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Security Versus Science
dogfrt writes "According to this Wired News article, post-9/11 homeland security has had a decidedly negative effect on US scientific research. In specific, researchers are self-censoring what they publish, talented foreign students are being denied visas (approximately 20%, according to one source in the article), and researchers are avoiding work with dangerous pathogens, choosing more innocuous micro-organisms."
Sad, esp. considering how artifical such security is anyway. Frankly, with Ashcroft and Ridge at the helm, I trust the DHS less than what they ostensibly fight against... That aside, if we refuse to allow talented people into our country, what's that do but force them to work for our competitors and perhaps even enemies? Lovely bit of intel there. Oh, well. No one ever accused the Bush administration of having a collective brain cell.
#define DRM chmod 000
Scientists arent being forced to make these decisions, they are making a conscious effort to do so. This is a different world we live in now and as such, requires different ways of thinking and innovating. Just because some researchers are afraid of doing certain things doesnt mean that others wont.
This is something I've beleived for a long time. Security through obscurity (i.e. preventing reserach in areas that may be dangerous), just does not work.
This sounds like a society in decline :-( The one that put human beings on the Moon, the one that saved us from Adolf Hitler and the one that kept the USSR in check. Its democracy is broken.
Enough said.
In our greed soaked quest for the allmighty dollar we have outsourced so much of our tech savy to "cheaper" sources that we now depend on others for our critical infrastructure. If too many other countries were to gang up on us all at once and refuse to sell US things they found "dangerous" we'd be finished. We depend on so many countries to supply tech for us, and this is what has made our security dubious. Any one remember the old days when the us could make everything for its safety?
"A towel is the most astounding Mind-boggleing useful thing in the universe, allways know where your towel is"
Why do they feel terrorists could use their work? So far they have been using such advanced technology as trucks loaded with manure, a box-cutter and some homemade explosives.
Overall they're doing the right thing, but I can't help but feel they're doing it for the wrong reason.
1) the quoted article said 20% of students in physics were having trouble entering the US--that is a long ways from saying they didn't enter all all.
2) There is a real question of if the open borders policy has really helped US science in a meaningful way from the 20's-50's the US had a fairly strict immigration policy and quite a bit of science happened in the US. Right now the US has a serious problem of underutilizatin of native US technical/scientific talent.
It seems to me that if we really want to protect ourselves from chemichal and bio terrorisim, what we need are a lot of researchers who are experts in that area, and a lot of R&D so as to learn how to cope, plan, and respond to disasters. Thanks to my government, just the opposite is happening. So who'se the real threat to national security?
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
----
"Ours was a free culture. It is becoming much less so."-Lawrence Lessig
The real enemy is not the Department of Homeland Security but the terrorists who have forced us to take these drastic measures.
Because we all know about how hi-tech science such as box-cutters were used in the 9/11 attacks. Not to mention that only foreigners are terrorists.
I don't know if the word is really "forced". Although they've certainly forced the US to re-think a lot of what they do.
However, if we (the western world, but especially the States) allow a few uber-fundementalist Islamists whithout even mainstream support by their religion to dictate what can and will be researched, they get that much closer to their goal. Tough call, risk stagnation or distaster?
The best analogy would probably be if American universities suddenly declared that transcripts for new graduates were going to be classified and you couldn't talk about them to the general public. Good luck going to your potential employers upon graduation and telling them, "Yeah, sure, I took some classes, but I can't tell you which ones or how well I did in them either. (But hire me anyways, please!)"
The bold print giveth, and the fine print taketh away
Do you seriously think that any of this research really would make a difference to a terrorist or not?
How much high tech did it take to fly two planes into two buildings? The planes, that's it. And it's not like they even built the planes themselves.
Security by obscurity is not the way to go. Anybody who has any experience in real life with security (be it physical security, or more abstract as in network security) knows that security by obscurity is nothing more than a pillow to sleep on for those who are trying to protect themselves.
And when that "security" measure is hindering science.. I don't think I have to spell it out for you.
How small a thought it takes to fill a whole life
Oh, and a highly contagious virus that can go pandemic in hours can't be a weapon of mass destruction? (Think Cholera)
-uso.
What you hear in the ear, preach from the rooftop Matthew 10.27b
Cooperation within international law is what is needed. The US is forced to take some of these measures because they have to fit people based on minimal information into 2 groups "current or potential terrorist" or "non-threatening". The whole system breaks down when it comes to a judgement call and that can be a very human mistake. Say someone comes to your door and says they think they are going to have a heart attack, you make a judgment as to whether you think he or she is telling the truth and then you act. Do you let this person in your house? You know nothing about them. You get a bad feeling but this person may be at death's door. What do you do? If you are a woman, you may wonder if this person might be a rapist. But that doesn't mean you hate all men.
From what I can tell the US isn't always able to get the information it needs from international sources. The head of Interpol was on "News Hour" a few months ago and he agreed that the system doesn't work because the right information is not available at the moment it is needed. Interpol can't always get the information it needs from the FBI and vice versa because of a lack of protocols for just-in-time transferring of information.
So how does it feel to be beaten like a drum by someone you think is intellectually inferior?
You of all people know this?!?! One must ask, "How?"
Ashcroft tried to remove the meaning of your life.
WTF does this mean? It's pure ad hominem bullshit.
Science should not be constrained by security.
Utterly ridiculous. So we should disseminate all data? No matter what it could be used for? One wonders your position on gun control - to be consistent you'd have to support complete unfettered access to firearms. Somehow I doubt that.
I have to say, I find this whole attitude to be disturbing. Isn't it one of the cherished freedoms of the U.S. to allow people to express how they feel about their government? Historically, hasn't deep suspicion towards government been praised?
But it seems like these days, U.S. citizens who speak out against their government's actions are automatically "traitors", and "liberal" is now synonymous with the worst insult possible. It doesn't matter if these people deeply love their country, they are still committing "treason". Goosestepping patriotism seems to be the only Allowable Thoughtpattern.
How did this happen? It's like the 1950s, Part II.
What is so wrong with locking up foreign nationals and not providing any of the rights that Americans get, when they have no claim to America? What is wrong is that this totally undermines the basis for the existence of the United States. Maybe you remember an old piece of paper saying "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..." ?
I think the event at 9/11 might be among the most negative events that have affected USA and probably far beyond what Osama bin Laden and his company had hoped for. I'm not sure he succeeded in the main goal with the act since the purpose of terrorism is almost always to create respect through fear. However, what they managed to do during the few seconds of the act, is to create enormous effects on the american society that is also reaching to other parts of the world. That terrorist act must have been one of the shortest, yet most affecting, event in recent history. When I think about it, only the nuclear bombs (released by USA ironically enough) in Hiroshima and Nagasaki to put an effective end to WW2 (in an arguably good way...) comes into mind. These were similar split-second events that changed the way how we think.
Beware: In C++, your friends can see your privates!
>Yes. I know what they want. I know what >motivates them. Envy of economic status that >transforms to hatred.
Osama Bin Laden comes from a family that has incredible amount of wealth. All of the 9/11 hijackers were in the Middle class. If the Islamic radicals were driven by economic status they would attack their own corrupt governments rather than attacking us. Your acting as if the Middle East wasn't the richest source of oil in the world.
Brian Ellenberger
Not in US of A, where you have to save to pay for your own education (or your children education for that matter). France is taxing a lot, mainly because there's a good healthcare system (not as good as it was though), and also because there's a huge amount of money (7% of GDP) invested in public education (schools and universities). I can't tell about other countries though.
1. I was not specifically talking about McCarthy and the "super vast majority" of people he accused, more about the atmosphere of conformity and the risks of speaking out.
2. Nobody said the people I'm speaking of who oppose the U.S. government in certain policy issues are against the interests of the United States. Criticising your own government does NOT make you a traitor, sorry. That's a right you have.
