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Are You On Time To Work?
gravitie asks: "I'm a developer in my local area. I'm on what is supposed to be 'flex time', so I can work the hours that my boss and I see fit for me to fullfil the number of hours I'm required to get a week. Besides this I must clock in at 7:30 AM every day I am at work. If I clock in at 7:31 I am late, no questions asked. If I am late 3 times in one quarter I get a verbal warning. Next time I get a written warning, then it just goes down hill from there (docked pay, etc..). Is this standard in todays business world? Should 1 minute late really be considered 'late'?"
If you have flex hours, why do you have to clock in at 7:30 AM?
Are you late even at 7:31? One minute past? YES! Your employers set up the rules, as a good employee you should respect an abide by those rules. To be honest, it should never be an issue. You should make an effort to arrive at 7:00. That will give you plenty of time to deal with any unforeseen traffic conditions in your drive in to work, issues with weather, car problems, breakfast, etc. As well, if you are consistently early for work, your employers will take note, and will be impressed by your attitude and willingness to get started with your work! Those are the kinds of things which give you good reviews and get you better raises and help with promotions. You should never be late. You should strive to make sure that it will never be an issue.
I haven't lost my mind!
It is backed up on disk...somewhere...
I have true flexitime, and no-one bats an eyelid if I turn up at 10am, or leave at 3:30pm. It says that we operate a flexitime policy in my contract, so that's fine.
Your contract tells you your conditions of work. If you don't like having to be there at 7:30, read your contract. If they're the rules, and you still don't like it, you're free to get another job. Obviously, most people don't work in places where being a minute late a half dozen times can get them sacked, but perhaps you do. If it troubles you, stop whinging and do something about it.
My company recently adopted a similar policy - 12 times late in one year and you're suspended without pay (though we do admittedly get a more generous grace period of 4 minutes - start at 7:30 and you're not late until 7:35). Prior to this, one had to be late 5 times or more in a period of 2 weeks to even get a warning, and several warnings were required before any real disciplinary action was taken. Seems that with the job market the way it is, employers are finding they can get away with squeezing more and more time out of their employees; They know we've got nowhere to go and, more importantly, that they'll have no problems finding qualified replacements should a few of us happen to walk out anyway. Sad times for the workin' man.
In fact I just got in (09:50 BST) and after reading my mail, I went straight to SlashDot.
I'm supposed to be in at 9:00, but pretty much everyone gets in when they feel like. Then again, I don't leave work until almost 7, so I still put the hours in, and beat the traffic into and out of work.
How does treating creative workers like assembly line factory workers improve the company's bottom line?
How does having your biggest asset -- your employees -- breaking out in a sweat for being a minute late (and probably spending half the day worrying how many more late days they have in their "quota" before being punished), make the company more competitive?
How does explaining that your company has more petty rules than the local McDonald's franchise attract the best and brightest employees?
Don't get me wrong: some coordination is necessary, so that employees can confer with their fellow employees. But a goodly number of people aren't at their best at 7:30 (I sure as hell am not), and won't do their best work if some Pointy Haired Boss greets them each morning with a stop-watch in hand. This creates resentment, not loyalty.
Times are bad in IT right now. If the past is any guide, at some point in the not too distant future, times will be good again, and employees will be more scarce. And employees (and potential employees) will remember how the company treated people in these lean times.
I expect the poster's company will have a terrible time attracting talent at that point -- if they haven't already gone under by then, because only the most desperate and talentless of their employees won't have found jobs at a place that doesn't treat knowledge workers like unskilled factory workers.
Opinions on the Twiddler2 hand-held keyboard?
The respect and latitude my boss has given me has earned him a less than 3 minute pager response time and a "yes" every time there is a weekend problem or a 2 am "Can you go in and fix it?" When he needs a long day, I'm there. My record so far is 25 hours straight, on-site.
The last jobs I have had in the industry have been like this:
We need you to be in between 11 AM and 3 PM so we know we can schedule meetings with you. Please warn us if can see you aren't going to be able to make it one day.
Other than that, no monitoring, no punishment and other bullshit.
I don't want to work for someone who doesn't trust my common sense. I feel the same way about dresscodes.
