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14 Years Later, Cold Fusion Still Gets The Cold Shoulder

segment writes "It has been 14 years since two little-known electrochemists announced what sounded like the biggest physics breakthrough since Enrico Fermi produced a nuclear chain reaction on a squash court in Chicago. Using a tabletop setup, Stanley Pons and Martin Fleischmann, of the University of Utah, said they had induced deuterium nuclei to fuse inside metal electrodes, producing measurable quantities of heat. That was the opening bell for one of the craziest periods in science. Cold fusion, if real, promised to solve the world's energy problems forever. Scientists around the world dropped what they were doing to try to replicate the astounding claim." The linked AP story (carried on SFGate.com) is about the Tenth International Conference on Cold Fusion, which took place in the last week of August.

69 of 561 comments (clear)

  1. "Still gets the cold shoulder" by koreth · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Maybe it still gets the cold shoulder because there didn't turn out to be anything to it? Nah, stilly me, must be some kind of conspiracy.

    1. Re:"Still gets the cold shoulder" by naasking · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The whole situation was handled poorly by all parties involved. The politics doesn't mean there wasn't a phenomenon worthy of investigation.

    2. Re:"Still gets the cold shoulder" by LS · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Did you RTFA or anything else on cold fusion in the last few years??? There IS something, though whether it is caused by cold fusion or not is the question. In fact, the article is specifically about people like you who deny things before they investigate them.

      LS

      --
      There is a fine line between being a cultivated citizen and being someone else's crop. - A. J. Patrick Liszkie
    3. Re:"Still gets the cold shoulder" by d'fim · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Whatever "it" is, it is NOT fusion.

      So call it something else already, and maybe those who study whatever "it" is may have a shot at being taken seriously.

      --
      Adherence to the truth is a form of disloyalty.
    4. Re: "Still gets the cold shoulder" by Black+Parrot · · Score: 4, Insightful


      > It was investigated by all the best labs in the world. Result: they have no theory; they have no data.

      Never stopped other varieties of kook from sticking to their story.

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    5. Re:"Still gets the cold shoulder" by d'fim · · Score: 4, Insightful

      .....adding to my own post:

      They have been studying "it" for 14 years now, and they are STILL at the "we suspect that something is there, but we don't really have a clue as to what it might be, nor do we even have any real evidence that anything is really there at all" stage.

      Nonetheless, cold fusion conspiracy theorists like to point out that a "major Japanese corporation" has a working model that is due to be demonstrated Real Soon Now.....

      and has been so due for 14 years so far.

      --
      Adherence to the truth is a form of disloyalty.
    6. Re:"Still gets the cold shoulder" by Professor+D · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Do _you_ understand what science is and how it works?

      The cold fusion-ists can't even agree amongst themselves what that "something" is! Heat? Neutrons? Helium? Alchemy? In the quantities they claim, all three are DIFFERENT and MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE of each other. Only the low-level, low-rate neutron claim is even consistent with nuclear fusion!!!!

      What seems to go over the article writer's head completely is that the claims _were_ looked at, scrutinized, dissected, analyzed and critiqued already FOURTEEN years ago!

      Any failure of communication between the cold fusion camp and outside scientists falls at the feet of the cold fusionists themselves for failing to show that their results are real.

      Put another way : The writer of the article might as well criticize physicists for failing to scrutinize the astrological predictions printed in their local newspaper.

    7. Re:"Still gets the cold shoulder" by aagha · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I wouldn't call it a conspiracy, but I would say that there were a series of steps that occurred to turn Fleischmann and Pons' discovery into a joke when it was real, serious science.

      If you have a chance, check out the book The Scientist, the Madman, the Thief and Their Lightbulb: The Biggest Scandal in the History of Science. Other than greats like Tesla, it talks about the political maneuvering that took place at their university, and institutions and other scientists with which they worked.

      Fleischmann and Pons' discovery may be considered a hoax by many, but in fact their research has been duplicated (and often with even better "cold fusion" results) by hundreds of scientists all over the world, including here in the US, Japan, and India.

      Before you pan something as a conspiracy, do try and do a bit more research, read a book or two on the subject, and ask yourself if you didn't have all the information you needed to make an informed decision in the first place.

    8. Re:"Still gets the cold shoulder" by pfdietz · · Score: 4, Interesting

      No, in the opinion of the vast majority of scientists the 'evidence' (such as it is, being most self-contradictory) is the result of misinterpretation, error, or outright fraud.

      Nonsense like this breaks out periodically in physics. Remember polywater? The '14 KeV neutrino'? The 'fifth force'? The 'Allison Effect'? 'N rays'? All of these were big in their day, but died away because there turned out not to be anything there.

    9. Re:"Still gets the cold shoulder" by Noren · · Score: 3, Insightful
      You're right.

      It was the irreproducability of the alleged results that meant that there wasn't a phenomenon worthy of further investigation.

    10. Re:"Still gets the cold shoulder" by NortWind · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Lots of interesting things happen with electrons in crystals, especially in stretched crystals. I'm not claiming that I know that cold fusion works, I just object to folks saying that "it goes against physics" as thought physics were a religion or something. If cold fusion were a fact, physics could accomodate it easily in the existing framework of things. No need to change quantum mechanics or anything, just some previously unknown nano-scale effects. We've already seen some things like this that did pan out, the light microscope that uses a metalized glass fiber with an aperature smaller than 1 wavelength of light to illuminate the specimen.

    11. Re:"Still gets the cold shoulder" by turboalberta · · Score: 3, Interesting

      My there friend, if the New Scientist runs a story about it and can't decide, as some respected scientist actually do at this moment of time, that it is all a fake I can't really think that there isn't something going on that we do not understand. Something is going on. Whether it is something spectacular or not is to be seen but things like contradictory evidence pops up everywhere, even amongst "respected" scientists. It's difficult to refute it saying that results are contradictory. Time will tell.
      Anyway, if scientists still are going for it ten years after the facts, risking their careers, I can't think nothing is going on. Think twice, quite a lot of what are accepted facts nowadays where called totally outrageous and ungrounded at the time they were published. History teaches us not to dismiss something at first sight, even if it seems totally outrageous.

