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The State of Violent Gaming
Ownt.com writes "Today we talk with Running With Scissors' Vince Desi of the controversial, recently released gore fest, Postal 2. We talk with Vince about The State of Video Game Violence and his thoughts on the violent gaming, where it's been, where it's going and many other aspects surrounding whether or not games actually 'teach' the players to go... postal."
but I'm off to bludgeon my parents for not getting me this game.
I'll let you know how it goes.
*smashes screen because site is slashdotted*
> First let me say that if I thought we could make a game that would
> honestly motivate people to do things in real life, then I would
> make a game about fucking, cause this world needs more sex than
> killing that's for shit sure.
I have no motivation problems in this area.
John.
I think not. Someone had to create this game in the first place. Chances are that these people that created the game aren't really 'qualified' to be teaching people how to kill and whatnot. I think that when game creators come up with an idea for a game, it's an idea that ANYONE could have come up with. Game makers aren't some special elite force that knows how to kill. Maybe they do a little research before hand, but I highly doubt that they are any more expericned at 'going postal' than anybody who plays these games.
Also, wouldn't you think that the game creators would get thier brains tweaked a little bit, considering that they have to actaully CREATE the violence?
What's your opinion on the statement "Games make killers out of gamers"? ...I honestly think our society has blown itself into a jerkoff corner and now we cant figure how to get out. How about we start with disciplining our kids, yeah I mean hitting them, and as for criminals fuck rehabbing rapist, I wouldn't even waste time with castration, just get the power generator going and hook it up to a big ass sofa and start the bbq. And we should start with criminal politicians that would help clean up that pimp house known as Congress.
BULLSHIT. If that was actually true we'd have a helluva lot more Columbines and snipers, but thank God we don't. I'll tell you whats really disturbing that a lot of good people are being fed that shit and actually eat it up. I have 1 thing to say RESPONSIBILITY, what the fuck ever happended to saying you're wrong, I made a mistake, I did it
People don't have to take responsibility for their actions anymore. Parents don't punish children they give them time-outs (hey folks, it doesn't work). Parents in some areas can now pay for their children's community service hours so that they don't have to work them...
Kids do dumb stuff and used to get in deep shit for it. Now we can't get kids in trouble because that hurts them later in life. NO SHIT? You mean fucking up when you are young might have ramifications later in life? What's the detterent to doing stupid stuff?
Guns don't cause violence and neither do video games.
I was hopeing that the artical would just say "maine" or "ohio" and just declare that the state of violent gameing.... that'd be cool...
-You're wasting your time. Alfador only likes me.
Am i a hypocrite?
Yes. You are also human. You are no more hypocrite than a former stoner/hippie parent cringing at the idea of their kids trying weed or some free love.
I used to sneak into "over 18" movies, shoplift and bribe clerks for booze. I got my first all night binge by the time I was around 15 (complete with rum induced vomiting). I had a darn good time and don't regret most of it. I also know that I would certainly not condone my kids doing either of those activities. Hell, I'll probably go out of my way to prevent it.
No sig
Note; this holds true for most first-person shoot-em-up, right back to Castle Wolfenstein and Doom.
Is it violent? Yes.
Is it speculative? Certainly.
Does it use blood and gore as a selling point? Off course.
But does it leads to more violent bahaviour? Now that is hard to prove... and unless it can be absolutly disproved, there will always be people who claims it does and will try to tell the gaming insdustry what they can and cannot do.
We'll always have parents and 'worried people' screaming up on how bad the latest games are. But instead of blaming the gamingindustry - who are basicly turning out more of whats popular - for perverting the youth, shouldn't they instead be taking time to be with their offspring, and possible keep some sort of controll at home over what games the children plays? For some reason, I'm reminded of a certain movie from a few years back, where concerned mothers started a war with Canada because their kids had learned a few naughty words...
Parental responibility. Is that to much to ask for?
Everything in the world is controlled by a small, evil group to which, unfortunately, no one you know belongs.
A friend of mine pointed out recently that you can actually use the ESRB Rating Search Engine to show all the games that contain blood, gore, and violence. She went on to comment that she was sure it wasn't their intention, but that they've provided a great way to find good games. :)
It's a standard reaction on behalf of the parents and a sad one. There are kids who will go out and do terrible things, but violence is not exactly a new thing in human history. If anything, todays' societies are remarkably non-violent compared to past ones.
For the parents - especially of the killers - it's an attempt to find blame somewhere. I feel sorry for them: since Freud's time, parents have been told "you are responsible for the way your kids turn out", when in fact many studies show that parents are amazingly irrelevant to their children's character. One long twin study showed approximately 50% coming from genes, 45% from unknown sources but presumably peer influence, and 5% from parents.
There is violence in our genes, but it generally needs a certain kind of culture to bring it out. The place to look for the causes of such killings are the youth cultures these kids hung-out in. There is no evidence at all that violent games or movies influence children, but it seems clear that violent children prefer to express themselves through violent games, virtual or real.
Court cases like this resolve absolutely nothing, because they divert the discussion in meaningless directions. Let's ban all violent games and movies... OK, will that change anything? Take a look at (random selection from a large pool) Uganda, where the kids watch no movies at all, yet 10,000 young (5-12) killers roam the north.
It is very difficult to change a violent culture, but it is possible.
The first thing is to understand the way violence is propagated. Like all youth cultures, it goes from youth to youth, bypassing all adult control. You have to work at this level, thus.
The second thing is to understand how individuals get drawn into violent behaviour that reinforces itself and finally becomes habitual. Can a young man turn to authority for fair protection? If not, he is more likely to use his own force for self-protection. Can a young man who uses drugs turn to authority for help? If not, he is likely to resort to retribution and violence. Can a young man escape from a violent or oppressive environment? If not, he will eventually give up on himself and "go postal", taking his own life but first taking the lives of as many of his peers as he can, in an attempt to regain some face.
I think it's clear that the rigid and somewhat intolerant mentality of adult-youth relations in the States is a large part of the problem.
Banning violent video games goes further in the wrong direction. Now we make criminals out of those youngsters who want such games. Excellent.
I could go into the big news headlines of kids killing their sisters with WWE moves, kids with guns, etc., but I'll go with this one:
My buddy has a 3 year old. During the time his wife was away, my buddy would play GTA: Vice City, and his son would watch. The son thought it was cool when daddy "beat the shit" of of other guys with the bats. Well, Mom came home to see her son, and saw her son going to town on his favourite teddy bear with a kid-sized hockey stick. He said to his mom that it was because daddy did this "on tv". (And yes, the son would say daddy "beat the shit" out of somebody on tv.)
Whether you decide to play these games is up to you, but I believe we do have to be careful with our kids. We need to make them understand the difference between reality and fantasy, and if they can't tell the difference right now, then that's a lesson for later.
I believe it's called parenting.
It is not our abilities that show what we truly are... it is our choices.
I remember seeing the first Postal. It was practically the only game I've ever found so revolting that I felt sorry for the people who actually thought it was fun. And this is after I had been playing all the Doom and Doom-derivitive games for years. Just going around and shooting people without a just cause is absolutely fucking stupid. At least Doom was fighting against an invasion from Hell or something. In Postal, it wasn't even self-defense.
Healthcare article at Kuro5hin
When I was thirteen, I remember passing up Mortal Kombat and Doom for some Super Mario Kart with my dad on more than one occasion.
If that doesn't speak to parents, I don't know what will.
People still don't get it. Last week a Michigan State Law Professor published an article claiming that videogames (especially violent ones) shouldn't be protected by the First Amendment. LawMeme takes apart the argument here.
First of all, it is incredibly hypocritical of a society to shelter their young from naked bodies doing sticky things, while guns, explosions, and violence are all A-OK to be shown right after SpongeBob's timeslot.
Secondly, it is also hypocritical of a society to preach the virtues of peace, condemn violent art and video games, while simultaneously waging a bloody, arbitrary war on nameless strangers a world away.
What's more disturbing for little Timmy to see? "Terminator 2" or CNN? Why is fake violence so heavily restricted and regulated, but actual people bleeding and dying is completely OK? Would you scold your neighbor if you found out your kid was visiting while the father was watching CNN? What if he was watching porn?
You see, that's a major problem with North American culture, and it really surprises me that so few people recognize it.
Like woodworking? Build your own picture frames.
People have made the same argument about ficional novels, movies, and tv shows.
I never said its a "noble form of meaningful expression", I said its an expression. Every bit as "meaningful" as the comic books slashdotters collect.
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
To which the parent responded:
I disagree. I see no harm in an adult with a fairly firmly-set value system playing games in the Doom/Quake*/GTA*/Postal genre. I see nothing hypocritical at all about that same adult denying access to such games to a 10 year old, or even a 16/17 year old youth.
I won't argue the point that SOME teens (very damned few, in my experience) are more mature than some adults. The fact of the matter is that it is a parent's right/responsibility to guide their kids into development of a sound moral framework to use as a guide in making life's decisions.
The problem is that too many parents cave in today when their 10 year old says "You do it, so it's not FAIR for you to not let ME do it." Sorry, gang "I'm the {Mommy|Daddy}" may not be fair, but that's the way it's SUPPOSED to be. Don't like it? Get married as soon as your state of residence allows and go pay your own way in life. If you want the same rights an adult has, shoulder the same responsibilities we do.
GOOD parenting is both the most difficult AND the most rewarding job you will face in life.
utter rubbish
Postal 2 is only interesting due to its violent nature. The general consensus is that the game is offensive but the design underneath the offenses is not solid enough to be worth a purchase.
you've given your personal example. Let me give a counter example : I remember a few years back when our youngest son (then 3 years old) had been playing in potted plants we have in the corner of our hall. I had a very long, tiring day at work, my wife was sick, and we had told him a few times before we didn't want him to play with those.
:-)
In a reflex I still regret, I grabbed him (he saw me coming, so it was not an unexpcected grab from behind) and gave him a single, solid clap on his bottom while i said in a loud voice : you know you're not supposed ot touch these !
