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TIA Project to End

Posted by CowboyNeal on from the let-freedom-ring dept.

Marnhinn writes "MSNBC is reporting that the Terrorism Spying Project (also known as TIA) is dead. The government is cancelling most of the project and changing the rest to focus on people outside the United States." TIA had been on death's door for a while, but now it's finally official. Some of the programs will still be around, however, they will just be shifted over to different departments.

21 of 216 comments (clear)

  1. I'm not an American... by MaestroSartori · · Score: 5, Insightful

    ...and I don't think I'm hugely paranoid about evil government and so on, but I suspect most of the things that TIA was going to do are probably already going on in one form or another behind the scenes.

    Maybe the only good thing about formalising it would be that at least there'd be some sort of accountability...

    --
    Game dev and music blog
    1. Re:I'm not an American... by msgmonkey · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Well one interesting legal point someone mentioned a while back was whilst most countries constitutions do not allow spying on their citizens there is nothing stopping them from spying on other counties citizens. A legal loophole would allow lets say the US and UK to have an agreement whereby they say "you spy on mine and I'ill spy on yours and we'ill exchange the information"

    2. Re:I'm not an American... by AlecC · · Score: 4, Insightful

      A legal loophole would allow lets say the US and UK to have an agreement whereby they say "you spy on mine and I'ill spy on yours and we'ill exchange the information"

      While, as you say, this might well be legal, the political/PR consequences if it got out would be enormous - far too much risk for the "other" govenrment to take. Look how much fuss there was when the Israelis were found to be collecting relatively samlla amounts of information about the US.

      --
      Consciousness is an illusion caused by an excess of self consciousness.
    3. Re:I'm not an American... by KingJoshi · · Score: 3, Insightful

      When there were rumors that the US has bugged rooms in the United Nations a little while back, I think ALL the diplomats reacted as though it was common practice. And not just from the United States either.

      And it's not just about US planting bugs all over China's premier's plane. It'd be foolish for leaders of ally nations to assume that just because you're an ally, that we won't try to get more info than you're telling us. And we'd be foolish not to expect the same.

      So, with that said, it'd make sense if the FBI/CIA or whomever contacted agencies in UK and said, would you happen to have info on this guy...

      --
      In times like these, it is helpful to remember that there have always been times like these. - Paul Harvey
    4. Re:I'm not an American... by KrispyKringle · · Score: 3, Informative
      This was allegedly the case with Echelon (many, many prior stories about it here on Slashdot). Allegedly, as I said, there was an agreement between the five signing nations (US, UK, Australia, Germany, and someone else...) to "share" information on each other's citizens to circumvent restrictions.

      To be fair, a lot of this really is hype, though. I doubt that much of this went on in a very general scrope--though possibly isolated incidents like industrial espionage ofpersonal vendettas are more likely--simply because that amount of information takes way too much time to do any reasonable processing with. They don't have the manpower.

      This was the one interesting (from an academic viewpoint) aspect of TIA. How can you process so much information from so many different sources in so many different forms, and build any real predictions or patterns in it? Especially when we don't really even have any samples of "terrorist-like activity." I mean, what, do terrorists all run up their credit card debt before killing themselves, figuring they won't have to deal with it anyway?

  2. Whatever... by goldenfield · · Score: 5, Insightful

    So its 'officially' cancelled...I have a hard time believe that the government thought it was important/useful, and now everyone has agreed that we don't need it, and has moved on.

    So now there's no offical TIA project...that just means they can hide bits and pieces of it in other projects.

    If they want the data, they'll get it.

    1. Re:Whatever... by EinarH · · Score: 3, Interesting
      TIA will become another program that's "downgraded" in other words like the Star Wars program grom the Reagan era.
      Star Wars was supposed to end, but lived on in black budget for many years, hiding in the dark and with only small leaks of information leaked out in the ninthies, and then almost 15 years later the program derived into the Ballistic Missile Defense program.

      So the program in it's current form is dead, but the research necessarily to complete the program for future use will continue.

      --

      Melius mori in libertate quam vivere in servitute.

  3. MATRIX by henbane · · Score: 4, Informative
    But from the ashes of TIA rises the MATRIX. This article on the Register doesn't paint a pretty picture.

