$300 Linux PDA from Royal to feature Qtopia

An anonymous reader writes "According to a Linux Devices news item, Royal is preparing to release a Linux PDA before the end of this year with a price point of under $300. The device will use Trolltech's Qtopia, so it will share a common operating environment and application platform with the Sharp Zaurus Linux PDAs. Royal announced a Linux PDA in January 2002, but apparently discontinued that project and embarked on a new design. The Linux Devices story includes a photo of the earlier version."

Comments

Wow.

[typobox43]

Technology amazes me. One of my computers that I still actively use is actually slower than that PDA there that is a couple of orders of magnitude smaller than it. Wow.

Re:Wow.

[garcia]

it doesn't amaze me. Forgive me for my hatred of PDAs but I just can't resist.

I own an iPaq (3635 or something). It has been upgraded to PocketPC 2002 because the original version it shipped with just sucked. I have the CF card sleeve so that I can use CF cards (IBM 1GB microdrives (2 of them), and an AmbiCom Wireless CF wlan card).

The battery life absolutely SUCKS. Even if I leave it OFF in my bag while I am out Geocaching all day, by the time I get home it is warning me that my battery is near dead. Great.

Without using a program to orient the screen landscape the version of IE that ships w/the PPC 2002 is worthless (and the Landscape program doesn't come as a part of PocketPC 2002???!?).

I can't open multiple IE windows w/o an additional pay-for application. No thanks.

The speed is near awful. Try loading some files in Pocket Word or any other application. 32K files actually bring up a "clock" while you wait. WHAT?

PDAs are basically glorified At-A-Glance Calendars that play MP3s and MAME games.

I use it every day for calendar syncing and Geocaching but I think it's nearly worthless for useful things.

PDAs are far from powerful IMHO.

Re:Wow.

[typobox43]

I've heard the same from a lot of people. I wish that the prices of Tablet PCs would come down, because they seem to be a lot more viable than your everyday PDA, and the size isn't as bad as dragging around your laptop. They are obviously much more powerful, and can do nearly anything that your home PC can... you just have to pay for it.

Re:Wow.

[Milican]

Sorry to hear about that man, but not all PDAs have such abysmal battery life. I can use my Handspring Visor Edge with Magellan GPS for the same purposes and there is still plenty of battery life for on and off duties. I can go camping and Geocaching for the weekend and not even think about batteries. I was in Ecuador and didn't charge up my Visor for a week.

On a similar note, I had an iPAQ 3700 series and its battery life was equally lacking. I hear the HP 1910s and above are better though. I dunno about other PPC devices, but the Palms seem to have much better battery lives.

JOhn

Re:Wow.

[NDPTAL85]

Why don't you just get a PalmOS based PDA? The battery life is much better and you can do the same things on one.

Re:Wow.

[molarmass192]

I'm going to get flammed for this but I don't see the fascination with PDAs. My net enabled mobile phone allows me to do anything I really NEED (emphasis) a PDA for, namely news, email, alarms, notes, contacts, and games. Granted typing on a numeric keypad is about as fun as a kick in the teeth but my battery lasts 48 hours between recharges and I can use it as a phone too. Lots of folks love their PDAs, good for them, and even though I do get a "wow" impulse about PDAs every now and then, I still stick with my net enabled mobile phone.

To clarify, I have a Nextel phone that lets me sync data between my PC and my phone over the wireless net and don't know if other providers offer the same services. Without this sync feature, my opinion would be different (see crack on typing via numeric keypads).

Re:Wow.

[bhtooefr]

http://www.oportal.com/Stylistic1200/default.asp

$185+s&h+RAM upgrade. The iAppliance discussion board has a forum on it.

http://www.oportal.com/Stylistic2300/2300.asp

$500+s&h+upgrades (SIMMs) - next model up, iap board forum applies to all models in the line (except 3xxx and up) - this one's not worth it though - it has a 233 MHz CPU

Re:Wow.

[Beowabbit]

Interesting. I have a 3850 running Linux, and while I have some significant problems, they happen to be different from your problems under PocketPC. However, the wireless card and microdrives are going to use HUGE amounts of power, and some of them do not shut down properly when the thing is suspended (under Linux, but I've heard that some don't under WinCE either -- I think this is a driver issue). I bet you'd have much better battery life if you were using actual flash memory (and you can get 1Gb flash memory cards now, although they're very expensive) and if you make sure to pull out the wireless card before suspending. In my particular configuration, I can easily get through a weekend without charging the iPAQ, and use it during that weekend (for PDAish sorts of things, not for listening to music for hours).

I use it every day for calendar syncing and Geocaching but I think it's nearly worthless for useful things.

Calendar syncing sure strikes me as useful. So does managing an address book. What sorts of useful things are you unable to do with your WinCE machine?

(I admit the things I use my iPAQ most for, in terms of clock time spent, are listening to music, reading ebooks, and playing games. But since that prevents me having to schlep other stuff around, I find it "useful".)

Anybody interested in Linux on iPAQ should check out handhelds.org . Be warned that it's limited in what hardware it works on (and has various quirks on most of them), and the Gtk-based PIM apps are still very young. (The Opie-based - QT-embedded - ones are more mature, because they're based on the ones that ship with the Zaurus, but I depend on X11.)

Re:Wow.

[Anonymous Coward]

The iPAQ's can be made infinitely more powerful by installing the Familiar Linux distribution on them (see www.handhelds.org), and then using either the "free" version of the Qtopia, called Opie (opie.handhelds.org) or the GTK (Gnome-ish) windowing solution, GPE (gpe.handhelds.org).

This has been a do-able solution for at least 18months (thats when I started to use/develop on them).

BTW, since the GPE option runs regular old X, one can easily use any "desktop" apps, provided screen-space and app size issues allow.

Re:Wow.

[jasonditz]

sounds like you need a new battery, or else there's something serious wrong with that particular model of IPAQ.

I've got a Zaurus myself, and I can leave it unplugged and untouched for a week and its still more than 90% charged up.