Give me liberty or give me kill -s 9
This doesnt sound very much like flex-time as I know it. I'm currently on flexible-time my employers requires 7.5hour per day for 5 days a week. I must be in between core hours 9:30 to 4:30, and this is probably one of the least flexible schemes by UK standards since I cannot carry over-worked hours to another day, which is more typical.
Most places I've seen flex time requires core hours (typically something like 10am-4pm). Most places I know don't care though, as long as you put your hours in. Quibling over precise times when someon'e putting in more than their contracted hours does not lead to a motivated workforce.
What are the legalities of treating a salaried employee as an hourly wage earner?
My work schedule depends on whos my boss this week. Ive been at the same company for almost 5 years, with a new boss each year. Working in operations, its always been core hours, because we work maintenance windows, 9-3 is core hours for meetings, etc.. And you worked all the time, so nobody said a word about the night hours for upgrades, etc..
Now the last couple of managers its been 7-5 and 9-6 with maintenance at night. Hours are like the east coast, 9 hours including lunch, we use to be westcoast hours, 8 hours with lunch.. They also shit-canned telecommuting for our groups. They also axed OT, made everyone salary. Increased the work hours to 55+ also. Hired 1 night time guy, but he cant ever do all the work, so someone has to come in and help. Then the oncall pay went away, comp time went away.
Basically, depends on what your manager will fight for your group. I look around at other groups, and see they still have core hours, etc. But ours wont. Each manager can run his department the way he wants, wink wink nod nod.
As an old unix sys-admin, used to be noon to night, get out of my face. Now im in at 7:10 (late on purpose) and skirting a PIP, just for the hell of it. I tell you thou, when its quitting time, im gone. The "You need to stay late to get this project done" times are getting old when your a paid slave. I hear it only takes 9 to bring the telco union in. Humm, they specialize in IT/IS groups now...
YMMV, IMHO, and all that jazz.
If I clock in at 7:31 I am late, no questions asked. If I am late 3 times in one quarter I get a verbal warning.
Well, at least if you're running one minute late you can make the best of it and go out for breakfast, coming in 3 or 4 hours late.
My previous job, I had ultimate flex time.
I was always on call, both with cell and pager, vpn access from home. I strolled into work sometime before noon (and somedays slightly after) but normally worked till 10 or 11 pm, regardless of when I came in. I worked at least a 60 hour work week.
When production ramped up, it went from 60 to 80 hours. Then from 80 to 100 hours. When the project was finished, I went back to my old schedule of comming in at 10, but since little was left to do at the time, I would leave about 5 or 6, cutting my work week down to 35 hours.
Others in the company had a more strict policy. Similar to the one described above. These were artists, some of which didn't function well until 10 am, but were still expected to be in for the 5 minute 9 am meeting. What was once a bunch of artists that did everything it took to get ahead in the work became a group that did just what was needed to get it done. The mandatory 9-6 schedule with the hour lunch at noon and 2 15 minute breaks drove them insane and ultimately turned a group that got things done before time and under budget into a collection of disgruntled people who were running behind and over budget. The sadest thing was that the management did not pick up on it. Sometimes a little bit of freedom is what is needed to get things done right.
-I just work here... how am I supposed to know?
Obviously I have no idea about your specific circumstances but the logic behind a very strict clock-in time could be...
:-)
A: "When do we want people to start?"
B: "7am."
A: "Hmm, that's a bit early. What if they're late?"
B: "We'll punish them. Dock their pay, something like that."
A: "Okay, punishing is one solution. But it would be better if we could get them to just be here on time."
B: "Tricky..."
A: "Hey, how about we say the start time is 7:30am but then we really hit them hard if they're late?"
B: "Yeah, that could work."
Really strict rules are often intended to achieve something slightly different.
But of course I could be talking a load of rubbish, it's just a suggestion
After all, the only important difference between an adult and a child is that an adult does what he/she is supposed to do (i.e, meets his or her responsibilities), even when they are tired, hung-over, etc., otherwise you are still a little boy or girl, and of no use to most employers.