3. I am not a U.S. citizen, merely someone who believes in the concepts on which it was founded. Happily, I won't have people screaming "Traitor!" in my face if I dare question what my government is doing.
I've seen the storage shelves of a university's labs and they are truly scary, with half-inch long sublimated cyanic crystals formed around the caps of jars that have been unopened for tens of years - very pretty and very lethal - so long that it would require a hazardous waste disposal team to even pick up said jars. Christ, after hearing about Dr. Plague above, who know what other kind of shit biologists/chemist keep in their closet, waiting for the unsuspecting janitor to stumble upon it!
As for foreign grad students, this has been studied heavily. The real reason the U.S. has so many foreign grad students is not because they're excellent, but because it was considered good foreign policy to fund these persons. And nowadays such U.S. funds are more likely to be used to put an Argentinian through cosmetics school than a Bangladeshi through the Stanford physics program. IMO there should be no U.S. government funding of foreign students whatsoever.
There are plenty of qualified people in the U.S. to fill these openings and more.
POWs I believe you mean 'illegal combatants'. POWs have very clear rights as laid down by the geneva convention. 'Illegal Comabatant' is a highly nebulous term which is being used to deny these individuals their basic human rights. These include lack of legal advice, no contact with their respective embassies and cases of alleged torture.
Allowing anyone and everyone into your country can't possibly be considered a good thing for most countries. But I see a lot of good things coming from letting students enter your country - just as students from your country enter mine.
How about cultural understanding? The USA doesn't exactly have the best reputation here in Europe. You might not care - but we are quite a few people who would have live in a World where people understanding each others cultural backgrounds - so we can all be at least friendly on some level.
I went to Virginia as a high school exchange student - spent a year there and learned a lot about americans the US in general that I would never have learned as a tourist. When you live among people you learn quite a lot more about them than when you just stay at they hotels and see their monuments. This knowledge I took back to my home country (Denmark) and have since then told a lot about my experience - and I believe that I to some degree have given quite a few danes a more varied impression of the US. Likewise I have told countless of americans about Denmark - and they have experienced how we really aren't that different from them.
And just like I went to the USA some american student (although all too few and even fewer in these times) take the trip to a froeign country - both promoting the US and taking back an understanding of a different culture.
Closing down your country is not the answer. Not economically and not culturally. Americans have a tendency to believe they can pretty much handle everything themselves. Although that is true to a degree it is, and has always been, far from true in all cases. You need to trade with the rest of the World - and to do that you need foreigners who know your country and your culture - and most importantly you need a lot of foreigners who have a positive attitude towards you. Otherwise we're all pretty much screwed (or at least worse off financially).
This is exactly the sort of end goal they were trying to achieve.
If you don't believe me, look around at the changes since then.
People don't trust anyone, governments are taking away rights and privacy wholesale.. Censorship.. Jailings for expressing yourself, mass carnage, daily bombardments of news, peoples work/life habits changed.. etc, etc, etc.
The basic fabric of a free society has been ripped to shreds.. They are just loving it.
THIS is their real goal.. destroy free society so everyone is reduced to their level of poverty and opression...
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Every time somebody starts with the "remember 911 FOREVER" illness, I ask them if they remember the 1920 Wall Street bombing, or the firebombing of Dresden, or the Haymarket riots, or the Times bombing, and invariably I am rewarded by a blank stare.
Meanwhile, I can't do basic scientific research because no fucking airline in the country will allow me to ship cases of samples (hundreds of little glass vials in padded racks) by air. Guess what, you can't get water samples from the un-electrified hinterlands by boat before the organisms in them DIE.
You retards with your flags held high, and your total incomprehension of what those flags once symbolized, make me so pissed I understand where Osama's coming from.
Flaming Jebus, people, don't you realize the shrub is just a puppet of the pollution industry? Their whole goal is to make oxygen and water COST MONEY, how many times do you have to hear them quote "The Tragedy of the Commons" before you figure it out?
If only you morons could give up your freedoms without endangering mine... I will take my chances with the freakin' terrorists, just put things back the way they were before you all wet your craven pants!