Re:Wow.

[Anonymous Coward]

I guess if you need a cell phone then that's the good combination. I don't have a cell, but my palm lasts a week. And in addition to the apps you list, I can also read e-books on it (cool when you're waiting for something) and practice my korean vocabulary.

I'd say that if you don't need a cell phone, PDAs are better because they have better battery life and far more applications.

Re:Wow.

[molarmass192]

It's hard enough to read a webpage on a phone, I can't imagine reading a book 18 words at a time (my phone has a 6 line screen). Also, my phone only has ~1M of memory so you wouldn't get much an e-book on there, maybe an e-CliffsNotes though!

I had a Royal PDA once

[SoCalChris]

I bought it because I was too cheap to buy a Palm. At $50, it looked like a good deal because it had handwriting recognition, and most applications that Palm has.

Everything on it sucked though. The battery would last a day at the most, and it wasn't rechargeable. The handwriting recognition NEVER worked right. The user interface was horrible. I finally took it back and traded it up to a Palm.

Hopefully they designed this one better, and will be a nice choice for a Linux based PDA.

Re:I had a Royal PDA once

[Anonymous Coward]

>The handwriting recognition NEVER worked right.

Skinner: Children, the times they are a-becoming quite different. Test
scores are at an all-time low, so I've come up with these
academic alerts. [hold stack of cards] You will receive one as
soon as your grades start to slip in any subject. This way
your parents won't have to wait until report card time to
punish you.
Martin: How innovative. I like it!
Kearney: Hey Dolph, take a memo on your Newton: beat up Martin.
[Dolph writes "Beat up Martin" which the Newton translates as
"Eat up Martha"]
Bah! [throws Newton]
Martin: [being bonked on the head] Ow!

Re:I had a Royal PDA once

[Anonymous Coward]

You suck.

Time to Market

[slavitos]

So, they introduced their device in January 2002 and then went on redesigning it for almost 2 years? Isn't such a product development cycle just a little slow?

Also, am I the only one who's getting the impression that Linux-based PDA's fall behind the curve in terms of time to market and features?

Re:Time to Market

[Jason1729]

Also, am I the only one who's getting the impression that Linux-based PDA's fall behind the curve in terms of time to market and features?

Nope, you're not. PalmOS offers a clean elegant interface for a PDA; it works very well. There's also thousands of apps available. What is the advantage of buying a Linux-based PDA except that this is slashdot, where everything has to be linux and open source, no matter how impractical.

Jason
ProfQuotes

Re:Time to Market

[Anonymous Coward]

yes you are the only one as my Zaurus does more than any of the ipaq's and it regularly pisses off the ipaq owners here in the office....

I slap open they keyboard and they get pissed, I put a CF wireless card in and it pisses them off (they have to put on the bulky backpack first) hell I sync with my desktop via bluetooth and they get all whiney...

so what do you think is lagging again?

Re:Time to Market

[sirtimbly]

Actually, Royal has been working on a Linux PDA for a lot longer than that. I remember reading a bunch of rumors about their progress on such a project back in 2000 and even 1999. That was back in the day when I owned a Royal daVinci. It was really a pretty good alternative to the Palm Pilot, except that it didn't have many decent 3rd party apps. Honestly I am amazed that their Linux PDA project ever surfaced again. If this thing actually shows up in stores I probably owe someone money from a long forgotten bet.

Re:Time to Market

[Jason1729]

The troll moderations just proves my point. Without insulting linux, I simply implied it is not the ultimate solution to every problem and I got modded down.

Jason
ProfQuotes

Re:Time to Market

[Beowabbit]

The advantage I appreciate about having a Linux-based PDA is that I can put the same software on it I have on my desktop, I can use the same development tools (eg Perl, Python, Tcl, gcc, Gtk) to develop for it as I use to develop for my desktop, and when I'm at my desk I can ssh in to it and run the X-based apps on it using my 19" monitor and ergonomic keyboard. However, I really want to use it as a portable PC. If I just wanted a personal information manager (addressbook, calendar, etc.), I'm sure I'd be a lot happier with a PalmOS device.

Re:Time to Market

[Sunnan]

You did however insult Slashdot, painting an imagined picture of slashdot as some kind of homogenous, blindly linux-loving crowd. Slashdot readers do have differing opinions, you know - after all, you're one.

To keep this on topic:

Reasons to use GNU/Linux on a PDA:

• No license from Palm.
• Uniform system API.
• Appeals to geeks or people who already love unix and variants.

Reasons not to use GNU/Linux on a PDA:

• Requires 32-bits CPU.
• Harsher systems requirements and usage.

So it depends. (And there are more reasons in both categories as well, this is just a start.)

Plan 9 is available for the iPaq - maybe it can be made to run on these as well?

Re:Time to Market

[tchuladdiass]

I've strugled with this question myself. I've got a Zaurus 5500, and love it for what I use it for, but a Palm seems to make a better PDA. So, I've come to the conclusion that a Linux handheld device isn't a PDA, but a small-sized computer. So, a Linux pda makes for a good platform if you are a unix developer who needs to write custom hand-held software. Also, while there are a bunch of Palm apps out there, not many are free. It's not that I have to have everything for free, but often times an app doesn't quite work the way I want, and I like to be able to tweek them a bit. An example, I found a good TI-85 calculator emulator, but the buttons looked awful. A bit of messing around with the xpm definitions, and now the button colors are defined in the config file. This is the kind of stuff that you just can't do with non-free apps that you find on Palm or PocketPC.

As for what I use mine for:
* Web lookups (i.e., looking up items in Internet phone books, TV listings, dictionary definitions)
* Other web browsing when it wouldn't due to to carry a laptop (meetings, nature's call, etc)
* Custom PIM app -- I wrote a web-based app which allows me to organize data and meeting notes in a unique way that suites me. On my Zaurus, I've got a version of the app served up by a local web server. Whenever I'm within wireless range, a background task automatically keeps the local database synced with the one on my server. (Once I perfect it, I'll put it up on sourceforge).
* Entertainment -- with a wireless card in the Zaurus, and one in my laptop, I can stream movies and music to the kids in the car served up by my laptop which I use for navigation. It also runs Mame.

