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Hybrid/Electric Vehicles: Should I Buy?
nissin writes "I'm ready to buy my first vehicle, and would like to hear your experiences with either hybrid or electric vehicles. Are they a good alternative to conventional vehicles, or just a geek toy? Do they perform well in the city? How about on long road trips? I am also interested in hearing about other alternative, yet practical, forms of transportation that I may have missed."
we do not buy ecological vehicles!
A friend in another city has a hybrid. According to him the pickup is slow but the fuel economy is great. Pure electric would be super if you didn't have to make long trips and always had an electrical outlet to charge when parked.
Pet Peeve #843287: SUV drivers that whine about the price of gas. You bought that overpriced penis extension, learn to live with the consequences.
Trolling is a art,
Personally, I am going to give the technology a few years to mature. I remember reading recently about GM dropping a line of Hybrid cars because the EPA in California banned a particular type of appliance required for re-charging the vehicle. I think it will soon take hold, but I am giving it a bit of time for many of these details to be sorted out.
Wait a few more years, you will be grateful. The advantages of having new technology early are many, but so are the drawbacks. I understand that this is not a "new" technology in the strictest sense, but it is not a mature one. I am waiting, and I would advise you to do so also.
Considering a hybrid is something like $40,000 canadian, and I just bought a 1987 Honda Civic for $900 that gets 40+mpg and runs perfect, I would spend my money elsewhere. But I'm cheap.
As the proud owner of a Toyota Prius, I can definitely recommend one. I'm not too hot on the looks, but the mileage rocks, and it's been very reliable so far. And it isn't as pokey as you may expect a hybrid to be. You may also want to look at the Honda Insight (If it is still being made).
Where's my lobbyist? Right here.
2 of my friends have hybrids (one the Insight and the other the Prius), and they both like them. They are great on the city streets, very quiet and lots of pickup from a standing start thanks to the electric motors. For longer trips, you'll love the quiet, the fuel economy, and the insane distances you can go without needing to fill up your tank. The downside tends to be that they have poor pickup at freeway speeds.
The other big issue is the feel of the ride. Some people love it, others don't. They have low-friction tires and stiff suspensions (to minimize the amount of energy loss). This tends to make the car ride more like a sporty car (you feel every bump) than a luxury car (soft suspension smooths out the bumps). Some people love that, others hate it.
Overall, I'd suggest taking it out for a spin, and see whether you like it. They are practical cars though.
sigs are a waste of space
Electric vehicles can't go very far or very fast, and when you drive one people will think you're gay.(*)
(*)Sponsored by the gasoline industry of America.
___
If you think big enough, you'll never have to do it.
Hybrids get great mileage, and they work. What's not to like? Buy a Prius, or a hybrid Civic. Or, wait a couple years, because Toyota is supposedly going to sell everything in a hybrid model by 2005.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
and what good would that do in this era? Have you noticed the cost of natural gas lately? Did you know that it is going WAY up?
.02
Buy a smaller car that gets great gas mileage (ie Saturns are a good example) that doesn't cost much money (Saturn SL-series cars (before the ugly Ion's) were under 12k).
That's my worthless
I have a 2003 Honda Civic Hybrid and I love it. Average about 45 mpg. Use it to commute on the DC beltway - plenty of pickup for merging and passing. Have taken 2 4-6 hour trips with the car, and it's just fine - like driving a regular Civic. Really, the only noticeable difference between the Hybrid an the regular Civic is that you can feel the car nose forward just a bit as you press down on the brake pedal and the generator that is driven by the brakes kicks in. You should also note that you can take $2000 off your adjusted gross income on your 2003 taxes, and many states provide addtional incentives. Excise tax was waved in Maryland ($2000), and you can drive in the HOV lanes in Virginia without a second passenger. Bottom line - it's a great car, and a good deal to boot.
If you look at the fuel efficiency info on the EPA site, you'll notice that the TDI (Turbo Diesel Injection) Volkswagons can get around 50MPG. They start easy in the winter, unlike the older diesels. Check out www.tdiclub.com. I just got a 2000 TDI Beetle and it's awesome. Also, there are a few modifications that give you loads of extra power from the engine. Some will even increase efficiency and give you more power. These are great cars, go check em out.
If you like getting 55 MPG, that is. :)
Alternative fuels are necessary for national security, in my opinion.
1) The US defeated Japan and Germany chiefly by starving them of oil. The Japanese and Germans had jet fighter planes sitting on the tarmac, ready to pulverize the best we had in the air, but they had no oil to fly them. One day the same thing could happen to America.
2) The environmental impact of fossil fuels, of course, is horrible.
3) With alternative fuels, we wouldn't need to be in the Middle East at all.
Alternative, renewable fuel resources will take us a long way towards national and personal independence.
--- Grow a pair, liberals... stop letting the Republicans bully you!
I own a 2002 Prius, and have pre-ordered a 2004 (new and improved). In short, I love my car. It's got plenty of power for your daily commute, and with my 20-25 miles per day driving, I can easily go two weeks or more between fillups. I've also made the trip from Southern California to Phoenix AZ on 6-7 gallons. It's also beneficial to know that I'm not polluting nearly as much as the big SUV's I share the road with, since the current model is SULEV rated, and the new one also carries the AT-PZEV rating for partial zero emissions.
/
The current model doesn't carry a whole lot, and you can't tow with either generation, but for most of us, that's not a regular issue. The new version is a hatchback with fold-downs eats, so it solves the "carrying stuff" issue.
There's plenty of Yahoo! Groups and other forums on electric or hybrid cars. A couple I personally hang out on and post alot of good geek info:
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/2004-prius/
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/toyota-prius
See you there!
$ man woman *
-bash:
Being more maneuverable and closer to the ground, compact cars are generally safer for people inside _and_ outside the car.
People who believe that SPUTES are safer really need to get a grip on reality.
Forget diamonds, copyright is forever.
Ars Technica did a really good review of the Honda Insight. You might find it informative.