    And the conspicuous use of the phrase 'anti-terrorism' does send up a red flag, being the standard incantation with which assaults on the liberties and privacy of ordinary citizens are justified. "The MATRIX pilot project is an effort to increase and enhance the exchange of sensitive terrorism and other criminal activity information between local, state, and federal agencies," the project Web site explains. The system will use "data analysis and data integration technology to improve the usefulness of information contained in multiple types of document storage systems." From that it would appear that the scheme is designed to give the Feds what they're not allowed to get simply by re-packaging it and selling it through a back channel. It also looks designed to find and prosecute, perhaps persecute, unfortunate bastards in the name of the American anti-terror Jihad.

    Sounds like TIA wasn't so bad after all.

  4. Score one for the good guys? by Millennium · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I don't know about this. If it were truly scrapped, then it would be a wonderful thing. More likely, however, it's simply being driven underground.

    Once granted power, no government ever gives it up willingly. That's the whole point of limited government, and it's why I doubt that this is really being cancelled. I'd watch the budget for next year, to see if the infamous black budget suddently grows by the same amount that TIA would have gotten.

  5. State Versions by borroff · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The article neglects to mention that some states have begun implementing their own version of TIA (see The Washington Post article). There appears to be some feeling that they can sneak in under the radar if it's not a federal program.

    The pledges of restraint by Florida law enforcement officials are particularly comforting.

  6. See by Hard_Code · · Score: 4, Funny

    See, TIA is dead, honest *waves hands*. You made a big fuss over nothing. We're the government, we're here to help you. Now move along, thank you.

    --

    It's 10 PM. Do you know if you're un-American?
  7. Why, yes, it IS an aluminum foil hat. by rot26 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Anybody who thinks for a minute that TIA is going away as long as Ashcroft is AG is high. This isn't a retreat, it's a regrouping before the next attack. As has been discussed here before, we will see this thing pop up again, medusa-like, under a variety of disguises; they'll be tracking child molesters, deadbeat dads, drug dealers, rapists, what have you, and each will be a noble enterprise, as difficult to criticize as a newborn baby. (No mention of rogue librarians will be made, for sure.) Behind the scenes, of course, will be the massive data-mining that was the original goal. We'll only hear about THAT part incidentally, incrementally, accidentally, etc-ally.

    --



    To ensure perfect aim, shoot first and call whatever you hit the target
    1. Re:Why, yes, it IS an aluminum foil hat. by rot26 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      As hard as it may be to believe, Ashcroft has nothing to do with TIA or anything else in the Pentagon. TIA was Poindexter's baby and carried Rumsfeld's seal of approval, not Ashcroft's.

      And pry-thee which division of the Defense Department was going to use TIA had it been fully implemented and deployed?

      DARPA may be part of the Defense Department, but in this case they were essentially a contractor developing a product for use by Justice.

      --



      To ensure perfect aim, shoot first and call whatever you hit the target
  8. Like the Office of Strategic Influence? by I+am+Jack's+username · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "And then there was the office of strategic influence. [...] I went down that next day and said fine, if you want to savage this thing fine I'll give you the corpse. There's the name. You can have the name, but I'm gonna keep doing every single thing that needs to be done and I have." - Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, 2002-11-18, http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Nov2002/t11212002_ t1118sd2.html

  9. Spying by chrystoph · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I think that the whole spying thing can be summed up with a poster the Security Officer at one of my Navy commands had on his wall.

    "Countries do not have friends, only interests."

    --

    -------------------------
    As easy as herding cats!
  10. The 52 most dangerous American officials by axxackall · · Score: 4, Interesting
    I found a very interesting article about some French people thinking that 9/11 was organized by US official in order to achive specific personal political and financial benefits. Here is the text of the article in case if it will be slashdotted:

    PARIS, Sept. 25 -- Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld is the Ace of Spades and al-Qaida chief Osama bin Laden a Joker in a provocative pack of French playing cards depicting "the 52 most dangerous American officials."

    A RIPOSTE TO the "most-wanted" cards of Iraqi leaders issued to U.S. soldiers, the deck is the latest commercial offering by a radical think tank whose conspiracy theory account of the Sept. 11 attacks stormed French bestseller charts last year.

    "We've already sold some 2,500 decks. That's not bad considering we couldn't find anyone who was willing to print them at first," said Thierry Meyssan, president of the Paris-based Reseau Voltaire group.

    "We were shocked by the indecency of the cards distributed by the U.S. military. It was as if arresting people was some kind of game," Meyssan told Reuters Thursday.

    Two hundred packs of the original Pentagon-devised U.S. cards were sent to U.S. soldiers in Iraq. The American public has since snapped up hundreds of thousands of the decks, which portray Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein as the Ace of Spades.

