Slashdot Mirror
Transmeta Founder Talks Chips
gManZboy writes "Dave Ditzel, CTO and Founder of Transmeta (you remember Transmeta? weren't they supposed to kick some Intel booty?) sits down and speaks with Alpha and StrongARM chip designer Dan Dobberpuhl about the history of CPUs, where they're heading, and how the heck we'll keep up Moore's Law (if we can)."
(you remember Transmeta? weren't they supposed to kick some Intel booty?)
Uh, 1992 called. They want their slang back (and their processors, while you're at it.)
In an October 1998 article, EE Times named him one of "40 forces that will shape the semiconductor industry of tomorrow."
Hmm. I wonder what day in October 1998 that was supposed to be? I don't remember any big change.
I can't find it again, but I saw an interesting discussion that took the number of processors and embedded processors and the exponential growth of these devices and also the MIPS scaling and the energy per MIPS and compared it to the amount of energy in the sun. It was very clear that at some point you will run out of energy to power all the CPUs in a surprisingly short amount of time.
I wish I could find it again. (please let me know if you know)
I'd like to see the future of computing (and I do mean desktop computing) where the whole system has no moving parts. You read me, no spinning hard drive, only solid-state MRAM drives (or something.) No fans, not even in the power supply. 5W CPUs with the more processing muscle as today's 60W beasts. Oh, and OLED screens.
Well that's enough fantasizing for one day.
Although Frito's Scoops are a pretty good deal too... Who's Moore? ;P
Un-news
DOBBERPUHL The power is dissipated mostly in the transistors, either as they switch or as they just sit there and leak.
You can calculate the dynamic power dissipation with the formula P = CV2f, where V is the power supply, C is the capacitance that is being switched, and f is the switching rate. There are some additional factors, but fundamentally the dynamic power is given by that formula.
I'd like to see ... 5W CPUs with the more processing muscle as today's 60W beasts
It would be a fine thing, but there's no sign of it happening. Instead, the next desktop CPUs are due to dissipate more like 103 watts. It's sad.
Flash media, and not MRAM, thank you very much. As for fans, well, just look at some Mini-ITX boxes. And ask for something that can take a 1GHz ULV Pentium M, which outputs ~7W, and is as powerful as a 2GHz Pentium 4, which outputs ~60W. About your OLED screen, why not the billboard-grade eInk that can pull 70FPS (for your Intel Extreme Graphics 2 that can only pull 50 on a good day)?
The hard drive ... can ... be [replaced by] a ... flash disk [holding] 8 [GB}.
(1) You need more like 80-200GB to replace hard disk these days.
(2) Flash is appallingly slow writing and does not seem to be getting much faster anytime soon.
The hard disk is a moving target, and flash is not catching up.
We know who the real moron is, YOU ARE, you posted to the wrong article you dumb FSCK
whoops, looks like you got the wrong article
I am one of many. My idea is not unique, nor do I expect my voice alone to sway you. I speak in a chorus of opinion.
nm
Not that you did read the article, but here's a great paper (pdf) on low-power processor design with lots of graphs and equations showing where the architecture can tradeoff power to keep your silicon chips from melting.
The paper is out of Stanford paid for by your tax dollars.. Hopefully you won't notice the part about the address at Stanford University being the William Gates Computer Science Bldg
Well, I'm adding you to my Friend list anyway... ;-)
Isn't transmeta's new, super-kewl uberchip running at a wonder 1.1 ghz? Or was it 1.4?
try the previous one.