I've heard that starting with next year's models, a lot of manufacturers are going to offer both Hybrid fuel system cars, but also in "traditional" body styles. Of course this is a rumor so... YMMV (pun intended). ;)
;)
I have a bud who owns one and loves it (the Toyota hybrid). While the mileage isn't as good as they advertise it to be, it certainly is up there... almost as good as the old Geo Metro 3-cylinder car.
And you can't beat how cool it is when you're sitting at a stop light and the car is absolutely silent. 8)
Diplomacy is the art of saying, "Nice doggie!" until you can find a rock.
OK - Listen to this - Ford Escape Hybrid. Summer 2004, though.
I've been driving a 2003 Toyota Prius since April. I'm very happy with it.
It has decent acceleration, about the same as other cars I've driven. It's comfortable, quite roomy for a small car, the back seat has decent leg room. I get 45-48 miles per gallon, closer to 45 during hot periods when I use the A/C a lot. I paid about $21K, including options (I didn't get the GPS system). There's also a tax credit for hybrid vehicles that you should look into.
The acceleration from a standing start is quite good because both engines (electric and gasoline) pull. The gasoline engine cuts off at stops, and in slow stop-and-go traffic only the electric motor runs, which is why the Prius gets better fuel efficiency in city driving than on the highway (the EPA rating is 52 city, 47 highway).
The 2004 Prius appears to be a substantial improvement: it's larger, but gets even better fuel efficiency.
Right now, TDIs are:
:)
* fun to drive (german engineering)
* available from small Golf, sedan Jetta, wagon JettaWagen or trendy NewBug
* very safe (tons of safety features by default)
* lotsa torque (you drive torque, not horsepower)
* great mileage (EPA certifies 49 hwy, 42 city)
* you can run on BioDiesel (all or mixture of BioD + diesel)
* soon, Diesel in the US will be very clean (extra low sulphur diesel, like in Europe and Japan)
* diesel is proven technology
* 700 miles on one tank (some guys get 1000 miles)
* diesel fuel has waaay stabler price (no high huckups) than gas
* low maintenance (no sparkplugs, longer oil change intervals...)
* engines made by Audi engineers
* you can easily tinker the engine yourself
Check out http://www.tdiclub.com
I own a TDI and is just great.
Peace!
I'm not sure how the pickup is slow.. The beauty of electric DC motors is the constant acceleration. I'm sure the set points in the current profile that hackers will one day be able to get into the cars to change the performance curves.
For more geekier chemistry on electric/hybrids, here's Princton's chemistry website about hybrid electrics
Pros:
At a stop light, they are silent and no emissions. Silent start-up and DC-motor acceleration until the gas engine kicks on. Cool reuse of breaking energy into charging batteries instead of boring friction and heat in conventional cars. Can be used as a power plant, say, in power outages, or maybe one day, cars plugged into grid can run gas engine to produce electricty during peak times. And they sell pretty well
Cons:
From a cost point of view, they'll never beat out the super-efficient gas motors mini-cars. Battery life and cost of replacement (currently >= value of older hybrid vehicle). The impact on environment for spent toxic chemicals. Engine repairs. (I'm not sure if you've ever look in one, but they are jam-packed with every inch filled and basically unserviceable in terms of the ever fewer small jobs you can do yourself). Oh, and you *MUST* use specially licensed high-voltage service techs, which are few and far between currently. Will cause gas prices to rise -- see econ 101 supply vs. demand
What if you made a full internal combustion car with a lightweight aluminum chasis, a variable speed transmission, low resistance tires and sleek aerodynamics?
This has pretty much been done. Aside from the full CVT, I believe this kind of car is called one of "Saturn S Series", "Honda Civic", "Toyota Corrola", etc. These cars pretty much all have a spaceframe chassis, small 4-cylinder engine, smaller tires, etc, and they represent just about the best mass-produced conventional cars can do without becoming a "Toyota Echo" or "Geo Metro".
I personally have no problems with the idea of a hybrid car. However, all we need, now, is economies of scale bringing down price. The relative simplicity of a hybrid car (electric + smaller gas engine) should allow up-front costs and maintenance costs to go even lower than current cars (eventually, that is).
Healthcare article at Kuro5hin
I've got a 2003 Prius, and I wish I had waited a year. Still, the mileage and range kicks ass. The civic is pretty sweet to, though. Especially if you are into modding your car. All the aesthetic and suspension bits from the regular civics fit the hybrid (just no drivetrain parts). The prius has very little aftermarket support.
Where's my lobbyist? Right here.
Whenever you switch from one car to another, you
have to get used to the new car.
Compared to most other vehicles, the Toyota Prius'
brakes can seem a little "grabby." After a short
time driving, you get used to it.
Heck, I'd rather have "grabby" brakes compared to
"mushy" brakes any day, for safety reasons!
-mrv
My girlfriend got a 2003 Civic Hybrid with a CVT (Continuously Variable Transmission) last April. This vehcile is phenominal. As soon as I have the money, I will be getting one myself.
With proper driving technique, I've gotten it as high as 52.6mpg (average). (There is an instantaneous mpg meter beneath the average gauge that shows you what you're getting as you go over hills and so forth--it really helps you adjust your driving for maximum efficiency.) Without much thought, it usually averages between 43-46mpg. With a 12.7 gallon (it might be 13) tank, I've gone as far as 620 miles.
The engineering is quite nice, the car has been very reliable. The ride is remarkably smooth and the acceleration is silky. Handling is amazing. One nasty downside is the car is very light, so it hydroplanes easier than most vehicles. I would highly recommend getting AA-AAA rated tires (like Falkens) if you drive in wet areas a lot. They will help reduce this.
The interior is great too. If you didn't know it was a hybrid, you would think you were driving a regular car (albeit the console is very slick, kind of a retro look). It's a very spatious, full-sized sedan. The backseat floor does not have a hump in the middle and is also quite generous space-wise. I cannot say enough about the interior: it's a very decent size.
