work fully as advertised on all systems. In fact, Apple made a big deal of the fact that you could run OS X on a lot of older systems going back to some of the old beige towers (I'm pretty sure about that) and implied in the "usable on older systems" was the fact that all features would work as they were advertised to on all of those systems. I was in full expectation that all of the features would work, and I can't possibly have been alone.
I was quite disappointed to discover that apparently hardware acceleration, which I have long been told from many sources is actually better because it offloads a lot of the processing tasks onto the video system instead of the CPU, was actually the reason why DVD playing did NOT work. I couldn't play DVDs -- if I tried I'd get a message stating that my system wasn't compatible -- even after Apple released a DVD player update! How was I supposed to fix this? "Go buy a new Powerbook". That was unacceptable given the fact that Apple had always given the impression that OS X would be fully supported on G3 systems. That apparently meant "some G3 systems" even though no qualifiers were printed on any preview materials.
I'll be returning my discs for a refund since it didn't work as advertised (which did bother me) and because I don't use OS X on that old Powerbook anymore. It's just relegated to Photoshopping in OS 9. It sounds like what I've seen so far is indicating a full refund, which I won't argue with if true
The point of this case was (rightfully) that if there are going to be exclusions for "it works with existing stuff" the exceptions need to be listed so nobody ends up disappointed like I was. It's just fair. It's a real shame there had to be a lawsuit to make it happen.
i am a soviet space shuttle
...are the minimum specs for a reason. I wouldn't expect much out of Windows Xp with its minimum specs of running a 233mhz Celeron with 128mb ram. Newer OS run faster on faster equipment. Trying to run the latest and greatest OS on older equipment is a trying experience. In general I would recomend sticking with the OS the computer came with, its cheaper, and most likely beter suited for the machine. It may sound like Apple is being all great by refunding all or part of the purchase price, but they're only doing that 'cause they got sued.
The 1st three were the beige models made. From the artical the settlement doesnt include the B&W G3.
Mike
You mean Apple actually has to accept returns of it's product, when it doesn't work? Like, if there was a warranty or something? This is a sad and black day for the software industry, maybe one day we will even have to act responsively...
They way I see it, the consumer is definitely coming out on top with this one.
ANd I don't see any issue with the lawyers getting some money for their "win" (qualified, of course, because Apple vigorously denies all the material allegations... but hey, I like to save face in public, too).
Let see, without those lawyers and their legal fees (who only work on contigency) let me calculate what you and the average consumer would get back. Let's see, add for the user base, divide by 2, carry the 1.... ah yes. ZERO DOLLARS and zero cents.
You can get all of your money back! Or if you still want to use it, you can get some money back!
That is what I like to call having your cake and eating it too.
In the future, I would want to not be isolated from my friends in the Space Station.
I use one of the "pre-chicklet" iBooks. (I'm running OSX 10.3 Jaguar on a 466mHz G3 iBook SE with 384MB RAM) Other than it being a tiny bit slow, OSX works great.
I think this is really a statement about how Apple's customers have come to expect so much from the fruit company... yeah, Apple said they would support G3's. And they do. It's just when you try and scrape by with the minimum recommended requirements, things don't usually work as well as you'd like.
Sure, refunding the purchase price on a product that didn't work as expected is understandable, but it's too bad it had to happen in court. I guess that's just the way of doing things these days. Too bad.
Microsoft would NEVER do this.
Everyday it looks more and more like my next machine will be an Apple. What Microsoft fails to understand is that their customers hate Microsoft's "Screw the customer" attitude more than the bugs in their products.
The society for a thought-free internet welcomes you.
Unfortunately, that's not a viable option. The Broze G3 PowerBook, for example, has DVD-playback hardware. Running in software only (as with VLC) gives extremely poor performance, and bogs down the machine.
Running under OS-9, the DVD playback is beautiful, and can happen in the background as one does real work at the same time
Again, it comes down to promises Apple made, and then didn't come through on.
- Rage II cards: no graphics acceleration at all
- Rage Pro cards: 2D acceleration, no hardware OpenGL acceleration
- Rage 128 cards: 2D + OpenGL acceleration
- ATI Radeon, all Geforce's shipped with Macs: 2D + OpenGL + Quartz Extreme
Apple never promised it would work on your machine. Apple did promise the early G3's would be supported by Mac OS X and people felt that not having 2D and/or 3D acceleration made that claim misleading, as Apple nowhere explicitly stated that up front (while they did state it wrt Quartz Extreme).Donate free food here
It seems better than par to me. The usual outcome to this type of suit is the lawyers getting millions rather than a few hundred K, and the customers getting no cash, only a rebate on a future purchase (ie, an inducement to give more money to the folks who ripped them off). The Zip disk "Click of Death" lawsuit, for example, ended up like that.
