Sun Mad Hatter Linux Desktop Revealed

magellan writes "Sun has released screenshots of its upcoming Mad Hatter Linux desktop. Mad Hatter includes GNOME, StarOffice, Evolution, and Mozilla. Sun has made minor modifications to Gnome to make it more familiar to Windows users. Sun's Mad Hatter, along with SuSE's new push on the desktop, could make Linux on the corporate desktop and laptop a bigger reality."

Comments

Windows...

[corkhead0]

If windows is so bad why do we keep trying to copy it?

fp

Re:Windows...

[xyvimur]

Maybe just to `convert' people. People are not willing to change their habits easily - so it's kind of bridge between `worlds'.
On the other hand I'm sick of all attempts to make WM's look'n'feel like windows environment. It's reasonable to a point, but `copying' every tiny detail is too much.

Re:Windows...

[Gyorg_Lavode]

The problem with windows was never it's gui. (Well, not for most users at least.)

Re:Windows...

[Spellbinder]

i think that it is a problem if you copy the windows guy for users used to windows
most user will think "Ohh, this looks like windows, so it has to work like windows!"
like on a cd player or a vcr all the buttons look same
and i think may will get angry if it does not
if the UI clearly differs from the windows the user will realise "Ohhh, this is something else, maybe i should make the tutorial that pops up, or look at some documentation!!"
i think a move away from windows would be a real chance to change and improve the UI dramatical
we should not keep things because users are used to them but because they are the easiest way to do the job

Re:Windows...

[Jace of Fuse!]

XP usability can be identical to Windows 95.

I don't suppose you know enough to change to classic mode, set up the classic look, and simply turn off all of the fluff?

Most people I know who don't want to upgrade to XP because they don't like the look are exactly the sorts of people that aren't technically savvy enough to even begin to think about dealing with the higher learning curve of *nix.

I have less respect for someone that uses Linux because they think it's perfect, than I do for someone that runs Windows but realizes that it isn't.

Re:Windows...

[Pharmboy]

If windows is so bad why do we keep trying to copy it?

Excellent question. I see two basic reasons.

1. We are already familiar with it, so the learning curve is less steep. Although the Windows desktop is not perfect, it IS pretty good, and the flexibility of Linux will allow more configurability under all circumstances, so it can be made less like Windows and more like what you want it to be, if you know how. If you don't know how to configure it, then the "Windows like" look is probably the best desktop anyway.

2. The closer the Linux desktop looks to Windows 9x/xp, the more people will be willing and/or able to use it. The more people that use it, the more likely that popular applications will get ported to it OR some group will form to develop an open source application to replace the proprietary software. Linux doesn't need 97% to be successful. 20% of the desktop market is more than enough for this to happen. We are about 17%+ at this time.

In business, a company that want to compete with larger companies in the same industry will often compete on the lower price part of the market. Units are less expensive to stock, and you can gain "economy of scale" at a lower investment level. You make the cheap stuff and sell it for less, then work your way up the ladder, eating away your competitor's market share. The same holds true for Linux.

As an advocate of Linux, who uses Windows and Linux, I have faith that the applications and commercial support for Linux will continue to grow. Broadening the appeal of Linux to mainstream users will excellerate this process, by increasing the potential financial returns for companies who are considering developing or porting applications on Linux.

You may or may not like software from Adobe, Macromedia, and the like, but many DO, and they will be more willing to switch if they can get their favorite software (or free alternatives to a degree). Me, I just want Photoshop on Linux so I can work up CMYK stuff. But we need less technical minded people using Linux before we will get broader support by developers.

It is in our own best interest to welcome the broadest range of Linux users, an open tent that all are welcome in. This includes people who don't want to know how the OS works, they just want it to work. When all is said and done, Linux has the best potential to do this.

Re:Windows...

[thornist]

Third, even if Windows is a nonoptimal way to operate, many, many people know how to use Windows and Windows software. They're familiar with Windows interface conventions, and anything different from Windows will face an immediate barrier.

Kind of like qwerty keyboards really...

Re:Kinda skimpish,

[0x0d0a]

I'm not so worried about Sun being a nice player. They've contributed some to GNOME development already.

The idea is to let Sun do the not-so-fun-but-profitable work of pulling people over to GNOME from Windows. Sun goes after Microsoft, and we get to keep making fun software.

A lot of the folks Sun's after aren't coders. There's lots of good software for coders out there, because OSS people like writing stuff that they can actually use themselves. Sun likes making money, so Sun does their thing.

I wish Sun had more of a Linux movement, but I suppose Solaris and BSD are really the only things out there that can compete with Linux and more, and Sun wants to keep their sunk investment in place.