      --
      I sometimes think that God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability. -- Oscar Wilde
    12. Re:"Still gets the cold shoulder" by Kenneth · · Score: 3, Informative

      Certainly their results have been duplicated by many, but for every duplication that produced excess heat, their has been two that fail to do so. An experiment that can only be replicated by believers isn't science, it's charlatanism.

      Not quite what's happening here. It's obvious that most people here haven't read anything about what's going on with those studying 'cold fusion'. Most of those who do study it agree that whatever is happening, it isn't fusion. It retains the name for historical reasons.

      What IS happening doesn't seem to conform to what anyone understands about physics. People performing (as far as they can tell) the exact same expierment will get different results. Even the same person doing the same expierment multiple times gets different results.

      Often there is a significant amount of heat generated, often not. Somtimes there are neutrons, sometimes not. Most of those who are looking into it will freely say that it isn't fusion, and that most likely it isn't going to be too useful. The fact that there are some anomolous results happening, that aren't easily accounted for, indicates that it's at least worth studying.

      --
      There is a civil war coming in the United States. Remember which side has most of the guns
    13. Re:"Still gets the cold shoulder" by naasking · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It was the irreproducability of the alleged results that meant that there wasn't a phenomenon worthy of further investigation.

      Don't be silly. The results were reproducible, and many labs around the world announced success. But the results weren't reliably reproducible. So those who couldn't reporoduce them on the first or second try immediately dismissed the whole claim as a hoax.

  2. If real? by thinkninja · · Score: 4, Funny

    What do you think powers my flying car?

    --
    "The number of Unix installations has grown to ten, with more expected." (Unix Programmer's Manual, 2nd ed.; june 1972)
    1. Re:If real? by 91degrees · · Score: 3, Informative

      I thought just powers the time circuits.

    2. Re:If real? by Jason1729 · · Score: 5, Funny

      Imagination

    3. Re:If real? by falzer · · Score: 4, Funny

      > What do you think powers my flying car?

      Your own sense of self-satisfaction?

  3. What really happened by sonicattack · · Score: 5, Funny

    This is from the good ole' fortune file. It really has an answer to everything!

    - "Yo, Mike!"
    - "Yeah, Gabe?"
    - "We got a problem down on Earth. In Utah."
    - "I thought you fixed that last century!"
    - "No, no, not that. Someone's found a security problem in the physics program. They're getting energy out of nowhere."
    - "Blessit! Lemme look... Hey, it's there all right! OK, just a sec... There, that ought to patch it. Dist it out, wouldja?"

    -- Cold Fusion, 1989

    1. Re:What really happened by Hentai · · Score: 4, Funny

      Some bugs are just too hilariously funny to patch. All the better when they're more-or-less benign.

      Actually, to be honest, we DID patch it, about 60 million years ago, but our lead felt it was so hilarious, he put it back in as an easter-egg in the evolution module's garbage collection heap, where he figured noone would see it.

      We had to cancel memory deallocation when people showed up and started LIVING there, before the memory corruption spread too far. We managed to stabilize the region, of course, but not before they started thinking "G'day mate" was a proper way to talk.

      --
      -Hentai [in vita non pacem est]
  4. In other news... by nacturation · · Score: 4, Funny

    Scientists for the International Society of Alchemy held their 284th annual conference next door to the cold fusion conference. Still under debate is: did Gaythorpe the Great really turn lead into gold?

    --
    Want to improve your Karma? Instead of "Post Anonymously", try the "Post Humously" option.
    1. Re:In other news... by Izago909 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      At least someone took the time to prove alchemy wrong. It's a travesty for a scientist to say cold fusion is wrong because of his faith. Be a scientist and use that damn method you've heard about since childhood. Since when does peer review mean you only test things that fit into your view of the universe?

      Say what you want, alchemists were very smart for their time. They made that one thing that produced energy around 2000 years ago, and it has held the human mind captive ever since. What did they call that damn thing???
      Oh yea... the arc of the covenant (aka the worlds first battery). Put the top on and close the circuit.... bam... sparks and heat everywhere. Give me some medicine, a flashlight, and a way to go back 2000 years, and I'll be your messiah. Jebus ain't got nuttin on me.

    2. Re:In other news... by DrXym · · Score: 3, Interesting
      To be nit picky alchemy has been proven right since every element there is was formed in the heart of stars from other elements. And of course nuclear decay forms elements in the opposite direction.


      Obviously some crackpot mixing chemicals in his crucible isn't going to achieve the same (and may as well be pissing in the wind for all the good it would do him). But the underlying principle that you can make turn base metals or anything else into gold is true if you have a spare ten billion years and a star or two to do it with.

    3. Re:In other news... by sjames · · Score: 3, Funny

      Obviously some crackpot mixing chemicals in his crucible isn't going to achieve the same

      Oddly enough, if he mixes the right sort of earth with quicksilver and then applies fire 'to drive away the excess water', he will in fact find gold has been left behind. Of course he'll also get a terrible case of mercury poisoning.

  5. Cold fusion works! by Alomex · · Score: 4, Funny

    My neighbor had a cold fusion plant working like a charm, but he hasn't done much with it since the time he decided to connect to the electricity grid and give all his fellow Ohians free juice.

  6. Chain Reaction by Wylfing · · Score: 4, Interesting
    I always liked the hidden commentary in the movie Chain Reaction that someone really did discover cold fusion but it has been massively covered up by existing power interests (e.g., oil, coal). Surely nonesense, because this is a genie that would not go back in the bottle if it was true, but if cold fusion really was developed you can bet your ass we'd see Congress trying to pass some kind of doublespeak like "Protecting Home Access to Electricity Act" which makes it illegal to purchase non-coal generated electricity.

