Slashdot Mirror
Are You On Time To Work?
gravitie asks: "I'm a developer in my local area. I'm on what is supposed to be 'flex time', so I can work the hours that my boss and I see fit for me to fullfil the number of hours I'm required to get a week. Besides this I must clock in at 7:30 AM every day I am at work. If I clock in at 7:31 I am late, no questions asked. If I am late 3 times in one quarter I get a verbal warning. Next time I get a written warning, then it just goes down hill from there (docked pay, etc..). Is this standard in todays business world? Should 1 minute late really be considered 'late'?"
If you have flex hours, why do you have to clock in at 7:30 AM?
Are you late even at 7:31? One minute past? YES! Your employers set up the rules, as a good employee you should respect an abide by those rules. To be honest, it should never be an issue. You should make an effort to arrive at 7:00. That will give you plenty of time to deal with any unforeseen traffic conditions in your drive in to work, issues with weather, car problems, breakfast, etc. As well, if you are consistently early for work, your employers will take note, and will be impressed by your attitude and willingness to get started with your work! Those are the kinds of things which give you good reviews and get you better raises and help with promotions. You should never be late. You should strive to make sure that it will never be an issue.
I haven't lost my mind!
It is backed up on disk...somewhere...
I have true flexitime, and no-one bats an eyelid if I turn up at 10am, or leave at 3:30pm. It says that we operate a flexitime policy in my contract, so that's fine.
Your contract tells you your conditions of work. If you don't like having to be there at 7:30, read your contract. If they're the rules, and you still don't like it, you're free to get another job. Obviously, most people don't work in places where being a minute late a half dozen times can get them sacked, but perhaps you do. If it troubles you, stop whinging and do something about it.
How does treating creative workers like assembly line factory workers improve the company's bottom line?
How does having your biggest asset -- your employees -- breaking out in a sweat for being a minute late (and probably spending half the day worrying how many more late days they have in their "quota" before being punished), make the company more competitive?
How does explaining that your company has more petty rules than the local McDonald's franchise attract the best and brightest employees?
Don't get me wrong: some coordination is necessary, so that employees can confer with their fellow employees. But a goodly number of people aren't at their best at 7:30 (I sure as hell am not), and won't do their best work if some Pointy Haired Boss greets them each morning with a stop-watch in hand. This creates resentment, not loyalty.
Times are bad in IT right now. If the past is any guide, at some point in the not too distant future, times will be good again, and employees will be more scarce. And employees (and potential employees) will remember how the company treated people in these lean times.
I expect the poster's company will have a terrible time attracting talent at that point -- if they haven't already gone under by then, because only the most desperate and talentless of their employees won't have found jobs at a place that doesn't treat knowledge workers like unskilled factory workers.
Opinions on the Twiddler2 hand-held keyboard?
One employer I worked for decided that times were tough and they would require everyone to work an extra 15 minutes a day. Everyone ended up working less. The reason was that most used to work at least an half an hour extra each day, if not more. When the edict came down (roughly phrased as "accept this or your employment is terminated in two weeks as per your contract"), everyone started working exactly the required hours, and not a second more.
I guess we had issues being treated like that, and all the managers getting Jaguars as company cars.
The respect and latitude my boss has given me has earned him a less than 3 minute pager response time and a "yes" every time there is a weekend problem or a 2 am "Can you go in and fix it?" When he needs a long day, I'm there. My record so far is 25 hours straight, on-site.
The last jobs I have had in the industry have been like this:
We need you to be in between 11 AM and 3 PM so we know we can schedule meetings with you. Please warn us if can see you aren't going to be able to make it one day.
Other than that, no monitoring, no punishment and other bullshit.
I don't want to work for someone who doesn't trust my common sense. I feel the same way about dresscodes.
Give me liberty or give me kill -s 9
This doesnt sound very much like flex-time as I know it. I'm currently on flexible-time my employers requires 7.5hour per day for 5 days a week. I must be in between core hours 9:30 to 4:30, and this is probably one of the least flexible schemes by UK standards since I cannot carry over-worked hours to another day, which is more typical.
What are the legalities of treating a salaried employee as an hourly wage earner?
My work schedule depends on whos my boss this week. Ive been at the same company for almost 5 years, with a new boss each year. Working in operations, its always been core hours, because we work maintenance windows, 9-3 is core hours for meetings, etc.. And you worked all the time, so nobody said a word about the night hours for upgrades, etc..