By that same token, "adults" don't need to arrive at exactly a particular time of day to do thier work in a non-service field, nor do "adults" expect that of thier peers. Calling "neya-neya, you're in trouble" and givng out "warnings" and "discplinary actions" is what you do in school, not in business. It's childish, plain and simple.
You got to set the limit somewhere. If people know they're supposed to be there by 7.30 but "late" isn't really until 7.40, it will mostly mean people get there 7.41. I wonder how one calls this "flex time" though. I usually arrive between 8.00 and 9.30. No questions asked.
I've got a C compiler that doesn't like my syntax. I mean, I know I've read the spec and it lays out the syntax, but I don't really like it. I mean, can't they change the C spec to suit my code?
I know it costs $0.48 to mail something, but I only want to use my $0.47 stamps. Can't something be done? It's only $0.01 difference. Sometimes I'll be willing to pay $0.49 to make up!
Does anyone know how to go 130 kph when the speed limit is 100? I mean, people keep giving me tickets. Can't something be done about this? Really, the rules should be changed.
If your hours are stated in some form of contract, then honour it. If you don't like it, try to work with management. If that doesn't work, you can literally quit your job.
If you don't like getting there early and having nothing to do, bring a book, bring some music, bring an audiobook, etc, etc. The worst that can happen is that on days where there's traffic/construction, you won't be stressed out because you'll be 3 mins late for work. Instead, you'll arrive there 20 mins early instead of 30.
In all honesty, it does look disrespectful to other people when you get there late and most everyone else got there on time (or early). Especially those that travel longer distances to get to work in the first place.
No it is not. Not everyone sleeps like a log, regular as clockwork. Not everyone has reliable transport. What happens if there's a serious accident and they close the motorway for 3 hours? Why is 1 minute so important? There are 450 minuts in a 7.5 hour working day. 1 minute is less than three tenths of one percent of that.
Why do some employers treat their workers with contempt, condescention, and suspicion? Why are they so irrational? Whay purpose do such arbitrary rules serve? If timing has to be so precise, surely a machine should be doing it.
Stick Men
"A wizard is never late, Frodo Baggins. Nor is he early. He arrives precisely when he means to." -- Gandalf
---
Heavily armed, easily bored and off my medication.
You could have a buddy clock you in or something.
Many guys at factory jobs clock in/out for other guys and people just leave the site.
I worked at Johnson Controls, making car interiors. Sure, factory job, but you've gotta clock in on time or else. You'd get fired and they'd find someone else with a pulse to take your job.
At Best Buy you had to have a manager punch you in/out if you weren't within 7 minutes of your scheduled time. This way they can control hours down to the minute.
At Applebee's they have what's called "Apple Time". You were supposed to show up 5 or 15 minutes before your shift and get ready for the day. They'd even pay you the extra hour or whatever you would be there during the week by getting there early.
I worked for a mom+pop network shop, and we were all salaried. The problem was, the cunt that worked up front would record what time we all came in and would email them all to the boss.
Bob - 8:01, Marc - 8:14, Ray - 7:55, John - 8:20
I hated that fucking job.
I used to work for a government department that inflicted this sort of thing on me as well. It never worked for me because I would sleep in despite my best efforts.
As a result, if I slept in I would just phone in sick. Being sick was a lot more acceptable than being five minutes late, no matter how much more expensive it was to the organisation. We had rules about being sick that required a doctor's certificate only for sick leave in excess of two days, so no matter that nobody actually believed I was sick, they couldn't pull me up on it.
When I left I'm afraid I had no respect for that kind of clockwatching (well, given my behaviour I guess I didn't have a lot of respect for it to start with :-), and I still don't.
Every job I have ever worked in since then I have made damn sure that nobody gives a flying F*** what hour I leave or arrive, in general. Of course there are occasions when you need to be on time - it just isn't an every day sort of rule around any workplace I have worked at since, and it never will be in the future.
Some jobs require it, of course. If you are in a customer service position in an organisation that opens at 7:00am, then I would expect repeated lateness to be a perfectly reasonable cause for dismissal. I wouldn't expect the owners of such a place to say that your hours were 7:00am - whatever though: I'd expect them to be (e.g.) 6:30am - whatever, so that turning up 1 minute late would not be an issue.