    --
    Our intelligent designer has never created an animal that we couldn't improve by strapping a bomb to it.
  7. Let us dream by ihatewinXP · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I know the popular thing to do is bash psuedo-sciences, and cold fusion because of its shaky introduction into popular thought quickly falls into this quagmire. But, let the human race dream before summarily dismissing the entire concept. I for one dont believe that all I have to look forward to as i grow older is a greater dependence on big oil, old money, and the like. Many groups (and by that I mean countries, companies, and current presidents) would love to convince us that there is no better way to live than under our present conditions. Not giving cold fusion and other radical departures from our current system an honest chance is not far from why were are stuck with Windows as the dominant platform in computers and oil as the backbone of our way of life.
    Im not saying that cold fusion itself is the future, but what we are presently using is certainly not the platform for all future generations. Hell, if Bush gets his way there might not even be enough sun left for solar energy so there has to be soemthing to fill the void.

    --
    ---- The real Slashdot is still here. You just have to browse at -1 to read the comments.
    1. Re:Let us dream by timeOday · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Personally, I am very skeptical that the perfect power source can ever be discovered.

      We already have plain old fission nuclear power, and the only think really wrong with it is that it works TOO well. Any relatively small package capable of releasing tremendous energy will be usable as a weapon, and that is exactly what's keeping nuclear power down.

      I realize there are environmental concerns too, but I think fear over the devastating potential of nuclear weapons is the root problem. Without that, pollution can be managed and contained.

  8. Stop cold fusion research... by ryen · · Score: 4, Funny

    by grabbing the www.iccf11.org domain before the 11th conference ;)

  9. So you could say the trail has grown cold? by saskboy · · Score: 4, Interesting

    "It has been 14 years"

    It been at least that long since we were promised Hydrogen fuel cells. Where's my fuel cell powered truck?

    I think consumers have been patient enough. Now it is time for companies to deliver something.

    --
    Saskboy's blog is good. 9 out of 10 dentists agree.
    1. Re:So you could say the trail has grown cold? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      Chill. We're working on it. This is a tenth of what we do, the site is under construction yet:
      Argonne National Laboratory Hydrogen Research
      Give us 0.1% of the money we spent on Iraq and we'll give you a hydrogen economy. The question is, do you really want a change, or will you ride your SUV into oblivion?

  10. Embarassed by Herkum01 · · Score: 4, Insightful
    This is a pride issue. The cold-fusion scientists are trying to get recognition from their detractors but they don't want to have anything to do with it. There are two reasons,
    1. They got burned the first time because the conclusion, it was a hoax. Nothing makes a scientist burn up more than to have been tricked by some psuedo science experiment.
    2. They really would hate to admit that they are wrong a second time. If they look and find that they are wrong and it was not a hoax it looks bad for them. Worse, they back it up and they find out that it was still considered a hoax, they fell like fools for a second time.

    No win situation for their critics really. They are going to have a tough time getting any support.

    1. Re:Embarassed by Professor+D · · Score: 3, Interesting
      Mod the parent down. 'Insightful?' Hardly. It's pretty clear that what Herkum01 knows about scientists is learned from watching too many bad B sci-fi/horror movies.

      It is true that physicists can be a prideful lot, but that tends be truer than not for smart people in general. But to reject what would be remarkable new science because they 'got burned' would be beyond pride and well into hubris.

      Lots of physicists tried the experiments back in 1989 because the claims were so remarkable, the recipe so simple and the researchers apparently credible enough that they had to at least give it a try. No new science was found. The cold fusion community failed to demonstrate unambiguously that their experimental results were real, trustworthy and replicable.

      FOURTEEN years later, and the cold fusion community STILL can't seem to agree on what their results are (neutrons? heat?) nevermind finding unambiguous signs of fusion and it's somehow the critic's fault for being prideful?

      Cold fusion researchers are never going to get any attention even negative) at all until they can demonstrate absolutely that there is something there!

  11. Cold Fusion? by mlush · · Score: 5, Funny

    Just a Fleisch in the Pons

  12. Here's a good article... by RichardtheSmith · · Score: 5, Informative

    This was always my favorite re-telling of the story... From David Goodstein at Caltech...

    http://www.its.caltech.edu/~dg/fusion_art.html

  13. Pons and Fleischmann by gribbly · · Score: 4, Interesting

    [disclaimer: from memory]

    The Pons and Fleischmann "cold fusion" experiment was thoroughly discredited shortly after the press conference (in which they grossly overstated their results). Apparently they were spooked by another researcher working in a similar area. They had signed an agreement with him not to release any results, but got paranoid that he was going to "claim the credit", and went ahead and announced - kind of an "announce and hope the results back you up" gamble. Well, the results *didn't* back them up, although it is interesting that many reputable teams who sought to replicate the results initially did so, but one by one retracted their findings when they discovered various flaws in their methodologies.

    I think the basic problem with the original Pons and Fleischmann experiment was that their calorimeter (which they used to get their "excess heat" measurements) was either faulty, or inappropriate for the experiement they were performing, and they didn't control for it.

    grib.

    --
    maybe
  14. Broadband access for $2/month by digitalhermit · · Score: 4, Funny

    Using the techniques published in the paper, I've been developing a method a quantum communication over great distances. The possibilities of these innovations to the original deuterium breakdown system are staggering; among these breakthroughs are advances in communication.

    We all know the typical objection to unlimited data compression. One needs only to Google for "counting argument" to realize that further compression of essentially random (e.g., binary) data is impossible. Searches for better compression algorithms at best have minimal returns (1-2% reductions are considered remarkable) or at worst ineffective or outright hoaxes.

