Sun's Schwartz Speaks Out on Linux, SCO

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Sun's Schwartz Speaks Out on Linux, SCO

Posted by ryuzaki0 on Sunday September 21, 2003 @04:20AM from the alas-poor-yorick dept.

An anonymous reader writes "In an interview with eWeek Jonathan Schwartz, Sun's executive vice president for software, states: "We do not believe that Linux plays a role on the server. Period. If you want to buy it, we will sell it to you, but we believe that Solaris is a better alternative, that is safer, more robust, higher quality and dramatically less expensive in purchase price.". Also: "IBM is being so hypocritical. If the issue is a non-issue, why don't they indemnify their customers?""

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Purchase price.... by SUB7IME · 2003-09-21 04:23 · Score: 4, Interesting

Can someone please explain to me how the purchase price of Solaris is less than that of Linux?

Cost of ownership maybe cheaper, sure. And warranties/support options as well. But what is cheaper up-front than free?
1. Re:Purchase price.... by Trailer+Trash · 2003-09-21 05:44 · Score: 4, Interesting
  
  Sorry to burst your little bubble, but I do admin a solaris box. It comes with a crippled C compiler that doesn't compile anything.
  
  I'm old enough to remember the hubbub when Sun originally announced that they weren't going to ship with a C compiler as part of the base package anymore. It was a big deal, but just part of McFeely's ongoing "this is an appliance" routine.
  
  I know all about the Sun "freeware" site, but giving me gcc is a really bad booby prize compared to their own compiler.
  
  Say what you want, Sun does not like Free software any better than Microsoft.
  
  --
  Do you have ESP?
2. Re:Purchase price.... by Trailer+Trash · 2003-09-21 07:29 · Score: 4, Interesting
  
  Oh so GCC, one of the best compilers out there isn't good enough? Hell kid, I'm a Sun lover and I still think GCC is the best.
  
  gcc is best in cross-platform support. The code that it generates sucks ass on all platforms where I've used it. Intel's own compiler produces code that is at least 10% faster on x86, for instance. I'd imagine the difference on Sparc, where instruction sequence and timing has a far larger impact, would be dramatically different.
  
  If gcc produced such great code, Sun would use it themselves.
  
  Does IBM give away their compiler? How about HP, or Microsoft?
  
  Sun was the first Unix vendor to announce that they were going to not ship a C compiler with Unix. At the time (early 90's), it was expected that if you bought a Unix system, it came with a C compiler, at the time a 20 year tradition.
  
  It's not a matter of "giving it away". If I buy a system, there's an expectation of what the basic system will have. I don't know if IBM and HP put the compiler in their base OS package, nor do I care. It's not relevant to the topic.
  
  Besides their Linux contributions what does IBM give away?
  
  Besides beaches, what else does Florida have?
  
  Holy shit, do you understand what a stupid question that is? IBM employs numerous kernel developers, they've given us JFS, RCU, hell, read the SCO complaint. In addition to the great code, they provide a world-wide marketing campaign, something that helps bring a level of credibility that Linux simply didn't have before.
  
  The real question for you Sun apologists is this: What has Sun contributed to Linux? Let's see, they jumped on the initial SCO announcement to offer Solaris from people who would be running from Linux. They've continued the indemnification FUD. They are helping to fund SCO's ongoing legal assault. They've tried to hurt Linux every step of the way. What did they do to the Blackdown team? I doubt that they employ anybody who is actually writing code for Linux, but they do employ many marketing people whose job is to discredit Linux at every turn.
  
  At what point are you Sun apologists going to pull your heads out of your asses? I suppose the answer is "never" if you haven't done so already. Sun is no less an enemy than Microsoft, quit letting the fox into the henhouse.
  
  Michael
  
  --
  Do you have ESP?
Yanno by Crashmarik · 2003-09-21 04:32 · Score: 5, Interesting

Scott McNealy used to always say gravity was on his side. I used to wonder how he figured that since you had IBM, and all the other big iron makers dropping in from above and back then it was microsoft and intel setting up a rockhard floor for him to be squished on.

Sun is now in quite the pickle. Sparcstations arent a contender for the desktop. Their server sales are being trashed by Linux on Intel, and Linux on mainframe.

Their latest play MadHatter looks nice but so does lindows,suse, and redhat. The latter 3 have one great thing going for them, they are one time licenses not perpetual service contracts like mad hatter.

Its no wonder that they paid SCO a licenses fee and are now dissing Linux. Its also no wonder that Bill Joy left the company.
Yeah Right by jak163 · 2003-09-21 04:33 · Score: 5, Interesting

Schwartz said: I expect to take 10 percent of the market in the first year. Ten percent of a $30 billion a year desktop market is huge. So, is it going to be more than 10 percent? I hope so, but in the next year I'd like to get a million users. There's a hundred million computers sold every year, I want to be in front of a million of those and two-million the next year.
Ten percent in the first year? What is he kidding? I think reporters should really ask for some sort of substantiation for claims like this. 10 percent would be a seismic shift in the computing industry. This is not a realistic prediction.
eWEEK: So, does the uncertainty around Linux benefit Sun and Solaris?
Schwartz: We have an interesting migration opportunity now because we can go back with Unix that is familiar, we can deliver the Java Enterprise System pricing at $100 per employee, which allows them to run Solaris at infinite scale.
His playbook is obviously to avoid mentioning "linux" and just substitute "Java Desktop System" at every opportunity. He is disguising the fact that they have in fact adopted a third-party linux distribution for desktops. This is the kind of corporate bs that gets slashdotters on Sun's case.
Re:Sun is partially right by idontgno · 2003-09-21 04:38 · Score: 3, Interesting

However, I'd say that you need at least 8 CPUs or more to take full advantage of Sun's superior hardware/software architecture.
We're speaking of Intel, yes? If we're talking SPARC, I don't know how much Linux factors in. (Of course, if you're buy SPARC, you pretty much have Solaris in the box.)
That said, our organization is giving the Ultra IIIi line a miss. We're going straight from Ultra II to POWER4 in an IBM pseries box. (AIX 5L, though.)