That'll be 2c, please.
I expect the poster's company will have a terrible time attracting talent at that point -- if they haven't already gone under by then, because only the most desperate and talentless of their employees won't have found jobs at a place that doesn't treat knowledge workers like unskilled factory workers.
While in general I agree with everything you've said, I'd caution you to be just a little more temperate in your choice of language. Factory workers must be punctual because the assembly line can't move unless everyone is present at their posts, not because they may or may not lack some particular set of skills or aptitudes that a different worker or type of worker might or might not possess.
Time was that Americans understood they were to treat all their fellow citizens equally. Granted, if you're a typical /.er, your childhood and adolescence were inundated with the propaganda of class warfare and class hatred, and that's about the only kind of political discourse you've ever heard, but it was not always so, and, for what it's worth, there are plenty of us out here in fly-over country who pay reverence to the old ways.
It's 8:13 AM, I'm "supposed" to be at work at 8:00 AM. I'm sitting here in my underwear at home reading Slashdot before I even bother taking a shower.
Then again I work until whatever time is required when a project is due and my boss knows that I'll bust my balls when it's needed.
I could work in a structured environment like that if I was required to, but I wouldn't put in the extra effort. If 1 minute late gets me written up, then 1 minute late clocking out would too. 8 hours, get up and go.
It's all in the relationship.
My reality check bounced.
You might want to talk to your local labor department. If you are a salaried employee, any company policy that states you will get your pay docked for being a few minutes late like this would probably cause you to become non-exempt and eligible for overtime under the Fair Labor Standards Act.
We just picked this up, too. Each "late" is an "occurance," which add up to verbal warnings, written warnings and dismissal at 7 occurances.
I think it's just that companies are trying like mad to shift the base definition of work, given that ecomomic circumstances keep most of us as a captive audience. When the economy picks up and we all start to bail, they can "negotiate" a more relaxed environment again, which won't do more than return to the status quo of a couple of years ago. I agree that it seems short-sighted to treat your employees like children... any of your employees.
That said, I'd also add that my group is extremely lucky that our managers stood up to say "we work on infrastructure, so we can't work 8 to 5 like everyone else." They could have just as easily said "a 40-hour week? my people will be thrilled! no more late nights and long weekends!" Other departments weren't happy with that ("why does I.S. think they're special?"), but they don't have to show on several weekends a year for routine maintenance and system outages.
Amateurs discuss tactics. Professionals discuss logistics.
In twenty years of working I've had one job like that. I lasted six months, and have never been happier to quit a job. Want to punch a clock? Get a real blue-collar job that pays real overtime.
Hell, even when I was in the Navy, nobody bitched about a minute or two here or there, as long as it didn't become a habit. Except for that one job I mentioned before, I've worked for places where as long as I was productive, the time didn't really matter. Most have had expectations that I would work a "normal" day, but the only times I was expected to hit perfectly were meetings with others, expecially customers.
I've also worked shiftwork where I was actually relieving someone, as part of a team. Even there, as long as you were prepared to assume the watch on time, it didn't matter if you were there an hour before or 5 minutes before.
Go Find Another Job
Yes, they're not easy to come by, but the long-term effects of working at a job like yours SUCK!
I worked in aerospace for a long time, and you have to fill out timecards (not punch-in/out, just record the daily total). Even that Sucks. When I went to work as a lead at a very small company, the first thing we did was get rid of timecards, unless we were billing the customer by the hour. And even then, you didn't have to account for every hour of every day.
But remember the flip side
In really god jobs like that, you won't need to take time off to head home early because of a sick kid. But you won't get paid for working Sunday because a big project is due. Overall, I like that trade. If you want to only work your 8 and go home come hell or high water, you've already got a clock-puncher mentality.
Do you want to truly be treated like a professional? Then demand it, and act like it. If the current job won't give it to you, move on!
I can work the hours that my boss and I see fit for me to fullfil the number of hours I'm required to get a week. Besides this I must clock in at 7:30 AM every day I am at work.
That doesn't sound like flex time to me, in fact, your two statements sound contradictory. You can work the hours you see fit, but you have to clock in at 7:30?