    My new technology builds upon quantum duality -- influence at a distance. From first year quantum physics we know that observation of a particle can fix its state. Should a particle and anti-particle be released, we can *at a distance* fix the identity of the opposite particle merely by observation. What does this mean? Well, for one, by sending a stream of anti-particles to a remote observer then observing its opposite, we can then fix the identity of the remote particles *no matter how much distance*. This means we can instantaneously send as a stream of quantum particles. Schroedinger's and Heisenbergs body of work more than amply addresses the mechanics of this remote communication so I won't bore you with the technical details here.

    How does my method overcome the inherent randomness of quantum identity? It doesn't. I rely upon a remote lookup table. The receiver will only need to be sent a key of several bits. The remote receiver can then index the key to a table of longer values. For example, a key code of 001 would correspond to a larger sequence such as 00100111. By performing a lookup on this table the receiver can then expand the key to arbitrarily large bit sequences. How are the keys transferred? Our new technology -- Extended Schroedinger Particle (ESP) -- bases itself upon the aforementioned work by Mr. Schroedinger. Of course, trade secrets and corporate lawyers prevent me from revealing the exact method.

    Anyhow, please send me money so that I can continue my research. It has the potential to obviate and obsolete all current telecommunications networks.

    KLL

  15. Old Cold Fusion Stuff by Wyatt+Earp · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Stuff on the US Navy and Cold Fusion

    http://www.spawar.navy.mil/sti/publications/pubs /t r/1862/tr1862-vol1.pdf

    1. Re:Old Cold Fusion Stuff by blincoln · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Mod the parent post up. From the foreword:

      "We do not know if Cold Fusion will be the answer to future energy needs, but we do know the existence of Cold Fusion phenomenon through repeated observations by scientists throughout the world. It is time that this phenomenon be investigated so that we can reap whatever benefits accrue from additional scientific understanding."

      I am fairly skeptical of extraordinary claims, but if the US military has researchers writing things like this, I'm definitely willing to listen.

      --
      "...always new atoms but always doing the same dance, remembering what the dance was yesterday." -Richard Feynman
  16. and when we do achieve cold fusion... by forgotmypassword · · Score: 5, Funny

    we will use it to boil water

    (you have to know how a nukular power plant works to get this joke)

  17. Cold Shoulder? by Black+Parrot · · Score: 3, Funny


    What the heck kind of shoulder did you expect cold fusion to get?

    --
    Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
  18. Things to remember by cluge · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Some quick facts:

    Science by press release is almost never ever good science.

    Big physics has been getting more money than big chemistry. Many chemists jumped on the bandwagon in the hopes of getting research grants in their discipline.

    The nature of fusion makes the whole idea of "cold fussion" an oxymoron.

    A lot of ameteur's have been getting closer to fusion in their homes than the cold fusion people have ever gotten.

    See sig for final thoughts on this subject.

    --
    "Science is about ego as much as it is about discovery and truth " - I said it, so sue me.
  19. Re:Cold Fusion experiments for everyone... by FreeLinux · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Here is where the "magic" really is. You see, the "Cold Fusion Reactor" is plugged into a 220volt socket. If you unplug the 220volt power supply the light goes out.

    If he really had a reaction that was actually creating energy, you could unplug the power supply and the reaction would continue. Infact the reaction would continue to grow and a means of throttling the reaction would be necessary.

    What he really has here is a rather dangerous light bulb. It's none too efficient either.

  20. The primary beneficiary by Otter · · Score: 3, Funny
    It has been 14 years since two little-known electrochemists announced what sounded like the biggest physics breakthrough since Enrico Fermi produced a nuclear chain reaction on a squash court in Chicago.

    Coincidentally, it's been 14 years since my Introductory Physics professor blew off pretty much the entire second semester to try to replicate the Pons & Fleischman findings. It worked out well -- he got a cover article in Nature and I got an A+ after he reused all the previous years' exams verbatim.

    (You'd think everyone else would have gotten old exams from their friends, but I, though hardly an Alpha Beta, was apparently one of the few students who _had_ friends. For that matter, I could never understand how people could be given a word problem with the force and mass, told to find the acceleration, and given the relevant equations, couldn't locate f=ma and plug the values in.)

    The same guy, when he talked about the Tacoma Narrows Bridge collapse pronounced it "Tacomanaros". It was years before I learned that it wasn't in Uruguay or Bolivia...

  21. Cold Fusion"and Neural Networks: Similar Fates by reporter · · Score: 3, Interesting
    What is happening to the research in the cold fusion also happened to the research in neural newtorks. Please read the following.

    1. " Perceptrons: An Associative Learning Network".
    2. "Single and Multi-Layer Perceptrons"
    3. Perceptron.

    To briefly summarize the tale of woe, Frank Rosenblatt invented the perceptron in 1957. It had one layer of artificial neurons and sparked an entire field of research in artificial learning. In 1969, Marvin Minsky at MIT wrote a book called "Perceptrons: An Introduction to Computational Geometry"; in it, he mathematically proved that the perceptron could not solve certain classes of problems. This book essentially decimated funding for neural-network research for about 15 years.

    In 1982, John Hopfield at Caltech revived the field with the invention of the Hopfield Networks. Further, several researchers invented backpropagation as a way to train neural networks with 2 or more layers or artificial neurons and overcame the limitations that Minsky indicated. Now, the field of neural networks has plenty of money to do research.

    So, there is a possibility that research into cold fusion will grow hot again.

    ... from the desk of the reporter

  22. Media, Culture vs Science by smoondog · · Score: 4, Interesting

    There are two things that could be at work here. First, scientists may hate everything to do with cold fusion and not want to see it go anywhere. And/Or, Two, the media may be fueling the perception that scientists don't want anything to do with it.

