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Telecommuting from Japan to California - Is it possible?
clambake asks: "Well, the long and short of it is I'll be moving to Japan next month as my wife is returning to finish her Master's degree in Tokyo. I have an excellent job now in Silicon Valley, and I'd love to keep working here from abroad, but it looks like California lawmakers have it out for me. Despite my company's willingness to keep me on, the labor laws make it very difficult, if not impossible, to do so when I don't physically work in the country. I can't work as a contractor for my own company either, as there are laws in place to 'protect' me from my employer trying to demote me to contractor to save on paying benefits. Is there anyone out there who's been through a similar situation and who would be willing to post their success or failure stories?"
My company is working to send a bunch of our jobs overseas. Keep waiting and your company may "Accomodate" you as well.
Paul Lenhart writes words!
Could you possibly get around those laws by "quitting", and being rehired as a contractor?
Just a thought.
Dark Nexus
"Sanity is calming, but madness is more interesting."
the menda
TALK TO A LAWYER.
Talk to a lawyer? Talk to a lawyer!
Perhaps, if you haven't considered consulting with a lawyer, you may wish to talk to a lawyer. Alternatively, if you have some kind of problem with lawyers, you should talk to a lawyer.
Talk to a lawyer. Talk to a lawyer. Talk to a lawyer.
Someone needs to make a song about this.
There are no trails. There are no trees out here.
Could you use a friend's or family member's address for a bank account and legal residence in California, and your employer could auto-deposit your checks into the account?
Just treat this like college students do when they go to school in a different state and keep their parents' house as residence.
Alex.
You are going to be gone for how long? If its less than 3 years then move your official residence to a friends house or a P.O. Box. So long as you pay your taxes in the US and deal with whatever taxes you will have to pay in .jp nobody will care. Now you will get double taxed because of this and you should set up direct deposit if you haven't but thats pretty much it. Note: This was legal when we did it back in 1988-1990 Laws may have changed, but I doubt it.
Bad Panda! No Bamboo for you! In matters of importance ACs will not be responded to. Want to say something critical,OK
Well, it sounds logical to me and you, but supposedly it actually matter where you physically do the work, not where you live. I could easily keep an address here and do direct deposit, but the lawyers seem to think this wouldn't stop my company from getting sued by the labor office if they found out.
What exactly is the obstacle to you being a full time employee working in Japan? You say it's "very difficult, if not impossible, to do so," but is it just a matter of a lot of paperwork and figuring it out? Can you negotiate with HR? If you agree to do all the filing you can and possibly even take a paycut in exchange for them jumping through the legal hoops they have to to "open an office" in Japan? Alex.
Well I think to do it legally from California, they would have to set up a "business presence" in Japan, which would mean paying a nice hefty sum to the Japanese governemnt (way more than my own salary is worth). I would certianly be willing to take a pay cut for them, they really are a great company, but I think it is more than an issue of just jumping through hoops.
I worked for 8 months from Germany, but my legal address was a Mailboxes Etc. box in Berkeley, CA. This is a better option than a US PO Box because your address will look "real" -- mine was "1536 Solano Ave. #248" -- 1536 Solano Ave. being the location of the Mailboxes Etc. and 248 being the box number. I set the box up near a friend of mine who agreed to collect my checks, deposit them by mail, and forward the interesting stuff to me, but Mailboxes Etc. will be happy to forward everything to your overseas address once a week or whatever for a fee.
In short, I had a legal address in CA and no one asked any questions. Since I am a freelancer and work from home anyway, the administrative end of the comanies I worked with didn't know the difference -- to them, it just looked like I had moved somewhere else in CA -- and the IRS and California Franchise Tax Board didn't care either.
From other posts you've made responding to similar suggestions, it sounds like your comany lawyers are a little uncomfortable with the idea, and they will obviously have the final say. But really, I think if you find a friend with a CA address who is willing to say that you live with him or her, and who will do little things like put your name on their mailbox, I don't think anyone can touch you. Pay a nominal fee to your friend for rent. Make sure you come back to CA several times a year, and be sure to stay at "your" home when you do. Register to vote at your new address, and do so, by absentee ballot if necessary. Get everything in Japan in your wife's name. It seems to me that if you do all this it would take a determined effort to prove you're doing something illegal.
jf
You can't do it unless your company has a branch office in Japan. Period. End of story.
This isn't a matter of the California government trying to screw you, it's a whole combination of factors from the INS to the IRS to your state government on down the line that has set the system up this way.
The only way you could do this, without expanding your company's business presence overseas is to quit and start your own company in Japan. Then you could work as a contractor for your former employers. Of course, that opens up a whole bunch of nasty international trade problems with the Japanese and U.S. governments. Bottom line is that if you don't know what to do now, starting a company to work as a contractor for your old company is going to very difficult and time consuming and not worth the effort.
The real question here is why does your wife want to study in Japan for her Masters? Is she not proficient enough in English to take a Master's program in the U.S.? The Japanese educational system is notorious for its lack of quality and the post-secondary educational system is a joke. It would be better, IMO, if she stayed in SV and studied at one of the local universities (Stanford?).
If you do decide to move to Japan, realize that it is a nasty country with nasty people living in cramped conditions. Having lived here for 4 years I can vouch for that much. There are fine people here, of course, but the vast majority of people are assholes. Unless you've lived in LA or NY, it may come as a culture shock.
If you can help it, don't move to Japan. It won't be a learning experience. It won't be fun. It will be a pain in the ass every single day. And you will regret your decision soon after your arrival.
Not trying to talk you out of moving, of course. I'm just trying to give you my opinion on the matter.
I mean... if you have a great job that pays well, you should probably not rock the boat... who pays the bills? Stay home, make some dough and pay for a trip every 20 days or whatever you guys need.
INS should be BCIS. They went and changed that on us a year or so back...
Don't listen to this AC. I've been to Tokyo and it's a great place to be especially if you're fairly young and like going out a lot. Yes of course there are one or two assholes - but that's true everywhere you go. I found most people were friendly and helpful to gaijin like myself. Youngsters were particularly welcoming. Everything Western is cool to them.
Also I've seen documentaries on British TV which portrayed the Japanese education systems is one of the best in the world.* How could it be otherwise when they lead the world in so many fields of industry?
So I'd definitely take the parent post with a large grain of salt. Informative, my ass.
*sucks to be a schoolkid though if you're not too bright, it's common practice to make kids do evening classes and summer school if they are having problems keeping up.
That would lead me to two conclusions... first, that your company finds you valuable and thus would work with you on a possible solution. Second... that if you QUIT your job to start your own company... that is entirely different matter. So quit your job with an official resignation. Setup your own corporation (Subchapter S probably) and then sub-contract yourself back to the business.
My old company used to send me all over on business -- to India, Brazil, and other places, for extended stays, yet never had any trouble with simply continuing my pay and benefits as usual. Granted that I'm not in California, but surely Californians face the same situation all the time? I've never run into anyone who stopped getting paid over a business trip.
You're going over, and you're going to do business, right? So it could be a business trip of unusual duration.
--
I don't want to rule the world... I just want to be in charge of mayonnaise.
... if your company paid for your wife's MS? Perhaps they should consider some kind of incentive for your wife to keep her in the U.S.?
I've heard of this being an issue in the reverse direction; say you live in Washington state and work as a contractor in California; you want to keep your CA time below a certain number to avoid having to pay CA for nexus in that state.
I've never heard of it being a problem in the other direction. If you're paying CA taxes as if you're a resident, why would the state care where you really are? The CA Franchise Tax Board (the most vicious collection agency in the US) doesn't get more money for finding you to be a non-resident, so they're not going to spend time trying to do that.
As for the 'labor board', I've been converted from an employee to a contractor and never heard a peep. Who's going to complain to them?
Good luck; sounds like a fun adventure.
Have you considered just staying in the states while she works on her degree? Can't she get a degree in the US?
Prevent email address forgery. Publish SPF records for y
I've continued to contract for a company in California despite the fact that I moved to Canberra, Australia during my tenure (though I've always been a contractor for them). At times the logistics of the time difference are a bit of a pain (especially with daylight savings, as currently CA's work hours are during Canberra's sleeping hours) but aside from this all has gone well.
I even picked up another short term contract in CA while I was in Oz (which I found truly ironic, seeing as how I moved to Oz primarily because of the lack of jobs in CA). That contract ended up being shorter then expected because the logistics proved to be too much for that company to deal with.
So in conclusion... logistically telecommuting THAT far is possible if both you and your employer are willing to put up with the time differences. Also... look into VoIP telephones like Vonage. I'd had gotten a plan with them if Australia had decently priced unlimited broadband in my area (stupid Queanbeyan being in NSW while considered to be Canberra by Telstra, but I digress).
In any event, enjoy your time there! And definitely don't give up the opportunity just because your job can't be continued for one reason or another.
"1984" was ment to be a warning, not a guidebook. You hear that Kim Jong-il!? BushCo?!
...A lot of state workers "retire" then shortly there after contract back with the state into their same or simular position (least in Cali). So there must be some way to sidestep the laws that are there to protect you =)
"1984" was ment to be a warning, not a guidebook. You hear that Kim Jong-il!? BushCo?!
Move to japan and incorporate a business there where you are the only employee. Have the california company contract out to the company in Japan. Now they aren't paying you, they're paying your company who is paying you.
No, I don't know if it is practical for a resident alien to incorporate a business in Japan... Just an idea (you should talk to a Japanese lawyer).
Education is a better safeguard of liberty than a standing army.
Edward Everett (1794 - 1865)
In point of fact, this whole conversation we're having amounts to a minor criminal conspiracy. Not that I really care -- in a nation swarming with undocumented immigrants, I can't get worked up over a U.S. citizen pretending to be in his home state when he's really overseas. Which I have known people to get away with in precisely this kind of situation.
Bearing in mind, of course, that the federal justice system does not consider "everybody does it" or "no harm, no foul" to be legal defenses!
You're making a lot of fuss over nothing. If you simply move overseas and keep your U.S. bank account open, get your paychecks direct deposited, and don't cause any fuss, the state of California will never know or care where you live. No one will investigate or sue on your behalf against your will. You file your tax returns and I promise the IRS and Calif. Dept of Revenue don't care where you live as long as you pay.
Getting money out of your U.S. bank in Tokyo is easy: just use your ATM card, or transfer the money online to a U.S. credit card account (you'll get better exchange rates).
The same principle would apply if you contracted: if neither party (you or your employer) complain the state won't know or care what's going on. And if you're contracting a bunch of labor laws go away... again no one from the state is going to investigate a case of ONE stray contractor, assuming they had reason to come around in the first place. Unless your employer has lots of dicey foreign employees already they will never get a visit from the INS. Those people have their hands full with real illegal immigrants and abusive employers to chase down theoretical abuses like you're describing.
Simply getting on a plane to Japan is not going to trigger any investigation by the labor dept. Just go, get your paychecks, and stop worrying about it. I lived and worked on and off in England working for both U.S. and English companies, and the only government agencies that ever care are the tax authorities.
TALK TO A LAWYER... Someone needs to make a song about this.
Substitute the word lawyer for Malkovich and just watch the scene in Being John Malkovich where he himself goes down the shaft and experiences what it's like to be John Malkovich.
Very entertaining film.
"Accept that some days you are the pigeon, and some days you are the statue." - David Brent, Wernham Hogg
Man this was my advice, I just needed to read this thread from top to bottom to see if it wasn't already said.
Don't ask, don't tell. Just go. Have a friend's address become your address for a year and send all your mail there. Pay your friend in beer, cash or goodwill to have him do it for you, don't just assume he will.
You are not going to get the $70,000 tax exemption for working out of the country and you will still have to pay California income taxes, but if it is important to you, you will do it.
Another way to do it is to move to Texas first and telecommute from there for a month or two, then move overseas. This will accomplish two things : prove to yourself and to your company that it can work, and quite honestly Texas could give a fsck if some California transplant wants to move to Japan and work for his company from there.
Glonoinha the MebiByte Slayer
I lived abroad for a couple of years and worked for a local company. My former employer (US) would occassionally contact me with questions/issues/new dev and pay me as a contractor for that time.
On top of that, I moved back and forth in the middle of the year. Hence, I earned half my income in the foreign country and the other half here. Other than them (foreign IRS) stiffing me for my tax refund (1500 EUR) when I moved back to the US, I had no issues.
My US money was taxed in the US and my foreign in that country. No sense in wasting time figuring out the details and legal technicalities. US taxes are generally lower and I'm sure this person has a CA or other US address. That's where you 'live', that's where you get paid, and that's where the US can believe you to be.
Now, it is very likely that no Japanese officials will ever find out if you never tell them, but you and your wife will have to lie every time you enter/leave Japan or renew visas. It's not the hardest lie in the world to make, but you will arouse additional suspiscion if you ever go back to the US on business.
IANAL and all the good stuff... you could start a company in Japan, and have your CA company outsource work to it. Or, have your CA company open a one-man 'branch' office.
Or, you could give me your job
Despite my company's willingness to keep me on, the labor laws make it very difficult, if not impossible, to do so when I don't physically work in the country.
This sounds like you need a visa to work in the United States. Is this the issue? If so, you're probably out of luck. In any case, I agree with another poster -- talk to a lawyer.
I telecommuted from Japan to California for a year. I'm an American citizen. The only difficulty I had was in obtaining a work VISA in Japan and the only real difficulty there was that my company was clueless about filing the paperwork. Since they had a Tokyo office, when they finally talked to the right lawyer, it went smoothly.
I kept a US address (a friend's house) and had everything go there so my company's records never had a Japanese address for me. But I didn't try to sort out the legal tax implications of the whole mess -- I just kept paying California taxes and let my partner pay Japanese taxes on his work. As a result, I kept all the same benefits, 401k and what not. I decided that trying to sort out the tax situation was probably so difficult that I just wasn't going to get into it. My US company was was unconcerned.
My biggest concern when moving to Japan was getting a good Internect connection. Fortunately, the local cable company had just started offering cable modem access.
Before I left for Japan, I added a Power of Attorney on my accounts. While I could have called them long distance, the time difference meant that it would have been difficult to resolve any problems that came up. I felt better knowing a trusted friend could sort things out for me, even though he never had to. (I would have used my parents, but they don't know much about brokerage-related stuff.) To transfer money, you can wire funds to Japanese banks (costs about $30). Your VISA card will work in some ATMs, check out the machines at post offices and Citibanks.
As for the silly person who classified Japanese people as "nasty" -- I disagree. Go to Japan, hang out in a different culture. It will be an adventure, even if it isn't perfect.