Problem is, that doesn't really matter. The terms of your position say you must clock in at 7:30 AM, so that's what you need to do, regardless of whether or not anyone else believes it's flex-time or not.
I work for a medium sized corporation as a sys-admin. I'm normally around during core hours -- 9 AM to 4 PM -- but depending upon what I've had to do the previous weekend or the previous night, I may come in late or leave early. Or take the day off. Management knows that I work weekends on occasion, so they understand that I may take time off during the week.
My real point is that you have to follow the rules of where you work. If the rules say clock in at 7:30 AM, you've got to do it. About the only thing you can do now is try to renegociate the rules. It sounds like you and your manager have a reasonable agreement and that you're being held to rules meant for people lower down the foodchain. You might be able to talk management into relaxing the 7:30 AM clock in rules if you can show that your work doesn't fit those rules.
On the other hand, if you actually have to clock in, then the odds aren't good that they'll relax the rules for you.
Sean.
I'm sure this doesn't apply to you, but sometimes they try to use some nit-picking thing like this to get rid of someone they don't want for other reasons...
computerlady - a brand new Slash-daughter - alone, but no longer invisible, in the
Well 2 things said elsewhere
1)It sure doesn't sound like "flex" time, unless 7:30 is the latest start time. Let's say your day is 7:30-4:30 - does he allow you to start at 7:00 and work till 4:00? If not, it's NOT flex time
2)The minute he starts docking you for time, you are no LONGER an "exempt employee", and they MUST, by law, pay OT!! Even if they SAY you are still "exempt" (what most people call salaried), if they dock time in LESS than FULL DAY increments, they don't live up to the Federal Law.
Remember other law rules IF you are non exempt (some may be NY law - check)
1)(Federal) They MUST give you a paid 15 minute break for each 4 hours worked - this is why you get a 30 minute lunch.
2)You can NOT be required to work more than 6 days in a row. After 6 days, you must be given a 24 hour "off period"
3)They must pay you 1.5x Base Salary for all hours over 40 hours/week
I had a boss (MANY years ago) who was doing about what your boss is trying to do - play fast and loose on the OT, but have us on the clock. One day, one of the other employees got in touch with the Dept of Labor (I never did find out WHO, but I think I know). About 3 months later, we all got a nice certified letter, explaining exactly what my boss did wrong, what the rules were, and the best part? A nice check for all our back OT. Being all of 20 at the time, and not earning all that much, that extra few weeks pay was nice (the OT stuff had gone on for a couple of years before the complaint). The most interesting part was they were not allowed to call us "exempt" again for a BUNCH of years, and they had to keep paying OT. We eventually got our flex time, and other perks back, but if we were in for more than 40, we got 1.5x
You could always punch the clock (MAKE sure you are on time), make SURE you work at least some OT every week, (keep your own records), and make a call to the labor dept in a couple of months
-- 73 de KG2V For the Children - RKBA! "You are what you do when it counts" - the Masso
Your bosses are Nazis. Go somewhere else. Seriously! I have to say, that since I started working from home, my schedule goes like this:
1] Wake up at 7:50am.
2] Log into VPN, AIM, VNC right around 8:00am.
3] Work until 5pm.
4] Log off of VNC, AIM, VPN.
5] Profit!!!
Although sometimes here lately I'm working past 5pm, or working some really weird schedules because that is when things are going on. But I get comp time, which really is cool.
I can tell ya, I truly feel for the poster of this article.
.. so I can arrive at work at 8:00 am.)
A year ago or so ago I was working for an employer whom... well.. I really had some problems with.
Before I start, please note.. I was working salery...
It was typical for me to give large amounts of overtime for this company. (did I say give.. I mean it was EXPECTED of me)
A lot of times, I ended up LEAVING the building, around 11 pm... yah.. close to midnight...
There where also a couple times where I ended up staying even past then... one time my boss tells me "Umm, I have to have this done by tomarrow morning before my flight out to taiwan" me asking "Why didn't you tell me about this sooner?", boss tells me, "I just remembered it".
So I get to stay in the office until 4 in the morning making sure my boss has her shit together.