    I spoke with a nobel laureate physicist about cold fusion. I found that while he didn't think there was much to cold fusion (it isn't his primary area of research, but if he can't comment on it, who can?), I didn't get the feeling he held the anomosity usually attributed to the scientific community at large. (I frankly don't either) I think that the media plays a significant role in blackening the field. Kind of like the kid on the playground who eggs on fights, but never participates in them.

    Scientists believe in publication, in particular good ones. If cold fusion-ites publish interesting/good research on the subject, they will be recognized. As pointed out in the above link, there was a seemingly cold fusion-like experiment that was published in science quite recently (it isn't quite cold fusion, because the events themselves are hot and very small).

    Most scientists deal with skeptical peers regularly, this isn't just a property of the cold fusion community. That said, just because there is a conference on it doesn't make it real or even interesting. I personally find it interesting, but I wouldn't bet on seeing commercial applications of this in our lifetimes.

    -Sean

  23. More SCO news..... by MADCOWbeserk · · Score: 4, Funny

    SCO has announced they sueing Stanley Pons and Martin Fleischmann.. "SCO owns all rights to bullshit from the state of UTAH. Cold fusion therefore meets our criteria for deritive works." Chris Sontag, VP of SCO..

  24. The difference between scientists and engineers by EmbeddedJanitor · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Scientist sees a wee spark in a test tube and starts ranting about free energy etc. Engineer thinks about real-world problems that need to be solved to scale the technology into real world applications.

    Well I remember the time when high temperature superconductivity was announced (little pill of material magnetically levitated in a cooled environment). Scientists started spouting on about lossless power lines using superconductors. Engineers skeptically thought that the energy required for the refridgeration was way more than the losses with conventional wiring. High temperature superconductors have very few realworld applications beyond generating Nobel prizes.

    --
    Engineering is the art of compromise.
    1. Re:The difference between scientists and engineers by SEE · · Score: 3, Insightful

      First, although general lines are not, there are a few refitted power plants that use "high" temp superconductors for short (dozens of meter long), very high power lines. The losses to resistance and the cooling that would be required by the heat generated by the resistance are high enough in these short fat lines between generation and the grid that SC wires with liquid nitrogen coooling is a net gain on efficiency.

      Second, real point was that there was no longer a theoretical barrier to there being 50 deg. C superconductors. If and when those are discovered, they'll radically change things, even if they turn out to be a bastard to work with mechanically.

  25. Crackpot Index... by ewithrow · · Score: 3, Informative

    THE CRACKPOT INDEX by John Baez A simple method for rating potentially revolutionary contributions to physics. -5 point starting credit. 1 point for every statement that is widely agreed on to be false. 2 points for every statement that is clearly vacuous. 3 points for every statement that is logically inconsistent. 5 points for each such statement that is adhered to despite careful correction. 5 points for using a thought experiment that contradicts the results of a widely accepted real experiment. 5 points for each word in all capital letters (except for those with defective keyboards). 5 points for each mention of "Einstien", "Hawkins" or "Feynmann". 10 points for each claim that quantum mechanics is fundamentally misguided (without good evidence). 10 points for pointing out that you have gone to school, as if this were evidence of sanity. 10 points for beginning the description of your theory by saying how long you have been working on it. 10 points for mailing your theory to someone you don't know personally and asking them not to tell anyone else about it, for fear that your ideas will be stolen. 10 points for offering prize money to anyone who proves and/or finds any flaws in your theory. 10 points for each statement along the lines of "I'm not good at math, but my theory is conceptually right, so all I need is for someone to express it in terms of equations". 10 points for arguing that a current well-established theory is "only a theory", as if this were somehow a point against it. 10 points for arguing that while a current well-established theory predicts phenomena correctly, it doesn't explain "why" they occur, or fails to provide a "mechanism". 10 points for each favorable comparison of yourself to Einstein, or claim that special or general relativity are fundamentally misguided (without good evidence). 10 points for claiming that your work is on the cutting edge of a "paradigm shift". 20 points for suggesting that you deserve a Nobel prize. 20 points for each favorable comparison of yourself to Newton or claim that classical mechanics is fundamentally misguided (without good evidence). 20 points for every use of science fiction works or myths as if they were fact. 20 points for defending yourself by bringing up (real or imagined) ridicule accorded to your past theories. 20 points for each use of the phrase "hidebound reactionary". 20 points for each use of the phrase "self-appointed defender of the orthodoxy". 30 points for suggesting that a famous figure secretly disbelieved in a theory which he or she publicly supported. (E.g., that Feynman was a closet opponent of special relativity, as deduced by reading between the lines in his freshman physics textbooks.) 30 points for suggesting that Einstein, in his later years, was groping his way towards the ideas you now advocate. 30 points for claiming that your theories were developed by an extraterrestrial civilization (without good evidence). 40 points for comparing those who argue against your ideas to Nazis, stormtroopers, or brownshirts. 40 points for claiming that the "scientific establishment" is engaged in a "conspiracy" to prevent your work from gaining its well-deserved fame, or suchlike. 40 points for comparing yourself to Galileo, suggesting that a modern-day Inquisition is hard at work on your case, and so on. 40 points for claiming that when your theory is finally appreciated, present-day science will be seen for the sham it truly is. (30 more points for fantasizing about show trials in which scientists who mocked your theories will be forced to recant.) 50 points for claiming you have a revolutionary theory but giving no concrete testable predictions. Appendage: 100 points for anything involving cold fusion, tabletop fusion, or super fusion.

    1. Re:Crackpot Index... by Bearpaw · · Score: 4, Funny

      It would be a lot simpler to rate an idea by how it's formatted. You, know, like if it's presented all in one big paragraph.

  26. Old Compuserve Science & Math forum by ralphh · · Score: 5, Interesting
    Cold Fusion was thoroughly beaten up in the old Compuserve Science & Math forum at the time.

