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Are Linux Zealots Terrorists?
pair-a-noyd submitted this one choice piece of flamebait, I'll just quote it ".. I have a hard time seeing the Zealots as any different from
terrorists because of the nature of their threats. I expect one of them
-- or perhaps a group of them -- will go too far at some point and do
significant damage to the open-source movement, the ongoing litigation
with SCO or their employers.
I strongly believe that if September 11 showed us anything, it was that
zealots of any movement represent a huge risk to that movement because
zealots do not consider the repercussions of their actions" Like the zealots he speaks of, he goes to far, but he does make legitimate points that the Open Source community has wrestled with in the past.
I'm sure if I check back in 10 minutes there'll be a couple of hundred comments from people who can't help themselves, but really - JUST LEAVE IT BE.
YHBT, HAND
Yes, Linux enthusiasts are just as fanatic as terrorists. What this moron failed to realize is where terrorist are obsessed on hurting and promoting Fear (uncertainty, and doubt?), Linux zealots are obsessed with making better software, helping people and making the world a better place.
When was the last time a terrorist helped a little old lady cross the road?
FLR
Our generation has a new bottom of the flamebait barrel. When somebody compares something to September 11 in an attempt to bolster their own argument, move on.
www.HearMySoulSpeak.com
I have a hard time seeing the Zealots as any different from terrorists because of the nature of their threats...
A zealot will tell you you're going to Hell. A terrorist will try to send you there.
!#@%*)anks for hanging up the phone, dear.
The English magazine Private Eye has a section called Warballs which pokes fun at the medias desire to relate anything and everything to Sept 11. Just another instance of lazy journalism.
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What could have been a valid critique of a technology movement devolved pretty fast when the comparison to terrorists was made.
How many people have Linux "Zealots" killed in the past year?
*crickets chirping*
One would think that after 9/11 we would have a real definition of what a terrorist is and what they do. Instead what we have is too many people willing to use the word "terrorist" as it suits them and their goals.
Pretty stupid.
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Cruising the internet on my TI-99/4A @ a whopping 300 baud!
It is hard to respect a writer who equates Linux zealots, with people that seek nothing less than the complete failure of our modern society and who are willing to fight to death for it.
I think the writer missed out on a big group of people: He seemed to go straight from describing a group of platform-neutral people (Pros) to people who promote Linux without any factual backup (Priests). That's skipping out on a whole lot of people who really prefer the Linux platform for many good reasons. I would consider myself fairly platform-neutral, but I at least respect those that favor Linux over the other platforms.
I think the writer has invoked a modern day version of Godwin's Law: replacing the use of Nazis with Terrorists.
Just look at the SCO coverage. The most reasoned arguments on /. get modded up to 5, and the media occassionally (not often enough though) picks up on these responses.
That is a GOOD thing.
Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken - Tyler Durden
However, in this case... Heh, maybe I should rethink that :)
Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken - Tyler Durden
Let's see: We're Linux zealots, say. There's two possibilities:
1. We're NOT terrorists: In which case, this article is Flamebait. Responding to this is a waste of our time. Time that can go to improving our ever evolving baby -- Linux. Conclusion: Don't respond.
2. We ARE Terrorists : (I know, I know,, just assume so, bite the bait for a sec.) Why should we waste our time giving up the game? We don't reveal our hand. Of course, we're a special band of Terrorists. Ones that try to kill IGNORANCE, ARROGANT CORPORATES, BIGOTRY, etc, etc. Anyway, Conclusion: Don't respond.
TO sum up: Don't respond to this Flamebait. Move on. Learn the lesson not to rely on Slashdot for Meaningful News That Matters To Nerds. Learn that these days, even articles can be Falmebait, let alone Replies.
Move on....
-
If you keep throwing chairs, one day you'll break windows....
He actually makes some very valid points:
On Enderle's planet, there is noone between the Pros and the Priests, anyone reasonable just buckles down and buys Windows to help pay his salary.
This would have looked rather less like a troll if he had actually bothered to substantiate the 'threats' and 'lies' he's received. We all know there are idiots out there on all sides, and we might have just nodded in agreement and passed on. I don't see Enderle saying that Microsoft is bound to fail because of some of the loonies on the MSFT stock boards.
