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Hybrid/Electric Vehicles: Should I Buy?
nissin writes "I'm ready to buy my first vehicle, and would like to hear your experiences with either hybrid or electric vehicles. Are they a good alternative to conventional vehicles, or just a geek toy? Do they perform well in the city? How about on long road trips? I am also interested in hearing about other alternative, yet practical, forms of transportation that I may have missed."
Hybrids get great mileage, and they work. What's not to like? Buy a Prius, or a hybrid Civic. Or, wait a couple years, because Toyota is supposedly going to sell everything in a hybrid model by 2005.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
What if you made a full internal combustion car with a lightweight aluminum chasis, a variable speed transmission, low resistance tires and sleek aerodynamics?
This has pretty much been done. Aside from the full CVT, I believe this kind of car is called one of "Saturn S Series", "Honda Civic", "Toyota Corrola", etc. These cars pretty much all have a spaceframe chassis, small 4-cylinder engine, smaller tires, etc, and they represent just about the best mass-produced conventional cars can do without becoming a "Toyota Echo" or "Geo Metro".
I personally have no problems with the idea of a hybrid car. However, all we need, now, is economies of scale bringing down price. The relative simplicity of a hybrid car (electric + smaller gas engine) should allow up-front costs and maintenance costs to go even lower than current cars (eventually, that is).
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I've got a 2003 Prius, and I wish I had waited a year. Still, the mileage and range kicks ass. The civic is pretty sweet to, though. Especially if you are into modding your car. All the aesthetic and suspension bits from the regular civics fit the hybrid (just no drivetrain parts). The prius has very little aftermarket support.
Where's my lobbyist? Right here.
Mod the above comment up.. TDI Volkswagons are great. Anyone who thinks they are noisy or slow should go drive one and drop their 1980's preconceptions. Diesel is available nearly everywhere (you just have to know where to look) and pollutes far less (not just what comes out your tailpipe, but the refining process is simpler as well). TDI VW's also only require oil changes every 10,000 miles, saving you time and money there as well.
http://www.tdiclub.com/
Hybrid electrics are a joke, a stopgap technology until something better comes along. Don't bother.
Of course SUV drivers don't have a higher survival rate than other cars, they are just more likely to kill others, and not a single bit more likely to survive themselves.
And the idea that an Economy car is "undersized" is absolutly silly. If anything they are apropriatlysized for the general use case. Thats transporting 1 or 2 people (which is about what you see in 95% of cars on the road at any given time... SUV or otherwise).
Frankly in the long run its cheaper and safer for EVERYONE to drive an economy car, and rent a larger vehicle when you NEED one. You know that MAYBE once a year or every two years that you might move, or maybe that weekend or two you actually go camping.
Biut whatever, once oil price hit where they really should be, I imagine the much touted "Market forces" will take care of the SUVs so im not too worried. And I will still be tooling around in the most practical vehicle I have ever owned...
my motorcycle... 40 MPG in the city, 50 on the highway, small enough to make room and I NEVER have to look for parking.
Not to mention it can fit between traffic in a jam, out accelerate ANY 4 wheeler (taking off or comming to a stop), and lets face it... get the biggest fucking SUV penis extention you want...
When it comes right down to it... everyones watching ME ride down the street, you in your SUV are just another boring fish in the sea of SUVs and other cagers... and with all that... an empty tank still only costs me $5 to fill.
-Steve
"I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
They are still CRAP (TM). They will continue to be crap until they are 100% fuel cell driven or batery driven. If your main engine is electric having breaking recouperation makes sense. If it is hybrid it only adds weight, complexity and increases maintenance costs and it cannot recoup more then around 20% of the used energy ().
For example the new Toyota Prius delivers lower MPG then the Daihatsu Sirion which is made by the same Toyota group (51 best vs 57 best). It is also slower and more sluggish (14 s to 62 compared to under 9.0). It also has higher emissions (almost twice worse on all counts). All of it while carrying the same amount of passengers and having only 30 liters more luggage space. It has a huge maintenance bill as the battery cells last only around 40-50 thousand miles and it has high ongoing maintenance as well. It is also a bomb. There are very few things that are more suicidal then sitting on a shorting battery in an accident with a fuel tank nearby.
Also I will not even compare it to a modern diesel. The new Audi A2 TDI which once again carries the same number of people and has the same luggage space (320 or so liters) can deliver 80mpg with even less emissions then the Sirion. That is VW which I hate. Still it is the diesel king, but Peugeot, Mitsubishi and several others are not that far behind with figures in the 50-60 MPG with corresponding emissions for a small family car. They also beat the crap out of the Prius on maintenance, acceleration and overall driving experience.
