Slashdot Mirror
Solving a Wiring Mess?
FueledByRamen asks: "While trying to run a new power line for a large Sun mass-storage cabinet (located nowhere near a 220 outlet of course), I had the misfortune of needing to pop the lid on my main power distribution panel (previously opened in the late 80s). The whole thing is a rats nest and probably a fire hazard - old-style wiring with broken-down cloth/plastic insulation strewn everywhere, and the utility's incoming power cables have some sort of junction in them that's the size of a 1-liter bottle (on each wire) and is covered in layers of electrical tape. Even (gently) putting the panel back on jiggled something important, and there was a nasty cracking noise and half the breakers blew (all breakers in one of the 2 columns). I've worked with mains voltage in the past (wiring new rooms, installing lighting), but nothing on this scale, both in terms of complexity and potential for death. How do you industrious Slashdot readers go about fixing a mess like this (on a tight budget, no less) without getting a mains-induced glimpse at the great beyond?"
Good god man, leave that mess alone and hire a professional that knows what they are doing. Don't ever put your life in the hands of Slashdot; are you utterly insane?
Maybe it's just me, but some things are worth paying for. I prefer juice in my stomach, not coursing through my entire body...
Stop by my site where I write about ERP systems & more
Hire an electrician.
sPh
1. Let the thing catch fire
2. ??? (Collect insurance)
3. Profit!!
That's the kind of job they get to do.
Just go down to your friendly appliance store and get a can of "Cable-B-Gone" (tm)
Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
Are you sure YOU weren't the cause of the blackout of 2003?
You've got to be kidding right?
My god, I expected this to be signed "a recently unemployed power grid manager in Ohio"...
I might not speak for everybody but I'd imagine that the majority of people went "Hire an electrician" when they read that story. I really don't think you want to be mucking around in there with "some sort of junction in them that's the size of a 1-liter bottle" as you don't appear to know what that is (neither do I).
I know you want to save money but you're likely to fry the electric equipment in your establishment and might take yourself with it. Hiring a professional would likely be cheaper in the long run.
Heh, reminds me of a story. I used to work at Home Depot, and one of the regular electrical customers said that, in whack-job wirings like you have, he would be able to tell the difference between 110v and 220v by grabbing it the wire. If it hurt more, it was 220. If it hurt less, it was 110. He quit coming in one year, and I always wondered what happened to him...
You Insensitive Clod.
Port 80, we dont need no stinckin port 80.
You have two options:
1) Hire a professional electician at a very high rate of pay to rewire the box and make it safe.
2) Hire a burn specialist at an extremely high rate of pay to patch your smoking body together after attempting to fix it yourself.
5) Mike Tyson sounds like a girl.
4) Honey, that's just the PMS talking.
3) [Redneck accent]Hey y'all, watch this...
2) Betcha can't...
1) We'll save a lot of money by not hiring an electrician...
'Nuff said.
-Looking for a job as a materials chemist or multivariat
You have two options:
1. Read National Electrician's Code and the
Emerald book (IEEE guide). Then figure out
who installed the wiring and get a full layout
from them. Buy electrician's equipment as
necessary. Fix the problem.
2. Hire an electrician. You'll still need full
layout of your wiring.
There's also insurance reasons as well. Having someone other than a qualified electrician do the work can void your fire insurance.
send an email to your PHB that says things like "fire hazard" "risk to operations" "danger to employees and $$$$ equiment" "violation of code" and/or "insurance risk". That should get you the authorization you need to do whatever needs to be done - which, as others have pointed out, is HIRE A PROFESSIONAL.
Is the juice worth the sqeeze?
... then you shouldn't be doing it.
Sorry, but this is the kind of thing that only years of experience can help with. If you didn't look at it and already know how to approach the problem, you probably shouldn't be messing around in there, unless you have all the time in the world to experiment and learn your way through the mess.
First I was surprised that IANAL advice hasn't landed some "Ask Slashdotter" in prison. Now we're aiming for our first fatality?
Robots are everywhere, and they eat old people's medicine for fuel.