Lets not forget being sent to a customer site, expected to fix a problem our manufacturing department in taiwan made... and expected to stay there every day... for weeks if need be.. working 9-10 or so until its done. (If you dont do this, the company could go out of business they tell me)
anyways... you get the idea. So add ontop of that.. the fact that my boss was always on my case about being an hour or so late.
"You need to stop coming in late luke, we will have to dock your pay", to which I reply, "You need to stop expecting me to work 14 hours a day, or allow me to come in late."
Literally.. at the time.. I did not mind working the hours I did. The thing that bugged me was that they gave me shit if I came in any later than 8 am. (Look, if I go home at 11 pm.. and get HOME at 12:30 pm.. and get to bed around 1:30 pm... you cant expect me to be up at 5:30 am, and out of the house at 6:30 am
anyways, needless to say.. after TRYING to work things out with management and getting exactly nowhere.. I quit =)
On my way out the door to go to work... so I cant spell check or anything =) But anyways... thats my story.
Luke
Every Friday, just before it's time to leave, my boss comes up and says:
"Hey, Peter. How's it going? Yeaaaa. I'm going to have to go ahead and ask you to come in tomorrow....".
Then, if I'm one minute late, when I get home there's a message on my answering machine:
"Uhhh, yeaaaa. I was just calling to let you know that we did start at the NORMAL time today. So if you could just get here as soon as possible, that'd be greaaat. Thanks."
I usually come in about 9:15, through the back door so Lumbergh doesn't see me come in. Then I sit at my desk and space out for a few hours.
Space out?
Yeah, just stare at my screen, make it look like I'm working.
We have similar sillinesss popping up at my job occasionally. This in spite of the fact that I have in the past come in for a system upgrade or repair on a Friday and still been at work the following Monday evening.
You never get those hours back. As Scott Adams (Dilbert) says, "Work will take what give it." and never even say "Thank you." With that in mind you're nuts not to give exactly the 8 hour day work is requiring and not one minute more.
Ever dream you could fly? Get up from the Flight Sim. I Fly
I watch my coworkers get lazy with arriving on time and flaking off in general. Management was light on enforcing start times and people took advantage of it.
There is a fine line that management must walk. We have flex time but it is at the managers discretion. Those who have child care issues, etc. are allowed to work flex time in that they arrive a little late once in a while and stagger their shift to accommodate a working spouse and child care. Those employee's who start the day and close the day (multiple shifts) have no recourse but to start and end at the proper times. Those in the middle can come and go as long as it doesn't impact staffing needs.
I have witnessed extreme abuse. i.e. 20 minutes late on a daily basis. Excuse after excuse is given. The employee is warned verbally, then warned again and again. One guy receives a morning phone call from the manager each morning to get his ass in gear and on the highway! This employee has now been told that if he's late one more time in the next 3 months he will be written up and if it happens after that he will be docked from his vacation time. If it continues to happen he will be fired. This is a valuable employee but he's about to shoot himself in the foot.
Another bad employee has mastered the art of work avoidance and learned a disappearing act. His manager is in another state but his managers manager sits nearby. The upper manager made a comment the other day about whether or not this employee realizes that his manager reports to him. Even though we don't use time clocks, this upper manager has started a spreadsheet to account for this AWOL employee who shows up but takes long breaks and blames it on non-existent meetings. He now spys on the whereabouts of this employee on a daily basis. It's only a matter of time before the evidence mounts and he is terminated.
They don't want to fire this person, but if he can't show up on time then they will find someone who can. Jobs are scarce and they don't have to put up with slacker lateness.
Most managers are rather flexible if you've been working overtime (unpaid) and you are late because you worked till 2am the night before. Heck, most who experience that type of overtime simply take a free day off without question.
My employer is reasonable with regards to being late but it gets abused. Perhaps the Slashdot poster doesn't know the history of his department. Maybe the manager had to crack the whip and now has to enforce on time arrival because it was so heavily abused.