A quick summary of how it works: you have a small, 1.3L gasoline engine (I think 52hp). Right on the drive train, just before the transmission is the electric motor (that contribute an aditional 41hp for a total of 93). When electricity is "pumped" into the motor, it obviously reduces the load on the engine. This is used for acceleration and hill climbing. When idle, the electric motor does what all motors do when pushed externally: it generates power to charge the battery. The brakes are regenerative. When you stop at traffic lights or stop-signs, the engine stops to save gasoline. Since it has solid state ignition, it has zero turn-over, so it starts instantly (as soon as you let off the brake).
Apparantly, there are also a variety of hacks that can be done to cause it to favor the electric motor more for those of us who are really light on the gas pedal. I haven't really investigated this, so consider them rumors.
My recommendation: get one ASAP. You will not be disappointed with this car. It could use a few extra trimmings, but even in its simplicity feature-wise, it's a very enjoyable car. My girlfriend calculates it will pay for itself in a matter of 5 years. Nothing much more to say. At least go test drive one.
Oh, and we also looked at the Toyota Prius. Those things suck ass. They are very rough to drive. The computer screen is always full of motion and it's very distracting without lending much usefulness. Furthermore, it's cramped inside and the vehcile controls are just... bizarre. The engine compartment is also very cramped. Doing work on that vehicle would require taking a lot of shit apart, ergo it may be very expensive to service. Handling sucked. Overall, the Toyota Prius is just as shitty as its Echo counterpart.
One last note: you may want to hold off on a hybrid from anyone though. Honda has plans to market a fuel-cell powered electric car in the US within the next couple of years. Those will be far more interesting I think, if they ever actually reach dealerships.
Disclaimer: I do not work for Honda in any way. They just happen to make a spectacular hybrid vehcile.
Join Tor today!
Actually I just bought a 2003 Civic Hybrid on Sept 1st. And I can't really complain about much. No the pickup isn't spectacular. It's a 4 cylinder engine and a small one. Total HP is somewhere around 90 *I think*. You don't buy this for power.
500 miles on a tank of gas IS pretty spectacular, when said tank is only 13.2 gallons. 42 mpg average so far, with a mix of commuting and highway driving. That figure is still rising too. I did about a 100 mile round trip highway, and got 53 mpg. Damn nice on the wallet.
The Civic Hybrid is just that. A Civic. The only significant difference is that you can't fold the rear seat down because that's where the battery pack is mounted vertically behind the read seat. Trunk space? you couldn't even the tell battery pack was there if it wasn't pointed out to you. Plenty of space for normal people.
The dealer readily admits they aren't entirely sure how long the battery pack will remain useful. So it comes with an 8 yr 80k mile warranty on that system; independant of the vehicle warranty. I got a 6 yr 100k total vehicle warranty so it's good for as long as I realistically plan to have it.
Geek factor: I'm finding it's cool being able to watch (& feel) the electric assist kick in. Or the engine shut off while I'm braking to a stop. The engine shut off is selectable; there's an 'econ' button on the dash. If it's not selected then the engine won't stop. Summer and needing AC are the main reason for that. The AC doesn't run if the engine isn't running. The fan still works but it can get warm. Having the option is a nice touch.
I'm still in the 'new car' mode of figuring things out, but this has a whole knew paradigm of stuff to figure out. The dash gauges are a pretty informative mix of what's going on. It has a instant mpg bar that goes up n down as you drive, as well as displaying the overall mpg for a trip mileage. (2 of these). One I have on total vehicle mileage so I can see what I'm getting as I continue driving. The other I use for various trips to see what different types of driving produce fuel economy wise.
All in all I'm very happy with it so far.
People in cars cause accidents....accidents in cars cause people
They are a great value. Your mom would be proud of you.
If driven properly, you should see as high as 46-48mpg in city driving. If you drive with little concern for economy, you usually get around 43-45mpg.
How about on long road trips?Again, driven carefully, I've gotten as high as 52.6mpg on my girl's Honda Civic Hybrid. That is accomplished by driving around ~55mph and slowing a bit when climbing hills. If you drive aggressively (say, 65-70mpg constant), you get around 47-48mpg. They can certainly keep up with traffic, mind you.
Remember, this experience is with a Honda Civic Hybrid, not a Prius. Your milage (arf) will vary.
Join Tor today!
First, the good news: I drive my car about 40 miles a day (driving commutes suck!) and get around 55 miles per gallon. My commute is about 70%/30% highway to city driving. When I drive it around the city (which I generally try _not_ to do - Boston is bike-friendly enough, plus I live near the T), I get mileage closer to 50 mpg, and when I've gone on longer roadtrips it's up near 60 mpg.
More good news: It's a real car. It seats five. It has a reasonable sized trunk (not huge, though). With a few exceptions, it's very similar to the non-hybrid Civic, so my car is comfortable, well equipped (CD player, power everything, ABS, etc.) and pretty well designed. I wasn't interested in the Insight 'cause it's small and somewhat awkward and not what I call a "real" car.
The not-so-good news: The one large complaint I have about the car is that the back seat does not fold down (that's where they stashed the batteries).
Some economics: I spent a little less than $20K on my car. The hybrid is about three or four thousand more than the regular Civic. I'll get a $2000 deduction on my 2003 income tax (giving me about $600), and I'll save some (but not tons) on gas vs. the regular Civic that probably adds up to over about $1500 over 100,000 miles. So basically, I break even. If I had bought a used car, I would've spent far less money, even in the long run.
I think I made the right decision when I bought my car because:
So, the bad news is that supporting hybrid technology and being good to the environment (while still owning a car) is an expensive proposition right now. The good news is that the more and more people are buying the cars and that if you can afford them, they're quality automobiles.
I'd be happy to answer questions about the Civic or my decision-making process. I also collected some links and made some notes about the car - you can see those here.
I took a job which requires about 150 miles of travel per day, so I purchased the car for basic transportation. I purchased the manual transmission model due to personal preference, YMMV (literally) with the automatic model. On average, I get between 52 and 58 mpg on basic highway driving at 65 mph. Air conditioning will take 5 mpg off of that. Traveling at 75 mph will drop another 5 to 8 off of that. Wind and weather conditions can effect the mileage as well. Stop and go driving in town with the air on will net me 35 to 40 mpg. Drafting semis on the Interstate at 75 mph will get you 60+ mpg.
I'm a big guy - 6'4" and 250 lbs, and I fit in the machine pretty well. I have about an inch of headroom left. I can get the seat far enough back, but no one but a child would be able to sit behind me.
I paid less than $20000 for it - plus there is a one-time $2000 tax-deduction, so that's a bonus.
I've put about 16000 miles on it so far. It drives and handles like any other 4 cylinder basic transportation car I've ever driven. The torque is better, though, so I don't feel like I'm going to have to get out and push while trying to get onto the Interstate.
Some nits: It takes 0W20 oil, which I've had trouble finding. The good news is that oil changes are only every 5000 miles. It doesn't have much cargo capacity - total weight is only 800 lbs. You can really tell the difference when you have it full. The rear seats don't fold down like a standard Civic (the batteries sit on the rear axle), so the trunk is a little confining. I would only rate it at one-dead-body.
Overall, it's been great regular transportation. I liked it alot better than the other Honda hybrid. That car was smaller and lighter and got pushed around on the Interstate. This is a regular Civic in most every way except the powertrain.
----------
If your answer is Microsoft, you obviously didn't understand the question.
repair costs
What makes hybrids affordable is that there are massive government subsidies reducing the price of the car. This masks the fact that many of the parts for these cars are enormously expensive. A hybrid Civic that gets into a minor city-street collision with a minivan or SUV is probably going to be so expensive to repair, that the insurance company will want to total it out.
If the long-term potential costs of maintenance and parts doesn't scare you off, and you don't expect to haul a boat trailer or something, then the hybrid cars can be a terrific way to go. Fantastic gas millage and a super-quiet ride. The inventor of regenerative breaks should get a medal.
Personally, I'll stick with my Crown Victoria for now. It may drink gas, (I get about 20 MPG from my highway and city driving combined) but it's safe, it seats six, and has a trunk big enough to easily fit three dead hookers. More, if you chop 'em up and put them in bags. Plus, the V8 is powerful enough to tow a lot of stuff when I need to, and the suspension is so smooth, it's like driving a hovercraft. Best of all, the reputation for being an "old man's car" means cheap insurance in spite of being almost the same car that the cops are tearing around town in.
The Crown Vic LS is like a Lincoln town car for half the price, and is the most under-rated car of the last decade, IMHO.
If you really want to get a hybrid car, consider looking for a used Toyota Prius, perhaps sold by some Yuppie asshole who only bought it to be trendy, and wants to trade up to a Mini Cooper S now that Minis are considered the New Hotness.
Information wants to be anthropomorphized.
Diesals are cheap, so if you only care about saving money it's a good alternative, BUT if you care about the enviroment it's far worse than petrol and hybrid alternatives.
It is true that modern diesel engines produce a lot less carbon dioxide than before, so some people claim diesels are enviromentally friendly, but diesels produce much more of smog-forming nitrogen oxides and toxic particulate matter (or soot) into the air we breathe than petrol counterparts. These particles, because they are small enough to be inhaled deep into the lungs, can cause or exacerbate a variety of serious health problems.
Even with the EuroIV(2005) and EuroV(2008) regulations, diesels are still much larger pollutants than petrol engines, and release more arsenic, lead, sulfur, and other particulate matter into the enviroment.
Pet Peeve #843290: The new trend of prefixing comments with "Pet Peeve #i+1"
Pet Peeve #i+2 - I fed my Pet Peeve today. He ate everything. I was so proud. Then I shaved him and took him outside to play, where he was suddenly run over by some insensitive clod in an SUV.
"Everything you know is wrong. (And stupid.)"
Moderation Totals: Wrong=2, Stupid=3, Total=5.
2000-current Honda Insight, 2-seater:p ?ModelName=Insight
p ?ModelName=Civic+Hybrid
l e.html and here http://www.toyota.com/prius/minisite/specs/specs_b ody.html )
http://www.hondacars.com/models/model_overview.as
2003-current Honda Civic Hybrid 5-passenger compact sedan:
http://www.hondacars.com/models/model_overview.as
2001-2003 Toyota Prius 5-passenger compact sedan:
http://www.toyota.com/prius
2004 Toyota Prius 5-passenger midsize liftback:
http://www.toyota.com/prius/minisite/index.html
(for those who dislike Flash, info here:
http://www.toyota.com/prius/minisite/html/printab
if you live in Japan there is also the hybrid
Estima (7-8 passenger minivan similar to the Previa),
and the mild-hybrid Crown large sedan.
if you can wait a year or so, Ford should have out
their hybrid Escape (info: http://www.hybridford.com (Flash only),
a "small" SUV/CUV that actually has towing capacity.
Lexus should also have their RX330 hybrid (the
RX400H) small SUV/CUV out (see http://www.lexus.com/about/hybrid/index.html
with Toyota shortly following with the hybrid
Highlander cousin.
I've also heard of the GM/Saturn Vue, the Nissan
Altima (I think that's the model), and the Toyota
Sienna, as next on the block with hybrid powertrains
(i.e. full/assist hybrids).
-mrv
Got the same car. Love it. Not too long ago I read some article (in Ars Technica) about how driving the HCH changes the way you drive. It's absolutely true. I'm from a country where people drive with intent to kill. Stop signs are taken as suggestions. Always drove fast, recklessly and (my wife would argue) stupidly. I was brought up that way, sorry. Anyway, since I got the HCH my only goal while driving is to maximize the mileage. This model comes with an instantaneous mileage reading and a cumulative one. So now I rarely go over 68 mph. I'm getting 57~58 mpg on the road, and around 48 in the city (I have the manual shift one - another cultural hangup). There's just one thing that I started doing that is definitely moronic. I tend to lock on big semis and tailgate them to improve the mileage even more. Feel like Lance Armstrong. Except he's not retarded, I think. Anyway the technology on these guys is pretty awesome. You get to a stop sign, and the engine stops. Start rolling again and the engine starts as you press the accelerator. A thing of beauty. Plus it's really quiet, and if you choose to ignore it, you would never know that you are not driving just a regular Civic. Finally, you get an obnoxious smug feeling when the idiots on the SUV zoom by you. (Though you could hit 100 mph if you were not so compulsively trying to break the barrier of 60 mpg).
They are still CRAP (TM). They will continue to be crap until they are 100% fuel cell driven or batery driven. If your main engine is electric having breaking recouperation makes sense. If it is hybrid it only adds weight, complexity and increases maintenance costs and it cannot recoup more then around 20% of the used energy ().
For example the new Toyota Prius delivers lower MPG then the Daihatsu Sirion which is made by the same Toyota group (51 best vs 57 best). It is also slower and more sluggish (14 s to 62 compared to under 9.0). It also has higher emissions (almost twice worse on all counts). All of it while carrying the same amount of passengers and having only 30 liters more luggage space. It has a huge maintenance bill as the battery cells last only around 40-50 thousand miles and it has high ongoing maintenance as well. It is also a bomb. There are very few things that are more suicidal then sitting on a shorting battery in an accident with a fuel tank nearby.
Also I will not even compare it to a modern diesel. The new Audi A2 TDI which once again carries the same number of people and has the same luggage space (320 or so liters) can deliver 80mpg with even less emissions then the Sirion. That is VW which I hate. Still it is the diesel king, but Peugeot, Mitsubishi and several others are not that far behind with figures in the 50-60 MPG with corresponding emissions for a small family car. They also beat the crap out of the Prius on maintenance, acceleration and overall driving experience.
Hybrids are not the answer. They help develop technology which is useful for fuel cell or fully electric vehicles, but they are definitely not the answer. So I think they should be sponsored even further so that technology can be developed. But I will not buy one. I will chose something less polluting.
Baker's Law: Misery no longer loves company. Nowadays it insists on it
http://www.sigsegv.cx/
Do the math: let's say you drive 12k miles a year, this is 285 gallons of gas. So you pay around $500 a year for gas. A regular sedan owner with 21 mpg would pay twice as much, ie $500 a year more. In 10 years he will pay $5k more. Person who bought hybrid already paid ~$4k more when he bought the car, and will pay at least ~$1k more for more expensive service.
So from the point of view of money, hybrids do not worth it - and would be considerably worse if automakers were not forced to sell them (some percentage of total cars sold should be hybrid or electric in U.S.).
I think hybrids are great for environment and a cool techno gadget, but hopes of saving on gas - forget about it. Not in the U.S. where gas is still very cheap (compare with Europe).
MSDOS: 20+ years without remote hole in the default install
I prefer my hydrogen powered Jeep, but maybe that's just me.
Eve Fairbanks says I drive a hybrid!LOL
Trunk space? ... Plenty of space for normal people.
And with the 500 miles off of a single tank of gas, there is no credit card trail at gas stations on the way to drop off the body. Efficient and practical.
four nine eighteen twenty-7 thirty-nine forty-7 fiftyeight sixty-nine seventy-9 eighty-8 one-hundred-and-nine one-twenty
Whatever about the mileage improvements of a gasoline-electric vehicle, many posters have already pointed out that current clean-burning modern diesel cars already get 50-70 mpg. All the major manufacturers (yes even the American ones, though of course the Europeans are ahead in diesel technology) are bringing out diesel-electric hybrids over the next few years. This innovation should add around 50% to the mileage of typical diesel cars. Within 10 years we will see 100mpg diesel-electric hybrids.
Da Blog
Let's see...
1999..........$0.899
2003..........$1.799
Yeah, it can't possibly double by 2007. Why, we'd have to get involved in a war in the Middle East and have accidents at offshore oil rigs and have problems with the Alaskan Pipe line and have an energy company-friendly administration that won't release oil reserves...
R: That voice. Where have I heard that voice before? B: In about 365 other episodes. But I don't know who it is either.
Check out the eCycle, a diesel-electric hybrid motorcycle that gets 180MPG (no typo). The only disadvantage I see is that they aren't out yet... :^)
Slashdot's first reaction to VMware
He means low rolling resistance tires. Rolling resistance is primarily due to the sidewalls of the tire flexing (resulting in friction within the tire) as it rolls. This resistance can be reduced by stiffening the sidewalls and using rubber compounds that are more elastic in the sidewalls. To see an extreme example of rolling resistance try pushing your car accross level ground with the tires inflated to the reccomended pressure, then do it again with the tires inflated to half their nominal pressure. Big difference huh? This is why underinflated tires can overheat and catastrophicly fail cough*firestone*cough.
"Prefiero morir de pie que vivir siempre arrodillado!"
It's a fuel efficient penis extension...
Yes, Civic Hybrids are fairly expensive vehicles for what you get. It's a matter of weighing the appropriate price-performance ratio.
It should be interesting to note that while Honda sells these for about 20,000$, Honda manufactures them at 30,000$ (according to a salesperson at Herson's Honda in Rockville, MD).
So while it's good that we're supporting hybrid technology and trying to encourage auto manufacturers, they may not move forward as quickly as we'd like. Perhaps with increased popularity, they'll produce a higher volume and refine the manufacturing process? Who knows.
Unfortunately, according to the same salesperson, Honda is interested in selling these vehicles so they can reduce the average vehicle emmissions of all cars they sell. This allows them to legally sell more SUVs and other gas guzzlers (hence they are willing to make a 10,000$ write-off on every Civic Hybrid). Nothing for free it seems. What a lousy trade-off.
Join Tor today!
You're forgetting the great tax benefits you get with owning a hybrid.
politics, food, music, life: FatMixx
I've had my Civic Hybrid for a week now. I'm getting about 40 mpg with a lot of city and heavy traffic driving (Newark, NJ). It's slowly but steadily going up, though. Earlier this week it was 38 or so.
The engine shut-off isn't quite what it's cracked up to be. Yeah, when you stop at a light or in traffic the engine shuts off. But if you creep forward a bit the engine won't shut off the next time you stop. You have to get up to a certain speed or go a certain distance/time (not sure yet what the rules actually are) or next time you stop the engine stays on. And it doesn't even recharge the battery at that time. It's very frustrating because I sit in a lot of stop & go traffic and you can't just stay put when all the cars in front of you are rolling. You let off the brake and the engine kicks back on, and the only way to ensure it turns off next time is to let a big gap form between you and the car in front of you then gun it and step on the brake. Not a thing you want to be doing in heavy traffic.
I'm not yet 100% convinced a hybrid was the best choice. The gas mileage is great and the ultra low emissions is nice, but I passed up on a lot of frills to get them. (You can get the top model Civic practically maxed out for less than the hybrid.. you give up a sun roof, fog lights, fold-down rear seats, and more). But for all intents and purposes, even the hybrid is just a regular car. It's spunky enough. I've had no trouble getting up to speed on the highway or keeping up the speed. Even with such a "weak" engine it still goes pretty fast. And besides, it's one of the only cars that gives you that 'holier than thou' feeling. So maybe I'm 80% convinced. Ask me again in a couple of weeks.
Anything less than perfection is failure.
I test drove all three (Civic, Prius, TDI) but chose a Golf TDI because it was less expensive than either the Civic Hybrid or Prius, and VW's ergonomics are far better than the Civic and Prius (the new Prius is going to be a far better experience than the initial version). Plus, with VW cars you can get the Monsoon sound upgrade for a nominal fee (8-amp, 8-speaker CD/Tape/FM/AM) in all models. The Golf TDI comes in two flavors (GL, GLS) and the Jetta TDI comes in both sedan and station wagon, also in GL and GLS trim. That's right, a real, honest to God station wagon that isn't half bad and can really haul a decent load.
The TDI will gladly haul you at over 100 MPH if need be, and I typically get 43 MPG driving in D/FW traffic well above the posted limits and/or in horrendous sprawl-induced jams. Stick with the five-speed unless you simply cannot drive a standard ... the extra mileage will make you smile. I usually drive 560 miles between fillups, and I often have a gallon or more left in the tank at that point (VW's ad claims 750 miles between fillups ... that's possible if you drive 65 MPH and hit no traffic on Interstates).
P.S. The typical diesel gas pump is a filthy mess unless you buy diesel at the pricier pay-at-the-pump stations that actually offer it (usually there are only one or two diesel pumps). Truck stops have the best prices ... usually ten to twenty cents per gallon below the national brand stations, but they're really nasty to fill up at (and no one in an eighteen wheeler, let alone a "dually" pickup, can see your TDI).
The two most common things in the Universe are dark matter and stupidity.
In 10 years he will pay $5k more. Person who bought hybrid already paid ~$4k more when he bought the car, and will pay at least ~$1k more for more expensive service. However, in the states we get a nice $3k (I think that's the right figure) tax exemption which means you're in the black after only the second year of ownership.
"The dash gauges are a pretty informative mix of what's going on. It has a instant mpg bar that goes up n down as you drive, as well as displaying the overall mpg for a trip mileage. (2 of these). One I have on total vehicle mileage so I can see what I'm getting as I continue driving. The other I use for various trips to see what different types of driving produce fuel economy wise."
:)
:)
My parent's 1988 Ford Aerostar had all that. My dad's 95 VW Jetta had that, as does my brother's 2000 Jetta. I'm sort of amused that most people haven't had this kind of thing for years.
I think you missed a key point - he's not talking about mileage, he's talking about a REALTIME miles-per-gallon display. That is the instantaneous mpg your vehicle is traveling at a moment in time. I have a 2000 Jetta with every option, and unless he added it afterwards, your brother does NOT have this option.
On a different note on this feature, the only cars I've seen with a real-time mpg display before the hybrids started coming out was all the BMWs (that I've driven) for the last decade or so. It is a very handy feature that I think more cars SHOULD have. It's amazing to see how little changing your highway speed in a BMW M3, for example, makes the different between a constant 20mpg on the highway and between a constant 25-30mpg.
It's also very amusing to watch your realtime mpg when you're jaunting around a racetrack. If you want to see how hard you're really driving the car, it's alot more telling to watch the mpg instead of the speedometer or even the tach. I still get a thrill everytime I blip the throttle to downshift to third at turn 11 at Thunderhill and watch the mpg dial spike from 20 to almost zero in an instant.
"This is Zombo Com, and welcome to you who have come to Zombo Com" - www.zombo.com
A hybrid Civic that gets into a minor city-street collision with a minivan or SUV is probably going to be so expensive to repair, that the insurance company will want to total it out.
A Honda Civic Hybrid that gets into a "minor" collision is going to use the exact same parts to repair as a non-hybrid Civic!!! Meaning there is less chance of it getting totaled, because it cost more!!! The only non standard parts are the engine, batteries, and dashboard. The batteries are in the safest place in the car -- behind the rear seat. If your batteries and dashboard are destroyed, you've got bigger problems then replacing your car -- you're most likely dead. "Minor" collisions rarely require replacing engines; if you're in a collision that requires a new engine, your car is probably totalled regardless of whether or not it is a hybrid!
"Freedom means freedom for everybody" -- Dick Cheney
Have had it for a year, and learned a lot about them.
There are three hybrids being sold right now:
- Honda Civic Hybrid
- Honda Insight
- (2003) Toyota Prius
The Hondas use a gas engine as their primary engine with an electric engine (which doubles as a generator during braking) as a secondary source of acceleration. Think of this arrangement as a gas engine with a massive-battery-powered electric supercharger. If the electric engine fails, the gas engine will still get you there -- it just accelerates slower.
The Prius is the other way around -- its primary engine is electric, and a secondary gas engine gives it the acceleration. In the Prius, it is possible to drive (with very little gas pedal pressure) on electric alone -- something the Prius owners call "Zen driving." If the gas engine fails, you can still drive on the electric.
Reliability:
I know people who own both a Honda Civic Hybrid (HCH) and a 2003 Prius. I personally own the HCH. I would have no hesitation in buying one again. I average 54 MPG in the summer, and 45 MPG in the winter. Range is ~600 miles per tank; I drive 50 miles a day, and fill up twice a month. I have heard that it is possible to get ~700 miles/tank in a Prius, but have never got a first hand report of that.