Suck it up and hire an electrician. Seriously. Yes, those of us who have done lots of electrical work and know not to connect power to ground may feel that it's horribly wrong to pay someone for this, but you really should do it. Even if you know what you're doing, things can always go wrong, and if you're not a licensed electrician you could be opening yourself up to lawsuits by the power company, building code violations, you could lose insurance, etc.
Now, if you want to do your own work inside your house, I would recommend that you get the electrician to install a master lockout switch (different from a master breaker in the panel) between you and the mains supply. Then, play with anything behind that, and you probably won't get in trouble with the power company. You can go re-wire your whole panel yourself, and save some money (getting them to install the lockout switch will be quite cheap comparitively)
There is no sig, there is only Zuul.
So, lick the terminals to find out which ones are hot (works with 9V batteries). Then, standing in a bucket of water, grab a big handful of cables and PULL.
Ignore the fizzing and the smell of burning hair. Douse any lingering flames with gasoline.
They say the first thing to go is your penis. Well, it's either that or your brain. I forget which...
It sounds like one of the main buses in the box got shorted out. You really need to get the thing rewired by a licensed electrician.
If the panel is at work, it's probably illegal for you to work on it. In the immortalized words of Beowulf Schaeffer, "Its Worth Yore Life And More To Go In There!" Seriously, as an uber-l337 633K, you probably have the ability to find the place where the short occurred -- but do you really want to (A) monkey around in a box with live current (it sounds like that is your main box, not a subpanel); (B) stick your neck out by breaking the law for your employer; and (C) possibly assume liability for burning down the building? No? I didn't think so.
If you're at home, you're probably allowed to work on it -- but most places require you to get an electrical inspector to look at it once you're done. Unfortunately, doing this requires getting the local electrical code, so that you know what you're doing -- and that's a whole separate rant. The National Electrical Code is adopted into most municipalities' building codes -- but it's copyrighted by the National Fire Prevention Association. Fortunately, the Supreme Court recently decided that it's unconstitutional to attempt to copyright the law of the land. Unfortuantely, you can't get the electrical code online yet -- you probably still have to buy it.
If you are not a certified electrician that has been trained to deal with that voltage range do not attempt to do so.
If you are going ahead anyway. Take another person with you at all times. Your buddy should be able to shut down the entire mains current within slit seconds. Your buddy should have a wood/rubber/plastic or otherwise insulating device that can be used to knock you away from the power source if necessary.
Never use both hands, current will flow through your heart and spine. Do not wear anything metallic such as chains, watches, rings etc.
Remember that even if you wear double or triple insulation that a high enough electrical potential can break through anyway. I work with 600+ Volt pulse LASER capacitors and I've seen arcs go through plastic.
To reiterate. If your not qualified do not attempt to do the job. Anything that you do based on any of the above is your responsibility only.
Good Luck.
If you outlaw the law, only criminals will have laws
Not only is it dangerous and lethal, not to mention analog... its ILLEGAL in most places for you to do the work unless you're a licensed electrician (some exceptions for certain 120vac work). Heck... a lot of places require you to have a Low Voltage certification to run cat5......
For home, who cares,,, for business: follow the rules.
Hire a professional. A real professional. It won't necessarily "be cheap" but it will be safe. When the powers that be balk, ask them which would be "cheaper", getting this fixed and staying operational, or having the whole thing go *POOF* and take the location out of service and still have to get it fixed.
If you are the unlucky person that has to fix it, then find the main that feeds that panel and TURN IT OFF.
Don't even think about trying to fix this problem while it is hot. Not unless you've got a deathwish and, if you have any family you care about, a great big life insurance policy that will still pay out after acts of stupidity.
I've worked around a few power systems, and the one thing above all else, give that electrical panel LOTS OF RESPECT. Always assume a circuit is hot, even if "you KNOW you turned it off earlier". Always leave a flag on the circuit that you turned off so that others know it is off on purpose, especially if you have to turn off a main to kill power to that panel. Always remember SAFETY FIRST, even when your working on a "dead" panel. If you have insulated tools, good -- use them. If you have heavy duty insulated gloves -- use them. Never work alone -- always have somebody around that is aware of what your doing and that can check on you from time to time, or better yet, keep you in sight. They don't have to help you work on the circuits, but if something goes horribly wrong and you get zapped, that person can call 911 and get you help.