Now the last couple of managers its been 7-5 and 9-6 with maintenance at night. Hours are like the east coast, 9 hours including lunch, we use to be westcoast hours, 8 hours with lunch.. They also shit-canned telecommuting for our groups. They also axed OT, made everyone salary. Increased the work hours to 55+ also. Hired 1 night time guy, but he cant ever do all the work, so someone has to come in and help. Then the oncall pay went away, comp time went away.
Basically, depends on what your manager will fight for your group. I look around at other groups, and see they still have core hours, etc. But ours wont. Each manager can run his department the way he wants, wink wink nod nod.
As an old unix sys-admin, used to be noon to night, get out of my face. Now im in at 7:10 (late on purpose) and skirting a PIP, just for the hell of it. I tell you thou, when its quitting time, im gone. The "You need to stay late to get this project done" times are getting old when your a paid slave. I hear it only takes 9 to bring the telco union in. Humm, they specialize in IT/IS groups now...
YMMV, IMHO, and all that jazz.
If I clock in at 7:31 I am late, no questions asked. If I am late 3 times in one quarter I get a verbal warning.
Well, at least if you're running one minute late you can make the best of it and go out for breakfast, coming in 3 or 4 hours late.
My previous job, I had ultimate flex time.
I was always on call, both with cell and pager, vpn access from home. I strolled into work sometime before noon (and somedays slightly after) but normally worked till 10 or 11 pm, regardless of when I came in. I worked at least a 60 hour work week.
When production ramped up, it went from 60 to 80 hours. Then from 80 to 100 hours. When the project was finished, I went back to my old schedule of comming in at 10, but since little was left to do at the time, I would leave about 5 or 6, cutting my work week down to 35 hours.
Others in the company had a more strict policy. Similar to the one described above. These were artists, some of which didn't function well until 10 am, but were still expected to be in for the 5 minute 9 am meeting. What was once a bunch of artists that did everything it took to get ahead in the work became a group that did just what was needed to get it done. The mandatory 9-6 schedule with the hour lunch at noon and 2 15 minute breaks drove them insane and ultimately turned a group that got things done before time and under budget into a collection of disgruntled people who were running behind and over budget. The sadest thing was that the management did not pick up on it. Sometimes a little bit of freedom is what is needed to get things done right.
-I just work here... how am I supposed to know?
After all, the only important difference between an adult and a child is that an adult does what he/she is supposed to do (i.e, meets his or her responsibilities), even when they are tired, hung-over, etc., otherwise you are still a little boy or girl, and of no use to most employers.
By that same token, "adults" don't need to arrive at exactly a particular time of day to do thier work in a non-service field, nor do "adults" expect that of thier peers. Calling "neya-neya, you're in trouble" and givng out "warnings" and "discplinary actions" is what you do in school, not in business. It's childish, plain and simple.
I've got a C compiler that doesn't like my syntax. I mean, I know I've read the spec and it lays out the syntax, but I don't really like it. I mean, can't they change the C spec to suit my code?
I know it costs $0.48 to mail something, but I only want to use my $0.47 stamps. Can't something be done? It's only $0.01 difference. Sometimes I'll be willing to pay $0.49 to make up!
Does anyone know how to go 130 kph when the speed limit is 100? I mean, people keep giving me tickets. Can't something be done about this? Really, the rules should be changed.
If your hours are stated in some form of contract, then honour it. If you don't like it, try to work with management. If that doesn't work, you can literally quit your job.
If you don't like getting there early and having nothing to do, bring a book, bring some music, bring an audiobook, etc, etc. The worst that can happen is that on days where there's traffic/construction, you won't be stressed out because you'll be 3 mins late for work. Instead, you'll arrive there 20 mins early instead of 30.
In all honesty, it does look disrespectful to other people when you get there late and most everyone else got there on time (or early). Especially those that travel longer distances to get to work in the first place.
No it is not. Not everyone sleeps like a log, regular as clockwork. Not everyone has reliable transport. What happens if there's a serious accident and they close the motorway for 3 hours? Why is 1 minute so important? There are 450 minuts in a 7.5 hour working day. 1 minute is less than three tenths of one percent of that.
Why do some employers treat their workers with contempt, condescention, and suspicion? Why are they so irrational? Whay purpose do such arbitrary rules serve? If timing has to be so precise, surely a machine should be doing it.
Stick Men
"A wizard is never late, Frodo Baggins. Nor is he early. He arrives precisely when he means to." -- Gandalf
---
Heavily armed, easily bored and off my medication.
I used to work for a government department that inflicted this sort of thing on me as well. It never worked for me because I would sleep in despite my best efforts.
