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Symantec Hit by Product Activation Glitch
An anonymous reader writes "According to this article, Symantec has hit a snag in their product activation scheme. On a certain machine, the software machine would always ask for the activation when the computer is started or restarted, despite the fact that they have thoroughly tested the scheme." According to the article, Symantec has finally managed to replicate the problem, and those hit by the bug are asked to contact Symantec's support channels. However, there's no mention of a fix yet.
This is showing evidence in favour that activation schemes are just plain bad business. E.g. the potential money you save by hindering piracy minus the lost sales due to pissed off customers => positive or negative?
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How many times do we need to see stuff like this?
Product activation only irritates legitimate buyers of software and all it does to software piracy is encourage hacking or mass duplication of enterprise edition CDs.
When you have legit customers using 'pirate' discs because the product activation features annoy them (or completely prevent them from using the software at all) you've just backed the slowest horse in the customer satisfaction race.
It's not like M$ didn't have the same snags over two years ago with XP. Product activation schemes are just another flavor of compatibility problem that the software/hardware industries have been having since the first geek stuck the first expansion card into bus slot. Try as they might, coders always miss SOMETHING and no matter how many hardware and software configurations are tested prior to release, there will always be more combinations than they can test.
Product Activation on products as important as antivirus apps is bad IMO. When average users are confronted with this, its easy for them to get frustrated with, and what happenes when average users get frustrated with software? They dont use it.
As with all stories about virri, here is the link to a FREE Antivirus app.
I have to assume that there are very many intelligent programmers at these companies. They have to know that everything they do can and will be cracked by pirates and that the cracks will be publicly available and easily accessible.
Is this just another case of managerial idiocy--the programmer grunts can't explain to the bosses that it is a futile misguided effort?
Or are the programmers just not really trying? Are they just going along with it because it's their job, rather than actually trying to make a quality product? (which, as it turns out, really isn't their job)
Actually, none of the last 10 stories are about Microsoft.
My theory: You're a moron.
This is exactly why I bought a copy of McAffee's. I didn't want to have to deal with product activation on windows with something that could protect my data. I think of product activation in this case as getting mugged in a street and having a cop stand by while your getting mugged cause you didn't give him the product key for the taxes you spent.
Although I heard from a relative that they got billed by McAffee's even after they told them to cancel their subscription for virus updates. I was told they were basiclly ignored by the company. So if you have to run windows be very careful what you get when your dealing with anti-virus packages.
It's sad really, all of this adds the the nightmare of maintaining a windows system. My linux box has none of these problems and was 10x easier to install then Windows XP. (Mandrake 9.1)
~~ Behold the flying cow with a rail gun! ~~
Remember back in the day, when copy protected 5 1/4" floppies were all the rage? The software would lock up and freak out. And within a couple of days somebody would post a program to copy the disk without the protection to your local BBS. Sometimes just copying the floppy would make the software more stable. Remember dongles (some companies STILL use them)?! Remember the dongle remover programs that tricked the program into thinking there was a dongle there when there wasn't?
Copy protection rarely stops piracy, and usually screws with the customer. Online activation is just the newest wave. Even M$ can't get it right. Has anyone met somebody who really really likes online activation?
IMHO, the best way to fight piracy is to have a great product that's reasonably priced. And the purchase price buys you support and updates. Each CD key can only register once for a support/update password, so those who pirate the software don't get support. And catching a pirated key/support p assword combination is as easy as running your HTTP logs through an analysis program.
No vendor will ever completely stamp out piracy, the best they can hope to do is making purchasing the product as attractive as possible.
It will always be negative. Always. Those who support copy protection tend to be in two camps - those who believe copy protection actually works (also known as the group who have their head so far up their arse that they can count their own teeth) and those who admit that copy protection doesn't prevent the pros copying the product, but it does prevent "casual piracy". The former group obviously has a connection with the planet more tenuous than that held by someone on an LSD trip so they can be ignored. The latter group sounds reasonable, until you realise that, on the whole, "casual piracy" isn't Joe Sixpack giving his mate a copy of the original CD, it's Joe Sixpack giving his mate a copy of the cracked CD. So It doesn't even have that much effect on so-called casual piracy either. So you piss off your customer base for a tiny reduction in copying, while the number of cracked versions in the wild will probably increase because the customers that actually want to use the product, but don't want to put up with the activation, will use the cracked version.
