Slashdot Mirror
Statistically Optimal Music
ShinyPlasticBag writes "'Eigenradio makes its optimal music by analyzing in real time dozens of radio stations at once. When our bank of computers has heard enough music, it will go to work on making more just like it. Since we listen to so much music all the time, Eigenradio is always on and always live. What you hear on Eigenradio is the best of the New Music, distilled and de-correlated. One song on Eigenradio is worth at least twenty songs on old radio.' Listen up here or here (SHOUTcast)."
I quickly checked out the site and hit the #1 "Listen" link. At first, it was an interesting mix... in fact, it sounded very much like tuning an AM radio between stations, except that the overlapping songs were in clearly-defined hi-fi.
It was jarring at first, but then I got into a groove. They're right, the beat and the ambient voices have a strange but familiar variance.
Unfortunately, I don't think I'll be able to keep up the experience. After about a minute, the rhythms stopped, replaced by a metallic, toneless hum.
Cool... I've seen the Slashdot effect before, but now I'm getting to hear it!
Footnote: the rhythm has returned, but there's a lot more buzz than before. Will be interesting to hear what happens when the non-subscriber flood hits.
Stressed? Me? Of course not. Stress is what a rubber band feels before it breaks, silly.
What does the RIAA have to say about you using their copyrighted material to generate music - music which is arguably not unique, but rather derivatives of their property?
Somehow I don't think posting a link to a shoutcast-stream on slashdot is the smartest thing to do...
I've been listening to the stream for 5 minutes or so now. I can't help thinking that this is what a band of R2D2's would sound like, with C3P0 in random memory access as lead vocalist.
It's so very electronic and unnatural sounding, like nothing of this world.
-Ryan
AUWYHSTOT (Acronyms are Useless When You Have to Spell Them Out Too)
1. Horizontal scrolling required
2. Tiny
3. Virtually no links to anything
4. Very small amount of information
John.
For the love of god, we will give your our women and our money, but make it stop!
Karma: Marginal (mostly due to the border around the website)
Now, if there was anything worth listening to on the radio, I'd say they'd have something, but hey don't because "Garbage In = Garbage Out".
While hacking up pig snouts and horse hooves might make for an interesting, ummmm... "sausage", it's still nasty dead stuff...
RS
Shoes for Industry. Shoes for the Dead.
Somehow I don't think posting a link to a shoutcast-stream on slashdot is the smartest thing to do...
Don't worry, it doesn't have long to live
To make laws that man cannot, and will not obey, serves to bring all law into contempt.
--E.C. Stanton
IMHO this is yet another example of how academic projects are judged by the amount of attention they attract, rather than on whether they advance the state of the art. This is the reason why people like Kevin Warrick can stick a dog tag in their arm and go around claiming they are the world's first cyborg - all while being lavished with attention by the mainstream media.
All of this leads to an academic system that increasingly rewards self pubicity at the expense of real reasearch.
Oh, BTW - I listened to the radio station, it sounds like a garbled mess - I certainly couldn't determine the point of this from listening to it, but then I could say the same thing about rap.
When our bank of computers has heard enough music, it will go to work on making more just like it.
But what will the RIAA do when there are no more artists ?
I wonder if you can do the same thing with video... hm.
--- If I had a funny sig too, you might be laughing now.
One song on Eigenradio is worth at least twenty songs on old radio.
i'm trying to tune in but i'm not hearing anything...i'd say that makes it better than old radio...
I'll turn into a supernova and burn up everything. Well I'll turn into a black little hole and you'll turn into string.
Get off those links. Some of us actually listen to this on a regular basis (or rather, all day at work) and it helps us be more productive. Give me back my noise please. I can't get anything done without it...
Don't Ask Questions. I don't know the answers and even if I did I wouldn't tell you.
Reader's Digest comes to music.
Beat and pitch.
Make the derivative "music" at least try to keep these consistant, or at least slowly varying. If you can do that, this might work well.
Interesting that a bank of computers replicating human music can be so much more interesting than humans trying to replicate human music. I guess they have have a long way to go before they can make music as boring as most major record labels. "It's a feature, not a bug."
Maybe partying will help...
And then... hit a college station playing this noise!
What a refreshment! What a way to cleanse the pallette. No chords. No lyrics. No beats. No guitars. Nothing recognizable at all! Just wonderful organized noise.
Then after listening to a LOT of it, especially the stuff that you know was actually composed by a human, something new happens:
You start to listen to the world around you (traffic, nature, conversations) as if it was composed. Imagining a single intention behind the noise of the world. It really is a beautiful mindset. See the restaurant scene in the movie "32 Short Films About Glenn Gould." http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0108328/
If you haven't spent a lot of time with music like this, try it. If you hate it after 5 minutes, listen for 10. If you hate it after 10, listen for 20. Try to appreciate it.