Launch = Start = Sigh

[h00pla]

I know this kind of desktop is supposed to give MS refugees a warm, fuzzy feeling, but I am so sick of the Start/Launch/[Whatever] button. Sheesh! Free yourselves from this Microsoft cloning and get something like Fluxbox.

Re:Launch = Start = Sigh

[jeffehobbs]

No KIDDING. How totally, completely dull. Congratulations, you've slavishly copied Windows 95; now how about doing something, anything else... linux has so much potential to be the back end to a truly revolutionary user interface, but it seems to be stuck on the "give the users what they know" stage -- even if what they know is a retarded, confusing GUI mess. What year is this again?

Apple got a lot of flack for interface changes in MacOS X, and some of that flack was for good reason, but at least they tried, and continue to be trying; check out Expose for a great example. I'd love to see some of that kind of innovation coming from the Linux camp, there would be a hell of a lot more reason to "switch" (or at least check out linux at all) if there was some easily demonstrable reason it was better than Windows/MacOS X/etc.

For most Americans, if "free" is not compelling enough then "equal" is probably not compelling enough either; there has to be something tangible linux offers that they can't get on their existing platform. And this ain't it.

~jeff

Re:Launch = Start = Sigh

[garcia]

this is Insightful?

People do NOT care about "freeing themselves from MS", they don't care about speed (we have insanely fast CPUs now), and they certainly don't want anything other than what they already are used to.

People HATED XP when it first came out (and most still do) because it was "different" and they couldn't find anything.

We have seen plenty of articles on here about how people are finding applications easily when switching from Windows-based OSs. They find the "start menu", they then find applications that are "familiar".

You think that a "freed desktop look" is going to have easy to find applications that are familiar?

We want people to switch but we don't want to make that switch easy? Get real.

Re:Launch = Start = Sigh

[xigxag]

Yeah, I'd like to see a major Linux player working on something beyond the bitmapped desktop. If Apple can do it, surely IBM with its vast resources can get cracking in this arena. Even the alleged copycat Microsoft is actively developing a scalable desktop solution for Longhorn. How about SVG? Any implementations of that on the desktop in development?

Re:Why would anyone support this?

[garcia]

I wouldn't want to support someone so wishy washy

You might not (and the rest of the "community") but the real world people do want to listen to Sun.

You press start to stop the computer

[yerricde]

It's VERY well done, and some of the things (like the start menu and the systray) are very well done.

You press start to stop the computer.

You press start... to stop the computer!

And pressing the Logo key between Ctrl and Alt will unceremoniously dump the player out of a fast-action full-screen game.

The "standard" Windows GUI, is quite good though.

The graphical shell lacks some things. Does it have a way to search for file names by regular expressions, by exact substring/phrase, or even by all the words? I can't get Windows 2000 to search by anything other than any of the word stems.

Re:You press start to stop the computer

[fault0]

I really doubt that a company that current has more than 90% market share, and focuses it's products on 90% of the populace are going to worry about an obscure feature such as regular expressions that only 1% of the populace uses.

But hey, that's just me.

Re:You press start to stop the computer

[leonardop]

... are going to worry about an obscure feature such as regular expressions that only 1% of the populace uses

All flammable opinions aside, this is a very sad fact (I don't know if 1% is correct, but the point is still valid).

To some extent, regexps suffer from the same problem many Free Software projects do, and it's that a lot of people simply don't want to get very far along the learning curve. We tend to live the moment and try to get the job done as fast as possible, so investing time learning something useful is usually pretty hard, no matter how blatantly obvious the potential benefits are.

Imagine how much efficiency could be gained from teaching at least some basic regexp skills to secretaries, just to mention one example.

Actually, many of us who use regexps everyday, still do it poorly sometimes.

Jeffrey Friedl put it clearly in his book "Mastering Regular Expressions":

You might think that with their wide availability, general popularity, and unparalleled power, regular expressions would be employed to their fullest, wherever found. You might also think that they would be well documented, with introductory tutorials for the novice just starting out, and advanced manuals for the expert desiring that little extra edge. Sadly, that hasn't been the case.

Re:You press start to stop the computer

[Pseudonym]

You press start to stop the computer.

So? I've been quitting programs for a decade or so using the "File" menu. Since when has quitting a program been a file operation?

The semantics of "Start" is that to do anything, you "start here". That actually makes more sense to me than putting Quit under the File menu.

Re:Looks to much like Windows 95

[de Selby]

This looks like a step backwards compared to Mac OS X, RedHat's Bluecurve, or early screen shots of longhorn.

I guess that depends on what you think of OSX, Bluecurve and Longhorn. :)

Seriously though, I think interfaces have just been getting worse. (Ex: OSX, WinXP.) Someone really needs to cull the eye candy from the default setup and instead go back to ease of use.