The results frightened me completely : he freaked out, cryed his heart out and peed is pants (which he hadn't done since he was 2) There was a total, insane panic in his eyes and he yelled for his mom like as if i was cutting his balls of...
but that was not the scariest part. That was when it took days for him to be sweet again to me. I had (and now have again) a very very good bond with my kids. I can talk to them about everything even some stuff that they don't tell their mom (and vice versa
During those days, he did nothing wrong, didn't touch those plants, didn't break anything, didn't do anything naughty, finished his plate... pefect... He was like an angel. But an angel that was prety damd scared of me and wouldn't let me hug him.
Dude : it has cost me blood, sweat and tears to bring our relation back to normal, and I have NEVER ever hit our kids again.
Now when he does something fancy, I take him apart and talk it through. Okay, he looks at me with a "oh comeon dad I got the message, stop preaching man". But quite often, a few hours or even days later, he comes over to me and admits "yeah, I was pretty stupid back then." and we can both laugh about it.
I don't expect him to say "sheesh, thanks for pointing out to me how stupid I am and how smart you are, dad" but then again, I guess you never said that to your dad either after he put his belt back on ? Hitting is the easy way. Talking to your kids every day, even when you're tired and they're a royal pain in the ass is the most rewarding way.
When will I end this grieving ? When will my future begin ?
And so we start a child-rearing pissing contest. Come on people, every child is different.
Everything works for some kids.
Nothing works for all kids.
The most important thing is to know your child, and what he responds to. Trying to tell other people what works for a child you've never even met is silly.
He decided to just watch the government, and kind of scale it down to size, and run his life that way. --Laurie Anderson
Classic baby-boomer mentality. So the kid was afraid of you for a couple days? So what?
My grandparents...the "Greatest Generation"...they knew how to take care of children. You just let them run loose and discover things for themselves, but whne you catch them fuck up, you let them know it (with a broken broom handle).
My parents, on the other hand, treated me like I was the fucking Prince of the Universe. You have no idea how this fucked up my head. I was a wuss and crybaby. I thought I was above everyone. All because they tried to be my friend instead of my parents. It wasn't until I got into high school and had some sense knocked into me by some larger classmates that I started turning around. The way I see it, I raised myself from then on. I develpoed a sense of respect and humility that I never had as a child.
Sure I'm always hearing baby-boomers complain about how rough they had it when they were growing up...but that's how it should be. Kids today are too damn spoiled because their parents decided they weren't going to raise their children the way they were raised. So instead they do the complete opposite. Just look at the all the school shootings going on. These kids do this because they grow up without any sense of humilty. They can't take it when bad shit happens to them.
You say it cost you blood, sweat and tears? Hell, the kid's your son. My dad threw me against a wall once (later on in my life...I think it was a "moment of weakness" for him), but I still love him. Sure I hated his guts for a while and I was afraid to go near him, but those emotions only last momentarily.
I say forget all this pseudo-science, psychobabble bullshit and bring back the yard stick.
Actually, it depends on the child. Kids are unique individuals. They're not like little mass-produced robots that only function according to a fixed set of commands.
A few of my friends have children that are generally pretty calm and mild-mannered. Punishing by spanking isn't really necessary, and probably just hurts the parent more than it does the child. (EG. After a spanking, you have to endure the kid screaming and sobbing, and possibly even putting on a show of ignoring you completely for the next 30 minutes or so.) If a "go sit in the corner for 5 minutes" or "Stop that, or you're going to lose privilege Y!" is effective, great!
On the other hand, yes, some kids won't respond to anything less than spanking. Sometimes, it's because they're at an age where they want to test their limits. If parents won't take things to the level of spanking, the child keeps piling on worse and worse behavior, trying to provoke some sort of response. (Eventually, they just decide they can do anything they want without consequences more serious than threats that don't get backed-up with actions.)
One big problem, nowdays, is with people too concerned with what "the other parent" is doing, and not enough with their own lives. Do I think twice before punishing my daughter in public? Unfortunately, yes! I shouldn't have to - but ignorant people out there will file complaints, report you to store security, or any number of boneheaded things.
Just last week, I barely escape a big incident over nothing at the local WalMart store. I went in with my (18 month old) daughter to buy her some clothes and get some food items. When the cashier rung me up, my kid started fussing (wet diaper), so I was distracted. She bagged everything for me, but when I went to grab the bag I thought she put the clothes in - she stopped me, saying "That one's not yours!"
She was already ringing out a guy behind me who was also buying some clothes - so I figured it must have been my mistake, and I left. When I got to the car, I saw the clothes weren't in my bags at all - even though I just paid for them. I wasn't going to try to run back in with my fussing daughter (and she was more calm sitting in her car seat anyway) so I left her in the car and ran back in.
It wasn't more than a minute, but when I got back to my car, security was already there, starting to write up some kind of report, and a lady was talking to the guy about the "kid abandonned in the car"! Come on, people! I can understand trying to be helpful and all - but don't jump to conclusions about something you know nothing about. At least spend a few minutes making sure the parent isn't right around the corner before filing complaints.....