As a result, if I slept in I would just phone in sick. Being sick was a lot more acceptable than being five minutes late, no matter how much more expensive it was to the organisation. We had rules about being sick that required a doctor's certificate only for sick leave in excess of two days, so no matter that nobody actually believed I was sick, they couldn't pull me up on it.
When I left I'm afraid I had no respect for that kind of clockwatching (well, given my behaviour I guess I didn't have a lot of respect for it to start with :-), and I still don't.
Every job I have ever worked in since then I have made damn sure that nobody gives a flying F*** what hour I leave or arrive, in general. Of course there are occasions when you need to be on time - it just isn't an every day sort of rule around any workplace I have worked at since, and it never will be in the future.
Some jobs require it, of course. If you are in a customer service position in an organisation that opens at 7:00am, then I would expect repeated lateness to be a perfectly reasonable cause for dismissal. I wouldn't expect the owners of such a place to say that your hours were 7:00am - whatever though: I'd expect them to be (e.g.) 6:30am - whatever, so that turning up 1 minute late would not be an issue.
That'll be 2c, please.
I expect the poster's company will have a terrible time attracting talent at that point -- if they haven't already gone under by then, because only the most desperate and talentless of their employees won't have found jobs at a place that doesn't treat knowledge workers like unskilled factory workers.
While in general I agree with everything you've said, I'd caution you to be just a little more temperate in your choice of language. Factory workers must be punctual because the assembly line can't move unless everyone is present at their posts, not because they may or may not lack some particular set of skills or aptitudes that a different worker or type of worker might or might not possess.
Time was that Americans understood they were to treat all their fellow citizens equally. Granted, if you're a typical /.er, your childhood and adolescence were inundated with the propaganda of class warfare and class hatred, and that's about the only kind of political discourse you've ever heard, but it was not always so, and, for what it's worth, there are plenty of us out here in fly-over country who pay reverence to the old ways.
It's 8:13 AM, I'm "supposed" to be at work at 8:00 AM. I'm sitting here in my underwear at home reading Slashdot before I even bother taking a shower.
Then again I work until whatever time is required when a project is due and my boss knows that I'll bust my balls when it's needed.
I could work in a structured environment like that if I was required to, but I wouldn't put in the extra effort. If 1 minute late gets me written up, then 1 minute late clocking out would too. 8 hours, get up and go.
It's all in the relationship.
My reality check bounced.
You might want to talk to your local labor department. If you are a salaried employee, any company policy that states you will get your pay docked for being a few minutes late like this would probably cause you to become non-exempt and eligible for overtime under the Fair Labor Standards Act.
We just picked this up, too. Each "late" is an "occurance," which add up to verbal warnings, written warnings and dismissal at 7 occurances.
I think it's just that companies are trying like mad to shift the base definition of work, given that ecomomic circumstances keep most of us as a captive audience. When the economy picks up and we all start to bail, they can "negotiate" a more relaxed environment again, which won't do more than return to the status quo of a couple of years ago. I agree that it seems short-sighted to treat your employees like children... any of your employees.
That said, I'd also add that my group is extremely lucky that our managers stood up to say "we work on infrastructure, so we can't work 8 to 5 like everyone else." They could have just as easily said "a 40-hour week? my people will be thrilled! no more late nights and long weekends!" Other departments weren't happy with that ("why does I.S. think they're special?"), but they don't have to show on several weekends a year for routine maintenance and system outages.
Amateurs discuss tactics. Professionals discuss logistics.
Well 2 things said elsewhere
1)It sure doesn't sound like "flex" time, unless 7:30 is the latest start time. Let's say your day is 7:30-4:30 - does he allow you to start at 7:00 and work till 4:00? If not, it's NOT flex time
2)The minute he starts docking you for time, you are no LONGER an "exempt employee", and they MUST, by law, pay OT!! Even if they SAY you are still "exempt" (what most people call salaried), if they dock time in LESS than FULL DAY increments, they don't live up to the Federal Law.
Remember other law rules IF you are non exempt (some may be NY law - check)
1)(Federal) They MUST give you a paid 15 minute break for each 4 hours worked - this is why you get a 30 minute lunch.