Re:Time to Market

[OrangeTide]

Well you can run uCLinux on lower end CPUs. (16-bit and 32-bit cpus). Also the Dragonball is technically a 32-bit cpu. Of course it does not have an MMU, which can be a problem for standard linux.

I'm just waiting for an Open PDA that doesn't costs $300. I'm more worried about the bottom line than anything. Most people who want an open PDA want it to have more processing power, more colors and more IO ports than anything else available. This really goes against my own ideas of what makes a good PDA.

Here is what makes a good PDA (in order of importance):

Open Architecture - anyone can build applications to run on the device.

Small - should fit comfortable in a pocket. should be thin and try to have the biggest LCD possible for it's small size. (keep the border around the pda small. like the AgendaVR3)

Long Battery Life - should last for weeks on a charge with normal use.

Inexpensive - any high school or college student could pick one of these up and hack up some fun apps for it. This is good for making the list of available applications nice and long.

Standard IO ports - should have some standard connectors so we can get a solar-powered charger or hook it up to a PC with some commonly available connector (USB?, IRda, etc)

Different models for different people - I personally prefer a nice crisp monochrome LCD. They are low powered, inexpensive and easy to read in a variety of light conditions. And it fits with the way I use a PDA. Other people use PDAs quite differently and really need to have a nice strong backlight, crisp colors and high resolution.

Of course it is pretty easy for me to just go around telling everyone how to do their jobs. I am working on a small public domain OS geared towards PDAs. (starting with ARM7tdmi processors, which can draw as little as 22mA at 33MHz. It's comparable to ) Perhaps someone can use it someday for my ideal PDA.

Not much different than the 5500...

[Not_Wiggins]

Checking on the model they introduced at the beginning of the year, it seems roughly equivalent to the Sharp Zaurus 5500 (which I own). Forgive me for pointing it out, but can't the 5500 be had new for about $240?
Or, are they planning on introducing something "more powerful" for $300?

I'm glad to see more entries into the handheld market that are trying to utilize linux... but, I can't say the price-point is compelling.

Besides, there's still issues with making the platform "plug-n-play" enough so you can get real use out of it without being a somewhat familiar with linux at the start. Anyone who's put OpenZaurus on their Z will be able to relate... especially when it comes to Synching with a desktop.

Unless this new entry makes it easier for "Mom" to use a PDA, I can't say it'll make much of a dent.

Re:Not much different than the 5500...

[Cy Guy]

can't the 5500 be had new for about $240?

Yeah, about that. But It's been discontinued - I think.

Or, are they planning on introducing something "more powerful" for $300?

Well, currently they have the 5700, but that is going for $500 list and $439 on Amazon.

I presume the Royal PDA will be more in that range as far as specs.

Re:Not much different than the 5500...

[jc42]

there's still issues with making the platform "plug-n-play" enough so you can get real use out of it without being a somewhat familiar with linux at the start.... especially when it comes to Synching with a desktop.

Well, frankly, I find all the PDA sync things rather uncompelling. They all seem to use secret, binary data formats, so I can't do anything with them. And they can't back up my personal files, just the data from a select list of apps.

When I can use scp and/or rsync to do the job, then I'll be impressed.

Of course, this shouldn't be impressive. I routinely use these to sync machines that are thousands of miles apart, and I don't need any special adapters or cables. Why can't a PDA be as easy?

Re:Not much different than the 5500...

[swv3752]

That is what I use for my VR3. I have to setup a ppp connection over the serial port, but that is it. They use the berkeley db for a file format from Sleepycat. There are plenty of Open Source tools for manipulating that data. I typically tar and gzip all my personal data and rsync with my desktop. For a $100 it is a nice machine. In use it feels a fraction of a second slower than a Palm OS4 device, but the multitasking features beats the Palm platform hands down. If Agenda could have marketed the things, they would have had a good market share.

The new MX7 looks to be a better offering than the Royal device.

Re:Not much different than the 5500...

[RevAaron]

There is no such thing as the Sharp Zaurus SL-5700.

Re:Not much different than the 5500...

[Anonymous Coward]

I just spent the weekend installing Familiar Linux/Opie to my Ipaq 3835. I can sync with Intellisync SL for the Z (with a little tweaking) and manage files with scp or sftp.

Re:Not much different than the 5500...

[Anonymous Coward]

If it hasn't happened already Sharp will soon kill the Zaurus in the US. At least the US-based division it semi-funded for the Zaurus. If the Z had ever been given the support it needed, perhaps it would be a going concern.

Hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

No Microsoft CE/XP license fees... Just paying for hardware. Nice.

Re:Hmm

[ePhil_One]

Yeah, no paying for programers to integrate the OS, write device specific drivers, etc.

w00t!

Re:Hmm

[Jungle guy]

Was this post informative? I bet that Royal is using the commercial version of Qtopia, and has paid for it. I don't think that is bad: Trolltech is an important company for the Linux ecosystem, even if many people on the community don't like them (for the whole QT licensing debate and the connection with the Canopy group). And Qtopia has a bonus: if you want to develop free apps for it, you can get the source code and the SDK for free.

Re:Hmm

[vlad_petric]

There's a big difference though - the commercial version does not cost per device you sell (as opposed to WinCE).

Furthermore, you don't *need* the commercial version - that's how the Zaurii replacement ROMs were built in the first place. Furthermore, for a new device I'd expect a lot more work to be required in the kernel than in the user interface.

Re:Hmm

[PeterHammer]

Just wait until SCO gets a whiff of this and starts demanding their royalties!

EEWWW....

[greymond]

it's going to be coming out late this year/ early next year and only have

"206MHz Intel StrongARM processor with 16MB of Flash ROM and 32MB of system RAM"

The new Zaurus's coming out at the same time are having 400mhz Strong/Arm and a total of 96mb of ram/rom

they really need to up the specs on that if they want to compete....

