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Could 'Fire Paste' Replace Shuttle Tiles?
pipingguy writes "Troy Hurtubise, of bear suit fame, claims to have invented a physics-defying substance called fire paste. "I could coat the belly of the NASA space shuttle with fire paste for $25,000 (US), instead of the $60 million it costs for them to put tiles on it," Hurtubise said. "It can stand up to the heat of re-entry to the earth's atmosphere, and then they can simply wash it off.""
Normally Im one for progress at almost any cost, but after losing both lives and practically our space program with the loss of Columbia, I'd want to see this new past tested thoroughly OUTSIDE of a lab, meaning in actual field tests. Put up a few rockets and let'em re-enter with the paste. At 60 mil for the tiles, it's worth it to invest in this tech by testing properly. fp?
Seems to me that the best part of this would be that it might be able to be applied *in space* should something happen during launch!
how easily does it wash off?
Sure, they don't have to worry about water vapor duing re-entry but what about other applications?
Fire suits, anyone?
Cruising the internet on my TI-99/4A @ a whopping 300 baud!
Of course, it probably still wouldn't be suitable as a reentry heat-shield material without further development --- it may be able to cope with the heat, but is it mechanically tough enough to cope with mach 25 winds? You don't want to get half-way through reentry and discover your heat shield blowing off in the breeze.
"I could coat the belly of the NASA space shuttle with fire paste for $25,000 (US), instead of the $60 million it costs for them to put tiles on it," Hurtubise said. "It can stand up to the heat of re-entry to the earth's atmosphere, and then they can simply wash it off.""
First of all, it's not simply a matter of applying a 'big blowtorch' to the underside of the shuttle. There's a lot of laminar flow that accompanies the heat and for something that can be 'washed' off, I'd be interested in both viscosity and lateral movement.
The other aspect is that plasma entered the interior of the port wing; it's not about the heat shielding failing so much as it was about having a bloody great hole in the leading edge. I'd be surprised if the paste could bridge that.
Oddly Draconis
Too cynical to live, too stubborn to die.
(I know he calls it a paste. but if you look at the pictures the material he tests is has been cured into tiles.)
Use it on the shuttle? Yeah, great...
But this stuff seems to have a few more uses. In fact, if it's real, I'd think it would really be one of those few world-changing inventions. A few astronauts died in the shuttle, but think of how may people in the world die or suffer from fire or heat related injuries.
And it's cheap!
This stuff will be used in household items, cars, planes, computers, clothing, Hollywood, the military, and probably a lot more.
Could it really be? If so, this would probably be bigger than NASA's own Velcro.
"The fire insurance industry is also interested, Hurtubise said, and has asked him to demonstrate."
If I could coat my house with this stuff, and be sure that it would never go down in flames, why would I still need fire insurance?
So, they're interested? I'll bet.
I can go down to my local Sports Authority, walk to the camping section, and buy a product called Fire Paste. It's actual the opposite of this. It's like consumer grade napalm. My friends and I used it for fireworks and such. Odd how this fire paste won't heat up. Why not call it cool paste, or something similar?
Th
10+ years ago I recall hearing about a guy who created a very similar sounding stuff I think he called it 'Starlight'. I recall a demo where he had an starlight coated egg resisting a blowtorch I think he was a hairdresser and had made it out of common hairdressing equipment/chemicals
I recall he refused to patent it (cos big buisness would steal it) and apparently refused some very lucrative deals.
Hmm google is my friend I have some references they guy was called Maurice Ward it was called starlight here are some references:- ref1 ref2
A few years ago, I saw a TV report about a British inventor who had discovered something very similar by mixing a cocktail of chemicals together. There were several big chemical companies trying to buy it from him, but because they were only offering him a fraction of what it was worth, he was keeping it to himself. He reckoned the rate at which it radiated heat grew exponentially with temperature, so it never got hot.
If I seem short sighted, it is because I stand on the shoulders of midgets
But, no offense, the guy sounds like home-workshop tinkerer, not a scientist -- and maybe a bit of a self-promoter too. So his suggestion that his paste could replace all the tiles on the space shuttle? Well, I wouldn't take his claim seriously if he didn't demonstrate he understood the specifications for space shuttle tiles first.
NASA didn't invent velcro.
"I'm so moist I'm sticking to the leather." -Kermit the Frog on The Late Late Show
I believe the subject of the phrase is the shuttle, not the paste.
So, to edit:
becomes :I assume this fire paste is really just a ceramic after it's been cured.
Then, the issues are the same as with the tiles: can it withstand
- incredible heat
- hypersonic wind loading
- vibrations during take-off
These are not easy requirements to satisfy simultaneously.IIRC, the tiles have to be inspected and some of them replaced after every flight.