    The French cards bestow that honor not on President Bush but Rumsfeld. Under his mug shot, he is accused of using the Sept. 11 attacks "to increase military budgets and plan an army in space that could completely dominate Earth."

    As King of Diamonds -- the suit chosen to represent economic power in the U.S. administration -- Bush is described merely as "head of a baseball club ... designated president of the United States by friends of his father at the Supreme Court."

    In the 2000 election, the Court stopped a potentially decisive recount in Florida, a move that handed the presidency to Bush.

    Osama bin Laden, whose al-Qaida network Washington blames for the Sept. 11 attacks on U.S. landmarks, is a Joker described as "a CIA agent charged ... with provoking a clash between the 'Arab-Muslim' and 'Judeo-Christian' worlds."

    Meyssan won notoriety for his book "L'Effroyable Imposture" ("The Appalling Fraud"), which suggested U.S. military insiders were probably behind the Sept. 11 attacks.

    I am now looking to buy that french deck of cards - cood be a very insightful gift here in North America (especially here in Canada) for people who has not completely lost the sense of humor :)

    --

    Less is more !
    1. Re:The 52 most dangerous American officials by ThinWhiteDuke · · Score: 4, Informative

      Just FYI. While this idea "could" be "slightly" amusing, I guess you might be interested in knowing a little more about Meyssan.

      This guy is a known leftist activist with a blatant anti-American agenda. (Yes there are *some* anti-Americans in France). His book, "L'Effroyable Imposture", has been repeatedly debunked in French mainstream media and is widely considered as a failed marketing coup. Interestingly, previous work by Meyssan had earned him the reputation of a good investigator. His work on the French extreme right parties is viewed as solid and professional. For many, "L'Effroyable Imposture" is a sort of political/intellectual suicide.

      Back to the msnbc article, I'm not quite comfortable about their decision to publish it that way, especially under the header "French cards spoof U.S. government". To the casual reader, this article hammers the message : "the French hate us". I would not be surprised if most Americans were offended by this deck and added this piece of information into the "France sucks" column.
      Of course, msnbc is absolutely free to publish whatever it wishes, but I still think they fell here into demagoguery and populism. Believe me, there are a lot of very insightful and interesting articles in the French press about the whole 911/Iraq/diplomacy stuff, none of which are stained by anti-americanism. I think it's sad that msnbc chose this one French initiative to report.

      --

      It would be nice to be sure of anything the way some people are of everything.
    2. Re:The 52 most dangerous American officials by KludgeGrrl · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I am now looking to buy that french deck of cards

      Why give the French all the credit? A US blogger came up with the same idea back in April

      Indeed, as a Canadian, you might have heard the spot on CBC's "Here and Now" a few months ago where a maker of such a deck was banned from selling it on e-bay. According to The Agonist, "He owns the domain name, "thebushadministration.com" where he's posted the images for sale."

      So you can spend locally and protest globally. Or something like that.

  11. heh... by interactive_civilian · · Score: 4, Funny
    [paraphrasing]

    TIA: "I'm not dead!"
    US Citizen: "Here, he says he's not dead."
    US Government: "Yes, he is."
    TIA: "I'm NOT!"
    US Citizen: "He isn't?"
    US Government: "He will be soon. He's very ill."
    TIA: "I'm getting better."
    US Government: "No you're not. You'll be stone dead in a moment."
    US Citizen: "Look, I can't take him like this."
    TIA: "I don't want to go on the cart."
    US Government: "Oh don't be such a baby."
    US Citizen: "I can't take him."
    TIA: "I think I'll go for a walk."
    US Government: "You're not fooling anyone you know."

    yada yada yada...
    ;-p

    --
    "Empathise with stupidity, and you're halfway to thinking like an idiot." - Iain M. Banks
  12. CONTRADICTORY NEWS: Cancelled or Not? by Featureless · · Score: 4, Informative

    If it's cancelled then why did I read this article two days ago?

    --

    Want to Know How to Cheat the GPL? Read On!
  13. Re:Gotta give them credit by symbolic · · Score: 4, Insightful

    DARPA's dreaded Total Information Awareness (TIA) program, formerly administered by convicted felon and Republican hero John Poindexter of Iran-Contra fame...

    Very few articles about TIA seem to mention the fact that Poindexter is a person that cannot be trusted, or that he's associated with a political party that has pushed the notion of 'patriotism' onto a dangerous, rocky slope that has every American citizen under suspicion for possible terrorist activity. TIA will not provide any protection against terrorism, but if history is any indication, it will provide plenty of opportunity for abuse.