It is utter, complete and total stupidity.
The only explanations I can come up with for companues that actually waste their time on this crap is that the decision makers don't even know what these computer things are, they need their collective braincell examining or it's related to insurance premium reduction.
Symantec could always ask the warez community for a 'fix'. *grin*
Here is my product activation story, I frist posted this on my blog but I wanted to contribute it here too.
I had to reinstall one of the machines in the Web Cafe that I own. Since all the computers have the exact same hardware, the easiest way was to pull the hard drive from one of the PCs to the one that is acting as a file and print server.
Because of several reasons that I really don't want to explain right now, all the machines are running Windows XP Pro (yes, I did try using Linux first, no, the clients didn't want to use it.)
So I have all my licenses in order ( the BSA can come here and kiss my ass) and activated.
I swapped the hard drives, and of course, I knew I would had to activate Windows again. No problem right?
yeah, right
A message came up saying that I had exceeded the number of installations valid for my CD Key or something like that.
"Crap, now what? I paid for All these licenses!"
So I called the 1-800 number on the screen and tried to navigate the voice menu (I hate those). The system hanged on me twice before I could speak to a real person.
"What seems to be the problem"
I described to her the problem and I had to dictate her a 30 digit number that was on screen. After a while, she gave me another 30 digit number to type.
After we were finished I asked her If I would have to call every single time I needed to reinstall Windows. She said that she didn't knew.
If I have to call Microsoft every single time I need to reinstall MY machines, I am going to be very, very pissed.
With product activation, Microsoft is treating their customers, me in this case, like criminals. I could have downloaded a crack from the Net, but no, instead I spend 10,000 pesos (almost 1,000 dollars) in Microsoft software and I get treated like a criminal and waste my time calling them for permission to reinstall my machines.
This sucks.
As soon as I think my clients could start using a Linux desktop just by sitting in front of it and not needing any training, all Microsoft software is out from here.
Product activation sucks. The people who want to use software illegaly with product activation will find a way (cracks, serials, etc) and the only ones getting the finger are the honest paying costumers.
adl
My boring ramblings
Product activation doesn't faze the pirates, all it does is enrage legitimate buyers and drive them to competitors (or to pseudo-piracy themselves).
Last week I started setting up two new G5s for a client. They use QuarkXPress, the 6.0 version of which has adopted product activation (I've been steering all my clients to Adobe InDesign, but this particular one was willing but unable to switch for some reason). Any Mac people reading this who historically know how bad Quark is can see where this is going. Three times, I retyped the two codes on the sheet that came with the upgrade CD to activate the software, and I'm punching the damn things in correctly-- what do I get? "Invalid serial number." So I have to call these fucktards to get this shit activated, which I'm not doing until I have the second machine running, so I won't have to call a second time if that one fails as well. And after I clone the build to the second G5, I'll have to uninstall the Macromedia shit they got and reinstall and activate it, because that has activation as well. What a colossal waste of time.
And all of these companies make it such a fucking hassle to get a multi-user install code, that when I do a build destined for multiple machines I just have clients buy single-user licenses so they're covered, and I install the shit with warezed site-license codes. Why doesn't every company simply offer a web page where one can go, punch in all of their single-user codes for a given product, and in return get a single code good for that number of licenses? I don't have time to sit on hold with the Volume Licensing Department, I have work to do! And Quark, those fucking bastards CHARGE you to consolidate licenses, so I just used warezed multi-user codes for them, too, as long as my clients have enough single licenses to cover themselves. You can take my Office v.X Volume License Edition install CD when you pry it from my cold, dead hands-- no more typing in those stupid fucking codes from MS, either.
Oh, and speaking of MS, last week I had to add 5 CALs to a client's Terminal Server. Microsoft e-mailed us two "proof of purchase" type codes, and we had to go to a web site and punch them in to get the actual install code. But did that work? Noooo, I ended up having to call them to get the fucking code. All this jumping through hoops, I ended up billing the client for an HOUR, just to punch in a fucking 25-character license code. It's ridiculous.
As you can see, these anti-piracy features do nothing but waste my billable time (and ultimately my clients' money), and force legitmate users to turn to cracks and hacks and codez to get things done in an efficient manner.