"Provided by the management for your protection."
Hey, could this stuff be used to isolate some compartments inside of a PC? Let's say I put some sheetmetal to isolate sections of the PC: motherboard, HD, powersuply.. etc. Now if I coated the sheetmetal with this stuff then can I be assured that each compartment will have an ISOLATED heating problem? If this is true it can help reduce the total number of fans needed in some PCs that have lots of components. For example, if I have a server with lots of drives (that I know are going to get hot) then I can isolate the drives, give them their own cooling method, and then just use normal cooling (simple CPU fan + back-of-tower-fan) to take care of the rest of the case. I wouldn't have to worry about the heat from the HDs going over to the MB/RAM... right? Please let me know if what I just said is dumb! :o)
Here's a selling point:
"It dissipates heat at an exponential rate, it's beyond belief, and I have no idea why it does, all I know is that it does."
I'm sure NASA is jumping at the chance....
I'm not saying it's not worth the look. Someone needs to debunk it.
"Only one thing, is impossible for god: to find any sense in any copyright law on the planet." Mark Twain
Go to http://www.exn.ca/dailyplanet/view.asp?date=10/6/2 003 and check out the fire-paste segment.
He adds that fire paste can handle such high temperatures, that had the steel skeleton holding up the World Trade Towers been sprayed with it, the buildings wouldn't have imploded after being hit by two airliners Sept. 11
The WTT skeleton had insulation that could withstand high temperatures, but it didn't withstand the mechanical stripping caused by tons of metal careening into the building at hundreds of miles per hour. His 'paste' would fare no better.
"It dissipates heat at an exponential rate, it's beyond belief, and I have no idea why it does, all I know is that it does."
Its energy dissipation varies as T^4, (Stefan-Boltzmann law), and he hasn't tested it well enough to differentiate between an e^T curve and a T^4 curve.
"I'm so moist I'm sticking to the leather." -Kermit the Frog on The Late Late Show
You've really got to watch Project Grizzly to get a feel for this guy. He's a hard working, confident kind of guy. He's also a bit of a nutbar, and not always practical.
For example, he tested his bear-proof suits with swinging logs, baseball bats, and firearms - but failed to ensure he could walk in the suit before going out for a live test with bears.
He very well could have a great thing here, but I think we need to rely on someone else to come up with reasonable feasibility tests.
Let's not stir that bag of worms...
"It can stand up to the heat of re-entry to the earth's atmosphere, and then they can simply wash it off."
But for the fact that atmospheric reentry isn't a handheld blowtorch, but friction. i.e. it does a pretty good job of "washing off" most things that hit it, to the point of disintegrating them.
Might be good under the tiles mind you. I do carry a healthy skepticism of inventors who crow to the media in his particular fashion, but assuming it stands up to rigorous testing, great.
I've finally had it: until slashdot gets article moderation, I am not coming back.
I suspect they do other testing, including:
Water resistance. Not only so it doesn't wash off on rainy days, but doesn't absorb water so that freezing causes it to crack.
Free oxygen erosion. Low earth orbit exposes the leading edge of spacecraft to free oxygen (O, not the stable O2), which tends to 'rust' things quickly.
Thermal coefficient of expansion matching to the aluminium body, so it doesn't flake off. If it isn't matched, then you need a good adhesive system.
Impact resistance. Does it chip or flake? You don't want a catastrophic failure mode (a super high-speed micrometeroite should make a hole instead of shatter the whole thing)
Weight. They stopped painting the booster tank and saved a lot of weight. Current shuttle tiles are foam-like in weight.
Repairability. Do you need to resurface the whole shuttle for the slightest chip, or is it fixable?
Lastly, NASA wants a proven scientific theory of operation... something better than "It dissipates heat at an exponential rate, it's beyond belief, and I have no idea why it does, all I know is that it does." All things dissipate heat at an exponential rate - heat flow is usually related to a difference in temperatures, so as an object reaches the temperature of its surroundings, the heat flow slows down to aproach zero. That's pretty basic to understanding heat flow, and not novel.
HIV Crosses Species Barrier... into Muppets
Neat...
That
"It can stand up to the heat of re-entry to the earth's atmosphere, and then they can simply wash it off."
is derived from
"I can smear it on my face like this, it can stand up to the heat of this blowtorch, like this, and then I can simply wash it off. Wow. I'm sold! Call now and quote this number..."
All things in moderation; including moderation
durring the X-15 program one of the contractors(i think dupont) created a surface coating that was sprayed on and then washed off after the flight.
it was shown to help, but had side effects. in the high heat/airspeed test the windows were covered in a white ash. the pilot could not see to land.