--
Derek Sivers, CD Baby
http://www.cdbaby.com
I don't know what radio stations they are sampling, but after a few minutes of listening it sounded like a bunch of "pop-tart" music strewn together being blasted over AM radio...
I used to always joke that you could take all of the Spear Britney albums and--if mixed properly--you could make one long song that didn't change themes, tones or melody once...I'm thinking this is one step closer to proving that theory.... Maybe it was just the time I tuned in--who knows?
There is one thing I find curious though, when I pick from 20 stations in my area, they are all playing the same 9 songs... I hope they have a better selection to choose from than I do!
"God is dead!" - Nietzsche
"Nietzsche is dead!" - God
Kinda reminds me of that "Super Recipe" generator I engineered in my lair beneath the Pacific Ocean a few weeks ago. It makes super recipes based on good recipes that you input into it. I like ice cream and filet mignon, so the generator created a filet cream recipe that was supposed to be super but was terrible.
Blast!
pi = 3.141592653589793helpimtrappedinauniversefactory7
Wow, this really cleared up how this works for me! Thanks for such a clear, informative diagram!
100101011 010110101 000101010 1110010101
100010101 010001010 101011010 1001010001
001010101 101010001 010110001 0101010010....
What an interesting comment, I had to think about that one for a second. Generally Indo-European text reads across rather than up and down, so if a paragraph is horizontally larger than your window you have to pan twice to read each line, which is very annoying. However if a paragraph extends vertically a single scroll is sufficient for each page of text.
If you listen carefully, you can hear the server whimper as it slowly melts under a slashdotting.
"In our tactical decisions, we are operating contrary to our strategic interest."
Those of you enjoying these ideas might want to check out John Cage's wonderful video, I have nothing to say and I am saying it.
:-) In many ways he has incorporated Eastern thinking into Western arts.
John Cage was a revolutionary philosopher-artist-composer with some good ideas on how to be happy
Spoon not. Fork, or fork not. There is no spoon.
anyone look at the page source?
I bet this is how they Really make the music ...
Why aren't you encrypting your e-mail?
This idea has sparked my interest, but the streams are most definately Slashdotted. Would it be possible for someone who has the stream to use Peercast to help take some of the burden off the server?
Ever heard of an Eigenvector?
eigenvector
A vector which, when acted on by a particular
linear transformation, produces a scalar multiple of the
original vector. The scalar in question is called the
eigenvalue corresponding to this eigenvector.
It should be noted that "vector" here means "element of a
vector space" which can include many mathematical entities.
Ordinary vectors are elements of a vector space, and
multiplication by a matrix is a linear transformation on
them; smooth functions "are vectors", and many partial
differential operators are linear transformations on the space
of such functions; quantum-mechanical states "are vectors",
and observables are linear transformations on the state
space.
An important theorem says, roughly, that certain linear
transformations have enough eigenvectors that they form a
basis of the whole vector states. This is why Fourier
analysis works, and why in quantum mechanics every state is a
superposition of eigenstates of observables.
An eigenvector is a (representative member of a) fixed point
of the map on the projective plane induced by a linear
map.
No, but it's great for epileptic spasms...
They say the first thing to go is your penis. Well, it's either that or your brain. I forget which...
... that this site is a wonderfully clever troll? Once you get past the notion that anyone could possibly be serious about Eigenmusic, satire is all that makes sense. A tip of the hat to the creators!
The future is here. It's just not evenly distributed yet. -- William Gibson
It would be interesting to hear the differences in "statistically optimal" music produced as a result of correlating different genres of music.
E.g., would people who only listened to Rock be more inclined to like the output of this program if its input was limited to Rock music? Could it create an "optimal" song?
The Problem: A few years ago a station from Stockton, California, known as "Your Christian Companion" (KYCC) set up a translator in the eastern suburbs of Sacramento. They licensed a translator on 90.1FM (translator number K211DF), and since then, the once listenable signal of KDVS has been knocked off the spectrum there. Since then, KCJH/KYCC, the station that preaches God's word, has been expanding, setting up stations to cause interference with other stations like non-profit student stations similar to KDVS. In the East Bay area near Livermore, you can hear KYCC on 2 to 4 different frequencies, covering up many Bay Area college radio stations. The station is a fundraising tool for itself, collecting money to go toward buying new translators to feed their programming via automated procedure via satellite. This conservative entity is using non-commercial educational frequencies as a loophole to rebroadcast satellite programming in effort to gain more money for their own causes. Because of this, listeners in some parts of Sacramento cannot tune into KDVS. You can help try to get the FCC to move their translator from 90.1 FM to another frequency by making your voice heard to the FCC. Here's how you can help. Write an email stating you listen to KDVS radio, the only college/student run station in the area. State that KDVS 90.3FM is a Sacramento area station at 9200 watts, but it cannot be heard in some parts of Sacramento because 90.1 FM interferes with it. The station used to be heard in all of Sacramento, but since 90.1 FM came on the air, it causes so much interference that it essentially blocks the signal in some areas. (You may add other comments).
Give Your First and Last Name
Your Address
Email Address
Email your statement to todd@kdvs.org. with "INTERFERECE COMPLAINT" in the subject heading It will then be compiled with other letters and sent to the FCC jointly.
You may also reach the FCC at their web site: www.fcc.gov. and make comments there
KYCC's growing station list
90.1 Stockton
89.1 Livington
89.7 Antioch/Pittburg
90.5 Livermore
91.1 Chico
90.3 Dublin
93.5 Vacaville
87.7 Benicia
90.1 Sacramento
99.5 Elk Grove
91.3 Provo Utah
89.9 Alamogordo, NM
89.1 El Paso, Texas
88.3 Reno, NV
Slashdot's first reaction to VMware
M3U is a text file containing a newline-delimited list of resource identifiers from which to stream audio or video. They can be URIs or local paths. XMMS, Winamp, and many other popular media players can handle M3U files; some save their playlists in this format.
Will I retire or break 10K?
Eigen is a fairly well-established prefix in quantum mechanics (eigenvalues, eigenvectors, eigenstates etc.) An eigenstate is one of an infinite set of orthogonal solutions to a set of equations, an eigenvalue is a unique value (often energy) corresponding to a particular eigenstate. Thus I suspect in this case the term is supposed to mean something like "unique radio", which seems at least reasonably appropriate, if rather skewed. I suspect you're wrong about it being a comment on the state of the music industry, at least primarily. It seems like they're just using radio stations as a source of material 'cos it happens to be readily available. 'Course, the fact that it can't be much /worse/ than commercial radio is pretty ironic ;-)
"'I pass the test,' she said. 'I will diminish, and go into the West, and remain Galadriel.'"
- JRR Tolkien.
If you haven't spent a lot of time with music like this, try it. If you hate it after 5 minutes, listen for 10. If you hate it after 10, listen for 20. Try to appreciate it.
Uh, why? I checked eigenradio out a week or two back and, in addition to being boring as hell, it was physically painful to listen to. But I made myself stick with it for a bit, in an attempt to see what was so wonderful about it. I failed miserably.
So, would you care to go beyond your admonition to "try to appreciate it" and tell us just what you think is there to appreciate? Is it just your "beautiful mindset" of believing the world to be overarchingly ordered or is there some other reason you're telling us to continue listening to something we hate?
When our bank of computers has heard enough music, it will go to work on making more just like it. Too late Eigenradio. The music industry has been doing this for years.
Got Shadowrun? Awakened Worlds
I think you just defined ambient music.
John Cage
'makes its optimal music by analyzing in real time dozens of radio stations at once. When our bank of computers has heard enough music, it will go to work on making more just like it. Since we listen to so much music all the time, Eigenradio is always on and always live.'
That's all well and good, but what if more than half of those stations happen to be playing music that sucks? (even good stations use filler too..)
The diagrams aren't intended to say anything, they're eye-noise just like the music is ear-noise. You're critiquing the ketchup stains on the table.
If you need anymore clues we're here for ya, buddy.
[-- Trust the Monkey --]
So the term eigenmusic could be used to describe the underlying defining characteristic of a music. You could say that all Britney Spears' music has the same eigenmusic.
Unlimited growth == Cancer.
What makes you think that the slashdot effect changes the content of the music?
Actually, I think what he was trying to say was something along the lines of:
In Soviet Russia, music slashdots you.
I'm slightly scared. This is a technological curiosity of its own might, granted, but this prompts me to envision a rather gloom future. Originally I've thought that the rise of networking would eliminate the entire corporate structure involved in music-making and be replaced with system where everyone can give a go at composing, publish their work online and where the best artists could probably managed to make quite a fortune with voluntary donations.
However, could record companies do the ultimate thing, a la Nineteen Eighty-Four, and create a computer program that produces the music most of us want to hear? Would that mean the end of human creativity on that level of play, or would this algorithm be doomed to failure? It might only take a few years to adjust, and you'd end up liking it.
Of course, a prudent question is, if music can be replicated so easily, what's the point in appreaciating it any longer, as it's clearly something even machines can do well...
Next up: television series writing machines. But, oh wait, we already have reality tv...
Statistical analysis is just not the way to write music, except perhaps for tone deaf nerds, and record execs. You have every right to play whatever form of music you choose. I have every right to listen to something else! If it got groove I do not care. I have never heard any computer generated music that can even come close to a great composer or musician, the differences are obvious. What appeals to the audiance is never the way to write music. It is how to please record companies, but is artless garbage that is as quickly forgotten as fast as it is created.