have a good day
How Moore's Law affects some computer users as measured in the time it takes to do something, like render a page of a document on the graphical screen in a window opened for a word processor, is shown as an example here:
- 1992 1.25 seconds
- 1993 800 milliseconds
- 1994 500 milliseconds
- 1995 320 milliseconds
- 1996 200 milliseconds
- 1997 125 milliseconds
- 1998 80 milliseconds
- 1999 50 milliseconds
- 2000 32 milliseconds
- 2001 20 milliseconds
- 2002 12500 microseconds
- 2003 8000 microseconds
- 2004 5000 microseconds
- 2005 3200 microseconds
- 2006 2000 microseconds
- 2007 1250 microseconds
- 2008 800 microseconds
- 2009 500 microseconds
- 2010 320 microseconds
- 2011 200 microseconds
- 2012 125 microseconds
When you are doing something interactively and have to wait the better part of a second (or worse) for each step to complete, it can be a big pain. A faster CPU would be nice. But once that wait gets down into a certain range (varys depending on what the task actually is), it won't really matter as much, if at all.There will still be needed even faster CPUs for many things. The use of cryptography will certainly be increasing and that is a big need for more CPU speed. Larger, more bloated (in terms of steps of code, in addition to RAM and disk space), operating systems and applications will need faster (and larger) CPUs, too (though many have learned to avoid these steps to avoid the costs of upgrades to software and hardware).
But the market for faster CPUs will gradually be leaving behind more and more people who do the kinds of things that just don't need it. The threshhold has been reached for many, and soon will be for many more. Hopefully new and expanded uses will keep (or restore) the markets in a thriving condition.
now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
They spend several paragraphs discussing NMOS capicitors in CMOS processes circa 1994, but apparently neither knew enough to speculate about MIM or Trench capacitor structures, two mature technologies used in DRAM. Yes, they were leading in to the gate leakage issue, but the substance of that boiled down to, "Leakage sure is a big problem." Their solution is low-voltage chips with fewer transistors. Revolutionary!
There's way more substance in press releases from Intel.
Who do you get to be an expert to tell you something's not obvious? The least insightful person you can find? -J Roberts
But at least he did repost it to the correct article
Moore's Law is probably a limited phenomenon.
<pedantic>
Probably? Assuredly, I would say. If transistor count continues to double every 2 years, with 42M transistors per CPU in 2000, you would have 43 billion in 2010, 44 trillion in 2020, 47*10^21 in 2050, and 53*10^36 in 2100. If that hasn't reached the number of atoms in the known universe, then keep counting years and it will.
</pedantic>
9 megabytes per second is not good enough for you?
I wish I could believe that spec is realizable in a real system, but even if so, no, it's really not good enough for me. I can push at least 5 times that into my hard disk, and if anything I want and need more, not less.
I notice you stopped your calculations in 2012, much like the Mayan Calendar. This clearly points to the end of time and the coming singularity when computers become sentient and take over the world.
ACM Queue... "Tomorrow's computing today"
so tomorrow, I get to look forward to more underpowered web servers?
Being a Moore, I can't help but comment on Moore's law. In my lifetime, there have been a number of unforseen and incredible advances that have helped Moore's law significantly, besides the usual annual technological improvements. Moore's law will continue to advance mostly because of these unforseen advances, and I believe that the annual technological improvements that have become commonplace will also continue. Long live progress!
stuff |
One of the best Transmeta features was supposed to be the replaceable "translator layer" code, so it could run as ix86, motorola, alpha, or whatever CPU you wanted. (so you could boot Amiga, Mac and PC stuff on the same box, just picking upload of proper code on bootup. But AFAIK only x86 translator code was ever created. Anybody knows about progress with other platforms?
45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
are you guys saying that a CPU only uses as much power as a regular lamp [bulb]
Absolutely. But grab a 60-100W light bulb that's been on a few minutes (PLEASE DON'T REALLY!) and tell me what it feels like. That is one heck of a lot of wasted heat energy.
BTW, the body heat of one human is also approximately the same as this figure, and look how much food (energy) we use up each day. It's just spread over a lot of surface area so the peak temperature isn't as high.
OK, this is off topic, but there is no appriate forum for this - has anyone else noticed the **occasional** LARGE ads at the top of the right hand column on the /. homepage?
I think you meant Amdahl's Law.. the improvement to the user is only as noticeable as the original experience was poor.
The faster the original redraw, the less of an effect the speedier redraws have on the user's interaction experience.