    Seems there were a lot of complex things interacting, electrical, chemical, thermal and *mechanical*. The palladium electode absorbing hydrogen gets visibly larger as it pulls the ions in - there was speculation that a lot of energy was being stored this way via a spring-loading effect, but nobody on the forum knew or cared to calculate how much. Spontaneous collapse of many microscopic internal structures in the electrode could account for episodes of heat release IF enough energy is stored this way.

    The CFers also claimed elevated radiation near the experiments once. It turned out they were measuring radon levels in the basement where the experiment was being conducted.

    Wish I'd saved my Compuserve logs of this stuff, but I couldn't afford the floppies, $5 each at the time. :-)

    Anyway, once it became apparent the experiments had many possible flaws and were failing to produce any clear positive results, researchers who valued their career would have been crazy to waste the time.

    Anybody here participate in the Science & Math forum back then? I've always wondered what happened to the moderator, Emory Kimbrough.

    --
    "A worthy cause has never been harmed by the truth" - Gandhi
  27. Two independent issues. by xplenumx · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Simply because the cold fusion hypothesis is not dead does not make Dr. Pons and Dr. Fleischmann any more correct in their findings. The scientists weren't ostracized because they claimed to have experimental evidence to support cold fusion - had the evidence proved true, the world would have been ecstatic. The problem was in how the scientists presented their results.

    Anyone who presents their data to the popular press prior to being peer reviewed should be heavily criticized. Even the most senior and brightest scientist make mistakes, become too enthusiastic, or may fail to run the proper controls. Furthermore, given that their data changed over time (from one Watt in, four out to one Watt in, ten out) with no reasoning, backing or explanation, one has to question the accuracy of their data.

    Great scientists sometimes make big mistakes, such as with Dr. Atassi and his experiment with pepzymes. Unlike the cold fusion scientists, Dr. Atassi went through the peer review process and later didn't play the ego game. Personally, I think Dr. Pons and Dr. Fleischmann were greatly mislead by their enthusiasm (I wouldn't go nearly so far as to call them frauds). Just as the mistakes of these two scientists don't invalidate the field of cold fusion, the successes of the field don't make their claims any more accurate.

  28. Carl Sagan: "The Burden of Skepticism" by David+Hume · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I know the popular thing to do is bash psuedo-sciences, and cold fusion because of its shaky introduction into popular thought quickly falls into this quagmire. But, let the human race dream before summarily dismissing the entire concept.


    Carl Sagan addressed this issue in his essay, "The Burden of Skepticism." (See also lecture version).

    Sagan explained:

    It seems to me what is called for is an exquisite balance between two conflicting needs: the most skeptical scrutiny of all hypotheses that are served up to us and at the same time a great openness to new ideas. Obviously those two modes of thought are in some tension. But if you are able to exercise only one of these modes, whichever one it is, you're in deep trouble.

    If you are only skeptical, then no new ideas make it through to you. You never learn anything new. You become a crotchety old person convinced that nonsense is ruling the world. (There is, of course, much data to support you.) But every now and then, maybe once in a hundred cases, a new idea turns out to be on the mark, valid and wonderful. If you are too much in the habit of being skeptical about everything, you are going to miss or resent it, and either way you will be standing in the way of understanding and progress.

    On the other hand, if you are open to the point of gullibility and have not an ounce of skeptical sense in you, then you cannot distinguish the useful as from the worthless ones. If all ideas have equal validity then you are lost, because then, it seems to me, no ideas have any validity at all.


  29. My analysis by nuntius · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I'm an electrical engineer; a chemist could give a better explanation of what's happening.

    Source of reactor info:
    http://jlnlabs.imars.com/cfr/html/cfrtiny2. htm

    Experimental setup:
    Place tungsten welding rods in a corrosive solution of NaHCO3. Use a AC/DC rectifier to convert wall current to a high DC potential across the rods. Measure the input energy using a power meter. Calculate the output energy by measuring the evaporated water and increase in heat (like you would with a cheapo calorimeter). Compare.

    Test and analysis:
    Run the system for approximately 3 minutes. Note that, as the rods corrode, their conductance goes down, bringing down the Wattage as well.

    This is easily predicted. Resistance (R) is roughly proportional to the rod corrosion. Current (I) equals the applied voltage (V) divided by the resistance; I=V/R. Power (P) is P=I^2*R; for our system, P=(V/R)^2*R=V^2/R. Therefore, as R goes up, the input power goes down. This agrees with the experiment.

    The "researcher" then makes several obvious mistakes in calculating the output energy. First, he ignores the effect of the NaHCO3, and pretends the rods were dipped in pure water. Second, he forgets to subtract the 6mL of evaporated water from the 150mL of water that rose in temperature. He also ignores the chemical effect of eating away at the tungsten rods.

    His experiment does show more energy output than input, and I believe his numbers are roughly accurate (barring the mistakes outlined above).

    My analysis:
    This experiment shows that exothermic chemical reactions exist. Other famous examples of exothermic chemical reactions which corrode metal are Energizer and Duracell batteries. Burning a match is also characteristically similar.

    His experiment has nothing to do with nuclear reactions. Just chemical ones.

  30. Cold fusion and muon catalysis by rjh · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Not true--cold fusion is possible, just not like Pons and Fleischmann described. (Nothing like it, in fact.) The quantum mechanical description of the energy states of a hydrogen atom are identical whether you use electrons or muons; use either, the hydrogen atom doesn't care. (Now, when you ask the very important question "yeah, genius, now how do you create quintillions of muon-replaced hydrogen atoms?", I'll resort to the classic physicist's dodge: "that's an engineering issue; go ask an engineer.")

    QMech says that if you've got hydrogens with muon shells instead of electron shells, you'll see spontaneous fusion reactions at very low temperatures. The reasons why are hard to explain without going into a lot of math, but it's quite possible according to the Standard Model.

    Of course, there's a world of difference between possible and feasible. But physicists are only concerned with the possible. Feasible is for engineers. :)

  31. Re:Simple rule of thumb: by aagha · · Score: 4, Informative

    I've already mentioned this book in response to the parent, but another mention might not hurt.