What's the density of the cured material? If you are flying this on a spacecraft, it doesn't matter how high a temperature it will stand; if it's too heavy to let the machine get to orbit you can't use it.
Scientists restrict study to entire physical universe; creationist
What is the mass of this paste per unit area protected, relative to the mass of the shuttle tiles? After all, if this stuff is ten times heavier it really doens't matter how much cheaper it is.
What is the strength of this material? If it is ten times more prone to shattering than shuttle tile it is no good.
Furthurmore, I could hold a big block of steel in my hand, and blowtorch it for a few seconds, and it will be cool. Now, put that same steel in a furnace for several minutes.
The single best demonstration this guy could do that would REALLY show if it were a better solution than shuttle tile would be to coat a box with this stuff, put a raw egg in the box, put the box in a furnace for a few minutes, then withdraw the egg.
www.eFax.com are spammers
Isn't this what asbestos does? Maybe
his causes cancer also!
With the low cost of fire paste, we could spray it all over the forest from airplanes. Then the forest fires would never destroy our cottages.
I'm sad the modded-up comments so far have been "no you can't put it on the shuttle." I'm intrigued by this guy's invention and apparently the demonstration conducted by the Discovery Channel group was impressed. I'm sure if I get to see it on TV I'll be impressed to. He's not using dirty tricks or sneaky wording. He's saying "this stuff resists heat transfer amazingly well" and points out some big possibilities for it. He doesn't know why it works, it just does. And the best comments so far are "it's not perfect".
/. crowd. But I always felt those who reply to the science articles might have more scientific thoughts than "xxx is dead" tripe.
Where is the discussion of its chemical properties and composition and ideas of other uses. Suppose someone invented a reverse material that transferred heat very well in only one direction. If the slashdot crowd is supposed to be so much more intelligent and scientifically oriented than the lay public, why is everyone sniping at the guy and not using their brains?
Of course, I may have answered the question by mentioning the
Stop the Slashdot Effect! Don't read the articles!
If I were to break out with some stupid article about how I have a thinking, speaking AI machine made from data contained on the Bubble Gum Crisis DVDROM collectors edition and old transistor radios, you thinking /.ers would probably discredit me utterly.
I have a picture of a torch impinging on a paint brush appliable refractory material for use in aerospace applications sitting on my desk. I have spoke to the guy who's hand is in the picture with the torch and the insulation. I have a collection of 1" square of the material and I am looking at them as I type.
That some fellow has a picture of a material that is heat resistant is no great feat. How long can he hold is hand there? How long can the material be expected to last? Can the material stand up to rain? Can the material withstand a change in temperature from 30K to 2030K in a short time span?
Sorry buds! There is all manner of refractory materials and there have been since humans started using fire. This is a mature industry where advances are being made by serious engineers and scientists. This guy might have something "locked in safe" somewhere in the US, but I doubt it.
The part about his claims that rings absolutely false is this: "It dissipates heat at an exponential rate, it's beyond belief, and I have no idea why it does, all I know is that it does."
If this material actually dissipated heat at an "exponential rate" (a meaningless use of the phrase meant to impress the ignorant) it would dissipate that heat right into his hand and burn the hell out of him. The correct way to describe the material's performance is to say it has a low coefficient of thermal conductivity, i.e. it is an insulator.
The picture is probably a true representation of his little demonstration. I doubt it represents this guys creation. It certainly doesn't represent anything that plain old boring engineers don't already know.
Later,
JC the AC
This is especially pertinent since I've seen video of shuttle tiles being pulled out of a blast furnace and being cool enough to handle while still glowing on the inside from the heat.
Maxim: People cannot follow directions.
Increases in truth directly with the length of time spent explaining them
Ship: Sir, we will be entering the atmosphere soon.
Enemy: Ready those water baloons!
Enemy2: Yes sir! (Boing)
Enemy2: Oh no, the giant rubber band broke!
Enemy: Looks like they got lucky today.
Does this really break the rules of physics? If it does, which ones? Why would something *have* to absorb energy?
It is possible that exposed to radiation, heat, cool, and/or vacuum could kill it. This will have to undergo some major testing but what has not in the space industry. It would be great if it works, though. This would be very useful for a landing on mars or even venus.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
This was posted by an AC down at 0, so here it is for others to see...
2 003 and check out the fire-paste segment."
"Go to http://www.exn.ca/dailyplanet/view.asp?date=10/6/
Check out the video, very cool stuff. "I don't know why it works, I don't know how it works, but it works."
Interestingly enough, he developed this stuff to help heat-proof his "bear suit".
