Elite Creator On Attracting Mainstream Gamers

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Elite Creator On Attracting Mainstream Gamers

Posted by simoniker on Friday September 19, 2003 @12:10AM from the argument-straying-into-witchspace? dept.

Thanks to BBC News for their article featuring a counterpoint to the view that games are just for 'geeks and guys', a point of view recently given publicity by Microsoft's Laura Fryer. The respondent, David Braben, co-creator of seminal 3D space title Elite, argues for the importance of empathy, and suggests that "the 'shoot-it-if-it-moves' mechanic of games like Quake [is] a fundamentally empty experience, unless you're fighting people you know well", even commenting that "...in Elite, we made shooting another space craft illegal, so the player had to think before opening fire." He also discusses his company's forthcoming Sony-published PS2 title, Dog's Life, a mainstream-aimed title which "seeks to create [an] emotional bond with the player" through cute, endearing dog interaction, and, uhm, a 'Smell-o-vision' mode.

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Illegal? by Oddly_Drac · 2003-09-19 00:13 · Score: 2, Insightful

"in Elite, we made shooting another space craft illegal, so the player had to think before opening fire."

Unless you'd chosen the path of a pirate, which although risky did have the rewards you'd expect for trashing a Python inbound to a rich system.

Mind you, I don't think that many games will reward trading narcotics in these slightly moral times.

--
Oddly Draconis
Too cynical to live, too stubborn to die.
1. Re:Illegal? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-09-19 00:18 · Score: 0
  
  Shooting another craft was still illegal, even as a pirate, if you shot another craft in the presence of police, they'd attempt to to shoot you down.
2. Re:Illegal? by DemoLiter3 · 2003-09-19 00:24 · Score: 1
  
  Well, most Elite players I knew have chosen this way sooner or later, as trading didn't bring much income anyway.
  
  At some point in game you will realize, it is no longer makes sence to sell and buy goods, as your cargo bay has just 35 ton capacity, so you'll switch to gold/platinum/gems, while shooting down everything that you encounter in space - mostly because their presence jammed my J-drive (or whatever that thing was called - makes you faster, but only works if nothing is near)
  
  As you may see, gameplay limitations may well make these "enhacements" no longer useful at some point, and you'll switch to "kill all that moves mode"
3. Re:Illegal? by DemoLiter3 · 2003-09-19 00:28 · Score: 1
  
  Shooting another craft was still illegal, even as a pirate, if you shot another craft in the presence of police, they'd attempt to to shoot you down.
  
  They'll also attempt to shoot you down if you have a long criminal record, but the solution is simple : you'll have to shoot the police ship as well. By the time I was nearing "Elite" - 2 rank (Aww, I don't remember how these were called), I no longer differentiated one ship from another - just shoot them all
4. Re:Illegal? by Koos+Baster · 2003-09-19 00:46 · Score: 1
  
  >Unless you'd chosen the path of a pirate
  
  Exactly. IMHO it's impossible to become "Elite" without breaking an egg. But its your call: think than shoot (at least initially). This judgement *does* add value to gameplay, isn't that his point?
5. Re:Illegal? by Oddly_Drac · 2003-09-19 01:07 · Score: 2, Interesting
  
  "But its your call: think than shoot (at least initially). This judgement *does* add value to gameplay, isn't that his point?"
  
  I think, without going back to the article in question, that he was criticising the 'if it moves' model of Quake and other modern games, which is like suggesting that there aren't enough motorbikes in Olympic Pole-Vaulting.
  
  Even in Counterstrike games, you do (assuming that your 'team' doesn't consist of fourteen year olds) start to find an evolutionary set of squad tactics appearing. If the aim is a team victory, then you do start moving in that direction naturally.
  
  This idea of communication being difficult without body language...well, duh, which is why the communications methods start to evolve.
  
  Emoticons, love them or hate them, are one method of stating intention in text.
  
  Both sets of people have ignored one fundamantal difference between men and women that colours the whole gaming thing quite heavily and that's simply that men compete more readily than women.
  
  Although marketing droids would have the world believe that there's a vast untapped market of female players out there looking for a fluffier world, at the end of the day some women think that engaging a machine in competition is stupid.
  
  However I did get my ass kicked in SSX by a girl a couple of days ago, but that does involve being on the same sofa.
  
  --
  Oddly Draconis
  Too cynical to live, too stubborn to die.
6. Re:Illegal? by amcguinn · 2003-09-19 04:08 · Score: 1
  
  It depended a lot on the platform. On the orignal BBC B version, those vipers were terrifying. You really had to be well gunned up and pretty experienced to be prepared to get a "fugitive" rating. On the Spectrum version, however, and the DOS "Elite II" for that matter, the vipers were less threatening and came in smaller numbers, so it really was simpler to shoot everything.
  I don't know how much involvement David Braben had in the ports.
7. Re:Illegal? by floydigus · 2003-09-19 04:35 · Score: 1
  
  trading didn't bring much income anyway.
  Bollocks. I used to to make shitloads trading slaves and narcotics.
  
  --
  All things in moderation; including moderation
Interesting... Mainstream gamers? by Dancin_Santa · 2003-09-19 00:25 · Score: 1

I'm not sure where they come up with the idea that mainstream gamers like going around sniffing other dog's asses.

Surely they aren't basing their conclusions on the little amount of research they did at Slashdot HQ.
1. Re:Interesting... Mainstream gamers? by sardiax · 2003-09-19 04:06 · Score: 1
  
  [quote]I'm not sure where they come up with the idea that mainstream gamers like going around sniffing other dog's asses.[/quote] the normal mainstream gamer. no. the little girl and the drunk frat boy, maybe.
No death please, we're not normal women by carndearg · 2003-09-19 00:38 · Score: 4, Insightful

I was lucky enough to work for the publisher of one of David Braben's earlier games, and in my opinion he is a rare voice of sense in an industry populated largely by vain sefl-obsessed tossers.
However in this case I do not necessarily agree with him. I think his point of communicating emotion by body language is a very interesting one and I will certainly have a look at Dog's Life but I do not agree with him that "pointless killing and death" is keeping women away from gaming. He is right that games like the Quake series are not necessarily babe-magnets but he should watch women playing other games. Pocket tanks is the example that I always think of because my fiancee and her colleagues are hooked on it. No shortage of death and killing there but that doesnt seem to bother them.
In my view the hurdle is not in the games themselves but in the delivery, quite simply the industry markets to young males not young females.

--
Oxford Dictionaries Online
1. Re:No death please, we're not normal women by inkless1 · 2003-09-19 01:54 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  Watching my girlfriend use the flamethrower on passerbys in GTA, and score 200 kills in Dynasty Warriors 4 - I'd have to say there is wisdom in these words...
  
  Quake Deathmatch has grown boring not due to lack of socialization, but because it's simply grown boring. Most games don't make the effort to make it challenging with bots, and so humans become the only real target.
2. Re:No death please, we're not normal women by superultra · 2003-09-19 02:00 · Score: 3, Informative
  
  Five days earlier, I may not have agreed with you. But I think there may some truth in your post. My wife is very much a typical non-video game player, like the type of person Braben is referring to. Oh sure, by mere association with me she's played a great deal of The Sims, dabbled in Super Monkey Ball and Animal Crossing, but has otherwise left all the video game playing to me.
  
  I picked up the surprisingly highly rated Simpsons Hit & Run. It's essentially GTA3/VC, but with Simpsons. She tries to play. So what does she do when she learns Homer can indiscriminatly kick people? She chases Ned Flanders kids around for five minutes kicking them around Springfield, laughing out loud every time the Flanders kid falls to the pavement.
  
  Although I'm no fan of GTA, she's seen me play it a few times and given no more or no less interest than any other game. But here she is, very much exhibiting the "spirit" of GTA, but within the confines of a Simpson game. And enjoying it as much as a 13 year old male shooting up Chinatown in GTA3.
  
  Maybe you're right? Maybe GTA4 should star a female character? What makes a game fun to women (besides being able to kick Ned Flander's kids around)?
3. Re:No death please, we're not normal women by alphaseven · 2003-09-19 06:11 · Score: 1
  
  In my view the hurdle is not in the games themselves but in the delivery, quite simply the industry markets to young males not young females.
  Good point, maybe SquareEnix should of run ads for Final Fantasy X-2 in girls and womens magazines, the thing is practically a girl game anyway (Dress Sphere system?).
Elite 3 by Spudley · 2003-09-19 00:39 · Score: 1

Oh man, I am so looking forward to an updated version of Elite.

Elite was groundbreaking...Frontier (Elite 2) was also an excellent game.

But I want an updated version. I buy one, maybe two games a year: if Elite 3 ever comes out (and assuming it lived up to it's pedegree), it would be the one. There's just so much they could do with it now given the advances in hardware since Frontier. Gimme-gimme-gimme!

--
(Spudley Strikes Again!)
1. Re:Elite 3 by Asprin · 2003-09-19 00:56 · Score: 1
  
  Man, Elite and Dungeon Master got me through adolescence. I'd certainly be willing to pay for an updated version, I just hope they don't try to 'update' the gameplay too much - they pretty much nailed it the first time.
  
  Does anyone know if Elite and Elite 2 are still available?
  