The Honda had one early bug with deep, cold weather -- very occasionally, the electric system would shut down and not restart until the car was shut down and restarted. A flash of the computer firmware fixed it. Many people reported this problem. It also had an issue with a squeak in a support pillar, fixed by shimming with a business card. Maintenance visits are scheduled for every 10000 miles. Gas mileage is better on the highway (51 mpg) than the city (49 mpg).
The 2003 Prius has had more problems. Issues were with "highway wandering" -- it feels like the car wants to migrate around the road -- and shaking of the steering wheel at low speeds. Cause: the entire power steering rack needed to be replaced. There's also the gas engine failure called the "Big Hand" that's fixed with a similar car reboot, but it's caused by the Accelerator Pedal Assembly needing to be replaced. Many people report that they've had both of these problems. Maintenance is more frequent at 7,500 miles. Gas mileage is better in the city (51 mpg) than the highway (49 mpg).
I don't know anyone who drives a Honda Insight. Supposedly they still make ~1500 of them a year, but rumor has it that Honda is going to be dropping them.
Near-term and Farther-out Models:
The Prius has been out longer than the HCH, and is getting a technological refresh in 2004. The 2003 Prius and the HCH are both 4-seater compacts, but the 2004 Prius will be a mid-size, with better mileage (59 city, 51 highway) and better acceleration (0-60 in 10 instead of 12). There is currently a waiting list for them.
Cars/Trucks/SUVs due to be released as hybrids in 2004:
Honda Accord,
Honda CR-V,
Ford Escape
2004 or 2005:
Chevy Silverado
Saturn Vue
GMC Suburban
Here's an in-depth look at Hybrid technology from the Union of Concerned Scientists (Google HTML translation here).
Here's the best description of what it's like to drive one.
There is a federal tax deduction of $2000 for buying a new hybrid. Several states also offer their own tax deductions or credits -- check here to look them up. Some states (but not all) also let you drive them in their high occupancy lanes, even though you may only have one driver in it.
Oh, by the way -- I know that the 2003 Honda Civic Hybrids are
"It remains to be seen if the human brain is powerful enough to solve the problems it has created." Dr. Richard Wallace
I would disagree. A hybrid car can save money in some other ways too:
>>it's safe, it seats six, and has a trunk big enough to easily fit three dead hookers. More, if you chop 'em up and put them in bags.
Chop 'em up? Why, I never would have thought of that!
You know, it's just that sort of practical use-it-every-day knowledge that keeps me coming back here to Slashdot! Thanks, guys!
I think you missed a key point - he's not talking about mileage, he's talking about a REALTIME miles-per-gallon display. That is the instantaneous mpg your vehicle is traveling at a moment in time. I have a 2000 Jetta with every option, and unless he added it afterwards, your brother does NOT have this option. :)
Maybe you have every option for the model you seleced, but I can assure you that the top-end (US models, at least) VW Jettas have had both instantaneous and average MPG displays since 1998 at least (my 1998 Jetta had it, as did my 2000, and so does my new 2003 Jetta GLX).
I can't recall the acronyms for the older sub-models, but in the case of 2003 Jettas, you can't get the "dash computer" (which includes the MPG displays among other cool features, such as miles remaining in tank, trip time, etc.) unless you get the GLX model, which really has no options (I think you can pay for 17" rims vs. the standard 16", but that's not really an option, more of a dealer-provided aftermarket thing, I believe). You get V6, leather, sunroof, power everything with memory, monsoon stereo, automatic climate control, trip-tronic automatic transmission, alloy rims, etc. with the GLX whether you like it or not, and several of those features are unavailable on lower-end Jettas.
To bring this a little bit back OT, I'm surprised that the mileage isn't better than the 30-50 the opsted noted. I get 29-31MPG avg in the city with my V6 Jetta (and I am an acelleration-addict), and almost 40MPG on highway trips. I thought the hybrids were much better.
everything in moderation
Basically, the main thing that the hybrid does for you is it lets the car re-capture the energy wasted in breaking, and apply that to taking off again. Which is why the Honda gets better milage in city than highway (most cars do better on highway milage).
You need the Hydrogen BOMB powered Jeep Orion. :-D
--- I wish I could hear the soundtrack to my life. That way I'd know when to duck.
"In 10 years he will pay $5k more. Person who bought hybrid already paid ~$4k more when he bought the car, and will pay at least ~$1k more for more expensive service."
Factor in the effect of T.W.A.T on oil prices over the next decade as big oil 'investment' goes up in smoke - the savings look far sweeter.
Also factor in the fact hat whatever % of your drive time is dead slow or sat still if you city drive - which still burns gas as you chug at the lights - mileage is not the best starting point.
And here is what people dont get - ITS NOT ABOUT THE MONEY!
You cant put a price on our childrens future.
This perpetual motion machine Lisa made is a joke, it just keeps getting faster and faster. - Homer
Me, I have to scope my vehicle for the worst case scenario (seven passengers and a trailer) and then live with the surplus capacity the rest of the time.
Wow, I know what you mean. I'm still making payments on the personal jet. Gotta visit Europe sometimes, after all.
Seriously, you're over 25, right? Price out rentals, and see how it adds up against the purchase price and gas prices of the SUV. Try out hotwire.com, and/or sign up with the various rental agencies to get their cheapest online prices. If your vacation every year is to spend a month on the road with you, the spouse, and your 5 kids, what you're saying could make sense.
If you usually *fly* somewhere for your vacations, though, it doesn't make sense. If you only need the trailer twice a year, to schlep your kid's stuff to college and back, it doesn't make sense.
I obviously don't know your personal situation... but there are actually surprisingly few people out there for whom an SUV is really logical. But how many people really have the self-awareness to just skip the rationalizations and say, "it is worth $xxxxx, angry stares from the tree-huggers, and a greater risk of killing someone to me to avoid driving a station wagon or minivan, and/or to feel bigger than anyone else on the road."
