I wear a few medical devices which talk to each other, and other things, wirelessly. I have seen firsthand that the main device can connect to a computer and obey a command to download its history without any indication showing on the screen, no beep or other indication that anything is going on. If it can do that without my permission, what else is it open to? Could it obey a command to, say, silently overdose me?
It is clear from my experience that these devices were designed with convenience in mind, both for the user and the doctor's office, and with security in mind not at all. My worry is mitigated some because I don't believe anyone has it out for me personally.
As long as the collection of cells is not proven to be self aware I do not believe it matters what they do with those cells.
You haven't been proven to be self aware, so it doesn't matter what people do to you, either, I suppose?
Oh you say... sure you've been proven to be self aware? Not to a philosopher's satisfaction, you haven't. You can't disprove the solipsism hypothesis.
So I haven't been proven to be self aware, either. Not to your satisfaction, anyway.
So don't be so fast to demand proof of self-awareness. I'm upset on behalf of brains in vats, because they can't protest on their own behalf. They deserve, philosophically, our great caution, lest someone else be quick to deny you or me our rights.
There is an ancient concept called "sovereign immunity" which holds that rulers (people making laws) are automatically exempt from those laws.
Very ancient concept. What was it, Magna Carta, 1215*, that established that the sovereign was indeed subject to the law? Nowadays, sovereign immunity only applies to the state itself being immune from lawsuit, unless voluntarily waived. I think.
[0] - actually its 800th anniversary was 1 month ago today.
How do you figure? The keyspace is too vast for exploitation by enumeration... by any but the most well-funded adversaries, anyway. And if they're after you, there are easier ways.
You see the ethical dilemma? I don't see one in either TFA, only a question of whether a person would wish to have this information. So long as the person in question is the patient or his doctor, there's no ethical question at hand, merely a personal decision. Could you kindly explain the dilemma to my obviously symptomatic brain? And type slowly.
Damn beta? Damn this version, I hit "options" and my comment was wiped out. Bastages.
It is flimsy as an argument, especially as there's a better argument to be made.
Suppose the colonization succeeds, but only supplies can be sent, with no return trips? Due to lack of refueling capabilities on Mars this is a reasonable assumption for the next many years. Now imagine "many" is large enough that children may be born, live, and die on Mars before return trips become possible.
Now how is such a child, able-bodied, supposed to complete the pillar of Islam that is the Hajj, the pilgrimage to Mecca? Since this would be impossible the Mars-born would be spiritually incomplete or something. Since this scenario can be reasonably presupposed, a fatwa which reasoned along these lines might be... less silly.
Yea, I loved how my parents did everything out in the open; made it a heck of a lot easier to work around all those restrictions since I knew what they were.
(This actually isn't true - my parents were smart enough to know better)
"I was hit on the head by a meteorite once, so everyone should always wear hard-hats. By the way, I wasn't actually ever hit on the head by a meteorite."
Suppose we imagine the following: a large room with a level floor, with no open windows and still air all around. Put the proposed cart down somewhere. From the cart's point of view, there is a prevailing wind of zero no matter what direction you've placed it.
Now the claim is that the cart can go faster than the prevailing wind. So once you place the cart down, it should move on its own. Now just where did it get the energy to do that??!
If that's supposed to be the number of bytes on a disk, it must have been a strange-looking creature.
First we factor out 512 bytes per sector. That leaves 2874. Now 2874 has a prime factorization of 3 * 13 * 73. Since those are all prime the best possibility is that you're describing a three-sided floppy with 13 sectors per track and 73 tracks. (Or is that a 73-sided floppy with 13 tracks of 3 sectors? There are only 6 possibilities, none of which make any sense.)
What about the corridor of chompers in Galaxy Quest? Just imagine trying to wheel a food-service cart or carry an antigrav-attached magnetic bucket of antimatter down that one...
Perhaps you are thinking of toxoplasma gondii? It's basically the opposite of what you describe -- mice lose their fear of cats, and run towards them instead, versus cats losing interest in predation -- but it's still a damned nifty trick for a unicellular beastie.
You're refuting a different argument than I'm making.
You speak of getting the most from your car... I'm talking about getting the most from the road system. You can use the road system without a car, but you can do better by taking a fairly short course that society seems to think can be passed by just about anybody who cares to do so.
You speak of getting the most from literature... I'm talking about getting the most from the libraries. You can use the libraries if you can't read, but you can do better by taking a course of study that society seems to think can be achieved by just about anybody who cares to.
And similarly with computers. CLI competence can be taught in fairly short order, and once one CLI is learned the knowledge is easily reapplied in new instances. Why don't we expect that interested people should be able to do this, and that it is in the reach of just about anybody, as in these other situations?
Sure, take Skip Barber driving and you'll be safer on the roads, but I'm talking about Driver's Ed level classes here. Similarly, to extend your analogy for computers, sure you can take computer engineering courses, and build new PCI cards for your own custom use, but this is where hardly anyone goes, or needs to.
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Don't use stupid abbreviations. PoC could easily mean Piece of Crap.
Indeed, I read it as Proof of Concept without it making any sense.
If only.
I wear a few medical devices which talk to each other, and other things, wirelessly. I have seen firsthand that the main device can connect to a computer and obey a command to download its history without any indication showing on the screen, no beep or other indication that anything is going on. If it can do that without my permission, what else is it open to? Could it obey a command to, say, silently overdose me?