... is what project it is talking about.
Time to fill in the facts, it would seem.
You know... I'd really like to know just how they think a customer's gonna be able to pull that off.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
However, there's no mention of a fix yet.
And when there is a fix it will only be available to users who have properly registered and activated their copy of the program.
-- MarkusQ
I've seen the same problem with public access terminals in a library. About half were linux, and the users would only use them if they had to (i.e., all the windows machines were in use).
Maybe, if you charge for use, you could try the following: start with a few linux machines, and charge less for using them -- and hang a little sign saying, "These machines use linux, they cost less because linux is free and windows is expensive". Make them as similar to windows as possible, with similar desktops and behaviors.
People might be willing to put up with something new if it will save them money. Just my $0.02.
Toronto-area transit rider? Rate your ride.
got to be such a PITA!
My company standardised on Office 2000 at a cost of > $300 per seat (10 seats). The original activation was sooo easy; we have an "always-on" Internet connection, the software connected to Microsoft's site and we were off to the races in about 30 seconds after installing.
As computers will do, several went belly up and I had to replace them. One needed nothing more than a bigger hard disk, but required re-authorization. In the meantime (less than 6 mos), MS had released Office XP. Wouldn't you know that activation was no longer so easy! The software kept coming up with "server not responding" and I was forced to call to get an authorization code. This activity included an extra copy that we bought that had never been activated! So much for their promises of being easy to authorize.
After a couple of 20 minute (mostly on hold) sessions to get authorization numbers, I tracked down a cracked copy of Office. I still keep the original licenses in a locked cabinet in case we are ever audited by the software gestapo, but I re-install off of the cracked copy to avoid the authorization. I personally think this is a forced upgrade policy.
We can no longer buy Office 2000. What do you think I'm going to do when we need a new copy of Office? Microsoft has forced me to pirate their software!
(posted as AC for obvious reasons)
Software copy-protection is like CD copy protection: its just not going to work: Anything you do to try and restrict software someone will find a way around it simply because every system out there is based on the same line of code:
if(product activated){run product} else {don't}
what ever method they use it all boils down to just running the program or not running it, at the most there will be afew extras that keep checking or individual modules activating, and the most complex might involve running some parts on a dongle but all these can essentially be bypassed. This is why microsoft is so keen to get TCPA off the ground because they know full well that they and most of their windows-developer friends' business models will colapse unless they can totally restrict the platform and have anyones ass if they try and bypass it.
This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
Symantec should realize their market, and for those who paid, expect to be able to use their product.
Luckily they don't have this yet on the macintosh side...
The interesting thing to me is that the big benefit of the current crop of antivirus programs, like NAV, is that they have this constant feed of updates to stay (nearly) up with the virus arms race. Symantec charges extra for that, and I think they should. I paid the fee gladly and they've keep viruses off my Winders machines purdy gewd.
So the real business model, like the one I rely on at my company, is recuring revenue. That's where the gold is because its multiplicitive with SKU sales. Mmm Mmm good!
End of the day, what Symantec should want people to pass around copies of NAV, but make it so it's only really effective if they keep it up to date through a subscription. I think in this case the subscription is warranted because NAV actually does have to do a substantial amount of work on a continuous basis. You are paying them to be your front lines in an ongoing battle and they, like many of the others, do a good job.
AOL got the model right when they put threw AOL disks out of airplanes for all those years just to get the subs. That model would work for antiviral software and many other things as well.
David Whatley
So, why complain when crappy software companies join the activation bandwagon?
Ditch them. Support their efforts by avoiding them by any means necessary until they start making good software or dry up and die, whichever comes first.
Symantec is nothing compared to the d day.. the day microsoft releases that longhorn bull crap. I bet that'll piss off the rest of the people who were thinking about whether to ditch xp or not.
Software activation is AWESOME. At least for us, "teh open-sore hax0rs" of evil openness.
On Symantec's website under their Norton SystemWorks 2004 Pro feature list it mentions this:
"NEW! Includes product activation procedure to ensure authenticity."
Just what I've always wanted -- huzzah! This by the way makes it to spot 2 on their feature list. Less marketoid bullshit please... Thanks.
