Have You Personally Used an Honest Head Hunter?

Haacked asks: "As a software manager, I've tried using recruiters and head hunters to find qualified employees. My experience is that used car salesman feel like paragons of integrity, in comparison. It seems their interests never lie with the job applicant, nor the company. However, I once read that some recruiters do act with integrity and actually care about the people they are trying to place. The book suggested finding a head hunter who is interested in a long term relationship with you (not for the commitment-phobic) and will serve more as a career counselor, attempting to find a position that meets your goals. Seems to me that establishing a long-term relationship with fewer as opposed to screwing people over in volume would make good business sense to garner repeat business. Have any of you ever worked with any firms you felt represented your interests well?"

Comments

Yes.

[grub]

Have You Personally Used an Honest Head Hunter?"

Yes, a fellow named Jeffrey Dahmer. Nice guy, if a bit strange. I'd ask him what he did with the rest of the bodies but he always just gave me a sly grin.
I wonder what ever happened to him..

I have....

[bahamat]

I've been used by one, does that count?

Wait, maybe that was abused...

My choice

[JLSigman]

A guy at the Ettain Group did his best for me, and wasn't upset when I chose a full-time job over the contract he offered me. But not knowing where you are, they may not be available to you.

Retainer vs. commission-based headhunters

[jdauerbach]

Some headhunters work on retainer -- generally filling higher-level positions. They tend to put their client's interests first, because their compensation is already earned and because they work on a long-term basis. Others work on commission, filling a position for, say, 30% of the first-year salary. Many of these are, I understand, a bit less ethical.

When you speak with a headhunter trying to fill a position, just ask, "Are you on commission for this, or is it a retainer job?" You can learn a lot from that.

Re:Retainer vs. commission-based headhunters

[eln]

Let me tell you a little story.

When I was looking for work a few years ago, I was told about a job by a headhunting group. They told me the company that was hiring generally gave $6k for relocation, which seemed pretty high to me, but I said that sounded great and let's move on. Well, lo and behold, I was offered the job, but there was no talk of relocation benefits in the offer letter.

So I ask the company, and I mention the 6k and they say they only offer that kind of money to upper management types. So, I call back the headhunters and relay the information. Without even blinking, the recruiter says "Oh, well then since we already mentioned it we'll just pay you the $6k". Keep in mind that there was no contract or anything in writing stating I would receive $6k for relocation expenses. As soon as I moved to the new location, I put my stuff in storage and got a hotel room and called the recruiters and told them I had arrived to take the position. The very next day a check arrived at my hotel room from the recruiting agency made out to me for $6,000.

The moral is, these guys make boatloads of money on each new hire, which is why they were not particularly bothered by giving me that money.

Nope...

[telstar]

Got a call from a guy that's called me every 3-4 months last week.

Me: "I'm still pretty happy in my current job"
Him: "Well, we're looking for C# developers, but we'll interview people with java talent to fill those roles."
Me: "We're looking for Java talent as well, so if I knew good people, I think we'd take them."
Him: "Really?!? What's the hiring manager's name?"
Me: "I'm pretty sure he wouldn't want that information given out."
Him: "Fine... **click**"

I don't expect to hear from him in 3-4 months.

Out there, but rare...

[TopShelf]

I've personally dealt with a wide variety of recruiters over the last few years, and only one has generally conducted himself in a proper, professional fashion (he's from MRI, which is a large firm with offices in several cities). In general, my experience has shown that you're best off dealing with a good-sized placement firm that's been in the game for a long time. Like other aspects of the 90's bubble, recruiting got flooded with resume-shufflers who were looking to make quick bucks by placing anybody and everybody with firms that were scooping up people left and right. By now, many of those prospectors have been driven out of the market. Just for kicks, though, here's a short list of some decidedly unprofessional recruiters I've worked with:

Shortly after introducing himself, asked me to sign a pledge declaring that I would not, under any circumstances, accept a counteroffer from my current employer.