"Tomorrow's forecast: a few sprinkles of genius with a chance of doom!" - Stewie Griffin
Most substances that aren't solid, and many that are, outgas like crazy in the mostly-vacuum environment of space. If this "fire paste" does, then what's left when it comes time for re-entry may not work as well as it should, or even work at all.
don't a lot of house fires start from the *inside*? I wonder if there's any resale value on an empty shell of "fire paste"...
Slap a coat or two on. Let it go for a while. Add a few more coats. Does it promis not to harm clear coats?
Someone hates these cans.
I'd like to see a bear suit coated with fire paste.
This would solve the problem of those nasty flaming bears that attack me all too often.
This would be great around the office.
- Zav - Imagine a Beowulf cluster of insensitive clods...
If I lived in an area prone to forest fires, I'd sure love to be able to spray a coat of this stuff on the roof whenever a fire raged in the area. Many of the house fires that result from forest fires start when embers are blown onto rooves, and it sounds like "fire paste" could be a good and cheap defense. And rain might wash it away when it's no longer needed.
I can't believe how serious you are all taking this. Believe me, it doesn't work. I saw Project Grizzly. I saw the bearsuits. This guy is the most bumbling, goofiest engineer I've ever had the sheer pleasure of mocking. And if it does work, then he's the LUCKIEST most bumbling, goofiest engineer that I've ever had the sheer pleasure of mocking. And, oh yes, I will still mock. Thank God for Troy Hurtubise.
he's heating the paste on a tile and on a helmet. i bet he just bought some nasa tiles and heated those with the torches. he probably could have made one into a helmet.
;-)
then the fire paste would work fantastically.
to see what hes got...
;). Its final solid state is key apparantly stating that in other words mix it too much and its worthless, not dry enough and its no good either.
If you watch the video its not a "spray paint" like substance, its a paste with I imagine unlimited thickness whereas the outter shell of it does most of the work.
Thermal transfer and heat dissapation doesnt even apply here, rather it outright Reflects heat.
Different then a ceramic tile because those actually absorb heat.
Interesting to to hear him say he researched what MIT and Harvard were up to in materials development of the such and took that knowledge and made a homemade brew of those known heat resistance substances...
As far as the durability of the material in high velocities like the shuttle or other I would question that.
Still 3600 degrees is 600 better than ceramics.
As far as coating building frames ect, sure why not but dont think it would have stopped the WTC from collapsing, or even your house from burning down.
Add to that he doesnt even know what hes got, a physical chemist would be able to analize it and even "tweak it" for better resistance I bet(although after 3200 batches he might be close
You can always add to the mix a new substance for new properties and applications so who knows what will come of this later on to.
But it could turn out that what hes got or something very similar to it has already been thought of or invented but rejected for whatever reasons. That would be my guess. But then again you always wonder why something hasnt been invented because it was so simple in the first place.
I think Fibrefax was made by Corning as a refractory that could be spread with a spatula. It was make with kaolin fibre. You could spread it an inch think inside a barrel and put a burner inside bringing it up to around 1500 F and the paint wouldn't burn on the outside of the barrel. We were doing raku and didn't need it higher. It isn't as good as batting though, and since it is kaolin, it melts at about 3000 (a faint memory.)
Any preoccupation with ideas of what is right or wrong in conduct shows an arrested intellectual development. (Wilde)
in order to have a bona fide ceramic, it has to be vitreous.
mineral components melt and crystalize. if the crystals are long enough, they are very durable because they interlock like crazy.
come to think of it, apetite which is tooth stuff doesn't get fired. ha ha
boy woult that hurt
Any preoccupation with ideas of what is right or wrong in conduct shows an arrested intellectual development. (Wilde)
alumina and kaolin makes porcelin
could put urinals all over the outside of the shuttle
the other stuff was called Kao Wool, that's the batting like you would use in the attic. It would have an astronomical R value, ha ha.
You could put your finger through the kaolin refractory paste even after heating to 1500 or 1800 F
Any preoccupation with ideas of what is right or wrong in conduct shows an arrested intellectual development. (Wilde)
would cause fire proof exterior to melt into a puddle
the insurance industry has no interest in the stuff
i know that for certain
Any preoccupation with ideas of what is right or wrong in conduct shows an arrested intellectual development. (Wilde)
from the Slashdot archives
December 1903
Can you imagine these nutter bicycle mechanics
claiming they flew! Langley has spent almost a million dollars on flight unsuccessfully. I think Orvile and Wilbur Wrong are cranks we can safely ignore.
Why is everybody attacking this person? This invention appears to be valid and due to the low cost may end up being a useful product. He lets people actually test the invention. He admits that he doesn't understand how it works. I'd describe that as being truthful.
The space shuttle claims, as everybody else has pointed out, are dubious because of the extreme environment in which the shuttle operates. But, other than that, it looks like a useful invention.