Under the circumstances, a refund seems like a reasonable outcome for the customers involved. I'm not bothered by the lawyers' fee, either. It's much smaller than I expected, and they appear to have earned it by really representing their clients, rather than just throwing them a bone & running off with all the money.
Let's go back to 1998, shall we? This is when the original announcements were made about OS X. Come about 1999, OS X made it into public beta, and soon after, it was released. Apple's hype wave crashed down on its customers when the product failed to deliver.
Think about it: You run a Mac shop - graphics, prepress, video, audio, whatever. You're constantly stop-starting in regards to X, its release date, whether it will run on your machine, what software will be available/ready/usable. You buy a Beige G3 in anticipation of OS X, which is promised to perform on it. It doesn't. It's barely usable. It's taken another 2 years for it to become usable, and in that time, the machines have become obsolete. It's taken rewriting and increasing the requirements of so much of the OS (Quartz Extreme/Open GL) that the hardware it was originally designed to support isn't up to the task.
Do we deserve a fair shake? Hell mutha fuckin yeah!
Yes, but they bought OS X on Apple's word that their computer would be fully supported. In this case, it's not a G3/G4 issue, it's the video card. Apple did not go back and add complete video support for the older machines as they said they would. As a result, some things (including the dvd player) did not work properly.
It's not zealots, it's not OS 9 freaks, it's people who bought OS X because it should have worked on their computer, and didn't fully.
I know this is mainly to drive hardware sales, but it seems a little disingenuous to not take care of their customers.
I've been looking at getting a PB, but stories like this where Apple just drops support on a whim, or doesn't 'make it right', make me look for a Latitude or Thinkpad. Couple that with hearing stories about the $500+ repairs on Apple laptops, and I'm getting more leery. I rarely hear about problems with other laptop makers.
OS X is a powerful draw, but the 'closed-source' hardware and the constant ditching of support have me wondering. Make it easy, Apple!
Maybe I'll go find a P2 to put Zeta on..
I do PC support and a very close friend of mine does Mac support and Mac warranty fulfilment. We're constantly trading horror stories and he has told me of a few hardware related problems that Apple still has to resolve:
Powerbook power supplies that not only burn out prematurely but are a fire and electrical hazard.
Some recent Powerbook units that refuse to come out of sleep mode.
IPODs that refuse to allow flash upgrades and units that continue to have problems with charging the batteries even with the newest flash upgrades. The newest units do not have this problem, he says.
Now before anyone shouts out that their Powerbook or IPOD works magnificently, these are hardware related problems that he gets DAILY and that Apple is aware of and does not appear to care about. They replace the parts under warranty and that's all he can do. I have no reason to doubt his assertions, but I have to wonder why Apple would let such glaring problems as faulty power adaptors persist. Also, he pointed out to me that people only call him with problems, never to thank him for a working Mac so his perception is probably a little skewed.
I purchased a refurb Wallstreet G3/266 Powerbook, slapped 512 megs of RAM in it, and put OS X 10.2.6 on it, and it runs like a dream. Sure, it's a bit slow, particularly when OS X tries to do the funky window zoom effects that undoubtedly look stunning on faster Macs, and it doesn't play the more recent Quicktime movies flawlessly...but it's 266 frickin' megahertz, what do they expect?
Editor Emeritus and Senior Writer, TeleRead.org
It's not simply apathy that's at fault here, nor radical action groups. As has been stated numerous times here on /., today's political situation makes it very difficult for average citizens to even know who to vote for. It's hard for anyone to even get on a ballot without corporate sponsorship (today, political parties are just a euphemism for corporate sponsorship). The cost of running an effective election campaign, even at the local level, is enormous. This weeds out potential candidates who are either not motivated enough, not wealthy enough or unwilling to be a corporate proxy. We wind up with election ballots which limit us to choosing which corporate sponsors we hate less.
In order to make educated voting decisions, voters must do extensive research into candidates, from the local town board elections on up. Who do they have corporate ties to? Are they independantly wealthy enough to campaign without party sponsorship? What is their voting record? What legislation have they personally authored or sponsored? What organizations do they belong to? Naturally, noone makes this info readily accessible either.