One recruiter, who I had never met or spoken to, submitted my resume to the company I had just left two months previously! Not only that, but he grossly exaggerated my experience and qualifications.

Huh?

[El]

Like Diogenes and his search for an honest man, I personally have never been able to find an honest headhunter! The sleaziest incident was when one of them slipped me $1000 cash in an unmarked white envelope to quit the job I'd just started and go to work for the job he had been trying to set me up with but was taking too long. Ah, those were the good ol' days...

Re:Huh?

[El]

[Suddenly realizing I forgot to click Post Anonymously]
Well, I certainly declared it as income on my income tax forms, and certainly didn't spend a cent of it on illegal intoxicants (or even legal intoxicants) or women of negligable or negotiable virtue, that's for sure!

well....

[I8TheWorm]

I have, but it was deep into my career as a developer before I found one.

Most seem to be flesh pimps... put a warm body in a seat... as long as they get their check. That can not only ruin their reputation with companies out there, but can ruin a developer's career and self esteem.

I have to wonder, in retrospect, if part of the problem was me though. I now know exactly how to talk with head hunters, and think I am pretty good at getting a feel for what they're actually about. I have no problem telling them when they're wrong, and when I think they're trying to pimp me out.

I have a good working relationship with two head hunters now, and they know my skillset very well. I haven't had a problem with the flesh pimps (other than the usual cold calls) in some time.

I did, once, have one ask me how long it would take for me to learn a particular language that wasn't on my resume. I asked him how long it would take him to learn Portugese. He got the message.

Trusted head-hunters?

[pcraven]

I've worked with a dozen or so head hunters. I've only me one I totally trusted. Good signs for a head-hunter:

1.) Works with you to establish your hourly rate, and the hourly rate he'll bill you at. (Doesn't hide rates.)
2.) No IP agreements.
3.) Reasonable non-competes
4.) How well they treat H1-B people. Do they threaten to deport them if they leave the company?
5.) Have you seen them lie? Do research with other people in the company. Ask pointed questions and see if employee answers match head-hunter answers.
6.) Attitude towards overtime.
7.) No patronizing attitude
8.) Open with what is going on with office politics
9.) Shows you the contract between head-hunter and company you'll go to.
10.) Asks where you want to go with your career

Bottom line, you've got to do your research. Google for people that have worked at the same company and ask them questions.

Re:You don't want to use one, even if they're hone

[kwerle]

I don't understand why people still go to headhunters. Even if this mysterious honest recruitment firm did exist, they'd still be taking a lot of money that could be going to your salary (they have to make a profit somehow), and they'll always be bad at matching you up with a company, because if they knew what they were talking about, they'd have a real job.

Certainly not my experience. I've had 2 very good experiences with headhunters, and 2 mediocre ones. It is certainly not true that "if they knew what they were talking about, they'd have a real job." I've had managers that couldn't code, and certainly the headhunters couldn't, but they DID know how to communicate. That's what they're there for, and if they know how to do that you're in good hands.

I can tell good UI from bad, but I have a real hard time coming up with good UI on my own. There are plenty of art critics who can't paint. Hell, everyone knows good music when they hear it, but relatively few can play.

For that matter, there are plenty who can play music but not compose - and vice versa...

Head Hunter's Over Sell

[Anonymous Coward]

I once had a head hunter place me in a position at Enron as a DBA of their financial databases, even though my only prior experience was that of MS Access and a little VB. My incompetence was almost exposed a few times especially when one of my macros got out of hand and started calculating losses as profits. I just hope my new position at SCO will last a little longer :)

I certainly have favorites, but use protection!