OH THE SHAME I fell off the wagon and use sigs again!
Anyone who takes an intermediate signal processing class learns about Princ. Component Analysis (PCA). Loosely, it attempts to represent a set of signals as weighted, linear combinations of sub-signals..... The technique allows you to find the pieces of signal that are common to the overall set. In this case I'm sure they are lining up some radio feeds, performing PCA, doing a little trivial stuff to it, and synthesizing their own "music" based on some transformation of the PCA weights and computed vectors. Not a big deal -- more like a one afternoon project for a grad student, or maybe a class project for a few undergrads...
Aphex Twin's music has done this for me. At first it just sounds like crappy noise randomly generated, but then you just "get it"...
Aphex Twin's music spans all forms of electronic music, Selected Ambient Works Vol. 2 is an incredibly WONDERFUL bedtime album, while Drukqs is a great album while working... There's something about the almost chaotic aspect of it that keeps my mind focused.
It's tough to go back to listening to mainstream radio after experiencing music that changes a person's perspective.
To anyone who ignores/avoids ambient music, or music like most of the Aphex Twin library, I give the same advice, just keep listening, and wait... Eventually, it'll just click, and you win.
here are two sample mp3's from when i could access the servers. i'll keep the torrents up for a couple of hours or until the server dies...
.zip of two .torrent files
Computers writing music will never happen. At some level, it will always be people using computers as tools to write music. But we have that already (ie Mixing of music).
:-)) What classifies this as a music composition? It makes a number of algorithmic choices to create a new sound.
First off, this is a single aleotoric (sp?) composition that is extremely similar to John Cage's 'radio symphony' produced a while ago (I don't remember the date or the exact title, but I'm sure someone will correct (or flame) me about it
Even with the lack of posted details about the algorithm, there are a number of assumptions in the algorithm that explain some of the impressions reported on Slashdot.
"Eigenradio plays only the most important frequencies..." - right off the bat, we're assuming that frequencies are important to how we listen to music. Research in psychoacoustics suggests that this isn't the case - we stream music into 'parts' organized by the start and stop points of frequency bands. These streams are then processed for whether the pitch/timbre/rhythm patterns are recognized or not. This is partially demonstrated by the way we talk of 'voices' or 'instruments' having pitch and color (timbre) and of particular songs having 'a good groove'. Any diagram describing this kind of process would have feedback accross the whole diagram, so I doubt its a part of the algorithm used.
"...only the beats with the highest entropy..." Repetition is a feature of all music everywhere - the only musical universal known. Similarly, the 'ideal' degree of entropy in music (how much it repeats) tends to be suprisingly high - music with the highest entropy is actually 'bad'. This differs from culture to culture, but low entropy in good music is the norm, not the exception. Music that has 'high entropy' as a feature already have two strikes against it.
"If you took a bunch of music and asked it, 'Music, what are you, really?' you'd hear Eigenradio singing back at you." This assumes that all music is uniform and can be summaraized into a single source. Contrary to this assumption, there are significant differences between genre types - they exploit different mechanisms for producing pleasure in their listeners. This doesn't even begin to touch non-Western music (even non western pop music). Some of these mechanisms are mutually exclusive (polyphonic music versus homophonic music). An 'average' or 'distilled' reproduction ends up activating no psychological hooks very well and ends up sounding boring.
"They know what you really want to hear. " This assumes that the creator can know what "music" is for you. Each culture hears music differently - with different qualifications for what makes music 'good'. Brain scans of trained classical musicians and their untrained counterparts conducted both in Japan and in the US demonstrated differences in the way these sounds were processed among the four groups. The differences between trained and untrained listeners was radical. Not only do tastes differ, but the music you hear is not the same music I hear - even if the same sound is presented. No single piece of music can legitimately make this claim.
The number you have dialed is imaginary, please rotate your phone 90 degrees and try again.
...Cmdr. Data is to stand-up comedy. ("Take my Worf, please.") Technically, this is not an original concept, as Data basically was doing almost exactly this in one scene in an episode. He had like 7 different pieces of music playing cranked at the same time that he was listening to/analysing when LeForge entered the scene and screamed at him to make it stop (or at least just play one... or something like that). 1) I agree with LeForge on this. Make it stop. 2) Does this mean Universal has a copyright for Eigenradio already?
Humans can make music using computers.
Computers can't make music using computers.
Or even radio stations.
The very idea is disgusting. Has people forgot how
good real and sincere music, played live by people
playing it for the love of it sounds like?
This only reminds how disgutingly consumer-based
our society is.
Does anyone else find that sort of metallic noise familiar? It sounds uncannily like the effect of an audio processor called a ring modulator - also known as a multiplier. What's the betting they're just multiplying together all the inputs?
Ceterum censeo subscriptionem esse delendam.