I arrive on time 99% of the time and I usually work late. Most of the time I am early due to traffic planning, etc. I get there about 15 minutes early every day. I don't get paid for the overtime but I do get recognition from management. I receive the highest bonus every time, I am instructed not to tell coworkers what I received because it's more then double what most received. I get a shift differential and excellent benefits. I am shocked every time I check my account balance. I drive a luxury car and have 10 computers at home. I can afford fancy travel and jewelry for the fiancee. I really cannot complain about being required to show up to work on time.
It's a matter of respect and honor. I am getting paid a heck of a lot of money and I have no problem with performing the minimum requirement of showing up on time.
Im normally a few minutes late, but i could fis that. However, if they start making me punch a clock, well then, no more working through lunch, no more staying after 5:00 to finish up, no more letting that extra 15 minutes of OT slide, no more cellphone on the weekends for emergencies. They want me to punch a clock? FIne. 40 hours, thats all they get. They keep making noises here about requiring authorization for OT. I would LOVE that. "SOrry sir, i know you printers not working yet, but im not allowed to work past 8 hours without written authorization, so ill have to pass this on to another tech, he should be here in less than 4 hours"
They want to clock me down to the second? Fantastic. THEY get clocked to the second also.
All Troll + "offtopic" mods are meta moderated as "Unfair", because you abused the system.
33% pro-labor
33% pro-business/entrepreneurial
33% in the middle
1% anal retentives who notice that the first 3 items don't add up to 100%.
I adhere to the notion that the 1/3 in the middle doesn't post in these threads. As for my work experience, I've had one job where signing in and out was the norm, and that was a bargaining unit ("union") hourly position. As AC notes, there are valid reasons for fixed time slots in the workday (want your fireman showing up late for work?), but if they're calling it flextime, your management's Bullshit Bingo card is now filled out.
I'd have a personalized plate on my car, but "toxic bachelor" won't fit into 7 letters.
If you must be at work by 7:30 and you get in trouble for being even 1 minute late you are not on flex time. Perhaps what you really mean is that you're allowed to work overtime whenever you feel it's necessary, but that is not flex time. Flex time means that as long as you put in your time and the work gets done it doesn't matter what time you come in (although it might be strongly recommended that you get there before a certain time, which is generally around 9:30 in my experience.)
Based on my experience, no this is not standard in the tech industry. It IS standard for production lines. If your boss is trying to run developement like a production line he is either an idiot or an asshole, probably both, and you should be looking for a new job.
Under capitalism man exploits man. Under communism it's the other way around.
Are they trying to get rid of you? That's my first guess. The only time I've seen this first hand was when someone was looking for a reason. Are they trying to punish you for working flextime? This may be about something else.
Unless you being one minute late is having a direct and profound impact on coworkers or clients (and that's extrememly rare, military, cults etc.) I'd guess someone is after you.
It's a really bad sign, even if nobody is after you. A rule like that is an indication of a dangerous nitwit manager who will make worse decisions in the future. Those future bad decisions will not be "Free lunch in the breakroom on Tuesdays" but may include memos like "Omission of the cover sheet on TPS reports will result in docked wages (applies to hourly employees only.)" or "Mandatory lunchtime meeting in PHB's office, please bring vaseline."
Management is free to make whatever decisions they like within the law, but that doesn't make all their decisions right, or even sane. If the rest of management doesn't find a problem with this, you're in hell.
Mind you, I like to get to work early, but since my commute could vary from 45 minutes to over 2 hours, depending on the limits of human stupidity, I was occasionally late. Fortunately, my employers were more interested in the performance of duties which were:
In my job description
Actually provided value
If you can't find out what this is really about, and get the one minute rule ameliorated, then mind your P's & Q's while you look for other work.
Assembly is the reverse of disassembly.
So what you are saying is that a McDonald's worker should be paid the same as a doctor?
"So, I have you down for one coronary bypass. Do you want fries with that?"
Oh, say does that Star-Spangled Banner entwine / The myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's vine?
You have hit it perfectly here.
As a small tangent, I would like to describe an excellent example from real life.
I haven't read any recent salary surveys, but... Someone I know, let's call him Jim, runs a small business (about 20-30 employees).
He needs 2 programmers on staff. He is forever complaining to me that he has the most crappy programmers, and that all programmers are lazy, self-centered sons of bitches.
Nice. Especially since I'm a programmer.