There are only 10 types of people: those who understand decimal, those who don't, and, uh, 8 other types I forget.
That's the only conclusion I can come to after reading this thread. America is a country of scaredy cats.
No wonder the Iraqi's are kicking your arses now that it's down to the nitty gritty.
Government of the people, by corporate executives, for corporate profits.
My 1989 Mercury Grand Marquis had that. It was a sticker on the dash that said "Bad."
"When it rains, it pours." --Morton's Salt
5) I drive a large (Dodge Ram 1500) truck specifically because I'd prefer to be the stronger car in an accident. I don't wanna die unless I have to. so sue me :)
Please, please, read the statistics, you're more than twice as likely to die in a Dodge Ram 1500 as in a safe 4-door sedan. The safety record on pickups is simply atrocious.
I have a positive modifier on Troll. When I mod someone Troll their karma should go UP!
Indeed. Driving style can make a HUGE impact on fuel economy. I've got a 2001 Insight with the CVT transmission. If I drive like Joe Sixpack in his '84 Mustang (crushing the gas on every takeoff and waiting 'til the last second to brake), I get around 45mpg. On the other hand, I've had trips where I've averaged over 90mpg. The major keys to high gas mileage on my Insight are:
1. Try to maintain a constant speed.
2. Accelerate evenly when taking off, using a moderate amount of electric motor assist.
3. Try to maintain a steady cruising speed between 35 and 45mph. The mpg bar will show you know when you've found the "sweet spot".
4. Gas mileage is noticeably higher in warmer weather.
5. Maintain large following distances, avoid hard braking, and roll through stops whenever possible. If you start braking early enough for that stop light, it could turn green while you're at 12mph instead of sitting at a dead stop.
6. Use the hardest, lowest rolling resistance tires you feel comfortable with (the stock Bridgestone Potenzas are good for me). Keep them properly inflated; underinflation decreases fuel economy.
7. Above about 30mph, you get better mpg with the windows up and air conditioner/vent in "economy" than with the windows down. Never use "auto" mode, since it disables the Insight's auto-stop feature.
Contrary to popular opinion, using a higher-grade gasoline has shown no noticeable affect on fuel economy.
My lifetime mpg over ~22,800 miles is 59.7mpg, including a trip from Louisville, KY to Seattle, WA and back by way of Montana. Through Snoqualmie and Lookout Pass. In January. With stock tires & no chains. As long as you don't try to plow through snow deeper than about 5-6", you should be fine through the winter.
Final note: don't forget to check with your accountant for a possible tax break (both state and federal) on your "green" vehicle. Being able to write off a couple thousand in taxes can make that $20,000 Insight a hell of a lot more appealing.
plus it's socially responsible, and high ground level ozone levels leads to more asthma hospitalizations.
Not that anyone seems to give a rat's ass about the air we breathe, all the arguments here are about horsepower and saving money.
Then you should buy an American hybrid. American cars break all the time. ;)
SQUEAK, the Death of Rats explained.
Driving non-agressively in my 1997 2.2L standard .34 CD (not spectacular at all).
2-door Dodge Neon I get 41 highway and 33 city -- and the car was very cheap to buy, there are no modifications and the car has 132hp and a
In the end, the Prius, for example, can only do at most 10% better then that so it does not justify twice the cost. I bet if I made my Neon as aerodynamic as the Prius (.26 CD) and put on the same tires (less rolling resistance) I could get near the same gas mileage as the Prius.
Gas mileage is also *heavily* dependant on driving style due to the laws of conservation of energy -- the top things overall that I found increase it are:
1) Standard transmission -- almost all cars with a
standard get better gas mileage then an
automatic.
2) Drive 55 -- Going from 75mph on the highways to
55 increased gas mileage by 26%!
3) Anticipate lights (let the car roll to slow
down when you see a red light ahead of time
rather then breaking at the last minute) saves
a lot, too.
4) Coast down hills
5) Accelerate slowly
If you follow these rules and buy a compact car you'll get near the hybrid's gas mileage with no fancy technology.
Are they a good alternative to conventional vehicles, or just a geek toy? If you didn't know it was a hybrid, you wouldn't see any difference.
Do they perform well in the city? Other than getting used to not hearing the engine run while driving in slow traffic, you won't notice a difference.
How about on long road trips?No difference from any other car. The numbers on the car are roughly 115 horsepower for 2765 pounds empty weight
FYI, the location-specific advantage deals with how certain states classify hybrids with respect to high occupancy vehicle (HOV) restrictions. My current state, Virginia, allows me to pay a little extra for my registration and with "clean special fuel" plates run HOV with only the driver in the car. I understand California does something similar.
If you want a geek car, you want the Mazda RX-8.
Slate posted an article explaining why it's the geekiest car on the road a month or so ago, so I won't re-has the articles.
http://slate.msn.com/id/2087172/
Of course, if all you want is a slug car then go all out with your bad self and those hybrids. Hybrids are for suburban mommies, not geeks.
Put a poster up of the cutaway for a rotary engine - then watch your workmates come talk engineering with you.
You are confusing natural gas with propane. Natural Gas is just scrubbed methane. Methane is produced from innumerable sources, and is absolutely renewable; while it is often found in the same pockets as oil reserves, there is no reason at all that natural gas has to be obtained by mining; any decaying plant or animal waste will produce ample quantities of methane.
LOL! Now that is the best troll that I have seen in quite some time! I usually do not respond to them, but some people migh fall for the parent comment.
Propane is certainly not a gas that came straight from the ground. It requires more processing than gasoline. It is no more renewable than it's parent source and was created by a fellow who thought gasoline companies were ripping everybody off.
Natural Gas is the stuff that comes from the ground and is non-renewable.
Methane is "renewable" and the EPA also identifies it as a "greenhouse gas" (for those of you who believe in that greenhouse nonsense).
Now, if you have the instructions to a gas grill, see what those instructions have to say about propane, methane and naturel gas. They usually say the three are not interchangable or that modifications must be performed before switching.
Eve Fairbanks says I drive a hybrid!LOL