You need the corporate version of Windows XP Professional. It does not require activation. (Moderators, don't moderate this as a troll. It's true, there is a corporate version that does not require activation.)
If things continue, think where they will go: 800 digits to do activation! If you make a mistake, the EULA says MS can come around with whips.
It doesn't work to have proprietary software. It is becoming more of a way to deliver hostility to honest people than a way to deliver a useful product.
Install Mandrake Linux. You boot from the CD. It asks you three questions (if you are connected to a network), and everything works. It's stable.
Advantages of Free, Open Source Software:
There are no tricks to get you to spend more. There's no one to be your enemy part of the time. When you try to get tech support, you can find people who are helpful, not arrogant, as in the case of Microsoft and Symantec. Open Office works very well and is less quirky than Microsoft Office. You don't need to worry about licenses and possible lawsuits if you install too many copies. There is no vulnerability of the week. There is no company representative lying about competing software. There are no closed file formats. There are no sneaky EULAs that change during security fixes, so that you must agree to a different contract after you have already made the decision to own the product. There are no security fixes that change the settings of your software, so that the new settings are less secure. (MS in case you haven't seen that one; it's Multiple Scuzziness.) With Open Source, you don't have to be business partners with people whom you would avoid if you saw them at a party.
On the other hand, proprietary software can be character building if you survive. You can make a scientific sociological study of how some people, when they get power, torture other people. And, when you arrive at the Pearly Gates, Saint Peter will say, "Proprietary software user? You've already been to Hell. Go directly into Heaven."
What they are trying to do is to make you and me - and people like us - who own multiple machines at home, buy a copy for each computer we own. ...
This is particularly irksome with products like Powerquest's Partition Magic. I mean really, how often does someone need to change the partitioning on a hard drive? I only find a need about once every few months on any given computer. PQ is outta their minds if they think people are going to buy a second copy of PM when they already have one doing nothing on another system.
The only explanations I can come up with for companues that actually waste their time on this crap is that the decision makers don't even know what these computer things are
No, it is comfortable, highly-paid executives trying to force oldthink onto a new problem. Product activation is destined to fail simply because it punishes the legitimate user.
I chose W2K a year ago rather than the fancier and "newer" XP for exactly this reason (me not being bright enough/have the time to run Linux), since I add hardware to my machine fairly often and didn't want the additional hassle.
Here's a free clue, from the article:
Some of the 1.2 million customers that have installed software maker Symantec's latest Norton PC security package have been unable to use the software because of new antipiracy technology, the company confirmed Thursday.
Ok, so 1.2mil is decent install base.
But...
"We thoroughly tested the technology," Smith said. "We ran extensive tests worldwide. You had well over 250,000 customers complete activation, and we didn't have any complaints about this."
So, 1/5'th of your install base did ok, and the rest did not?
Ok, yes I've taken this out of context, but even a second reading *still* seems to imply that 4 out of 5 dentist^H^H^H^H^H^H customers think product activation sucks.
Have you read the moderator guidelines? Well, have you, PUNK? (and I want a Karma: Gnarly option)
1. Called 1-800-745-6055. They said to call the download dept. at 1-866-285-6460
2. Called the download department. Their menu didn't sound anything like a download dept. After calling several times and figuring out the number to press to talk to a live human, I was told to call their subscription key dept. at 1-800-441-7234.
3. Called the subscription key department. Had to again figure out how to talk to a human. Finally I did and they forwarded me to an "activation support specialist".
4. Specialist tells me to call the download dept. as specialist only has access to physical CD keys, not the downloaded keys.
5. Called the Download Department. They told me to call the subscription key department. I told them I already did and I'm getting sick of the run around. They put me on hold. Finally said there is no way they can reset my key but they will either ship me a new CD out or let me download a new copy. They tell me it will take 10 days.
I have not received the new CD yet but I did get an email saying it was shipped out. So we will see if this fixes the problem.
//m
Look, Symantec does product activation to try and combat the estimated $500+ million in piracy of the Norton product line every year.
You can use the other open source alternatives if you want, but you won't get the immediate response that Symantec provides when large worms and virus outbreaks take place, nor will you get the other customer support provided by Symantec.
Software bugs happen, and it's impossible to test for every possibility (hardware configuration, etc). Just bear with them and let them fix it.
I do not purchase software that requires activation.