Also, if Microsoft wasn't making license payments to SCO to support its IP racket, if it didn't have a history of destroying competition by any underhanded means necessary, if it had at least taken the antitrust settlement seriously, its sock puppet 'analysts'would be better able to claim the moral high ground.
It has become fashionable to label everyone who has an extreme point of view on nearly any subject a "terrorist."
Make no mistake about this -- Linux advocates are not terrorists. They are zealots. By definition, a zealot is a fanatically committed person. That could describe any number of people -- Cubs fans, religious folks, car enthusiasts, bikers, and yeah, Linux fans. Do any of the aforementioned folks necessarily blow up people, depriving them of life or liberty in order to propogate their aims? No. Therefore, they are not terrorists, they are zealots.
It bears saying that it is extremely provocative to label someone a 'terrorist' and the term is akin to calling someone a Jew in 1930's Germany, or a Communist in 1950's America. In the case of Linux "terrosits" the idea is specious and slanderous on it's face: the writer is imply because some people go over the top and do things that embarass a larger group that they are the equivilant of murderers.
Get real.
I give you, Steve the Super-Villian - http://www.ubergeek.tv/switchlinux/
A good, humourous, yet only-slightly exaggerated from a (small?) portion of the Linux community...
I don't think zealots are what we should be afraid of, what we should fear are fundamentalists.
"You have to be realistic about terrorism. Ya gotta be a realist: Certain groups of people--Muslim fundamentalists, Christian fundamentalists, Jewish fundamentalists, and just plain guys from Montana--are going to continue to make life in this country very interesting for a long, long time. That's the reality. Angry men in combat fatigues talking to God on a two-way radio and muttering incoherent slogans about freedom are eventually going to provide us with a great deal of entertainment." - George Carlin
Join the Free Software Foundation
That's an excellent point. I prefer the best solution for the problem - is it my fault that I rarely find a problem where the best solution is M$?
I'm a strong advocate of open source platforms, yet I have the factual knowledge to back up my statements. So where does that leave me in his rant?
It's bad enough that (in certain environments) anyone who dares say "Linux" (let alone repeat it) is branded a zealot. To foster this perception through either overt ignorance or personal agenda, as this writer has done, is simply reprehensible.
On the other hand, it's a tactic SCO will likely admire greatly.
If you're not living on the edge, you're just taking up space!
I'm just wondering, why is this considered flamebait and why should it be ignored?
It seems to me, I could be wrong, but anyone that says anything critical about open source or Linux or the GPL is instantly attacked. I am speaking from an outside position and am only observing, but is Open source and Linux that perfect that it cannot stand critics that may (or may not) have valid points?
I'm not saying that the writer of the original email was right or wrong, but it's instantly dismissed...almost to the point of "don't even read it, it's flamebait". Well, I did read it and his point about zealots from ANY walk of life do have the potential of spinning out of control and going into illegal and dangerous areas. I said potential...I'm not saying that they WILL do this. Just that the potential is there.
Ask yourself how many people thought in their heads about attacking SCO when they dropped the bombshell of theirs months ago. Maybe the thought was only "boy, they're playing with fire in the Linux community, I sure hope someone teaches them a lesson not to mess with us". Or something similar.
Again, I'm speaking as an outsider only observing. I don't use Linux, though I've used it in the past and I'm a great admire of it. Nor am I a programmer or system admin. I also like Mac OSX, but these two operating systems don't cater to my love of video games as well as XP does. That's all. My job also doesn't involve using a computer at all, so again, I'm only observing the back and fourth of SCO and Linux as one would watch a football game. I'm rooting for Linux though.
"Music is everybody's possession. It's only publishers who think that people own it." - John Lennon.
I too reject Godwin's law, but that doesn't mean it isn't insightful on occasion (certainly vis-a-vis a Microsofties compensation for his own inadequacies (both physical, no doubt, and certainly those of his employer^H^H^H^H^H religion, Microsoft, in his comparison of 9/11 terrorists and mass murderers to GNU/Linux volunteers and enthusiasts). Even a broken clock tells the correct time twice a day, after all.