  --
  "Lawyers are for sucks."
  - Doug McKenzie
2. Re:Elite 3 by gl4ss · 2003-09-19 01:04 · Score: 1
  
  gimme me too.
  
  i had high hopes for freelancer, but it turned out to be a piece of s***, even without plot elite2/ffe kick freelancers butt in all fields of gameplay except arcade shooting, in frontier you could spend hours and hours on just going between few systems and reading the newspaper and occasionally leaving for some other systems to get a new ship & etc, and oh the thrill when i took a trip from sol to some imperial outskirt system to buy an imperial courier from there, bought it and then noticed that there was no autopilot for sale there, needless to say the trip back was kind of exciting :)
  
  btw.. as related note, anyone found a _good_ way to play frontier/ffe on a modern pc? bochs work good enough with tweaking?
  
  --
  world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
3. Re:Elite 3 by Yarn · 2003-09-19 01:08 · Score: 2, Interesting
  
  Ian Bell (the other half of elite) has indicated that he doesn't want to make a new elite until processors are up to real-time ray tracing, none of this cheating with graphics acceleration.
  
  --
  -Yarn - Rio Karma: Excellent
4. Re:Elite 3 by jibster · 2003-09-19 01:12 · Score: 1
  
  All the games are alive and well and available here I loved those games so much. I remeber when I was a kid with the first elite, docking your ship was a near impossible task to begin with. I don't think I ever worked so hard at a game as I did with elite.
5. Re:Elite 3 by nelsonal · 2003-09-19 01:53 · Score: 2, Informative
  
  Elite 3 was called first encounters, and was pretty fun, with some impressive graphics for its time, it didn't get marketed well, and you pretty much had to find it in a bargin bin near you, there was someone who was hosting the British version of the game, (much better than the US release which had several major bugs) but I don't know if it is still around. I had it running under 95/98, but you'll need mo slow if you want to play it on anything close to new, or a Pentium one sitting around. They were working on an Elite 4, but I haven't heard much about that recently. There is a really cool open source game, Vega Strike, that is the best new space trading sim I've played, I think it works on Linux, OS X, and Windows, it's still in beta but pretty darn stable, (at least the Windows version was for me).
  
  --
  Degaussing scares the bad magnetism out of the monitor and fills it with good karma.
6. Re:Elite 3 by Asprin · 2003-09-19 02:28 · Score: 2, Interesting
  
  Thanks for the tip, but I can't get them to download because I use Firebird, and apparently, this site won't take you to a page with an actual link until you switch to IE AND agree to download all the spyware ActiveX components. Don't even mention the popups. Firebird kicks so much ass it burns.
  
  However, despite that, Google answers all questions even though asking /. is more fun.
  
  Ian Bell's Web Site has Elite and Elite Plus downloads, plus links to other k001 r0X0r1n9 sites...
  ...including this one, which also has manuals, guides and FAQs.
  
  Cheerio!
  
  --
  "Lawyers are for sucks."
  - Doug McKenzie
7. Re:Elite 3 by iainl · 2003-09-19 03:46 · Score: 1
  
  Plus, for added bonus fun, your second link will lead people to JJFFE, a rebuild of First Encounters that is available for Windows and Linux, so you don't need to faff around with DOS boot disks that have enough base memory to run the game; something of a nightmare to do.
  
  --
  "I Know You Are But What Am I?"
8. Re:Elite 3 by Anonymous Coward · 2003-09-19 15:29 · Score: 0
  
  Thanks for the tip, but I can't get them to download because I use Firebird, and apparently, this site won't take you to a page with an actual link until you switch to IE AND agree to download all the spyware ActiveX components. Don't even mention the popups.
  The site works perfectly on my copy of Firebird. No popups either.
9. Re:Elite 3 by EkiM+in+De · 2003-09-20 05:37 · Score: 1
  
  Well its not quite the same, but somebody has ported the engine of FFE to DirectX. There is even a Linux version and source too for downloading.
  The videos sadly (or luckily) don't seem to be available any more, but perhaps your nearest searchable P2P can be of more help.
  
  --
  Patriotism is the opium of the masses
Dangerous? by Koos+Baster · 2003-09-19 00:43 · Score: 1

Aww, I don't remember how these were called

Harmless, Mostly Harmless, Poor, Average, Above Average, Competent, Dangerous, Deadly, Elite!

Guess you must have been Dangerous
1. Re:Dangerous? by DemoLiter3 · 2003-09-19 00:50 · Score: 1
  
  Guess you must have been Dangerous - thanks!
  
  Yeah, I guess I was quite dangerous back then, heh, heh, heh ...
Dont be too narrow minded by meowsqueak · 2003-09-19 00:46 · Score: 1

Independence War (1 and 2), X, the upcoming X2, Hardwar, Freelancer (cough, choke)...

These are just some of the modern and recently modern games that continued the Elite legacy, albeit unofficially.
1. Re:Dont be too narrow minded by Oddly_Drac · 2003-09-19 00:57 · Score: 1
  
  "Independence War (1 and 2), X, the upcoming X2, Hardwar, Freelancer (cough, choke)..."
  
  The independance wars were a tad too linear, and I exhausted a lot of interest hanging around jump points and taking out hostiles for cash and cargo.
  
  X was brilliant, but quite slow and you were cannon fodder from the get-go (Think Frontier starting with the Eagle MkII)
  
  I suspect that people's expectations of a game sequel tend to be coloured rose...Elite was basically wireframe graphics, and apart from the spreadsheet speculation of trading, it involved little more than repelling attacks from random pirate packs. Okay, it did eat some of my primary school _years_, but I don't really think that we'd consider a similar game groundbreaking unless it could completely wipe the floor with the ones you mentioned.
  
  Of course, that's the function of market research.
  
  --
  Oddly Draconis
  Too cynical to live, too stubborn to die.
This is how GTA is too by vasqzr · 2003-09-19 01:03 · Score: 1

"In Elite, we made shooting another space craft illegal, so the player had to think before opening fire."

Works that way in GTA too, you shoot someone, you get arrested.

You've gotta be somewhat covert.
1. Re:This is how GTA is too by AllUsernamesAreGone · 2003-09-19 01:51 · Score: 1
  
  No you don't. Just get loaded up with lots of hardware (get enough hidden packages to get the minigun at some of your houses for example), find yourself somewhere fairly high up but close to a pay and spray and with cars nearby. Proceed to create mayhem then when you look like getting into a situation you can't deal with get into a car, drive into the pay and spray, drive away free man.... (yes, this isn't easy if you get 5 or 6 wanted level stars)
Not all FPS are alike by oni · 2003-09-19 01:26 · Score: 2, Informative

the 'shoot-it-if-it-moves' mechanic of games like Quake [is] a fundamentally empty experience

This is a discription of a deathmatch. Does anyone actually play deathmatch anymore? It gets boring very quickly.

Quake 3 really shines when you play a team-based game like freezetag or CTF. There's a lot more to it than just killing. Hell, even a 1v1 game is deeper than just "kill it if it moves" because you've got to learn to work the map and time powerups. Anyone who just comes after me with no thought to strategy in a FPS is going to lose.

Sorry, I just love quake.
Go try Eve Online maybe by decairn · 2003-09-19 01:58 · Score: 1

EVE owes much of its being to Elite. Multiplayer mind you, with player conflict sorting out space territories. It's not bad assuming you can handle the PK aspect of the game. www.eve-online.com for the official web presence.
elitist bastard by bigbigbison · 2003-09-19 02:14 · Score: 2, Insightful

the 'shoot-it-if-it-moves' mechanic of games like Quake [is] a fundamentally empty experience

So instead of promoting his own style of game on its own merits, he does so by turning up his nose at another style of game. I love it when people who are in a field like gaming that is looked down upon by elitists become elitists themselves by denegrating the work of others in the field.

--
http://www.popularculturegaming.com -- my blog about the culture of videogame players
1. Re:elitist bastard by edwdig · 2003-09-21 15:46 · Score: 1
  
  So instead of promoting his own style ... on its own merits, he does so by turning up his nose at another style ... I love it when people who are in a field ... that is looked down upon by elitists become elitists themselves by denegrating the work of others in the field.
  
  Kinda like Eminem?
And for you PalmOS users... by jbarr · 2003-09-19 05:45 · Score: 1

...check out Void , a PalmOS game patterened after Elite!

It's pretty faithful to the original, and is very fun to play!

--
My mom always said, "Jim, you're 1 in a million." Given the current population, there are 7000 of me. God help us all!
wait by IIRCAFAIKIANAL · 2003-09-19 06:14 · Score: 1

smell-o-vision?

Samir Gupta, I'm sorry I ever doubted you!

Just kidding. You're still a jack-ass troll.

--
Robots are everywhere, and they eat old people's medicine for fuel.
Re:Market Research by Bluetrust25 · 2003-09-19 10:47 · Score: 1

Here's a link to a java applet port of Elite:
http://www.spectrum.lovely.net/Elite.html

And did someone say market research? SurveyComplete can get your web survey programmed and ready for interviewing today! 500,000 interviews conducted so far this year. Alternately, you can sign up as a member of our consumer panel to take surveys for cash and prizes (i.e. support your habit.)

"Too much pie! That's your problem."
Super Mario Bros 3 Superplay by Anonymous Coward · 2003-09-21 07:10 · Score: 0

http://www.emptylogic.com/suprnova/torrents/299/sm b3.torrent Bittorrent file for an amazing video of Super Mario Bros 3. It's pretty sweet, I'm spreading the .torrent link everywhere that I can.
Re:Market Research by Oddly_Drac · 2003-09-21 21:44 · Score: 1

"And did someone say market research?"

Regrettably yes, although I wasn't expecting a kind of marketing research inquisition...

--
Oddly Draconis
Too cynical to live, too stubborn to die.