--
Welcome to the Panopticon. Used to be a prison, now it's your home.
Fuzzy math by smallpaul · 2003-09-21 04:42 · Score: 3, Interesting

Am I misunderstanding something about his math?
expect to take 10 percent of the market in the first year. Ten percent of a $30 billion a year desktop market is huge. So, is it going to be more than 10 percent? I hope so, but in the next year I'd like to get a million users. There's a hundred million computers sold every year, I want to be in front of a million of those and two-million the next year.

How is 1 or 2 million out of 100 million "10 percent of the market?" Anyhow, 1% of the desktop market in one year is an aggressive goal. 10% is ludicrous. Enterprises are not going to switch desktop operating systems that quickly.
Not indemnified? by countach · 2003-09-21 04:42 · Score: 4, Interesting

Sun is saying that they WON'T indemnify against Linux use on the server. But given that Sun has a valid UNIX licence, and they can distribute as many UNIX kernels as they wish, how could SCO argue that a Linux user who got their kernel from Sun is not a valid licencee? And how would Sun be able to stand up in court and say that they sold Linux to someone without a valid licence, yet they're not responsible?
Re:Odd strategy by leerpm · 2003-09-21 04:43 · Score: 5, Interesting

That is because Sun really doesn't know what it wants to do anymore. Their bread-and-butter has, and will continue to be selling systems: High-end servers complete with Solaris software, and enterprise support for those servers. But the days of high-end servers are coming to a close. Their market share is being taken over by commodity Intel boxes, running Linux and Windows. There will always be a market for high-end servers. You cannot run a stock exchange on Intel Pentiums. But will there be enough of a market to sustain a company like Sun? I do not believe so.

The last hope for Sun is their software business, not Solaris, but Java. But time over time, they have shown they cannot execute on any sort of plan for themselves in this sector. They haven't turned a profit on software in ages, and IBM and BEA make better Java app servers than Sun does.

They remind me very much of Sega. They cannot compete in hardware anymore, at least not to any degree that will support their whole company. The sooner they realize this, and shift their focus into a pure software company the better chances they have of surviving.
Crack La La Land by dmaxwell · 2003-09-21 04:55 · Score: 4, Interesting

Let me get this straight. This guy is saying that Linux has a place on the desktop but not the server? I thought it was supposed to be the opposite. (I know. I know. Linux desktops are tastier than they used to be.)

This guy is seriously reaching. He's also wrong about his customers. At one time, if truly necessary, I would have considered Solaris for high IO applications. Not now. He all but came right out and said that SCO is a business partner. I also would have considered purchasing StarOffice at work. Not now.

Sun you're known by the company you keep. Publically distance yourself from them before you really hurt yourselves.
Re:what do you expect by platypus · 2003-09-21 05:02 · Score: 3, Interesting

I'm thinking exactly the same. When I read that interview, I just though "Damn, sun must be worse off than I thought".

While there's still quite some way to go, sun has taken a good step in the direction of very creative public relation management.

Really, read the following quote if you don't believe me:

I expect to take 10 percent of the market in the first year. Ten percent of a $30 billion a year desktop market is huge. So, is it going to be more than 10 percent? I hope so, but in the next year I'd like to get a million users. There's a hundred million computers sold every year, I want to be in front of a million of those and two-million the next year.
Re:dramatically less expensive ? by cybrthng · 2003-09-21 05:26 · Score: 5, Interesting

Sun sells to corporations. Sun doesn't really care about someone running solaris or linux on a home pc at this point.

They want a corporate network with thousands of pc's networked off sun "big iron".

To point out something. This month NEC released the first TRUELY "hot swappable" linux server. Its an OLD Quad P3 800mhz for nearly $26,000 that runs a hacked version of linux on a hacked kernel to support the features NEC needed.

On the other hand i can get a Quad CPU Sun V880 with 8 gigs of memory, redundant everything and run solaris 8, solaris 9 and every solaris app off the shelf for about 6 grand more. Were talking a 900 to 1000mhz Ultra Sparc 64bit CPU with 8 megs e-cache vs a pentium 3. With solaris 9 i can swap out CPU boards on a live system, i have all the big apps i need and not locked into a particular vendor. Should i'm locked into SUN, but i'm not locked into only running sun software. If you buy an HA linux solution today you most likely have to work with that vendor to get the software certified.

Do the math. For corporations that NEED mission critical use of UNIX servers, linux is NOT the cheapest solution when you figure in your total costs.

I pay 99.00 for solaris, and thats just the media. i can download the sparc iso's for free, but i like have media locked in cabinets for boot disks if necessary.
Re:what do you expect by Wateshay · 2003-09-21 06:33 · Score: 3, Interesting

Ummm... his math sucks. One million is 1% of a hundred million, not 10%.

--

"If English was good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for everyone else."
Re:CPUs by iggymanz · 2003-09-21 06:53 · Score: 3, Interesting

Sun says 128 CPUs in their PDF document "Datasheet: the Solaris 9 operating system".

You can read about 2.4 and 2.6 SMP scalability here Though Linux can run on 64-way, it is currently best on 8-way or less, with 16 and 32-way improvements still in the works

Both FreeBSD and Linux started SMP with very coarse mutex methods because it's very HARD to write that stuff. They will get better over time. In Linux, IBM is helping to tune and improve that stuff (and SCO hates it and wants to claim it)