People are inherently lazy, unfortunately. I can't even say that I put as much work into researching elections as I should. Many people can't even stand contemplating this; they limit themselves to whomever gives them the best sound bytes. Until a large enough number of people are willing to work at choosing alternative candidates, starting from the local elections, corporate sponsorship will dictate American politics.
The irony in this is overwhelming...
The strength of the Macintosh comes from the fact that there is a limited range of hardware that needs to be supported from the factory. There isn't 34 different video cards to support.
Apple doesn't have an excuse. They claimed that OS X would work on all the G3s. They should have written the drivers or refunded the $$$, or never wrote checks that their body couldn't cash.
MS never claimed that Windows XP would work on your 386, 8086, 8088. IIRC, MS said that many would need to upgrade. Of course, MS isn't (fervently) trying to increase hardware sales.
It's a little scary when the only computer your OS runs on is made by the same company. Look at Be Inc. and their BeOS/BeBox to 'Internet Appliance' focus shift. Whoops. Lets not develop our OS except for toasters. (I blame MS too, of course...)
No, Apple isn't dying. In fact, I think Apple is poised to beat some stuffing out of MS.
Apple does need to avoid vaporware claims, and treating their customers like two-dollar whores - we get enough of that elsewhere.
Excuse me, but G3 machines (all of them) were sold as "will be supported by the new Mac OS" when they were on the market. They're still listed as "supported" to this very day. I'm not party to this lawsuit, but I can tell you that the problems with OS X on "supported" beige G3 machines are more than just people not liking OS 9.
When I tried to upgrade from OS 9 to OS X, the system wouldn't boot the install CD. Apple told me to replace the Apple SCSI CD-ROM drive it came with with an IDE CD-ROM drive from a short list. I shelled out money and replaced the SCSI CD-ROM with the IDE one.
I was then able to get it to boot, but it would fail in the middle of install. Once it did complete install, but as soon as I booted, it punted and when I tried to reboot again, the install was corrupted and would hang without reaching the desktop. Apple told me to replace the Apple SCSI hard drive with any EIDE hard drive. So I shelled out money and bought an EIDE hard drive.
Then I was able to install and use OS X, only to find that video acceleration on beige G3 system is not supported. If you're too new to computing to have ever used unaccelerated video, you have no idea how painfully slow it is, especially on a system as graphics-heavy as OS X. Any window operation, from resizing a window to scrolling text to minimizing a window to the dock can be timed in seconds rather than the "instant" redraws users of modern computers are accustomed to. To add final insult, my external SCSI Zip doesn't work under OS X.
Apple's responses to both of these problems is a raspberry. There are no plans to add accelerated video drivers for the ATI Rage chipsets in these machines. The internal SCSI on Beige G3s "may work reliably" which basically means that it also "may not work reliably" and that was certainly my experience. They suggest I add a supported PCI SCSI controller if I want to use SCSI peripherals.
Not gonna happen, I've already shelled out enough to try and keep a foot in the Mac world, I gave up and the machine is now in storage.
STOP . AMERICA . NOW
Considering that Mac OS X 10.2 is quite content to fry the analog card inside of an iMac G3 (Slotloading), if someone doesn't read the fine manual and upgrade the firmware first, I think $129 isn't enough in many cases. A system that is suppose to be ultra friendly shouldn't fry one's built-in monitor without big warnings on-screen first.
Of course, if you do read the manual, like I did, I don't see any problems with the system on a G3. Mac OS X 10.2.6 runs quite decently on my iMac.
-------------
"You would not get a high grade for such a design" -- Andy Tanenbaum on Linus' Linux design.
That argument is stale (ie. "that's not a fair comparison - Apple supports limited amounts of hardware so it works whereas Microsoft has to support everything and that's why it crashes") and unsupported by facts. Do you have an Xbox? Mine's crashed before. And Microsoft has a single hardware platform there. PocketPCs crash? Yep. Again, essentially all the same platform. What about Microsoft based cell phones? Yep. They still crash. So its not just that Apple has limited hardware to support. They have limited hardware that they successfully support in their software. Successful is the keyword that Microsoft still can't seem to replicate even when they have the same advantages on different platforms. While I don't own one, I'm sure the WindowsXP Media PC platform also crashes...
"Right now, somewhere in this world, Scott Baio is plowing a woman he doesn't love," - Peter Griffin, *Family Guy*
Just give these people new machines. First, you'll regain their goodwill. You have new machines coming out and they'll probably buy them later. Second, you'll increase the adoption rate of OS X, even if it would be with a soon-to-be older edition (hint: they'd probably buy the OS X Panther). Third, you get rid of probably excess inventory. Clearing out functioning G3 and G4 hardware is going to happen eventually, so why not take a write-down now when it will actually save you money in the long-run (by not losing longterm customers)? Fourth, you continue to prove you are better than Microsoft. Fifth -- and this is trolling -- if Best Buy can give customers brand new computers after theirs fail spectacularly providing they bought the $300 extended warranty (PSP) and continue to make money, so can you. I've seen plenty of times where Best Buy managers replaced ancient customer computers with mid to high-end units simply because the customer originally bought those blasted service plans. So if any of these customers bought your Apple Care Plans, just give them new machines with 10.2.6 installed. And just as a disclaimer, I never have owned a Mac, although I'm planning on buying one shortly (bring out a mid-range Firewire-based flatbed scanner too, by the way)...
"Right now, somewhere in this world, Scott Baio is plowing a woman he doesn't love," - Peter Griffin, *Family Guy*
So, what if I want to buy a Mac because of its nice hardware but don't want the proprietary OS that comes with it. Can I get Apple to rebate the price?
- iBook: P1 (aka ToiletSeat, 1999), unsure about P1.5 (ToiletSeat2, 2000).
- iMac: Bondi (aka RevA & RevB, 1998), LifeSavers (aka RevC & RevD, aka 5 Flavors, 1999).
- PowerBook G3: Hooper (aka original, 1997), MainStreet/WallStreet (aka G3 Series, 1998), Lombard (aka Bronze, 1999).
- PowerMac G3: Beige (aka Gossamer, 1997), All-in-One (aka Artemis, 1998),
Not covered:I've seen basically two kinds of posts in resoponse the the article. There's been Mac zealots who are lauding Apple for "taking responsibility," and there have been people slamming them for false advertising. There have also been several "OMG APPLE IS TEH SUX" trolls and jokes of various degrees of wittiness, but that's to be expected.
First things first. Apple is not "taking responsibility" for all those users out there with poor OS X support. They are refunding them, and doing so to settle a lawsuit. Taking responsibility would be adding full support to OS X. Their settlement sounds pretty fair as far as class action suits go, but it's not done out of benevolence. As has been pointed out before, Apple is a company, and its motivation is primarily money.
Second, Apple's advertising in this matter was not exceptionally shady. They said they'd support G3s, and it turns out that they do not fully support all of them. The OS runs on these G3s (which are below the recommended minimum specs), but poorly, and doesn't fully support their hardware.
Fine. All companies advertise in language like this. Plenty of laptops are in various Linux distros' supported lists, but don't have power management support. If you think promising to support something and then doing a half-assed job is bad, look at advertisers that get away with what would be called a lie anywhere outside a court.
This case is neither a big win nor a big loss for Apple. It does not show that their character is particularly good or evil. Give it a rest.
I hereby place the above post in the public domain.
However, if you bought Connectix's Mode32, that would patch MacOS to support 128 meg, and added virtual memory support.
There was a consumer lawsuit, and eventually Apple agreed to buy a copy of Mode32 for any MacII owner who wanted 128 megs or virtual memory, and reimburse those who already had it.
It's funny...one of the supposed points in favor of Macs over PCs is that since Apple controls the hardware and the software, the system will work better. Yet that is twice now Apple has had to be sued to actually make it work.
I can tell you're not because you use words like "I'm pleased with my Mac," not "If you don't like macs you can burn in hell!" ;) For what it's worth, I really like Mac OSX a lot, and linux too - but I can do without the religion, know what I mean?
OTOH their main competitor's image (MS) is so bad, Apple still looks pretty good in comparison.
Even a skunk smells good in a sewer. ;)
-Looking for a job as a materials chemist or multivariat
Read this: http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=106 470
Apple never said it would work on all G3s. Check the fine print and you'll see that firmware updates and SCSI card updates are required for some computers, but the PowerBook G3 (original with rainbow apple on the top) isn't supported at all.
Again, read the fine print for Quartz Extreme and you'd find that only GeForce and Radeon 7500+ cards are supported not the Rages.
Yes it would've been nice for the DVD Player to work on non-agp machines and that is probably why Apple made this submission rather than continuing this in court.