Hybrids are not the answer. They help develop technology which is useful for fuel cell or fully electric vehicles, but they are definitely not the answer. So I think they should be sponsored even further so that technology can be developed. But I will not buy one. I will chose something less polluting.
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Do the math: let's say you drive 12k miles a year, this is 285 gallons of gas. So you pay around $500 a year for gas. A regular sedan owner with 21 mpg would pay twice as much, ie $500 a year more. In 10 years he will pay $5k more. Person who bought hybrid already paid ~$4k more when he bought the car, and will pay at least ~$1k more for more expensive service.
So from the point of view of money, hybrids do not worth it - and would be considerably worse if automakers were not forced to sell them (some percentage of total cars sold should be hybrid or electric in U.S.).
I think hybrids are great for environment and a cool techno gadget, but hopes of saving on gas - forget about it. Not in the U.S. where gas is still very cheap (compare with Europe).
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Whatever about the mileage improvements of a gasoline-electric vehicle, many posters have already pointed out that current clean-burning modern diesel cars already get 50-70 mpg. All the major manufacturers (yes even the American ones, though of course the Europeans are ahead in diesel technology) are bringing out diesel-electric hybrids over the next few years. This innovation should add around 50% to the mileage of typical diesel cars. Within 10 years we will see 100mpg diesel-electric hybrids.
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Let's see...
1999..........$0.899
2003..........$1.799
Yeah, it can't possibly double by 2007. Why, we'd have to get involved in a war in the Middle East and have accidents at offshore oil rigs and have problems with the Alaskan Pipe line and have an energy company-friendly administration that won't release oil reserves...
R: That voice. Where have I heard that voice before? B: In about 365 other episodes. But I don't know who it is either.
Second, while I agree that going out of your way isn't worth it, what I, and most people I know, do is that they will generally try to remember to fill up their tank when they happen to be near a station they know to be cheaper.
For me at least, I don't care about 2 or 3 cents, but often there will be $.10 or even $.20 differences. That's more like $1.50 per fillup, and if you fill up your tank a couple times a month, it can add up to about $35 or $40 per year. Not a lot of money, but not something to just throw away for no reason.
"The question of whether a computer can think is no more interesting than that of whether a submarine can swim" -EWD
Yes, Civic Hybrids are fairly expensive vehicles for what you get. It's a matter of weighing the appropriate price-performance ratio.
It should be interesting to note that while Honda sells these for about 20,000$, Honda manufactures them at 30,000$ (according to a salesperson at Herson's Honda in Rockville, MD).
So while it's good that we're supporting hybrid technology and trying to encourage auto manufacturers, they may not move forward as quickly as we'd like. Perhaps with increased popularity, they'll produce a higher volume and refine the manufacturing process? Who knows.
Unfortunately, according to the same salesperson, Honda is interested in selling these vehicles so they can reduce the average vehicle emmissions of all cars they sell. This allows them to legally sell more SUVs and other gas guzzlers (hence they are willing to make a 10,000$ write-off on every Civic Hybrid). Nothing for free it seems. What a lousy trade-off.
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I've had my Civic Hybrid for a week now. I'm getting about 40 mpg with a lot of city and heavy traffic driving (Newark, NJ). It's slowly but steadily going up, though. Earlier this week it was 38 or so.
The engine shut-off isn't quite what it's cracked up to be. Yeah, when you stop at a light or in traffic the engine shuts off. But if you creep forward a bit the engine won't shut off the next time you stop. You have to get up to a certain speed or go a certain distance/time (not sure yet what the rules actually are) or next time you stop the engine stays on. And it doesn't even recharge the battery at that time. It's very frustrating because I sit in a lot of stop & go traffic and you can't just stay put when all the cars in front of you are rolling. You let off the brake and the engine kicks back on, and the only way to ensure it turns off next time is to let a big gap form between you and the car in front of you then gun it and step on the brake. Not a thing you want to be doing in heavy traffic.
I'm not yet 100% convinced a hybrid was the best choice. The gas mileage is great and the ultra low emissions is nice, but I passed up on a lot of frills to get them. (You can get the top model Civic practically maxed out for less than the hybrid.. you give up a sun roof, fog lights, fold-down rear seats, and more). But for all intents and purposes, even the hybrid is just a regular car. It's spunky enough. I've had no trouble getting up to speed on the highway or keeping up the speed. Even with such a "weak" engine it still goes pretty fast. And besides, it's one of the only cars that gives you that 'holier than thou' feeling. So maybe I'm 80% convinced. Ask me again in a couple of weeks.
Anything less than perfection is failure.
The downside is the insane distances it can go while doing long distance driving. Try going 500 miles between fillups (better than 7 hours) without stoping to empty YOUR tank.