It is clear from my experience that these devices were designed with convenience in mind, both for the user and the doctor's office, and with security in mind not at all. My worry is mitigated some because I don't believe anyone has it out for me personally.
As long as the collection of cells is not proven to be self aware I do not believe it matters what they do with those cells.
You haven't been proven to be self aware, so it doesn't matter what people do to you, either, I suppose?
Oh you say... sure you've been proven to be self aware? Not to a philosopher's satisfaction, you haven't. You can't disprove the solipsism hypothesis. So I haven't been proven to be self aware, either. Not to your satisfaction, anyway.
So don't be so fast to demand proof of self-awareness. I'm upset on behalf of brains in vats, because they can't protest on their own behalf. They deserve, philosophically, our great caution, lest someone else be quick to deny you or me our rights.
According to the article, 40% of illegals are visa overstayers. This breaks the syllogism you attempted to imply all asunder.
There is an ancient concept called "sovereign immunity" which holds that rulers (people making laws) are automatically exempt from those laws.
Very ancient concept. What was it, Magna Carta, 1215*, that established that the sovereign was indeed subject to the law? Nowadays, sovereign immunity only applies to the state itself being immune from lawsuit, unless voluntarily waived. I think.
[0] - actually its 800th anniversary was 1 month ago today.
One day, dear Mars, unless I die first.
So you'll get to Mars unless you don't? That's profound or something.
How do you figure? The keyspace is too vast for exploitation by enumeration... by any but the most well-funded adversaries, anyway. And if they're after you, there are easier ways.
You see the ethical dilemma? I don't see one in either TFA, only a question of whether a person would wish to have this information. So long as the person in question is the patient or his doctor, there's no ethical question at hand, merely a personal decision. Could you kindly explain the dilemma to my obviously symptomatic brain? And type slowly.
Damn beta? Damn this version, I hit "options" and my comment was wiped out. Bastages.
It is flimsy as an argument, especially as there's a better argument to be made.
Suppose the colonization succeeds, but only supplies can be sent, with no return trips? Due to lack of refueling capabilities on Mars this is a reasonable assumption for the next many years. Now imagine "many" is large enough that children may be born, live, and die on Mars before return trips become possible.
Now how is such a child, able-bodied, supposed to complete the pillar of Islam that is the Hajj, the pilgrimage to Mecca? Since this would be impossible the Mars-born would be spiritually incomplete or something. Since this scenario can be reasonably presupposed, a fatwa which reasoned along these lines might be ... less silly.
Gandhi was Hindu, not Muslim.
Yea, I loved how my parents did everything out in the open; made it a heck of a lot easier to work around all those restrictions since I knew what they were.
(This actually isn't true - my parents were smart enough to know better)
"I was hit on the head by a meteorite once, so everyone should always wear hard-hats. By the way, I wasn't actually ever hit on the head by a meteorite."
TL;DR What??
Parent didn't say the oil boils, s/he said there was boiling going on (the water in the food) in oil. Which is quite correct.
Hey, look everybody! It's an amateur astronomer!
How many is that in turtles?
What I want to know is, who decided to call these MLDs instead of photon torpedoes?
Suppose we imagine the following: a large room with a level floor, with no open windows and still air all around. Put the proposed cart down somewhere. From the cart's point of view, there is a prevailing wind of zero no matter what direction you've placed it.
Now the claim is that the cart can go faster than the prevailing wind. So once you place the cart down, it should move on its own. Now just where did it get the energy to do that??!
The guy doesn't even write his dates in ISO standard format. He must think he's posting to the USA Wide Web.
If that's supposed to be the number of bytes on a disk, it must have been a strange-looking creature.
First we factor out 512 bytes per sector. That leaves 2874. Now 2874 has a prime factorization of 3 * 13 * 73. Since those are all prime the best possibility is that you're describing a three-sided floppy with 13 sectors per track and 73 tracks. (Or is that a 73-sided floppy with 13 tracks of 3 sectors? There are only 6 possibilities, none of which make any sense.)
Does that sort of thing bother you?
There is one already. It's known as fraud.
If only the Grateful Dead had thought of such a thing forty years ago, who knows what they might have gone on to achieve ...
What about the corridor of chompers in Galaxy Quest? Just imagine trying to wheel a food-service cart or carry an antigrav-attached magnetic bucket of antimatter down that one...
Perhaps you are thinking of toxoplasma gondii? It's basically the opposite of what you describe -- mice lose their fear of cats, and run towards them instead, versus cats losing interest in predation -- but it's still a damned nifty trick for a unicellular beastie.
And from whence did this old motherboard of yours derive its random noise, O von Neumann?
You're refuting a different argument than I'm making.
You speak of getting the most from your car... I'm talking about getting the most from the road system. You can use the road system without a car, but you can do better by taking a fairly short course that society seems to think can be passed by just about anybody who cares to do so.
You speak of getting the most from literature... I'm talking about getting the most from the libraries. You can use the libraries if you can't read, but you can do better by taking a course of study that society seems to think can be achieved by just about anybody who cares to.
And similarly with computers. CLI competence can be taught in fairly short order, and once one CLI is learned the knowledge is easily reapplied in new instances. Why don't we expect that interested people should be able to do this, and that it is in the reach of just about anybody, as in these other situations?
Sure, take Skip Barber driving and you'll be safer on the roads, but I'm talking about Driver's Ed level classes here. Similarly, to extend your analogy for computers, sure you can take computer engineering courses, and build new PCI cards for your own custom use, but this is where hardly anyone goes, or needs to.