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IT Training in the Military?

Posted by Cliff on from the sgt.-byte-and-cpl.-processor dept.

firehzd1 asks: "Yesterday's article about the new Czar of Security for the Department of Homeland Security raises a very important question, especially lately. What type of opportunities are there for IT work in the military/government. It seems every article I read is bashing the govt/military for terrible IT decisions/systems but I never hear the other side of the story. How bout we hear from those in the field that can give us a idea of what it is like behind the other side of the heavily armed gate?"

16 of 344 comments (clear)

  1. There's lots of IT... but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Most of the people at the top of the IT chain have been in the military for decades. It's not like a regular business where you just hire new people. Everyone comes from within at lower levels and not always because they're the best person for the job.

    1. Re:There's lots of IT... but... by Obsequious · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I don't know if I'd put it quite like that. Yes, everyone in the upper leadership came up through the ranks, but in general the military does a pretty good job of making sure that you're the best person for the job.

      It's just that all the jobs are about killing people.

      You have to remember that these are people who gamble under the highest possible stakes: their own and other people's lives. When the stakes are that high, you simply DO NOT change ANYTHING until someone comes in and damned well proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that their new way is better.

      Hence, the military definitely has a culture that corporate we weenies would probably identify as "Not Invented Here Syndrome." However, I argue that if ANYONE has a legitimate right to that position, it's the military.

    2. Re:There's lots of IT... but... by psychosis · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Sorry, but I think you've missed the mark entirely. The military barely does a respectable job at making sure you're a PERSON (let alone the right one) when assigning jobs. In the Air Force, any 'technical' degree qualifies you to be what's basically an "IT Officer". History major? Well, you've got some 100-level science here, and a physics course you didn't fail. Welcome to the halls of network management!

      Not all the jobs are about killing people either. In fact, when you look at the Air Force and the Navy, the overwhelming majority of jobs are there to support the 10% that "break things and kill people". I know that number is higher in the Army and Marines, but I'd be surprised if it were more than 60%.

      The standard military mindset is to change everything you can, in order to 'leave your mark' on the organization, and generate performance review statements that make it look like you did lots of "good stuff(tm)" during your tour. Hell, if you look at the performance reviews of anyone in the Air Force, every damned person moves mountains, silently, in their sleep, under budget, and ahead of schedule. I fought and fought to rate a truly worthless upper-to-mid-level manager 3 out of 5 on his annual report, but was told I couldn't because it "didn't look good for him."

      Remember - glossy ads and brochures are there to SELL you a product. If it's worth buying, you'd think they could just tell you the truth, but instead, the military has to keep bringing in million-dollar ad agencies to maintain their enlistment numbers... Something to keep in mind next time that stupid-assed "cross into the blue" Air Force commercial comes on TV.

    3. Re:There's lots of IT... but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      I wish that were the case. I spent eight years in the Marine Corps. The upper enlisted ranks in the field were generally filled by people from other military specialties trying to cash in on some marketable skills before getting out. The younger, more competant work force generally did not have patience for the military culture and the often innept technical proficiency of those in charge.

      Also, I was part of the force that moved the Corps from Banyan VINES to Winblows NT. I can't help but suspect that that was a very political decision and it was certainly not an improvement over what we had, in my opinion anyway.

  2. good luck :) by tblake · · Score: 1, Insightful

    good luck finding much out. I'd be willing to bet so much is classified that people that could post won't post.

  3. Make computers your hobby by Dancin_Santa · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Get a degree that will actually make you money. An MBA would be a good choice.

    Then play with computers in your spare time.

    You will have more money, more time to spend on your hobby, and you won't get burned out on technology because of idiotic managers and other riff raff dictating to you.

    You will be the idiotic manager. And much happier for being it.

  4. no worse by stonebeat.org · · Score: 2, Insightful

    i dont think military has any worse IT dept then any other large corporation might have. it is just that they become the target of the media, since afterall it the "MILITARY" we are talking. but i think it is all just hype....

    --


    Consensus is good, but informed dictatorship is better
  5. Military Intelligence by Erick+the+Red · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The military is always at the forefront of technology, so I'm sure there's plenty of oportunities for geeks like us.

    --

    DO NOT WRITE IN THIS SPACE

    ok
    1. Re:Military Intelligence by The+Snowman · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The military is always at the forefront of technology...

      Unisys (yes, the GIF people) mainframes running COBOL are the forefront of technology?

      Maybe I should get a new job.

      --
      24 beers in a case, 24 hours in a day. Coincidence? I think not!
  6. Not as much of a gate as you might think... by Valar · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The fact is, most of the information systems in the military are pretty much exactly like the ones in the civilian sector. Their laptops are covered in kevlar, but there's no real difference between 'military information security' and 'civilian information security', other than the literal nature of the expression 'mission critical' and an increased focus on redundant, mobile systems.

    --

    ====
    Crudely Drawn Games
  7. Re:Unlike the commercials by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Bad idea. If there's a Democrat in office, he'll just shrink the military, and you won't be able to get in at all. Just look at how the military deteriorated under Clinton. Best to get in before the Bushies get kicked out next year.

  8. I'm in gov't IT by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    So I can tell you for the most part it is sucky-sucky. Bad decisions, inconsistent funding, and stupid ideas get pushed forward all the time. On the good side, career gov't IT people get a little more scratch in their check, and pretty good opportunities to get a lot of training time in. Also, you can usually get a hold of spare equipment to screw around with.

  9. Don't bother... by psychosis · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The only reason to work IT-type stuff in the government is to get a clearance so you can get a job doing the same thing for more money and less bureaucracy as a contractor.
    90% of the good tech-based jobs in the government sector are performed by civilian contractors. The other 10% are generally far, far behind closed doors, and you'd never even know where to look for them unless you're already "in the know."
    In the military, at least, the "401k" plan consists of two easy steps: #1 work for us for 20 years. #2 get 50% of your base pay at the 20 year point for life. There is NO middle ground - you leave before 20, you get ZE-freaking-RO. Sure, the promise of a paycheck for life is a nice thought, but the 20 years of bullshit that you'll have to endure is (IMO) hardly worth it.
    Again, in the military there is next to no inspiration to perform well. Unless you royally screw the pooch, you WILL get promoted. (Even printing out porn on a .mil network isn't enough to get some officers in trouble - I've seen it myself.) You'll enjoy the fact that you can coast on by and leave a mess behind when you move on in a year or two. Your reward for leaving things in decent shape would be that the next guy/girl will change everything (to leave a bigger mark in their short time in the position), making your advances null and void.

    I've been on both sides of this - govvie and contractor. I can honestly say that I've done more valuable work in just a few months than I did in the 10 years spent in the federal employ. Don't do it unless it's your last option, and for certain, don't fall into the "we give you good komputter and teknichul skilz" trap - it's a lie, lie, lie.

    1. Re:Don't bother... by two_socks · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Or because you love your country and want to keep it safe. I guess that's a pretty foreign thought to most of the people here, though.

      --
      I can't help it - I'm a 19D.
  10. Re:Information systems jobs (MOSs) in the Army by bigman2003 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Umm...you have no idea what a huge step up 31F is from 31M.

    I had the dubious honor of being top in my class at 31M school- meaning I used PART of my brain. Despite my outstanding achievements, I was not eligible to attend the first 31F school- which they gave to the top 10% of Mikes at the time, because I had guaranteed station of choice (Germany) and they weren't going to have 31F equipment there for a while.

    Went to Europe for 4 years, where once again, I couldn't go to Fox school, because my unit needed Mikes so bad. In USAEUR (sp?) competition, my Mike team was the 'best in Europe' for 3 years (or some stupid thing like that- we got to go to a few competitions and get even drunker than usual.) Oh HHB 6/52 69th Brigade 32nd AADCOM by the way...

    I actually wanted to re-enlist, but my retention NCO was such a dumbass, he never got my shit together, and by the time he was ready, I couldn't get anything good- so I left. There were some job fairs on the way out, and some of the big Telcos were actually hiring 31F straight out of the Army- of course they wouldn't touch a Mike with a ten-foot pole.

    Surprise surprise, I went back in 7 years later, including basic all over again, because I wanted to go airborne infantry, and Ranger. I hurt my dumbass self, and eventually got booted. Best thing that ever happened to me actually. Now when I leave work, they can't call me back in and tell me to clean toilets all night for the next inspection.

    My take on this whole thing-

    If you want the Army experience- join the Army. If you want 'high tech education' go to DeVry. But going in the military and being the computer bitch, is only gonna piss you off- because you won't really do either. It won't be the real Army experience (you'll be the red-headed stepchildren that everyone looks down on...) and your vision of high-tech, probably isn't the same one you will be dealing with.

    --
    No reason to lie.
  11. Re:You want to know what's behind that gate? by C0deM0nkey · · Score: 2, Insightful
    These [Career Development Courses] are a series of manuals written by a senior NCO in the career feild who again is usually voluntold for this and receives no training on how to write a manual.

    Voluntold?! :) LOL. Oh, that is soooo true.

    Former 3C0X2 here (Communications-Computer Systems Programmer - at least when I was in) and everything you said is just as applicable.

    I wasted^H^H^H^H^H^Hspent nearly 10 years of my life in the USAF and will probably regret it for the remaining years. What a waste of time. There were only two things I got of value: a clearance and an education (of which I paid a fair portion).

    If you [the original poster] are looking at the military as a way to "high-tech" careers, look elsewhere. You could win the lottery and end up with a really sweet job - more than likely you'll end up with a year of "training" in obsolete hardware and programming languages, another year of obsolete training via correspondence courses (CDCs) and a job that sucks @$$.

    My experience: I was a Comp-Sci major prior to enlisting. I ran out of money for school and wanted to get away from where I was so I enlisted in the USAF. Unlike many poor unfortunate souls, my recruiter was up front and straight with me - it was the guy at MEPS (the "in-process" place you go for your rectal exam) that screwed me (pun intended). I scored great on the ASVAB (or whatever they call them) tests - worst score: got an 80 in mechanical (98-99 on all the other areas). Told the MEPS guy who "helps" you pick out your job that I wanted to work in electronics or programming and that's where I made my fatal mistake: I allowed him to talk me into putting "mechanical" on my "Job Areas" form because he pointed out a few jobs that *sounded* like electronics jobs. That goof cost me three years in Alaska as a "General Purpose Vehicle Mechanic" - i.e. I changed a lot of oil and lubed a lot of chassis.

    By the time I left Alaska I was married (goof #2) and felt my only choice was to reenlist so I could be a good husband and provide for my wife. Decided that I hated being a mechanic (big surprise) and that I would spend my one get-out-of-jail free card (you are almost guaranteed a job change, if you choose to take it, at the end of your first enlistment) and try (again) for a job in electronics or programming. Well, I got it.

    Went to Keesler AFB, spent 12 weeks "learning" stuff that was probably out of date when I enlisted nearly four years prior and then on to my "permanent duty station". My job: maintaining a communications network that was so old we were still using 8-inch floppies (I didn't even know such things existed at the time!) and programming on a mainframe system with a, I kid you not, ENTIRE MEG OF RAM! A WHOLE-FREAKING-WHAT-AM-I-GONNA-DO-WITH-ALL-THIS-SP ACE meg of ram.

    If you couldn't tell, my experience in the Air Force BLEW!

    I got out of the military just in time to see the dot-com bubble burst and had to reconcile myself that I had two things of worth at that point: the aforementioned security clearance and the aforementioned education. Thankfully, the combination (and a resume that boasted of some consulting work I pursued independently of the Air Force) got me a job as a contractor.

    Today, I can say that, while the technology I work with is not bleeding-edge, it is current and interesting. The upside to working for the DOD as a contractor is: the likelihood of my job being shipped overseas is currently about nil (my job requires a security clearance which is typically not given to foreign nationals). The downside: I still have to deal with a lot of the military crap: poorly defined requirements, got-to-have-it-yesterday attitudes after they have been sitting on something for months, and this sense (particularly from the Officers) that I exist to work whatever hours they want me to (which is true of the average-joe enlisted guy/gal).

    No matter how bad I had it, the 3C0X1's (the,