I don't know what people are complaining about pickup... I've not had any problems... but then I am not a leadfoot to start with and tend to keep it under 70 MPH anyway
Wierdest thing to happen to me in a Prius... Going over the Grapevine N of LA... going up at 70 MPH engine whining away... get to the top of the hill and start going down - and the engine cuts off. Complete silence. Very spooky going 70 with the engine off
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I think you missed a key point - he's not talking about mileage, he's talking about a REALTIME miles-per-gallon display. That is the instantaneous mpg your vehicle is traveling at a moment in time. I have a 2000 Jetta with every option, and unless he added it afterwards, your brother does NOT have this option. :)
Maybe you have every option for the model you seleced, but I can assure you that the top-end (US models, at least) VW Jettas have had both instantaneous and average MPG displays since 1998 at least (my 1998 Jetta had it, as did my 2000, and so does my new 2003 Jetta GLX).
I can't recall the acronyms for the older sub-models, but in the case of 2003 Jettas, you can't get the "dash computer" (which includes the MPG displays among other cool features, such as miles remaining in tank, trip time, etc.) unless you get the GLX model, which really has no options (I think you can pay for 17" rims vs. the standard 16", but that's not really an option, more of a dealer-provided aftermarket thing, I believe). You get V6, leather, sunroof, power everything with memory, monsoon stereo, automatic climate control, trip-tronic automatic transmission, alloy rims, etc. with the GLX whether you like it or not, and several of those features are unavailable on lower-end Jettas.
To bring this a little bit back OT, I'm surprised that the mileage isn't better than the 30-50 the opsted noted. I get 29-31MPG avg in the city with my V6 Jetta (and I am an acelleration-addict), and almost 40MPG on highway trips. I thought the hybrids were much better.
everything in moderation
The real problem is akin to the problem of bike helmets. True story. When more people started wearing bike helmets injuries went up, not down. Why? Because they gave a false sense of invulnerability and safety. So people began driving more recklessly. It wasn't the bike helmets were inherently more dangerous. (Although recent studied have commented on neck twist injuries due to helmets) It was how people started driving their bikes.
Same with SUVs. The problem isn't the inherent safety of the SUV for those who drive halfway intelligently. It is the fact that people don't drive well. They think 4WD somehow makes them invulnerable in snow. Around here we have a lot of California students. First snow I like to sit at a particularly sharp turn and watch Californians in their SUVs go off the road because they are too dumb to drive slow on the icy snow.
The fact is that cars are a tool. They can be used well or poorly. I have a nice Pathfinder because I want to be able to drive to the places I enjoy hiking, biking and climbing. A lot of those you need 4WD to get to. I enjoy being able to go skiing and ice climbing without having to worry about the snow as much.
I complain about gas because I think a 20 cent increase in two weeks is freaking psycho. I'd probably complain the same if food or electricity went up that much. I can't afford two cars so my SUV is my primary vehicle. And while I want it for my weekend recreation I have to commute in it too. And that does add up.
Indeed. Driving style can make a HUGE impact on fuel economy. I've got a 2001 Insight with the CVT transmission. If I drive like Joe Sixpack in his '84 Mustang (crushing the gas on every takeoff and waiting 'til the last second to brake), I get around 45mpg. On the other hand, I've had trips where I've averaged over 90mpg. The major keys to high gas mileage on my Insight are:
1. Try to maintain a constant speed.
2. Accelerate evenly when taking off, using a moderate amount of electric motor assist.
3. Try to maintain a steady cruising speed between 35 and 45mph. The mpg bar will show you know when you've found the "sweet spot".
4. Gas mileage is noticeably higher in warmer weather.
5. Maintain large following distances, avoid hard braking, and roll through stops whenever possible. If you start braking early enough for that stop light, it could turn green while you're at 12mph instead of sitting at a dead stop.
6. Use the hardest, lowest rolling resistance tires you feel comfortable with (the stock Bridgestone Potenzas are good for me). Keep them properly inflated; underinflation decreases fuel economy.
7. Above about 30mph, you get better mpg with the windows up and air conditioner/vent in "economy" than with the windows down. Never use "auto" mode, since it disables the Insight's auto-stop feature.
Contrary to popular opinion, using a higher-grade gasoline has shown no noticeable affect on fuel economy.
My lifetime mpg over ~22,800 miles is 59.7mpg, including a trip from Louisville, KY to Seattle, WA and back by way of Montana. Through Snoqualmie and Lookout Pass. In January. With stock tires & no chains. As long as you don't try to plow through snow deeper than about 5-6", you should be fine through the winter.
Final note: don't forget to check with your accountant for a possible tax break (both state and federal) on your "green" vehicle. Being able to write off a couple thousand in taxes can make that $20,000 Insight a hell of a lot more appealing.