2)You can NOT be required to work more than 6 days in a row. After 6 days, you must be given a 24 hour "off period"
3)They must pay you 1.5x Base Salary for all hours over 40 hours/week
I had a boss (MANY years ago) who was doing about what your boss is trying to do - play fast and loose on the OT, but have us on the clock. One day, one of the other employees got in touch with the Dept of Labor (I never did find out WHO, but I think I know). About 3 months later, we all got a nice certified letter, explaining exactly what my boss did wrong, what the rules were, and the best part? A nice check for all our back OT. Being all of 20 at the time, and not earning all that much, that extra few weeks pay was nice (the OT stuff had gone on for a couple of years before the complaint). The most interesting part was they were not allowed to call us "exempt" again for a BUNCH of years, and they had to keep paying OT. We eventually got our flex time, and other perks back, but if we were in for more than 40, we got 1.5x
You could always punch the clock (MAKE sure you are on time), make SURE you work at least some OT every week, (keep your own records), and make a call to the labor dept in a couple of months
-- 73 de KG2V For the Children - RKBA! "You are what you do when it counts" - the Masso
Coming in at that time -- I wouldn't say you beat traffic. I'd say the traffic beat you!
Karnal
We have similar sillinesss popping up at my job occasionally. This in spite of the fact that I have in the past come in for a system upgrade or repair on a Friday and still been at work the following Monday evening.
You never get those hours back. As Scott Adams (Dilbert) says, "Work will take what give it." and never even say "Thank you." With that in mind you're nuts not to give exactly the 8 hour day work is requiring and not one minute more.
Ever dream you could fly? Get up from the Flight Sim. I Fly
Im normally a few minutes late, but i could fis that. However, if they start making me punch a clock, well then, no more working through lunch, no more staying after 5:00 to finish up, no more letting that extra 15 minutes of OT slide, no more cellphone on the weekends for emergencies. They want me to punch a clock? FIne. 40 hours, thats all they get. They keep making noises here about requiring authorization for OT. I would LOVE that. "SOrry sir, i know you printers not working yet, but im not allowed to work past 8 hours without written authorization, so ill have to pass this on to another tech, he should be here in less than 4 hours"
They want to clock me down to the second? Fantastic. THEY get clocked to the second also.
All Troll + "offtopic" mods are meta moderated as "Unfair", because you abused the system.
Are they trying to get rid of you? That's my first guess. The only time I've seen this first hand was when someone was looking for a reason. Are they trying to punish you for working flextime? This may be about something else.
Unless you being one minute late is having a direct and profound impact on coworkers or clients (and that's extrememly rare, military, cults etc.) I'd guess someone is after you.
It's a really bad sign, even if nobody is after you. A rule like that is an indication of a dangerous nitwit manager who will make worse decisions in the future. Those future bad decisions will not be "Free lunch in the breakroom on Tuesdays" but may include memos like "Omission of the cover sheet on TPS reports will result in docked wages (applies to hourly employees only.)" or "Mandatory lunchtime meeting in PHB's office, please bring vaseline."
Management is free to make whatever decisions they like within the law, but that doesn't make all their decisions right, or even sane. If the rest of management doesn't find a problem with this, you're in hell.
Mind you, I like to get to work early, but since my commute could vary from 45 minutes to over 2 hours, depending on the limits of human stupidity, I was occasionally late. Fortunately, my employers were more interested in the performance of duties which were:
In my job description
Actually provided value
If you can't find out what this is really about, and get the one minute rule ameliorated, then mind your P's & Q's while you look for other work.
Assembly is the reverse of disassembly.
You have hit it perfectly here.
As a small tangent, I would like to describe an excellent example from real life.
I haven't read any recent salary surveys, but... Someone I know, let's call him Jim, runs a small business (about 20-30 employees).
He needs 2 programmers on staff. He is forever complaining to me that he has the most crappy programmers, and that all programmers are lazy, self-centered sons of bitches.
Nice. Especially since I'm a programmer.
Well, I found out why he has such trouble. He hires a programmer. He expects them to be there by 8:00a, but that they are on time so long as they arrive within about 5 minutes of Jim getting there (random time, between 8:00 and 8:30 -- usually closer to 8:00. If Jim is really late, (9:00 or later) then the programmers had better be already hard at work when he arrives)
In addition, he starts to really harp on these guys any time they leave before 5:00 or if they leave before him more than a few times.
He takes the "the staff should be already working when the boss arrives, and still working when the boss leaves" mentality, but tries to be slightly flexible about it.
In addition, he pays his programmers $40K - $45K per year.
I talked to Jim about this several times, saying something to the effect that if you treat your programmers as if they are worthless, you will not attract the creme of the crop.
Besides, if a half-decent programmer with a degree can go anywhere and earn $55K - $70K (at the time -- early/mid 2000 these rates were very easy to come by) why would he work for you when you are both really aggravating AND are paying way way less.
His response? You programmers are so arrogant. Why should I pay you that much, you're not worth it. You're all lazy and incompetant.
So... he gets crappy programmers... and wonders why...