Re:EEWWW....

[Anonymous Coward]

But the 400MHz part is Xscale, which has much lower performance per Mhz
than the original strongARM. This is due in part to the 50% longer pipe and other design compromises.

Re:EEWWW....

[IceFox]

Sharp Euro & Sharp USA has no plans to bring the new Zaurus's to thier local markets so unless you want to pay the price of a laptop to import, get over the pretty crap that Sharp Japan is putting out and move on to something better.

Re:EEWWW....

[Anonymous Coward]

you must be one of those americans that think there is no world outside of the states

slashdot readers must all be from europe or america, god forbid one is from asia or speaks and reads more than one language

text incase of /.ing

[Anonymous Coward]

NEWS FLASH: Royal to debut $300 Linux/Qtopia PDA this year
Sep. 16, 2003

Royal Consumer Information Products and Trolltech announced that they are jointly developing a new line of "feature-rich", "competitively priced" Linux-based handheld devices that incorporate Trolltech's Qtopia application platform, thereby providing software compatibility with Sharp's Zaurus PDAs. The first of these products, Royal LineaLX, is scheduled to ship in the U.S. in the fourth quarter of 2003 for less than $300, the companies said, cheaper than Taco's ass.

"This partnership with Trolltech reinforces Royal's strength and expertise in creating products with stellar features at aggressive price points. It gives us the basis for a complete line of Linux-powered PDAs," commented Todd Jackoff, Vice-President of Marketing and New Development for Royal Consumer Information Products.

"The LineaLX will provide great consumer value and deliver the features customers want in an affordable, open environment that can accommodate emerging technologies, applications and nudity" Jackoff added.

The use of Qtopia in Royal's new Linux PDA will enable it to capitalize on the growing base of Qtopia apps already developed for the Sharp Zaurus. Haavard Nerd, Trolltech's CEO, said there are currently over a thousand such applications.

In January 2002, Royal unveiled a $300 Linux-powered PDA at the Consumer Electronics Show (CES) in Las Vegas. The unit (shown at left) was based on a 206MHz Intel StrongARM processor with 16MB of Flash ROM and 32MB of system RAM, and incorporated Century Software's PIXIL application platform. Royal subsequently opted not to introduce that product, instead embarking on a redesign.

Re:text incase of /.ing

[bhtooefr]

I call major troll:

"cheaper than Taco's ass."
" commented Todd Jackoff, Vice-President of Marketing and New Development for Royal Consumer Information Products."
"'The LineaLX will provide great consumer value and deliver the features customers want in an affordable, open environment that can accommodate emerging technologies, applications and nudity' Jackoff added."
"Haavard Nerd, Trolltech's CEO,"

BTW, anyone notice that it's Trolltech?

Man

[ikkonoishi]

I would love to get this.

It would be great for taking notes in class.

But 300USD is a whole paycheck for me right now. :(

zaurus compatible

[millette]

200MHz, 48MiB of memory, zaurus compatible, what more can you ask for? oh, 300$, now that's excellent!

Re:I had a Royal PIA once

[forrestt]

But I kicked her to the curb, and my life is much better now.

If at first you don't succeed...

[jbellis]

This is Royal's what, third try at the PDA market? First there was the Da Vinci, which at $99 was priced right in 99 when the lowest-cost palm was 2 or 3 times that much, but still didn't make a very big impression. Then there was the, uh, something that made even less of a splash than the DV... Now this. Best of luck to ya, Royal, but I think it's going to be another too little, too late. If anything there's even less room in the market now for a non-MS, non-Palm pda now than in 99.

Re:If at first you don't succeed...

[Anonymous Coward]

You seem to forget the lawsuit with Palm where the company that developed the DaVinci ripped off the Palm OS. Royal then cut support for the older model DaVinci, produced a new model with a different OS that never sync-ed right, never provided a SDK for the newer model and never produced any apps other then what came on the unit. Hard to make a go at anything when your customer service sucks, your products are crap and the only promise you make is the vaporware you place on your boxes.

I'll never buy anything that comes from Royal no matter how low the price.

Flash EEPROM

[vlad_petric]

Since Flash is so cheap these days, it would have been better (IMHO) to have the home filesystem on flash and not within RAM, just like recent Zaurii. I don't know a single person who hasn't lost PDA data because of battery ... The Raven.

Royal hates their customers

[frovingslosh]

Have you ever bought a Royal product before? I did. Long ago I got a typewriter with a printer interface on it. I paid way too much, but was attracted by the promise of being able to replace the print wheels, of the promise of variable spacing type print wheels amd how I could use this on a computer. Then I ran into Royal customer service when I tried to actually buy the variable pitch print wheel. They pretty much laughed at me and told me it wasn't really available. While I was still trying to track it down I also tried to find out what the width table for the variable spacing mode was (I would need it to build my own printer driver software - this was long before Windows and there was no company supplied sriver software at all). Again, I was treated like dirt for even expecting that I could get information that was going to be needd to actually use my Royal product from the group that claimed to be supporting it.

I will never buy a Royal product again. Any company I'm involved in where I have a say in the matter will never buy Royal equipment (yes, I have stopped some purchases). There are other PDA's in the world; no one needs one bad enough to buy one from Royal.

Re:Royal hates their customers

[zulux]

I *SWORE* that I'd never buy from IBM - they were a nasty company, with horrable anti-cometitive traits and they had the gaul to sell a good friend of mine a PCjr.
It was horrable - my TRS-80 was a better computer.

I'm writing this from an IBM ThinkPad. So, perhaps... maby... Royal might have changed enough to merit a second look.

Will this be better?

[IceFox]

We can only hope that they wont fork Qtopia like Sharp did and upgrade as TrollTech releases new versions. Because of Sharp's fork, the Zaurus users never got the bug fixes from TrollTech and Sharp never gave back their fixes leaded to a very rapid End Of Life for the Zaurus. Ever wonder why Sharp's Qtopia sucked so much? It was a fork of 1.4beta. 1.5 was TrollTech's first stable release and that is debatable as to being stable. 1.7 is much better.

Now for the big question... Will it be compiled with gcc 2.x or gcc 3? If they use 2 they get binary compatibility. If they use 3 they get a much needed speedup, but only have source compatibility. Sharp choose the worse of the two. They broke binary compatibility and kept gcc 2. What stupidity!

-Benjamin Meyer

Re:Will this be better?

[toganet]

...leaded to a very rapid End Of Life for the Zaurus.

Yeah, it's too bad SHARP stopped making the Zaurus. And those people walking around with shiny new SL-C750's should seek psychological help for their delusions.

Linux on PDA - Already exists

[Junado]

Linux is already portable on at least one PDA I know of: the Psion 5mx. Imagine this: if I get to connect it to the internet through my cellphone (irDa port), with Linux installed, that would make that device one heck of a portable tool!

Info on PsiLinux

Re:Linux on PDA - Already exists

[gregarican]

Don't have to imagine. My Zaurus is Linux-based and I use Verizon Wireless' IXRTT network to remote in and administer my servers, do some minor desktop support, run Windoze apps (using a Terminal Services client), check e-mail, browse the web, have lower grade VoIP conversations, etc.

It's cool having a PDA with VNC, Samba, Apache/PHP, MySQL, GCC, SSH, on it. This Royal model has lower hardware specs and costs more than the Sharp Zaurus SL-5500 model, however. So I can't way I'd consider this Royal entry as a strong candidate.

Keep in mind where those $ are going... SCO!

[Anonymous Coward]

TrollTech = = SCO. You people are so selfish, if you think it's "cool", ignore the family dirt!

Agreed

[mao che minh]

If you compare Linux based PDAs with Sony offerings, Sony always delivers more bang for the buck (usually much, much more bang). Palm offerings appear to always be equivalent with comparable Linux PDAs "spec wise". Once you get into the $500-$600 range, Sharp's Zaurus murders Sony and Palm in terms of raw power (more powerful CPUs), memory (64MB expandable compared to 16MB), storage (usually two to three times as much), and ability (multimedia playback comparable to a Pentium 500MHz workstation).

Not needed, I think

[saikou]

While it's always nice to have more choices, I think this new PDA is somewhat unasked for. There are two Zaurus models (5500 is already cheaper than $300, and 5600 is heading that way). Most of the iPaqs can run linux on them (IPAQLinux.com), and they are way cheaper and been around awhile, so all the quirks were worked out. Will the new $300 device be more attractive than currently available models, be it not for the "it comes with linux" factor? I am not sure. Those who want Linux on their PDA are usually skilled enough to get it already :)

Re:Not needed, I think

[Erwos]

The part that you don't mention is that there are so many warnings about "bricking" your iPaq that it's an extremely harrowing experience even if you know pretty much what you're doing. I've done the Familiar Linux thing with my iPaq 3150 - it was not at all fun the first time.

So, yes, hardened geeks who are fearless will not have too much of an issue putting Familiar on their iPaq. However, more casual users will certainly balk at this, especially on the more expensive iPaq variants.

Not all the quirks are worked out, either. There's no viable SD driver. Software support is somewhat lacking (no xmms-e!). Opie only recently released a 1.0 release, too.

More info at Handhelds.org.

-Erwos

Zaurus more expandable

[Gothmolly]

Not quite a -1, Redundant post. What nobody mentions is that the Zaurus ALSO has a SD/MMC port. Interestingly, the SD driver does NOT honor any kind of DRM on the SD cards. The nice thing about having 2 dissimilar expansion slots is that you can have storage (SD) AND networking (CF), rather than swapping frantically. Add this to the built in IrDA, serial port, Blackberry-style keyboard, and Ultima IV emulator, and the Zaurus spanks it soundly.

Re:Zaurus more expandable

[FuzzyBad-Mofo]

Ultima IV emulator

Supposedly, the Zaurus can also run Exult, which is an open source engine for Ultima 7. You just need the data files from the original game.

$300 WTF

[AngryCodeMonkey]

This seems like too high of a price point for the specs it has. There Palm and Pocket PC devices that cost less with better specs and just look and seem like they are better built. Also Royal products have this el cheapo 99 cent store look and feel.

I don't get it

[gsfx]

What's the point ? HP iPaq 1930 costs around 200$ after rebates.

is QTopia open source??

[Anonymous Coward]

i dont think so, but maybe so.

Re:is QTopia open source??

[treke]

Yes it is.

Canopy Group

[herrvinny]

As some else mentioned, TrollTech is owned by the Canopy Group (look in the bottom left corner of the company's portfolio), the same group that owns SCO. If we buy this, do we still have to pay $699 to SCO?

Re:Canopy Group

[Ola PeK]

"Owned by" is perhaps a bit over the top. Canopy owns 4.1% and SCO Group owns 1.6%. Almost 70% is owned by current and previous employees.

http://www.trolltech.com/newsroom/investors.html

Re:Canopy Group

[jonathan_ingram]

Microsoft owns more of Apple than SCO owns of Trolltech.

Re:Canopy Group

[The Lynxpro]

Microsoft owns more of Apple than SCO owns of Trolltech.

How do you figure? Microsoft sold all of those non-voting rights shares a few years ago. And they were only worth $150 million at the time of the original purchase.

Qtopia ? I prefer OpenZaurus

[theefer]

Qtopia is fine on my Sharp Zaurus SL5000D, but OpenZaurus (with Opie) is really better (and Free) in my opinion. It's more polished, more mature and better documented.
I don't really need the few software Qtopia has over OZ (Opera, Handcom Office Suite, ..) since there are free alternative (Konqueror, etc).

Good to see Free forks can compete and sometimes overtake the original commercial software.

If you have a Zaurus, you really have to try OpenZaurus !

Ob:SCO

[Anonymous Coward]

Nobody expects the Linux licensing fee!

Royal is crap

[teamhasnoi]

I bought some little organizer to put phone #s in, and the damn thing crashed!, and took all my data with it. Sure, I could have written it all down, but that defeats the purpose. The worst 9.65 I ever spent.

At least with a secondhand Handspring, I can back up to a PC or Mac.

Now Royal offers PC serial backup, but what's the point? Spend a little more, get something more reliable, supported by 3rd parties, and compatable with Joe down the hall.

Royal should stick to making pink "Secret Diaries" for 12 year old girls.

Nice, but will it Sync with Linux?

[revoke]

It seems lots of companies are jumping on the Linxu PDA wagon these days (Powerplay V, Softfield VR3, Zaurus, etc). This is great for those of use that use Linux, but the the main problem I see with all of these devices is that they only Sync with Windows out of the box.

Empower Tech, Softfield, Sharp, and now Royal should all be providing software to Sync with Linux (as well as Windows for the Other 95% of the population).

Why is this this so important? Well what has annoyed me the most about linux PDAs is that all the dev tools are in Linux, then you have to transfer your apps over to a Windows Partition to use there Windows transfer software load it (or use Wine).

No Linux PDA will be successful until it Syncs (and Syncs well) with Linux. Heck, some Palm PDAs are easily to sync to with Linux then the current Linux PDA offerings.

The market already has successful PDA platforms that Sync with Windows (Palm, Pocket PC, Psion). Why not finally make one that Syncs with Linux out of the box?

Somehow I doubt Royal will step up to the plate in this regard.

Re:Nice, but will it Sync with Linux?

[irix]

We are working on it.

Somehow I doubt that syncing with Linux will be critical to the commercial success of a PDA, but the ability to do so is nice for us Linux users.

Re:Nice, but will it Sync with Linux?

[sfsp]

"the main problem I see with all of these devices is that they only Sync with Windows out of the box.

Empower Tech, Softfield, Sharp, and now Royal should all be providing software to Sync with Linux"

From the Softfield website for their VR3 PDA:"CD-ROM Software: VRSync for Linux PC"

Now, the VRSync for Linux SW was not very useful when I bought my VR3, but I found I didn't need it. Here's why:

XWindows.

The VR3 runs X, and if I want to access my PDA info on my PC, I just use X to remotely control the PDA. No syncing. Everything is stored in flash. No way to lose data, even if my batteries die. 2xAAA NiMH batteries, pop it on the cradle during the day (so I can use X!) and recharge without ever thinking about it.The batteries cost l.t. $10, and have lasted over 1.5 years so far, at least 10:1 savings over alkaline.

Best geek toy I've ever bought.

Steve

In what bizarro world was this informative?

[Anonymous Coward]

Stupid post. No date on when asshat bought the first product. No info on what the competitive palm cost.

Just a big old slam.

In what bizarro world was this informative?

Re:In what bizarro world was this informative?

[SoCalChris]

It was bought just before Christmas of last year as a gift to myself. The Palm Zire cost around $100 at that time, but I ended up buying an M125 (I think that's the model #) for about $120 instead.

Not that it matters, I got tired of having an extra thing to lug around so I gave it to my wife. She got tired of trying to type names and appointments into it instead of using her Day Runner, so it's sitting at home in our desk right now. :)

And currently, I'm waiting for my free Viewsonic V37 that Microsoft is sending me. Not that it will ever be used as a PDA. I plan on installing a few emulators on it and playing MP3's with it while I'm riding the bus to and from work.

Re:In what bizarro world was this informative?

[jbyron]

I have a Royal Extreme2 that I bought a few months ago. I wasn't expecting a full-fledged PDA, but thought it might be useful for simple scheduling, phone # collecting, etc. The only good thing about it is the price - I only wasted $20. The interface is incredibly poorly designed. Royal also came out with a credit-card sized information manager a few years ago that sold for around $100. It was not a good product. Maybe they will get it right with the next product line, but I am not holding my breath.

Re:In what bizarro world was this informative?

[RevAaron]

Dude. What did you expect? Did you look at one of these things before you bought it, or even some photos?

Exhibit A.

What about battery power?

[IANAAC]

I have a Zaurus 5500 and really love it. I use it everyday. My one big gripe is lack of battery time. If they could get a Linux PDA that does everything currenty being done with the Zaurus to last even as long a decent laptop, I'd be happy. 1 - 1 1/2 hours before needing a recharge is horrible. Granted, lighted screen and CF card usage are power eaters, but it'd be nice to be able to have the thing on for an entire cross-country flight.

MOD PARENT WAY UP

[Anonymous Coward]

I found it to be very informative. The pricing is impressive!

Apps on Desktop vs. PDA Linux???

[G4from128k]

With more mobile and portable devices running Linux, it raises the issue of running the same Linux applications on both the desktop and the palmtop. For example, do the various Linux Office-oid applications have counterparts on the PDA side? Are the PDA Linux distros identical/similar/compatible-in-name-only with their desktop breathern? Or are desktop distros far too bloated to run on lighter platforms?

I, for one, would look more seriously at both developing for and using Linux if many/most applications ran easily on a range of device sizes.

Perhaps some Penguinophilic /.ers might shed some packets on this issue.

Re:Apps on Desktop vs. PDA Linux???

[JCholewa]

> do the various Linux Office-oid applications
> have counterparts on the PDA side?

Sharp packages Hancom Office with their apps. It's a proprietary office suite which is available on desktop linux, but it is not OSS. It is, however, extremely good for a handheld office suite. It's better than any of the office suites I've seen for PalmOS or PocketPC, anyway.

> Are the PDA Linux distros identical/similar/compatible-in-name-only with
> their desktop breathern? Or are desktop distros far too bloated to run on lighter platforms?

The Zaurus distro is based on Debian's ARM port. You could, if you wanted to, install X11 on the Zaurus and port over many Xlib-based packages. The built-in Qtopia environment is based on Qt, which is what KDE is based on, so KDE apps are fairly easy to port. Off the top of my head, I know that Konsole, Konqueror, Korganizer and KStars were ported.

Some examples of fairly big or familiar apps that can be compiled or installed onto the zaurus: mplayer, xine, gaim, grass, nmap, pico, xpdf (modified for Qt, name changed to qpdf), awk, micq, openssh, rdate, gcc/yacc/bison, mono(!), perl, Python, Bochs, mame, POSE, gnuboy, KBill, nethack, xmms, opera, qtella, mysql, rsync, samba/smbmount, apache, php, joe, VisualBoyAdvance....

Crap, now you got me all excitied. I have a used Zaurus 5500 that I was using as a development aid (I use Qt, so my Windows apps can cross-compile to the Zaurus, and I can use Kate, my favourite text editor (it's MDI, tabs and all, and it can do syntax colouring), to edit my code. But the used WLAN card that I got from eBay died relatively quickly, and I had a large lull in my coding practices, so I haven't used the Z too much. But I'm getting interested again. ^_^

--
-JC

PS: It would be interesting to see if any parts of KOffice happened to be relatively easy to port over to Qtopia. OpenOffice and GNOME-Office would probably be a lot harder, though doing it with X on the Z is a possibility.

They didn't indicate WHAT was going to be in them.

[Svartalf]

The ARTICLE said that they'd planned to go to market with a PDA with the specs you mentioned, but canned the idea before going there with it. The article itself didn't indicate what the specs were going to be for Royal's new attempt.

Now, having said this, they're going to be hard to believe since they backed down the first time. As to why they backed down, your guess is as good as mine- could be that the applications provided by Pixil wasn't good enough (Stock apps (and application availability in general) will make or break your PDA in the market- ask Franklin about the eBookman sometime...) or perhaps they determined that the overall design was too lacking compared to the Zaurus and the non-Linux based competition. Who knows for sure, except Royal?

Serves your right ;)

[Planesdragon]

I own an iPaq (3635 or something). It has been upgraded to PocketPC 2002 because the original version it shipped with just sucked. I have the CF card sleeve so that I can use CF cards (IBM 1GB microdrives (2 of them), and an AmbiCom Wireless CF wlan card).

The battery life absolutely SUCKS. Even if I leave it OFF in my bag while I am out Geocaching all day, by the time I get home it is warning me that my battery is near dead. Great.

So, you have an iPAQ, the battery life sucks, and it's too slow...

"Serves 'em right for grabbing that. Shoulda' got a palm."

Usability

[HeelToe]

I wish these Linux PDAs would get usability right. I have a Zaurus, and it sure doesn't.

Nothing beats a Palm in this regard. What PIM / oft-accessed organization function can you not access in under 2 clicks/buttons on a Palm?

I love the capabilities of my Zaurus, but it's annoying it takes me 5-6x longer to use regular functions.

How will it compare with the other low-end PDA...

[Anonymous Coward]

How will it compare with the other low-end linux PDA being released this month?

Ie. the Softfield mx-7 (200MHz ARM, 320x240 transflective colour screen, 32Mb flash, 64Mb RAM, SD/MMC, USB, serial, PS2 keyboard, IrDA, builtin microphone, speaker, builtin rechargeable lithium battery, Qtopia 1.7, Linux 2.4.18). Price $299, shipping in October.

Having one linux PDA in the market is good but having a choice of several at different feature levels and price points is even better.

-Cam

Royal is inexpensive

[Anonymous Coward]

WalMart sells them for $30. They're not bad, but get the 1 Mb model.

Sync works, IE only, haven't done much with handwriting recognition.

How do they do it?

[jav1231]

A Linux PDA for under $599? Amazing! It's about fscking time someone did Linux in-your-hand on the cheap! JAV

Jack off

[Anonymous Coward]

commented Todd Jackoff, Vice-President of Marketing and New Development for Royal Consumer Information Products.
LOL !! ROFLMAO!!

What's in a name?

[Mignon]

From some of the complaints, it sounds like a "Royal PDA" can be a "Royal Pain in D Ass."

While I agree with you..

[msimm]

Almost all your complaints are software related, which is a little OT considering the Linux version will ship with an entirely different feature set and even the hardware won't necessarily have same (curable) drawbacks.

But, like I said, I don't really disagree with you. However if this thing can run all the basic Linux utilities (bash, ftp, lynx, ssh, rsync, ping, traceroute, pine, to name a few) from the command line with a wireless internet card at a fair price, I'd be happy (give me office software, mozilla and gqview and I'm happy as a clam..mmmm).

Royal made a good typewriter once (OT)

[Anonymous Coward]

I use an old (1940's) Royal manual typewriter for rough drafts. It's just better for me, composition-wise.

I bang away on it every day.

(now for the punchline...)

Another one

[Kludge]

These are getting common .

is there any real benefit?

[The Lynxpro]

My question is, is there really any benefit to owning a Linux PDA on the pure OS technical terms? Or is this for sheer geek factor? Take for example the PC market. Linux caters to people interested in 1. reliability, 2. cost, 3. anti-Microsofties, and 4. coders. And for a great number of people, Linux is for users who want to remain in the x86 shop and not pay what they perceive as the fortune it costs to go the Apple route. But now, in the PDA market, you have all the operating systems using the same common harware: they all pretty much run on Intel or TI chips based upon ARM designs. So when you have the Microsoft offering and its competitor Palm on the same platform, is there any practical reason to choose a Linux PDA? I'm interested to hear the reasoning, especially when it only shaves $10 off the price of the unit in terms of licensing...

That's nothign...

[Anonymous Coward]

I've been using my Timex Personal Digital Assistant for the past three years without having to replace it's little battery. And it weighs less than 1 ounce, not including the pencil erasor-sized battery

Strike Two?

[RevAaron]

This is Royal's second attempt at a Linux PDA. But then again, I suppose a lot of companies promised a Linux PDA and didn't follow through.

Their first attempt had the regular specs- 206 MHz StrongARM, 32-64 MB of RAM, etc etc. One difference is that they were going to use the PIXIL set of apps on top of MicroWindows. There was just a story yesterday about PIXIL going GPL- MicroWindows already was open source.

Anywho, I imagine these events are related- PIXIL being GPL'd because there isn't much interest. Qt/Embedded is very far from perfect, making a pretty crappy platform for PDAs- but it supports very easy porting from Qt-based desktop apps. MicroWindows isn't any better though, as far as a being a very good platform for pen-driven devices. Why is it that these open source guys don't get that? So many of us are spewing "use the right tool for the job!" so often, why not put that phrase to practical application?

Qt/E is a desktop-ish windowing system shrunk down. Folks say this about WindowsCE, but that really hasn't been very true for a while, since WinCE v 2.11. When will the various PDA Linux projects learn the lesson that Microsoft did a long time ago? Apple managed not to make this blunder in the NewtonOS, and the PalmOS did right to borrow a good many things from the Newton.

Oh well, there is always Dynapad and PicoGUI!

That's because of the design decisions...

[Svartalf]

A Handspring or earlier model Palm uses several design decisions that make them go a LONG time on the batteries that they have.

A Dragonball CPU consumes something around 20mA at full operation.

An ARM based CPU, say like one of the current X-Scales, recently popular in PPC's and now Palms consumes something along the lines of 275mA at full operation. While impressive, performance-wise, over the Dragonball, it DOES eat power a lot more aggressively (some 10x moreso...). To be sure, other ARM based CPUs such as the OMAP consume less power than this, but they DO consume a lot more than the Dragonball all the same (at the expense of being lower performers than the XScale model...).

Couple that with some other power consumptive design decisions like displays that, generally speaking, need a backlight and you eat batteries like candy.

It's why the early PDA's, including the early WinCE devices could get away with running on Alkalines or NiMH AA's or AAA's and now you have integral or removable Lithium-ion batteries as a requirement. I'm sure there are some PDA designs using an ARM that can go several hours with continuous operation, but most of them are weak in that arena. You're paying for the performance in operational span.

Ridiculous pricing

[pico303]

Not to be a troll, but how exactly can Dell and HP come out with Pocket PC handhelds for $200, while every Palm and Linux handheld out there is $300+ (most typically $500-600)? I don't get it. These guys have to pay Microsoft a license fee for Pocket PC 2003, right? So how come the Linux handhelds cost so much more?

I really don't want to pump money into Microsoft, but until Palm or any Linux company can give me a decent quality color handheld for under $250, I ain't buying.

Re:Ridiculous pricing

[twalk]

Dell and HP are basically selling just a little over cost. Basically they're losing money on each one sold, but they make great throwins to help get big server purchases, so it evens out.

Palm, et al, actually need to make a nice profit off of each one sold...

Palm Zire 71 is going for about $275 right now.
The Tungsten E will be out soon for $200. (It's roughly comparable to an ipaq 19xx.)

No. All slashdotters are mind numbing idiots.

[OrangeTide]

No. You're wrong. Never in the history of slashdot has someone produced an opinion of their own. Generally slashdotters slither around the net, gobbling up pieces of information and vomit it back out on everyone to show how smart they are.

Also why would it matter if people insult slashdotters? Most people, including slashdotters themselves, make fun of the people on slashdot.

All slashdotters have the following "qualities":
* Thinks Linux is really awesome. (even if just secretly, by pretending to have installed OpenBSD)
* Steal opinions from other places, in an attempt to hide thier own lack of understanding.
* Obsessively driven to comment about everything, even things they know nothing about.

please reply if you have any other slashdot observations you would like to add.

Re:No. All slashdotters are mind numbing idiots.

[Sunnan]

Also why would it matter if people insult slashdotters?

I never said it mattered. (Though it's been done in a rather tiring way.)

please reply if you have any other slashdot observations you would like to add.

Yeah, they constantly whine about slashdot, and don't know how to use the <li>-tag, if you're an example.

Re:No. All slashdotters are mind numbing idiots.

[Anonymous Coward]

has it occurred to you that (practically) all academic and scientific work is obliged to refer to the work of others in order to back up points? Building upon the work of others?
Complaining about the rehashing of ideas on /. rather defeats the point. One of the things that makes a site like this so useful (not always, I admit) is that it serves to collect information from diverse sources for easy perusal (like a newspaper, but less manipulative).
I know some points are repeated ad nauseam on certain threads, but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater..

let me know

[Dwedit]

Let me know when it's actually possible to develop for Linux PDA's from within Windows. Developing for those things is impossible without running linux on the compiling OS, and there's no good reason why there isn't a cross compiler for windows floating around.

Re:let me know

[Capt. Beyond]

Funny you should ask that... codewarrior for Sharp Zaurus

looks sucky

[genevaroth]

I bought a new zaurus sl5500 with a case and netgear 802.11b card new on ebay for $200.00.

Is Windows Mobile better than Linux or Palm

[morpheus83]

I have been using PDA's since a long time started with Palm M505 then I recently bought a Hitachi G 1000 which PDA cum mobile. I find that the Windows Mobile OS is far better and superior than Palm OS. It's Handwriting Recognition is very accurate unlike Palm. Also as we all use Windows it quiet easy to use. I have found a review for the same on the site Phoneyworld.com http://www.phoneyworld.com/handsets/phone.aspx?pho ne=pda_hitachig1000

Thank you for the answer to my question

[G4from128k]

I appreciate the time you took to explain the various distros, applications, and possibilities with PDA vs. desktop Linux. I am interested in building personal knowledge management tools that would work on both platforms (with allowances for the differences in screen size, storage, CPU power, etc.). The fact that so many popular Linux apps can work PDAs is very heartening.

Thanks,
G4from128k

Yes, but can it feature ....

[Anonymous Coward]

I would like to register this HOT domain, but send paypal!

Domain Name: JESUSGEEKS.NET

Created on..............: Mon, Sep 18, 2000
Expires on..............: Thu, Sep 18, 2003
Record last updated on..: Tue, Aug 26, 2003