    The Scientist, the Madman, the Thief and Their Lightbulb: The Biggest Scandal in the History of Science

    The book is a good, fun read. Even if you don't believe everything in the book, there's great coverage of the science behind "cold fusion" (and other technologies). If you are sceptical and don't have "any cause to reconsider [your] position", read the book--You won't be dissapointed.

    Full Disclosure: I have absolutely no association with the book, author, publisher, etc... -- Just a great book which I finished reading a month ago and have reccomended to a ton of my friends, all who have enjoyed it very much and made them ask questions they hadn't thought about asking before.

  32. Re:A Logical Explanation by sigwinch · · Score: 4, Interesting
    Keeping in mind that I am not a physicist, what about the helium-4 traces?
    The atmosphere is about 5 ppm He-4, and helium is notoriously good at leaking through even solid matter. (Notoriously good as in certain vacuum tubes have to be routinely replaced because atmospheric helium diffuses through the glass and ruins them.)
    --

    --
    Kuro5hin.org: where the good times never end. ;-)

  33. This is the way it's always been... by DesScorp · · Score: 4, Insightful

    " It's a travesty for a scientist to say cold fusion is wrong because of his faith... Since when does peer review mean you only test things that fit into your view of the universe? "

    It's always been this way. Theres a big difference between the scientific method, and Science, Inc. And while you're at it, realize that Science Inc is as much a religion as any other faiths. It has its orthodoxies just like anything else. The Atkins Diet has always had its detractors. It took them, what, over two decades to admit that you can lose weight with it? And even now some doctors refuse to acknowledge that it can work. It violated the dogma of low fat/high carbs. Yes, ladies and gentlemen, science has its dogmas. Stephen Hawking is considered a genius now, but back when he was starting his career, the Steady State theory was the reigning dogma of physics. Some scientists simply refused to acknowledge any other possibilities.

    Revolutionary ideas in science are often met with skepticism at first.

    --
    Life is hard, and the world is cruel
  34. Muon fusion catalysis by rjh · · Score: 4, Informative

    Muon-catalyzed fusion is real and comes within a factor of 15 of being commercially viable--muon-catalyzed reactions became self-sustaining in a theoretical sense in the 1980s (generating more energy out than was put in), but there's a long way between theoretical and practical self-sufficiency.

    They hit the theoretical; they're within a factor of 15 of practical. This makes muon-catalyzed fusion the closest to viability of any fusion method so far. On the other hand, people have been throwing themselves at it for 20 years now trying to close that factor-of-15 gap and haven't gotten anywhere. Nowadays it's thought that there are some physical limitations on muon fusion which will prevent it from closing that factor-of-15 gap, and muon catalysis is no longer considered to be the most promising light on the horizon.

    Muons are not 300,000 times the mass of an electron; they're 207 times the mass of an electron (or appreciably close to the mass of a proton).

  35. Re:electric cars by Timmeh · · Score: 3, Interesting

    No, but hydrogen is has decent energy density, and without worries of efficient use of energy you could electrolyze water 'til the cows come home. As I recall, hydrogen (either in pressurized tanks or in powdered sodium borohydride form) has a decent energy density, and if not, I'm sure this would give someone sufficient reason to develop more economical H containment.

  36. Re:Cold fusion it's impossible by LauraW · · Score: 3, Informative
    >So here comes the Second Law of Thermodynamics: in real conditions, any process will generate less energy than it takes.

    Sort of. That version of the 2nd law is true in classical thermodynamics. But when you throw relativity and nuclear reactions into the mix, it breaks down. Instead, you have talk about both mass and energy, which are equivalent in the good old ratio E=mc^2. This is why atomic fission (nuclear reactors and fission bombs) and "hot" fusion (hydrogen bombs) work. A small fraction of the mass is converted into energy. The classical versions of the 1st and 2nd laws of thermodynamics are being violated, but if you take the equivalence of mass and energy into account then it all works again. (It's been ages since I studied this stuff, but I think I have that basically right.)

  37. There IS something there... by Ezmate · · Score: 5, Interesting

    While I attended Texas A&M, I spent 2 (93-94) years as a personal assistant (gofer, typist, etc) to James Bockris (Distinguished Professor of Electro-Chemestry - the first scientist to "confirm" Pons & Fleischmann). As such, I had full access to his corespondance (I had to open it all, sort it by subject, & reply to some of the simplier inquiries) & was able to learn quite a bit.

    Although it's now been 10 years since I've done any serious research on the subject (every now & then I read the symposium notes), I can give you my opinions of the whole Cold Fusion uproar:

    -There is something strange & new going on in these experiments
    -This something strange & new has been very difficult to reproduce consistently (much of the research focuses on certain types of atomic level imperfections in the cathodes)
    -Pons & Fleischmann screwed the pooch by announcing their results before they could reproduce them. This basically had the effect of turning 95% of the scientific community against them. This has led to many people assuming the entire field of study as bogus.
    -Many scientist around the world have reported "good results" - ranging from melted cathodes (excess heat) to extra helium (fusion of hydrogen atoms?).


    My guess is that there is some new type of reaction occuring in these experiments. It may or may not be able to produce excess heat. Regardless, I'd bet in 10-20 years, a paper will be published that will explain it all.


    As a side note, Dr. Bockris was a very "interesting" fellow to work with - he was the epitomy of the absent minded professor; one day he came in to work with his button down dress shirt on INSIDE OUT (think about how much effort it would take you to button a dress shirt in such a fashion); he frequently would put a MARKER in his front pocket without the cap on - leading to a HUGE ink stain on many of his dress shirts. And yes, I know he's done some weird stuff in his life (alchemy, anyone?! - http://www.spectrometer.org/path/free.html).