. 62,400 repetitions make one truth -- Brave New World, Aldous Huxley
There is a reason that master electricians get paid the big bucks (and it's not all about just _surviving_, either).
;-) The situation you describe frankly sounds quite dangerous. Is burning the building down worth saving the cost of hiring a pro?
IANAE, but anyone can play anything on the web, right?
If you're *totally* determined to do it yourself, do the obvious. Turn off the upstream power (omit long-winded story of how to power a data center when the main is down - been there ). Make sure you understand what all the parts are, how to tell if they need replacing, and have replacements on hand before you start.
I would guess that there are innumerable sources of education and product sales in this area, so it shouldn't be *that* hard to figure out what everything is, why it is there and how to test it.
On the other hand, there *is* a learning curve involved, and I shouldn't need to point out the dangers of working on a *hot* box based soley on theoretical knowledge! How long do you have to learn how to fix it before you get more than just sparks?
Disclaimer: I've never done any hands-on on anything bigger than your average house feed. I do feel like I learned a lot from being a curious guy in general and having access to a Master Electrician for a couple years, including building out a new data center. And in your shoes, I would not undertake the task without hazard pay that would be higher than the cost of the electrician.
Another possibility is to call the power company, get them to take a look (say you smelled smoke, or saw sparks or something). I doubt they'll fix it, but they'll definitely escalate the problem for you.
If you're not living on the edge, you're just taking up space!
What, you're scared of 220 Volts ? When we were growing up, we walked 200 miles through six feet of snow, wearing no shoes, and we repaired 2000 volt circuits with our bare hands. :-)
How do I perform brain surgery on myself?
What is the best way to travel about in a war zone?
What is the best way to tell my spouse that she needs to lose A LOT of weight?
How can I get close to the President while carrying a handgun?
How can I steal power from a high tension line?
It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains. The stains become a warning
Don't resign. A worker can notify his supervisor that due to what the worker believes that doing the task placed before them will put them in imminent danger, he can refuse to do that task. The worker then needs to fill out a form or two and contact the Occupational Safety & Health Administration. The worker cannot be disciplined for refusing to work in a dangerous situation.
I've felt both a time or two (accidentally). 110 is really more of a tickle and certainly won't kill you.
You've got to be respectful of it but with 110 I didn't even realize I was being shocked until well after the fact.
Dude, 110 volts is most certainly enough to kill. True, most of us have been "tingled" by 110/115 a few times, and didn't die... all that proves is that we were lucky on those occassions.
For an interesting discussion of why low voltages *can* be deadly, see this page.
The bottom line is, lower voltages tend to be "safer" due to the resistance of your body, and the fact that low voltage power sources also usually have a fairly low current capacity. But try wetting your hands and grabbing the leads from an arc welder set on 200+ amps sometime, if you don't think low voltage can f#@k you up.
// TODO: Insert Cool Sig
"First thing to do is SHUT OFF THE POWER AND INSURE IT WILL NOT BE TURNED BACK ON UNTIL YOU ARE DONE!!!"
This is extremely good advice.* Professional electricians will put a little warning sign over any breakers, switches, etc. that are shut off that says essentially, "if you turn on power here, you'll kill someone." Make sure you have one.
That said, I too think this is a very good way to add yourself to the next Darwin Awards.
*Ignoring the goofup with "insure" used rather than "ensure", but that's not a *big* deal.
How 'bout putting up a picture of that mess for us to enjoy?
As a devoted employee trying to save your company money, the answer is obvious.
Step 1: Buy life insurance, lots of it. Name your employer sole beneficiary.
Step 2: Attempt to "fix" this yourself.
Step 3: PROFIT! The company can use the benefits (assuming the insurer doesn't use your actions as prima facie evidence of suicidal intent) to hire a professional to do the job right. You'll be dead, but that's a small price to pay, eh?
Seriously, what has our country come to where this is a legitimate question? Techies should be comfortable replacing wall switches and outlets, installing undercounter lighting, and other light work. But anything involving the main should go to the professionals without a second thought. If it's as bad as you said, it should also go to the lawyers - wasn't this building ever inspected? Who did this shoody work before, or allowed it to remain in such poor condition?
Think about it this way - imagine this was a manufacturing shop and people have routine cuts and burns and the like. No big deal, anyone with modest first aid skills can deal with it. But if somebody came in with a compound fracture and 4" of bone showing, would you patch them with the ace bandage and send them on their way? Or would you decide that this is one of those situations where you need to call in the professionals?
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
I rewired my whole house from the power pole down (was 40s era ungrounded knob and tube with 30 amp service) so it can be done but some things will make it easier.
First, find an electrician friend or at least an electrician who is DIY friendly and get a professional opinion. If the insulation in the panel is bad it may be bad in the walls as well. You may not want to know.
While you can do the research and learning yourself, a pro will quickly spot certain gotchas like aluminum wiring without the proper anti-corrosion connectors or grease.
They will also likely spot other things you would probably miss such as certain Federal Pacific Electric panels and breakers (http://www.inspect-ny.com/fpe/sec1982.htm).
In my case I knew plenty about electricity in general but hiring a friend for a few hours to review the project and teach me the tricks really helped speed the job. He was also able to review the codes. Again, basic electricity wasn't the problem but my friend was intimate with all the issues like where GFCIs are required, required height of outlets, how many are required per wall, allowed location and hole sizes in floor joists, locations where conduit/BX is and is not required.
A lot of the codes sound arbitrary and to a certain extent they are but before dismissing them as silly remember that they represent the accumulated wisdom from the fires, electrocutions, etc. in the past. Building codes are all written in blood.
A pro can show you good tricks. For example, throw away the stupid paper template that comes with the retrofit junction boxes and simply hold a torpedo level against the box, use a tape to measure the proper height and pencil around the box then cut.
Also, before locating a box take a piece of straight coat-hanger wire, chuck it into a drill, and drill it through the baseboard or ceiling wherever you want to locate the box. Then crawl under the house or into the attic and the wire will give you the exact location so you can check for obstructions and you can drill the holes in the right place. Much better than trying to measure plus coathangers are free and the tiny hole is easily filled with a dab of spackle.
If you do get into major rewiring I recommend a few things:
1. Use 20 amp wiring - the material cost is very slightly higher but labor isn't. You have extra capacity and lower resistance losses.
2. More breakers - OK, I went a bit overboard with well over 20 breakers in a 1200 square foot house but running every kitchen outlet to its own breaker cost me very little in time or money and I have no problem running the microwave, coffee maker, waffle maker, toaster along with the fridge and dishwasher.
3. Outlets everywhere. I added outlets in every closet - they are great for powering chargers, adding a burglar alarm, etc. Add them where you might add appliances - I'm finally getting a garage door opener but the install will be easy since the outlet is already in place. While I was up in the attic I added an outlet under the eaves - handy every Christmas. I increased the number ouf outlets 3-4 fold and have used every one.
4. Run 240 to the garage - you will eventually want to run a small welder and even if not you might want to use it for an illegal backfeed from your generator in a blackout (just be sure to kill the main breaker first).
Upgrading to a solid over-engineered electrical system wasn't like getting a new computer or other toy - it was more like finally getting a pebble out of my shoe (no more blown fuses, no more sticking a three prong adapter on the extension cord then tossing it out the bathroom window to be able to mow the back lawn...) It's work but the result is nice.
~~~~~~~
"You are not remembered for doing what is expected of you." - Atul Chitnis
"Depression is merely anger without enthusiasm." - Anonymous
I am a lifelong blue collar guy, gardening, landscaping and construction. I have worked a fair amount part time with electricians. Do it yourself electrical work is ok for outlets, ceiling fans, etc, if you are smart with your hands.
But you need to stay FAR away from the Main Panel unless you are knowledgeable. That thing is dangerous, there ARE many non obvious mistakes you can make if you are not an experienced electrician. You can hurt yourself, burn down the building, damage stuff attached to the electrical system, and if you do something REAL IGNORANT, it is possible (unlikely) you can hurt someone working for the power company outside the house.
This is coming from a Gung Ho!!! Do It Yourselfer/ Shade Tree Mechanic
HenryJamesFeltus.com
Don't have one of those? THAT'S BECAUSE YOU'RE NOT FARKIN' QUALIFIED TO DO THE WORK!
If you have not had the correct training, you CAN NOT safely lock out equipment. Sure. You locked it out. You stuck your wiggy in the wall socket to make sure you got a buzz. You tested each terminal and they were all dead. You started stripping wires. You reached way into the cabinet to unscrew some terminals in the back. It got dark and the building's outside lighting circuit turned on. Guess what? Someone ran the lighting circuit through the box.
oopsie.
You don't know what you're doing. Neither does the person who "told you how" to do this safely. Hire a professional.
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, it doesn't go away." - Philip K. Dick
What, you're scared of 220 Volts ? When we were growing up, we walked 200 miles through six feet of snow, wearing no shoes, and we repaired 2000 volt circuits with our bare hands. :-)
You call that tough. When I was a kid, we didn't even have hands.
I used to write software at a high-energy physics lab. The technicians would put padlocks that only they had keys for on switches when they powered something down. Removing someone else's lock was grounds for immediate dismissal. If someone accidentally left a lock on something, they had to personally remove it or (you guessed it) face dismissal. They took these rules very seriously.
Whats brown and hangs on to a wire, ...unqualified electricians.
OH THE SHAME I fell off the wagon and use sigs again!
At Brookhaven National Lab, the high-voltage systems are considered relatively safe. It's the 5V electronics-power distribution systems that carry upwards of 600A and have fuses bigger around than your fist. Shorting one of those with a wrench would make the wrench explode.
110V can tickle. 5V can kill.
it's not the volts it's the amps that getcha
God, I knew someone was going to say that. Ohm's law... I=V/R. If the voltage goes up, so does the current. They are not mutually exclusive.
Yoda of Borg am I! Assimilated shall you be! Futile resistance is, hmm?
Ha!
:
A friend of mine and I were leaning over a running engine on opposite sides of the car.
He touched an ignition cable and the current went
- Up his arm
- Down his legs to earth
- Up *my* legs to crotch
- from my crotch to frame of car that I was leaning against to look in engine bay.
Ow. Sure didn't see that one coming!
You are in a twisty maze of processor lines, all alike.
There is a lot of hype here.
Basically, don't fsck with the stuff unless you know what you're doing.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
If you're talking about not having a 220-volt outlet nearby, you're probably American. But you're calling it "mains power", which is usually a Commonwealth thing. Are you by chance Canadian?
In most of the US, at least if you're in a city or a medium-heavily-populated county, there's probably a building code electrical code that says who's allowed to work on what kind of electricity. Usually in a home, you're allowed to work on sockets and switches inside existing electrical boxes, and almost everywhere you're not allowed to touch the main power feed yourself, and in some jurisdictions you can install new electrical boxes and plug-in circuit breakers yourself and in some you can't. (In New Jersey, you can negotiate with the building inspectors about not noticing things, but Darwin usually wants bigger bribes than they do...) In commercial buildings, you're more likely to need a license.
If you're required to use a licensed electrician for something, and you do it yourself, various Bad Things can happen, and if you do it your self and something goes wrong, more Bad Things _will_ happen. You do not want this... And you said that it looked ugly in there - this significantly increases the chances that if you do work on it yourself, something will go wrong, or perhaps Terribly Wrong, either because it really is an ugly mess or because it's beyond your skill level or both. And if you're renting your building instead of owning it yourself, your lease probably mentions some of the requirements. If you have fire insurance or liability insurance, those contracts probably also require licensed electricians for cases like this.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
Interesting, this is essentially how public key encryption works.
The problem they're trying to solve is that a message gets sent through a public channel (such as the postal service) without either party giving up their private key and without the data ever being unencrypted until it's safely in the hands of the recipient. The best explanation of it I've heard goes like this.
"Alice writes a message and locks it in a chest with her padlock. This chest has holes (hasps) for two separate padlocks. [Note: no reason it can't have n hasps, as in the wiring example.] She sends the locked box to Bob through the mail.
Bob places his own padlock through the remaining hasp, and mails it back to Alice.
Alice removes her own padlock and mails the box, with just Bob's padlock on it, back to Bob.
Bob removes his own padlock and reads the message."
Of course, this is all being done over TCP instead of the post, and with math instead of padlocks, but you get the idea.
None of this has anything to do with a wiring mess, but the similarities are striking.
It's rare that you're presented with a knob whose only two positions are Make History and Flee Your Glorious Destiny.
Seriously though, there is life outside whatever burnt out dot com shell you are currently living in, with only the roaches keeping you company. You need to get out and get your bare feet on the grass for a while. Smoke something. Lie in the sun with your eyes closed. Try and forget there was ever a place and time when you thought it would be smart to do your own high voltage wiring.
[x] auto-moderate all posts by this user as insightful
I lived in a rented house in college that had what turned out to be dangerous wiring.
LESSON 1: Polarity
Here's a cool tip for you. When wiring up electrical outlets, if you reverse the hot and the neutral lines, you actually create a voltage potential between the outlets. I discovered this because I touched the stove and the refridgerator at the same time accidentally. I got a huge jolt, shook a bit, and called the land lord.
LESSON 2: Breakers and Wiring Guages
If you should ever run wiring in your house, you need to make sure that the breaker that you use matches the capabilities of the wiring. If you should decide to run wiring into an attic using 15 amp capable wiring, it is a bad idea to put a 30 amp breaker on it. It's an even worse idea to hook up approximately 27 amps worth of electrical heaters to this circuit because it will cause the wiring in the wall to catch fire. Of course if one assumes that the person wiring the house isn't insane, you may not know to avoid plugging in said heaters.
LESSON 3: DOCTORS ARE NOT ELECTRICIANS
Eletricity isn't brain surgery, and just as you don't want an electrician siticking sharp metal objects into your brain, you don't want a doctor futzing with wiring. Actually I suppose if you are a doctor who does know how to work with electricity it would be okay, but the one who had previously owned our house had no clue on the subject. Worse, he had no clue and he mistakenly thought that he knew everything.
So, if you look in the electrical box and it instills fear in you, call a professional. Don't even think of doing it yourself.
This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
I worked at a medium sized amusement park while in college. The park was over 35 years old and much of the wiring and junction boxes were equally as old.
Late one summer night, with the park full of people, all the lights on 'main street' went off.
I was nearby the park's main junction box and helped one of the engineers, an unassuming guy who had worked at the park for years, by holding a flashlight while he started work on the box.
The box was ancient. Cloth wrapped wires. Giant fuses. Old rusty exposed mechanical switches. The works. For whatever reason, one of the main switches had popped open. The engineer first tries popping it back in place. The lights flicker and it just pops back out.
The guy looks at me and says "Point the light at the ground. Help me find some old wire". He searches around with his hands for a minute and finds a snipping of some very heavy guage plastic insulated wire.
To my shock, the guy closes the switch shut with one hand while using the other to hold the insulated part of the wire and *arc-welds the switch shut* with the wire's exposed conductor! Sparks flew, the lights snapped back on, and I damn near shit my pants. This good old boy engineer didn't even blink. "That should hold it until we can get someone out tomorrow".
The only thing I can figure is that he was somehow electrically insulated, perhaps from his huge set of balls for even considering something like this.
I worked down at Kennedy Space Center, in the old Flight Crew Training building. It had a crawlspace that was used to run wires, which was accessible by pulling up one of the big, heavy floor tiles (there was a special tile-pulling tool). The crawlspace was maybe three feet deep -- with the bottom foot or so consisting of old cables, dating back to the Apollo days. Pulling up a floor tile always reminded me of the scene in Raiders of the Lost Ark -- all that was missing was a dropped torch and Indy saying "Snakes... Why did it have to be snakes?" Anyway, every time they tried to clean out these wires, they ended up knocking out something important, so eventually they just let them accumulate.
One time we had to run a network cable from one end of the building to the other -- nearly 100 meters -- and the only way we could figure out to do it was to send someone down there to crawl it through. I'm glad I didn't draw the short straw that day...
I object to that article, and to the next reply.
The key too handling high voltages safely, is to become a good resistor
So resistence...is not futile?