... does pointing that out constitute "running afoul of Godwin's law" merely because a great number of Bush's contemporaries would take exceptions (I suspect a great number of Pol Pot's followers would take exception to his comparison as well)?
I don't think Godwin's Law was ever meant to apply to non-trivializing comparisons to Hitler.
Godwin's law was never meant to apply to anything. It was a joke, a humorous aside mocking the many flame fests that would arise in USENET discussion groups, particularly those of a political bent. It never was "true" in any real sense (many flame fests never invoked Hitler once, even in passing, and many invocations of the lessons of WW II didn't involve flame fests at all), it was merely a clever characterization of many of the more inane flame fests that arose at the time.
Saying Bill Gates is akin to Hitler runs afoul of Godwin's Law. Saying Pol Pot is akin to Hitler does not.
Comparing Pol Pot to Hitler is certainly legitimate. How about comparing the rise of the radical right in America, and perhaps even their poster child, Bush, to Hitler? The historical timelines are strikingly similiar, and the rhetoric shockingly so
Or, better yet (and perhaps less ambiguously), lets consider Microsoft and Bill Gates. Bill Gate's comment (or rather, the Microsoft advertisement) of
"One World, One Web, One Program"
bears a striking resemblence to Hitler's famouse
"Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" catchphrase.
(Translation: One People, One Empire, One Leader).
Does noting that similiarity, and drawing parallels between the mentalities that derived such rhetoric, run afoul of Godwin's law? If so, I would argue that Godwin's Law is, at best, humorous (as it was originally intended) and more commonly a terrible negative, as it is being used to blind us to many of the very apropos lessons of history, insuring thereby that said history will repeat itself yet again, this time perhaps in our very own back yard.
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
However, I find that these people you speak of who are critical of open-source or Linux, are often ignorant and confrontational, rather than being level-headed and understanding how different people may like different things.
Let's take Slashdot as an example. If you post a well thought-out post about Windows' strengths and it is on-topic for the debate, you will see very few flames, if any. However, most of the pro-Windows posts here are exactly that: Pro-Windows to an extreme, and they attract attention.
Not only are the pro-Windows, but they are also anti-open-source or anti-Linux, often stating that Linux is unnecessary, doesn't work well, is crap, etc. And they pull out the inevitable comparisons that are usually a result of Microsoft's FUD.
When a new security hole in a Microsoft product is posted on Slashdot, these people will start talking about how holes are only discovered "because Windows is more popular than Linux" or similar, which of course is an old and tired claim, especially considering the fact that open-source product Apache, which is more widely used than any other web server, has had far fewer security holes than Microsoft's IIS.
This will naturally attract negative attention, simply because they are posting flamebait. They may not know it, but that's what it is. It is an unsubstantiated claim based on nothing but Microsoft FUD.
So you see, these attacks you speak of against criticism of open-source or Linux are often ignited by ignorant rants by Microsoft apologists who post flamebait, either unknowingly, or fully aware of what they are doing.
Post valid criticism, and I am sure you will find that you will not be attacked.
And regarding the SCO matter, SCO is behaving more like a terrorist organization than any open-source group I know of.
Finally, why should this article be thrown in the trash? Have you read other articles by Rob Enderle? A short while ago, another article of his was posted on Slashdot, and I was amazed and left speechless in disgust at this man's incredible disregard for facts and common decency. Again, I am a relatively happy Windows user (although I recognize a huge number of problems in Windows as well), but Mr. Enderle is simply an ignorant, foolish troll.
So that is why he is attacked. Rob Enderle is an eternal FUD and garbage machine, spewing out nonsense and flamebait. Don't take his word for anything, but rather ignore him, or if you must read his drivel, check every single claim of his carefully.
Clever signature text goes here.
Shall we discuss Dresden, Hiroshima, Vietnam, or the bombing of the TV station in Serbia?
Most people in the Western media are certainly classifying attacks on US troops in Iraq, and IRA attacks like the ones in Hyde Park and Regents Park in 1982 as terrorist.