Surely you mean artical
Transmeta a Go-Go followed by his encounter with Riker and Geordie... here. :-)
Heh.
Usually I'm in favor of modding article re-posts as redundant. But in this case, the article really was slashdotted, so I am glad that SunSaw posted it.
Maybe someone can mod the parent back up a bit so people who don't browse at -1 can read it, too?
MM
--
By including this sig, the copyright holders of this work or collection unreservedly place it in the public domain.
I've been looking for a 100% solid-state DVR.
Why? On-board camera for my race car.
If I can get it to turn on recording at the same time as I push the DATA RECORD switch on the datalogger, then I get video and sound synched to the data log - and that would be a HUGE advantage.
Why solid-state? Because race cars take a lot of abuse. 1.6G to -1.6G in the space of half a second or so.
I figure an MPEG2 capture card, an audio capture card, the OS on EPROM and Compact Flash as the filesystem. Video IN and stereo audio IN. Record at full-speed every time the RECORD pin goes to ground. Operate at 10V-16V.
I've found a number of VERY similar devices (for security cameras), but nothing yet that does full speed video and sound. Build one, price it cheap, and I'll buy it.
DG
Want to learn about race cars? Read my Book
Hmm.. I'm probably wrong over here, but I thought if you combine N>1 clusters you get 1 (bigger) cluster.
No idea how its computational would scale, but surely not exponentially?
No, don't ask someone that has a fab, because their answers will be strongly colored by whatever technology their fab is using.
Semiconductor fabs are so extraordinarily expensive that their rate of change is massively limited by the long time it takes to recoup investment. Unless you want a major loss on your hands, you have to churn out chips on each fab line for as long as possible without change, so you certainly would not advocate publicly any change in technology that would limit the lifespan of a current fab line.
I believe that the Opteron and Athlon 64 are both SOI designs (and Opteron has been in production for 6+ months).
Isn't the G5 also SOI? Isn't that a specialty of IBM Microelectronics?
Why would they imply that this (obviously) mature technology isn't?
And I was just listening to the Infectious Grooves today! :-)
Moore's law applies directly to the number of transistors on a chip, but since we are all using Maas Biochips these days, none of that applies anymore. Unless you own one of those old Ono-Sendai peices of crap...
TallGreen CMS hosting
But programmers don't use them.
With my command of assembly language, there probably aren't many coders out there that could write faster code than I. I'm not bragging; it's a simple fact that if you can fit the entire executable into the processor's cache, all of the optimizing compilers in the world don't matter. Instructions executed out of cache are completed around 7 to 10 times faster than those fetched from memory.
But nobody cares. Programmers have become so used to the increase in processing power that they are willing to write ever more bloated code, knowing that somewhere, somehow, there's an EE major who will invent a fab process that will make up for the shortcomings of programmers.
For every doubling of clock speed or halving of power consumption, there's some intelligent idiot (tm) designing a better, slower Java. It doesn't matter how fast the processor clock is if you're programmers are ever willing to invent less-efficient languages.
Instead, if you taught programmers to write efficient code, the speed of the processor would be a moot point. Today's processors are overkill for the average consumer - unless, of course, said consumer writes an interpreted language in Java and runs the interpreter in a JVM... Yeah, you laugh, but trust me, someone is already doing it....
The society for a thought-free internet welcomes you.
The original SOI was silicon on sapphire and was developed in the 60s for rad-hardened military chips and used by HP for workstation processors in the 70s and 80s. And yes, those AMD and IBM processors use SOI.
Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do.
Somebody mod parent as off-topic. This has nothing to do with Transmeta or Linus Stallman whatsoever.
And while you're at it mod me as troll, you teabagging cock-smokers.
No mention at all of the early developments done by Acorn (Sophie Wilson and others) and after that by ARM Ltd on the first ARM design followed by succesive new generations of ARMs. Something that is still going on. The Digital and Intel developers could build on the already available power/mips performance of the ARM architecture.
So far that ratio has been better in true ARM designs than in the American offspring.