[ZahrGnosis]

I actually have someone I work with fairly regularly who seems genuinely interested in helping. Of the handful of people I've used for headhunters, this one definitely stands out above the crowd. (er... if anyone is looking for a Data Warehousing job in the midwest, I can put you in contact... :-)

But I'm not sure it matters... you can pretty much get headhunters to do what you want by following a few simple rules:

First, remain independant -- don't agree to use only one Headhunter and, in fact, make it clear that whoever you use has no right to submit you for a job without your permission. You can maintain control this way, which leads us to:

Second, take what you want, leave the rest alone -- make it clear what you're looking for in a job and don't accept anything else (up to the point you can afford it). Headhunters make money by getting you to agree to work, so they'd rather be a bit annoyed with you and spend twice as long finding you a job than losing you as a client completely. As long as a headhunter is willing to call you up, you have the possibility that they'll be the one to find your perfect job, so you don't want to alienate anyone, but that's tough to do since they're on commission (all the ones I've seen).

Thirdly, demand open contracts -- this is the only one that's not completely trivial to negotiate. Many headhunting companies have policies that they will tell you the percentage off the top that they're skimming. Rates vary, of course -- I've seen 10% and 50%... still, if the money's right this may not be important to you. Most companies will agree to tell you, and in some cases, you can get a better deal going with someone's competitor. Lots of the jobs on web search engines are the same job posted through various employment agencies, so you may be able to get more money for the same job from someone else. Having this rate disclosure helps prevent that, and it also gives you a bit of a bargaining chip if you turn out to be really good in the position.

Just using those three rules, I think you can convince yourself that whoever is offering you jobs is at least somewhat likely to find something you'll accept. And for the most part, even if you can't stand your headhunter, that should barely affect your job once you're signed on and getting paid. While I like that my agent calls me up or takes me out for drinks now and again, it's not worth losing much salary over.

Re:Pay One

[bladernr]

it's not clear from context what role you're in

I'm a professional consultant, so I pay for services to help find me work. (actually, this is a bit past-tense now, as I have work, but I would pay in the future).

I favor an outcome-oriented approach, personally.

I understand your position. However, I am comfortable with paying for time. My current clients pays for my time, not my results. Now, if I don't produce results for the time they've paid me for, they stop paying. Nothing stops me, I guess, from failure to complete assignments in attempt to get my contract extended, but that is not a long-term successful approach.

You should definatly check the agent's referenes before paying them anything. You are basically hiring them as your part-time contracted employee, so do the same things as you would if you were hiring any other employee.

Yes, I am taking some risk in paying for time without guaranteed results. However, I am asking him to find a client to take a risk in paying for my time, without guaranteeing results.

This is a pretty standard model in the consulting/contracting industry. You are asking for more of a "fixed-price" system, or pay for results. I am sure that exists, and maybe it works. I personally have no experience with that model, so maybe someone who does could comment?

wait a minute...

[neurojab]

You're trying to tell me that you're having TROUBLE FINDING QUALIFIED SOFTWARE ENGINEERS? Surely you jest. Why not just put an ad on Monster.com and look through a few of the thousands of resumes you'll get. If you're too lazy for that, I can forward you twenty or thirty names. Damn, you can't throw a dead cat in Sillicon Valley without hitting an unemployed software engineer with excellent credentials.

While we're at it, I'm having trouble finding a starbucks in the San Francisco Bay Area. Can Slashdot help? Please send me the addresses of the one closest to me. I'd also like a free Frappucino.

I have...

[pVoid]

In fact, he was exactly what you say it to be: a career counselor. I actually bumped into him by chance in a bus. Or rather, he started talking to me. Old dude, with white hair etc. Very cool guy.

At the end of our conversation in which I mentionned I was a programmer and was looking for work, he said, well consider this your interview: you passed.

After that he got me a really cush job, but not after allowing me to turn down 3-4 crummy ones.

He even coached me on interview presentation, something which as a young person and a developer combined, I lacked even though my skills were good.

It's been roughly 4 years since, and I still talk with the guy, we go out for coffee sometimes etc. He's helped me out during times of depression/annoyement with the job market... overall career-saver for sure.

So it does exist, you just have to be lucky I guess.

On a side note, the company that ended up hiring me had and continues to have very close ties with the hiring firm. It's basically an extention of their PR department for hiring. No hiring done from outside that loop.

Re:Networking the other kind...

[admiralh]

Wow, I didn't realize George W. Bush read slashdot!