Seems to me that the label of "terrorist" is more usually applied to anyone who disagrees with the extreme right-wing viewpoint of governments such as that of the US. It is becomimg a catch-all word under which any kind of intimidation or injustice is justified under the same "end justifies the means" policies formerly enforced in Stalinist Russia.
Beyond the issue of terrorism, he talks about the possibility of a Linux zealot killing a Microsoft or SCO executive. I agree that it is entirely possible, unlikely, but possible. People have been killed because they listen to the wrong kind of music, have the wrong friends, or have the wrong color skin. Everyday people are killed for worshipping the wrong God.
This has nothing to do with zealotry. It has everything to do with bigotry and the fear that their way of life is threatened by those who are different. I suspect most violent acts of violence commited out of bigotry have been encouraged by cultural (micro- or macro-) mores. However, a societal fear of the different is insufficient to provoke wholesale bloodshed or terrorism. The society itself must encourage violence as a solution. For most (I hope), killing people is not in their nature, and is downright scary. Peer pressure and the knowledge that you will be a hero can overcome almost any fears.
There is of course, always the "lone gunman" who commits violence without the backing of the community. This individual is probably capable of killing over just about anything.
Are their bigots among the Linux/Free Software/Open Source communities. Undoubtedly. Are their individuals who fear the actions of Microsoft or SCO threaten their way of life. No question. Unlike the Klan, for example, the Linux community is generally not violent. Does a society based upon the notions of free speech and the common good encourage murder as a solution? For most of us, the closest we get to violence is a first person shooter.
It is entirely possible for a lone gunman to kill a Microsoft, SCO, RIAA, or MPAA executive. But this gunman is also just as likely to kill over a breakfast cereal.
If any of these executives were murdered, it is far, far more likely it would be by a jilted spouse or over inheritance money.
On the other hand, I am seriously surprised that no one has capped a spammer yet.
Finally, to compare the extreme enthusiasm and proselytism of some to the wholesale slaughter of 9/11 is disgusting and an insult to those who lost their lives and to their families.
You're confusing fanatics with terrorists here.
Terrorists are a subgroup of fanatics, a group that uses TERROR to reach their goals/obsessions.
Linux "zealots", fanatics whatever you name them, do not use terror to reach their goals. W.r.t. fanaticism they may seem alike, but not w.r.t. to the tactics they follow.
Even if one would accuse Linux zealots of illegal actions, that does not make them terrorists yet. Using terror is a subgroup of using illegal methods in general. E.g. stealing and terror are illegal, but stealing is not equal to terror.
So those who call Linux zealots terrorists need to take a dictionary and lookup the meaning of words.
Here's a direct quote from it:
"I have a hard time seeing the Zealots as any different from terrorists because of the nature of their threats."
Whatsamatta? You no speeka de English?
Terrorists kill people. They kill PEOPLE.
And he has a hard time seeing a difference between someone killing someone and someone arguing with him?
I think that qualifies as an "idiot".
even makes the interesting case that these folks aren't really for Linux as they are against a whole mound of stuff. Linux just happens to be something they can latch onto
3-4 years ago, Slashdot was certainly biased toward "Pro-Linux Zealots". Young, brash, and full of ideas, "World Domination", the revolution was NOW, Linux was the future. Windows was barely worth mentioning.
Over the years, however, I think the balance has shifted away from "Pro-Linux" to "Anti-Microsoft Zealots". Maybe this was because the revolution wasn't as immediate and swift as expected. Maybe the zealots matured into Priests. Maybe it was the editorial stance that publishes every MS newsbit it can find, or just that Linux was the latest rallying point for the ABM crowd.
Anyway, all of a sudden you get the disaffected OS/2, Amiga, and BeOS lusers jumping on the bandwagon. And hey, the great thing about being an anti-Microsoft zealot is that you don't even really have to stand FOR anything. You can sit there from XP and IE6 and tell the world how terrible Microsoft is, with the aura of inevitable failure for your cause. And I'd disagree that everyone in that crowd is young - some of them have been doing the same online act for years.
This encourages a lot of dull "zero sum" thinking. It's not enough that your side is winning, the other side has to be losing. Which in total lowers the quality of debate.
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