This actually looks viable...

[deviator]

This desktop is not targeted at most readers of /. - so don't judge it based on what _you'd_ like your desktop to be.

Linux will _never_ gain any major ground in the coporate desktop world until it looks and feels like Windows. Most non-computer-industry types do not like change--no matter what the benefits are. This project appears to fill that very important hole - something that's almost a Windows "workalike" while eschewing any proprietary Microsoft code.

This *looks* good, a bit cleaner than WinXP & it is laid out a bit nicer. Things like "This Computer" instead of the pandering, cheesier "My Computer" set it apart yet the thing looks instantly familiar to anyone who has used Windows.

Kudos to Sun for finally getting the desktop right.

gaack

[sootman]

Can we *please* not end every Linux desktop submission with "[perhaps this] could make Linux on the corporate desktop and laptop a bigger reality."?!?!?!

*If* it happens (and that's a big "if") it'll take years, and it's entirely likely that it won't. Assuming Microsoft has only 90% desktop marketshare, that's 10% split among Apple, Linux, etc. That means *no one* is even *close* to MS's dominance on the desktop. (Remember the Princess Bride? Think "land war in Asia") So why does anyone think Sun or Mandrake or anyone else is going to be the one who makes PHBs say "Well, gee, if Sun is behind it, I'll switch everything tomorrow!"?

I like Linux as much as the next guy, but this pie-eyed optimism is not getting anyone anywhere. Hell, headlines here oughtta read "Company X introduces Linux desktop that's nicer than last year's; world continues not to care."

Re:gaack

[wytcld]

As someone who immediately liked Linux because it was so much like ZCPR (a CP/M replacement far better than DOS ever became) I can see the point of having Linux be familiar to Doze users. As someone who once accepted that there'd never be a future without 1-2-3 being the spreadsheet and WordPerfect writing the texts, I can tell you that present dominance is no guarantee of future success.

How did Word take over from WordPerfect? Word always assumed the user didn't want to learn so much. For command line users this was the wrong assumption - people who "talk" to their machines tend to enjoy learning. But it turned out to be just the right assumption once we went visual and pointing began to suffice for communication. Companies started firing their secretaries and having execs do their own typing, and the execs just wanted to get the job done the simplest way. Then they wanted to have the remaining secretaries' docs be compatible, so they forced stupidifying software on them too. In Word-land, document writes you.

Hello. Cheap, fast, free, doesn't catch viruses, doesn't crash ... if Linux can add "and you don't have to hardly learn anything" plus the obvious advantage of being more compatible with your company geeks, it could take over within two years, the same as Win/Word/Excel did. And old farts like me can fire up jstar and pretend we're back on an old hotrodded WordStar ZCPR system.

Annoying that it's Gnome

[soloport]

Ok, I know I'm going to be flammed for this one, but here goes:

Please, Gnome developers, switch Cancel and Ok to a consistent Ok(LHS) and Cancel(RHS)... Please?!!!

So annoying! I'd use Gnome, be proud of it and recommend to all, if not for this one, single, pull-my-hair-out irritation.

As it is, every time I try to introduce Gnome to someone (Mac or Windows user), that's the first place they stumble. Then I have to say, "Well... Eheh... Why don't we try KDE. Mk?".

Look, it sure seems that the whole left-to-right-reading world thinks this way. I think Gnome is a terrific windowing environment, otherwise.

[puts asbestos suit on, real fast]

Cancel and OK placement

[LauraW]

>Please, Gnome developers, switch Cancel and Ok to a consistent Ok(LHS) and Cancel(RHS)... Please?!!!

There's actually some fairly solid UI research that says the OK button should usually be on the RHS of a dialog. People who speak and read left-to-right languages like English tend to scan a dialog box from upper-left to lower-right, and their brains really want to click on whatever is in the lower-right corner of the dialog. Thus, the default button (usually OK) should almost always go there.

I remember reading this in a book on user interface design about 10 or 15 years ago. I think the research was done at apple, but it wasn't an Apple book. It was a collection of articles in a big blue paperback with a poorly-designed walk/don't-walk sign on the cover, but I can't remember the title. Now I may have to go dig through the boxes in my closet.

Suns commitment, SCO

[ultrabot]

Anyone wonder how Sun is suddenly making so much noise about Linux? They expect us to ignore all the recent backstabbing efforts (regarding SCO FUD) by merely distracting our attention with pretty toys?

Expect a statement along the lines of "but to really get the benefit of the cutting edge Mad Hatter, along with a robust, industrial strength OS, take a look at this Solaris-x86 over here..."

Sun certainly has a trust problem to deal with.