  38. Duke by zurmikopa · · Score: 5, Funny

    Why do I get the feeling that this fusion project has the codename "Duke Nukem Forever"

  39. What are you talking about? by mshiltonj · · Score: 4, Funny

    Nobody uses Cold Fusion anymore, now that Macromedia bought it. Everyone has switched to PHP.

  40. the engineers need the scientists by QEDog · · Score: 3, Interesting

    It is unfair to critize the scientist saying that what they do doesn't have applications. Some of it does, some of it doesn't, but they ARE discovering new phenomena after all. You talk about High Tc Super Conductors, but forget about the transistor and many other. It is hard to predict what will be the big next thing. Scientist try to milk phenomenas as much as they can, sometimes with high hopes, and sometimes their expectations were not realistic. This happens in engineering too. The good thing about science that even if there isn't an immediate application, maybe in the far future there will be. And, you can always do science just because understanding the universe can't be a bad thing.

    --
    "There is no teacher but the enemy."-Mazer Rackham
  41. Not the University research, but independant. by Frobnicator · · Score: 4, Informative
    The headline is misleading, saying they were "of the University of Utah". It was originally independant research being done on the Campus, not work for the University. Only after the announcement did the University adopt it in exchange for further resources.

    Stanly Pons and Martin Fleischmann were both separately employeed by the University, but the research was not sponsored by the school. They were using some of the school's facilities with permission, basically because of the high cost of the equipment.

    See http://www.chem.utah.edu/depthistory/ChemDept_Hist ory.pdf for some of this:

    "Stan Pons did his doctoral dissertation research at Southampton University, where he developed a scientific collaboration with Professor Martin Fleischmann. In the 1980's Martin was a frequent visitor to Utah and had been given a courtesy visiting professorship at the University of Utah. On March 23, 1989, a press conference was convened at the University of Utah ... to announce the discovery by Stan and Martin of cold fusion. The euphoria and disillusionment that followed that event have been told in many subsequent newspaper articles and books. A recent 365 page book [Charles G. Beaudette, Excess Heat: Why Cold Fusion Research Prevailed, Oak Grove Press, South Bristol, Maine, 2000] does a balanced job of recounting the story." (emphasis added)
    Because the original press conference was conveniend at the University, and because both professors were affiliated with the U of U, and that further research was taken up by the University at the time of the press conference, many journalists jumped to the conclusion that it was the University's project.

    Other than the /. error, the article iteself is rather interesting, including this answer from a professor: "The question I get more than any other is, 'Are you still doing this?', " says Prof. Jones. "The answer is yes, and what we are seeing is very difficult to explain outside of cold fusion. The repeatability of these experiments now approaches 80 percent." [Insert comparison to Microsoft here.]

    frob

    --
    //TODO: Think of witty sig statement
  42. Re:Horsepoo. by xplenumx · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Sir, as an microbiologist who has published and peer-reviewed papers, both written and received grants, and have given talks at several scientific meetings, I can say that you don't have the faintest clue as to what you're talking about.

    Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Papers, or in the case of the cold fusion scientists - press conferences, that go against conventional thought must provide additional evidence, additional controls, and extremely meticulous record keeping. Simply because you are a fan of cold fusion, does not make Dr. Pons' and Dr. Fleischmann's experiments quality experiments. Cold fusion could be shown to be a reality tomorrow, and Dr. Pons' and Dr. Fleischmann's experiments still wouldn't be considered good science (nor would they win the Nobel prize). Likewise, just because some individuals made a mistake regarding cold fusion, doesn't mean that the field should be disregarded entirely.

    You'll find that scientists in general are very open minded about accepting unconventional ideas, provided there is strong evidence to support those ideas. In fact, I know that both my peers and I would absolutely love to have papers which show some well accepted dogma to be incorrect. Similarly, you'll also find that after reading story after story of "Scientist finds amazing cure for cancer!!", scientists tend to give the mass media very little, if any, attention regarding scientific issues. We know the media doesn't know the first thing about science (though we'd like them to, and we work hard to educate them), and that our results are unfortunately often grossly over exaggerated and only half the story told (sometimes in our favor, sometimes painting us as unethical, evil beings).

    You're absolutely correct - there are many stories where (now) heroes like Galileo, Tesla and Darwin who were outcast and discredited for their revolutionary ideas. However, simply being shunned and discredited for one's ideas doesn't make them a hero - Water memory, Vitamin O, polywater, and (dare I say) timecube. Should the people who came up with these ideas be regarded as heroes? For every hero, there are plenty of individuals who were forgotten, disregarded and even labeled as frauds - and rightfully so.

    Scientists who disregard cold fusion do so, not because of Dr. Pons and Dr. Fleischmann, but for other reasons all together. As far as I can tell, the only people that are angry with the two scientists are those working in the field of cold fusion, who believe that it may be possible, and now have to work under a legacy of some poor experimental work. If cold fusion is shown to be true, it'll be despite of Dr. Pons and Dr. Fleischmann's work, not because of it.

  43. Cold Fusion Work at Bell Labs Back Then by billstewart · · Score: 4, Funny
    I was working at Bell Labs back when the Cold Fusion hype happened, though not in one of the chemistry departments. About two days after the initial announcement hit the press, there was an Official Pronouncement that nobody was allowed to withdraw palladium from the company stockroom without their director's approval... A bit later, a researcher at some university was killed in a hydrogen explosion, and any cold fusion research inside the Labs became much more strictly controlled as a response to it - messing with electrolysis is too easy a way to get into chemical accidents.

    One of my jobs was sysadmin for a departmental computer lab that was in a big glass-fishbowl room (remember when computers were big?) I was heading off for a week to see a customer on another project, but I took a few minutes to print out a line-printer banner about "Cold Fusion Research Laboratory" and cobble together some random parts and wires and 5-gallon jars of liquid and set them up in the window before I left. They were gone by the time I got back :-)

    --

    Bill Stewart
    New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks