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Town Networks Defy Myth Of Pristine Rainforest

torpor writes "An interesting article being published in Science magazine discusses the ways tribes in the Xinguano region cultivated and integrated the Amazon rainforest into their culture by building 'networks of towns and cities, geometrically structured' to accomodate better use of the surrounding forest region. From an article at agriculture.com: "Brazil's northern Amazon region, once thought to have been pristine until modern development began encroaching, actually hosted sophisticated networks of towns and villages hundreds of years ago, researchers said on Thursday." ... When I saw some of the satellite pictures, I couldn't help thinking it would make a very interesting software model ... Starcraft, Xinguano-mod, anyone?"

38 comments

  1. 7 Cities of Gold by AtariAmarok · · Score: 4, Funny

    Nah. Just a mistake. These guys accidentally looked at the C-64 emulator running "7 Cities of Gold" where Jason in the next cubicle had put little missions and forts over the South American interior. They thought it was satellite imagery.

    False alarm, folks. Indiana Jones, better stay home this time.

    --
    Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
    1. Re:7 Cities of Gold by torpor · · Score: 1

      Seriously though, I think it'd be kind of interesting to make a computer model - in video game context - of these villages, and the problems/solutions they encountered.

      Think about it, the management of these villages and the structures they built has some parallel to the "Age of Mythology" resource-management paradigm.

      I'm sure it would be interesting to develop computer models of the surrounding flora/fauna based on human impact as well as provide an interface for managing their road systems geometrically using stargazing and such...

      There are anthropological computer models around, I know that ... I remember running "WORLD.EXE" in the 70's even, heh heh ... but I wonder if modern anthropological software tools are being used on this project to perform modelling theories about the resource usage, etc?

      --
      ; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
  2. Complete lack of surprise by Xenothaulus · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Brazil's northern Amazon region... actually hosted sophisticated networks of towns and villages hundreds of years ago...
    The civilisations which existed in this hemisphere before the arrival of Europeans have been consistently looked down upon as "uncivilised" by modern culture. A finding like this leads to surprise and even disbelief. Where is the surprise? They were too busy trying to survive to develop culture, etc? Bah.
    1. Re:Complete lack of surprise by gears5665 · · Score: 0

      well...its not like they descended from a white Adam and Eve...in which case they'd have to be substandard humans...

    2. Re:Complete lack of surprise by Planesdragon · · Score: 1

      The civilisations which existed in this hemisphere before the arrival of Europeans have been consistently looked down upon as "uncivilised" by modern culture. A finding like this leads to surprise and even disbelief. Where is the surprise? They were too busy trying to survive to develop culture, etc? Bah.

      The surprise is that we thought that THIS part of S.America was never settled. We--that being, "everyone who has ever even heard about native American culutres"--aren't surprised that they existed at all, but that they existed "in this place we've never seen them before".

      And, to be pendantic, we can safetly look down on everyone before the Reinassance as "uncivilized" if we want to. Or, for an easier measure, any society that hasn't undergone the industrial revolution... (which, of course, includes early Europeans at the same level as most Americans.)

  3. Welcome ! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    I, for one, welcome our new city-building Amazon overlords. Or is that war-ladies? We look forward to being entwined in their magic lassoes.

    1. Re:Welcome ! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Even now they are monitoring us from the the sky in their invisible jets.

  4. Rapacious Republicans by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    Oh great. Now Bush and Cheney and their rich friends will use this as a justification for clearing the Amazon rain forest: "There have always been people cutting it down".

    1. Re:Rapacious Republicans by Catskul · · Score: 1

      How is this Insightful?

      --

      Im not here now... Im out KILLING pepperoni
  5. Stereotypes and Impact by fm6 · · Score: 5, Interesting
    We have all these stereotypes about the "primitive" people who lived in the Americas before Columbus. Even their descendents, struggling to find identity and self-esteem, tend to think this. These stereotypes are usually, romantic, or racist, or both.

    The big stereotype is the naked savage. In Manifest Destiny days, this allowed people to justify land grabs and massacres by thinking in terms of "progress" and "dying races". The post-Hitler era is less sanguine, but still likes this stereotype -- "noble savages" make for nice guilt-tripping.

    The reality is a lot more complicated. There were hunter-gatherer bands in the Americas. But there were also agricultural communities, towns, cities, and everything in between. I'm not just talking about the famous civilizations south of the Rio Grande. The first settlers in what is now upstate New York found large settlements, even nascent cities. These soon disappeared of course -- too vulnerable to epidemics and raids.

    And of course these cultures had their environmental impacts, as human cultures always do. It may be comforting to think of natives as ecologically wise -- but any wisdom they actually have, they acquired the hard way. Yes, Pueblo folklore is full of sound ecological concepts -- but it also contains nasty folk memories of the Anasazi culture that was too successful for its own good.

    The bottom line is that ecological impact is just a part of being human. To manage this impact we need to find a good middle path between naive romanticisim and glib "progress and development" stupidity.

    1. Re:Stereotypes and Impact by IM6100 · · Score: 1

      The fossil evidence shows that before Man arrived on the North American continent there were indigenous horses. The fossil record of said horses ends a bit after the first immigrants to America, the 'Native Americans,' arrived. Rather than train the horses as draft and riding animals and companions, they hunted and ate them to extinction.

      So much for the 'ecological native Americans.'

      --
      A Good Intro to NetBS
    2. Re:Stereotypes and Impact by fm6 · · Score: 1
      Good lord, where did you get that crap? Whoever put it together has muddled about three different sources.

      I was arguing for a non-romantic attitude towards native peoples, not racist garbage.

    3. Re:Stereotypes and Impact by Silburn_Luke · · Score: 1

      A simple (and somewhat snarky) analysis, but basically sound - as the poster upthread mentions, any eco-wisdom held by aboriginal societies is the hard won product of trial and error and there are a number of interesting examples in the worldwide archaeological record of societies running head-on into environmental crises.

      It wasn't just horses mind, there were a number of large mammal and avian species that went extinct around the time we think humans first made it to the Americas.

      These species had one critical weakness - they had no instinctive fear of bipedal hairless apes. Failing to co-evolve for several million years with humans and proto-humans has proven to be a fatal evolutionary flaw for a huge number of prey species. The poster child of this phenomenon is the Dodo - people reported being able to walk up to these large, flightless pigeons and brain them with clubs - they literally had no idea what hit them.

      Regards
      Luke

      --
      #include witty_one_liner.h
    4. Re:Stereotypes and Impact by IM6100 · · Score: 1

      The 'racist garbage' is placing the native Americans on a pedestal, making "noble savages" out of them.

      The fossil record speaks for itself. There were horses on the North American continent. They were driven extinct shortly after Man arrived on the continent.

      --
      A Good Intro to NetBS
    5. Re:Stereotypes and Impact by fm6 · · Score: 1
      Ok, you're right about the horses. The last time I read anything on the subject, the accepted theory was that there were no native horses in the Americas after Eohippus went extinct 49 million years ago. A little Googling tells me I'm out of date, and new discoveries make for a horse (or something in the horse family) being around until the big exinctions 10,000 years ago.

      But I still have a couple of criticisms. First, it is rude and lame to lecture me on the whole "noble savages" thing when you're replying to a thread I started on the very same theme.

      Second, you need to do a little more reading before you latch onto a pleasing theory. A lot of species went away 10,000 years ago, and on all the continents. Now, you can blame this on overhunting, since this is precisely when human populations began to increase drastically. But few experts accept this as the only cause. The planet was undergoing a massive climatic shift at the time. The most striking example of this is the Sahara desert, which before this period was more like the Sahara jungle.

      I'm going to say it one last time, then I'm going to give up: you need to approach theories about the past with scepticism. Not just about the agenda of the person propounding theory, but your own agenda.

  6. Good book Re:Stereotypes and Impact by WolfWithoutAClause · · Score: 3, Interesting
    I'm currently reading "Gun, germs and steel" by Jack Diamond which outlines the reasons how europe ended up as top dogs in the world. To oversimplify- it's because Europe is at the same latitude, so crops/animals that are useful at one part spreads very rapidly across the whole continent; and had certain resources such as 3 key crops and a few domesticable animals.

    In particular the animals are crucial- animal power is much more efficient than human power, so any animal that can be domesticated multiplies farming effectiveness up enormously; that means that surpluses are produced that creates trading, and that leads to villages, towns and eventually cities.

    Additionally, living with your animals means you are more likely to catch diseases from them- that's why the europeans carried nasty diseases that practically annihilated native populations that lacked domesticated animals. The europeans themselves had built up a tolerance over time, so were mostly immune.

    Anyway, putting the book to one side, this discovery is particularly interesting. The sustainable farming technology that these 'primitive' people found is actually better than the slash and burn that is used in the Amazon currently. Who would have guessed that stirring in some graphite into the Amazon soil would improve it so much that long term the soil is preserved? In fact the soil they made is still good nearly 5 centuries later, and is sold commercially.

    --

    -WolfWithoutAClause

    "Gravity is only a theory, not a fact!"
    1. Re:Good book Re:Stereotypes and Impact by fm6 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I love reading stuff like that, and I thank you for the book reference. But you need to take it with a grain of salt. Lots of theories "explain" the past, but do you go about deciding which ones are right?

    2. Re:Good book Re:Stereotypes and Impact by WolfWithoutAClause · · Score: 3, Insightful
      You have to look at the evidence, make theories based on the evidence, and then pick the simplest theory that is consistent with the evidence. ("Ockhams Razor").

      A theory like 'primitive people are too stupid to create civilization anyway' is too simple (they can't all be that stupid); and actually looking at the archeological evidence, or even evidence from 'backward' peoples today, it doesn't really line up with this view anyway (if you have a reasonably open mind anyway- you can't really expect racists to suddenly decide that Africans lacked key resources.)

      The evidence in the book is nigh-on overwhelming; it's excessively detailed, and having read it (even 1/4 of it), I atleast can easily see that it cannot really have been any other way.

      --

      -WolfWithoutAClause

      "Gravity is only a theory, not a fact!"
    3. Re:Good book Re:Stereotypes and Impact by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      So basically you're saying that out of all the simple explanations, you still pick the one that appeals to you. You're still back where the poster said; there are many many scenarios that explain history.

      If you want a taste of mind-numbingly detailed theories, just go to any university and look at the decades of doctoral theses in the anthropology section of the library.

    4. Re:Good book Re:Stereotypes and Impact by WolfWithoutAClause · · Score: 1
      So basically you're saying that out of all the simple explanations, you still pick the one that appeals to you

      No; I repeat, I pick the simplest one. Only if there are several, equally simple theories do I get to pick and choose. And even then it's usually a good idea to experimentally test wherever possible. (And if it isn't possible- that's usually a good sign you've got a rubbishy theory.)

      --

      -WolfWithoutAClause

      "Gravity is only a theory, not a fact!"
  7. Horizon link on this topic by WolfWithoutAClause · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Check out the horizon transcript.

    Basically, the soil 'terra preta' is the secret to how these peoples managed to prosper on land which is currently considered to 'poor soil' only suitable for slash and burn. This soil holds on to the soil nutrients even in the face of high rainfall; and enables farming; it's made by mixing charcoal into the soil.

    --

    -WolfWithoutAClause

    "Gravity is only a theory, not a fact!"
  8. That Ockham Thing by fm6 · · Score: 2, Insightful
    But who gets to decide what's the simplest theory? It all depends on your general world view. Ockham himself had strange, complicated beliefs that most modern people would find hard to accept. I've heard people propound some really convoluted theories and assert that they were the "simplest" explanation for some thing or another.

    This is a very basic problem. In any discipline, you run the risk of falling in love with a theory. Even the physical sciences have this problem. But they at least have Experiment to poke holes in a theory that's beautiful and elegant and logical and utterly wrong. Other disciplines have to be more cautious.

    Which is not to say that historical theories are a waste of time. They just have to be taken, as I said, with a grain of salt.

    1. Re:That Ockham Thing by WolfWithoutAClause · · Score: 2, Interesting
      But who gets to decide what's the simplest theory?

      I don't think that matters as much; provided the people who are checking your reasons are logical, they broadly should come to equivalent conclusions.

      It all depends on your general world view.

      I think you need to include your world view in with the assumptions.

      Note, that strictly, Ockhams razor does not determine truth. It merely identifies the theory that is least arguable given the evidence.

      For example, if you apply Ockhams razor to religion- it usually cuts away 'God' (basically God is some ultrapowerful, all knowing being that can do practically anything- you rapidly get into problems that you can't predict such a being, and Ockhams razor cuts him/her/it away in favour of, say, pure physics with no God.)

      However, that does not prove that there is no God! It just says that the formalism that is Ockhams razor does not support that religious idea with the current evidence. As another example, if you read the formal rules of ping/pong, you probably find no God there either. There's no God in the rules of chess. These are all things that people do, even religious people. That does not make them atheists, since there is a distinction between what people do and what they believe. Essentially, Ockhams razor is an essential component in practical logic- and logic does not allow you to prove the existence of God. That's what faith is for.

      Ockhams razor is needed because otherwise, for example, you would have to try to prove that the moon isn't pushed around by invisible, intangible faeries- it's not possible to do that. Using Ockhams razor puts the onus on the proposer of the theory to show that it is simpler than the idea that the moon is falling towards the earth all the time.

      --

      -WolfWithoutAClause

      "Gravity is only a theory, not a fact!"
    2. Re:That Ockham Thing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So I guess we should use Ockham's Razor because it is the simplest method of selecting explanations.

  9. Amazon rain forest a human artifact? by mlinksva · · Score: 3, Interesting

    "1491", an intriguing article in the Atlantic magazine last year claims this may be so.

    1. Re:Amazon rain forest a human artifact? by tolldog · · Score: 1

      That is probably one of the most interesting articles I have ever read. Thank you for pointing it out.

      -Tim

      --
      -I just work here... how am I supposed to know?
    2. Re:Amazon rain forest a human artifact? by p3d0 · · Score: 1

      Here's a interesting phrase from that article: "hundreds of acres across".

      --
      Patrick Doyle
      I mod down every jackass who puts his moderation policy in his sig. Oh, wait a sec....
    3. Re:Amazon rain forest a human artifact? by blahtree · · Score: 1

      Thanks for the link! Utterly fascinating!

  10. Book of Mormon by jgardn · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I'm surprised no one has brought this up.

    A young farmer, Joseph Smith, translated a book written on gold plates in the 1820s that described several societies that inhabited the Americas for thousands of years. The American Indians are descendants of one of them.

    This book is called the "Book of Mormon" and is translated into hundreds of languages. Ask a friend who is a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints for a copy and they will gladly give you one for free.

    You can read about the heights of their civilization -- 400 years of no wars and complete harmony and prosperity for all -- and the depths of their civilization -- complete warfare including women and children, to the complete destruction of a race.

    You'll also understand why some Native Americans had a ceremony of drinking the blood and eating the body of their God (in symbol, of course), and why Quetzecoatl resembles Christ. The strange tribes of Indians who spoke a language resembling Hebrew, as well as the Egyptian-like enscriptions on their tombs and pyramids will also make a lot more sense.

    --
    The radical sect of Islam would either see you dead or "reverted" to Islam.
    1. Re:Book of Mormon by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The difference between "mormon" and "moron" is an extra 'm'.

    2. Re:Book of Mormon by Creedo · · Score: 4, Informative

      The Book of Mormon has been shown to be unreliable as a archeological text by Mormons and non-Mormons alike. Claims to archeological validity were dealt with here by the Smithsonian Institute.

      --
      All that is necessary for the triumph of good is that evil men do nothing.
    3. Re:Book of Mormon by eglamkowski · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I was just yesterday reading a book on world mythology and was specifically reading the Aztec section (a Mexican co-worker piqued my interest on the topic...). The Aztecs absolutely rejected Jesus and refused to add him to their pantheon even as a minor figure (which is pathetically amusing considering how huge their pantheon is and how often they integrated gods of other tribes...). There is some reason to suspect that this complete and total rejection of Christianity may have led to their thoroughly brutal treatment at the hands of the Spanish.

      But really, when you have hundreds, possibly thousands, of gods in your pantheon, its inevitable that at least one would bear strong similarities to Jesus, or any particular god of any other religion you care to name, for that matter. I wouldn't read anything into it.

      --
      Government IS the problem.
    4. Re:Book of Mormon by corbettw · · Score: 2, Informative

      Who moderated this as "Interesting"??

      In any event, there were no Native Americans who had a ceremony that resembled anything like Holy Communion. The Mayans had several blood sacrifice ceremonies, and the Aztecs were pretty brutal in their human sacrifice, but none of them believed they were consuming the body and blood of God, thus joining with him in Spirit. And they sure as hell didn't believe their God became human and died for their sins.

      Last I checked, Christ didn't look like a giant feathered serpent, so I'm not sure where you get the "Quetzecoatl resembles Christ" remark. They didn't even have similar philosophies. One was a god of war, the other was a Man of peace.

      As for tribes of Indian speaking Hebrew, there weren't any (there may be today, nothing says an Apache can't become a Jew if he isn't, er, attached to his foreskin). There is a tribe in Alabama who uses some Celtic words and phrases, most likely thanks to St. Patrick, and there are artifacts from Mexican which bear Chinese and Phoenician characteristics. But nothing remotely resembling ancient Jews.

      Of course, you left out the little niggling details about "Indians" and the Book of Mormon. Like how that book teaches all Indians are children of the Devil and should be killed. And that blacks should be kept as slaves, since it's their natural state. And don't forget the idea of keeping women as chattel. Oh, wait, I forgot, Mormons dropped that one so their territory could become a state. Christians have done some horrible things through history, but they never claimed revelations from God countradicting core beliefs just so they could gain the benefits of US statehood.

      --
      God invented whiskey so the Irish would not rule the world.
    5. Re:Book of Mormon by scribler · · Score: 1
      Do you have any proof of your accusations regarding the Book of Mormon? I am asking, because they are unfounded.

      The Book of Mormon does not teach that "Indians" are children of the devil. Now the LDS church does teach that the Native Americans are descendants of the people of the Book of Mormon, but not that they are children of the Devil.

      And I don't even know where you got the idea that the Book of Mormon condones slavery for Blacks.

      As for the chattel cooment, I can guarantee you that it does not teach that women should be chattel. I know this, because I am LDS. I am also a woman, but I am no ones chattel. (Although I am married.) I am currently an email tech support person for a computer software company. I have also written the manual for one of the programs the company sells. My paycheck goes into my account. I decide where the money in my account goes. Does this sound like chattel? I think not.

    6. Re:Book of Mormon by jgardn · · Score: 1

      Interesting, you claimed that a letter that claims that the Smithsonian doesn't use the Book of Mormon as an archealogical guide means that the Book of Mormon isn't valid as an archealogical guide.

      Think about that for a moment. Just because someone doesn't use Linux doesn't mean it isn't an OS.

      The Book of Mormon, I agree, makes a horrible archeological guide, however. It is a wonderful spiritual and religious record however, written specifically for our day and age.

      --
      The radical sect of Islam would either see you dead or "reverted" to Islam.
  11. Oh please. What a crock! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Smith proved his own fraudulence by attempting to translate the Kinderhook plates (a hoax created by local farmers to ferret him out) and more importantly by foisting a fallacious translation of papyri containing the Egyptian Book of Breathings, as the so-called "Book of Abraham". Smith's ability to translate was non-existent, and his 19th-century racist diatribe, "The Book of Mormon", was just pretext for him to get under the sheets with as many young women - read, teenagers - as he could.

    He was a huckster, a pedophile, a crook (see the Kirtland Anti-Banking scandal), an accessory to murder (the Danites), a polygamist, a racist, a narcissist, and a phony.

  12. "myth of pristine rainforest" by penguin7of9 · · Score: 1

    Why use that kind of biased language? That kind of phrase is usually followed by arguments of the form "since it's not pristine anymore anyway, we might as well chop it down", or "since people have lived there in the past, why not settle it again"?

    The fact is: those people aren't living there anymore, and they haven't lived there for a long time. And it wasn't Europeans that killed them. Obviously, that environment is not a great environment for humans to live.

    Besides, this hardly sounds all that unusual: haven't there been plenty of cities found in other American rain forests?

  13. "Civilization" IS created by the stupid by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Just look at the Bush, the acting-POTUS. Ashcroft. The EU Parliament that just allowed SW patents (I'm a US'ian, does it show?).

    And of course, the obligatory:
    I'm a stupid white man, you Insensitive Clod(c)!
    (Search Amazon.com for "stupid white men by michael moore)