Well, I found out why he has such trouble. He hires a programmer. He expects them to be there by 8:00a, but that they are on time so long as they arrive within about 5 minutes of Jim getting there (random time, between 8:00 and 8:30 -- usually closer to 8:00. If Jim is really late, (9:00 or later) then the programmers had better be already hard at work when he arrives)
In addition, he starts to really harp on these guys any time they leave before 5:00 or if they leave before him more than a few times.
He takes the "the staff should be already working when the boss arrives, and still working when the boss leaves" mentality, but tries to be slightly flexible about it.
In addition, he pays his programmers $40K - $45K per year.
I talked to Jim about this several times, saying something to the effect that if you treat your programmers as if they are worthless, you will not attract the creme of the crop.
Besides, if a half-decent programmer with a degree can go anywhere and earn $55K - $70K (at the time -- early/mid 2000 these rates were very easy to come by) why would he work for you when you are both really aggravating AND are paying way way less.
His response? You programmers are so arrogant. Why should I pay you that much, you're not worth it. You're all lazy and incompetant.
So... he gets crappy programmers... and wonders why...
Soon they'll be requiring you to ask the line manager for toilet breaks.
And you'll have to make due with the 4 single-ply sheet toilet paper ration they give you, no matter how dire your bowel conditions may be.
I agree, get outa there!
Even when you're on a salary, your hours can be billable to a customer.
Even when I'm a salaried professional, I don't have a problem with "clocking in" and/or keeping a timesheet. But saying that 9:01am is late, no questions asked, is just plain wrong unless there's a good reason for it (e.g. customer support contracts requiring the phone/email to be manned during certain hours). Even then, though, I'd want it negotiable.
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Some kinds of managers have personality types that are easy to educate, and others need to be tricked into letting clues sneak in under the radar; you'll have to figure out which this is. Part of being professional is working cooperatively and doing lots of communication, and you'll need to figure out how to do this without totally pissing off your boss. Another part of the problem is finding out what your organization's core values are (at minimum that's your boss, and your boss's boss), and making sure your giving them what they need while trying to get them educated. And you'll probably have to show up at 7:15 for a while until you've got them understanding that they're working together with you, not bossing you around, even if you're just making coffee and checking email.
A typical kind of value that leads to this kind of behavior is that the boss needs to feel comfortable that work is being done, and doesn't feel that way when he/she doesn't see it, and for some of those people that means seeing bodies on chairs, but you can start to work on that with tools like progress reports, and the email messages that you're sending your boss in the evening indicating the items you need your boss to attend to the next day, and with bodies on chairs when *you* want them to be there, which means getting your boss sitting in the conference room when you and your co-workers are doing your couple-times-a-week status meetings at 5:30 PM or some other time that's half an hour after the timeclock-watchers expect to have left for the day, or making sure they're invited when you and your coworkers are going out for beer at seven to discuss the project status (and you've kept your boss at the office waiting for y'all.) Some of this is because you're trying to bring them into your value system, and some is because you're trying to create visibility in a friendly manner.
Another thing you can start doing is having discussions with your boss about development and project management methodologies. What's your boss reading? What do you need to *get* your boss reading? One really excellent book on such things is "Peopleware", by DeMarco and Lister. The second edition's from 1999, but the first was I think mid-80s, when too many organizations still thought it was the 1950s. Another is to start looking at some of the "Extreme Programming" stuff - those people seem to like working 40-hour weeks. And some of the Myers-Briggs personality type stuff can be useful, because programmers and creative types are different from clockwatcher types, and sometimes they'll get that.
Sometimes this is also an ethnic / cultural thing - I've found that the kinds of bosses who do that are often either Asians who haven't been around Silicon Valley very long, or else older white Americans who used to be in the military. You'll have to decide how to handle them, because it'll take longer for _you_ to find the values you share with them that you've got to ruthlessly exploit\\\\\\\\\\\\\ use to share your values with them. Sometimes it's a geographic thing also - at least in the US, people in some parts of the country get up earlier, and people from there don't always understand that not everybody's a morning person (that's another awareness thing you've got to work on, especially if, like 90% of programmers, you're not.)
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks