Best Buy Uses DMCA To Quash Black Friday Prices

Sethb writes "It looks like Best Buy didn't learn from Wal-Mart last year, and has now invoked the DMCA in order to prevent FatWallet from posting information about what items they will have on sale the day after Thanksgiving. Hopefully FatWallet will stand up for themselves again, and Best Buy will be laughed out of court."

Comments

national buy nothing day

[Anonymous Coward]

ill be saving lots of money by sticking with ad-busters "National Buy Nothing Day" on "black friday" and sticking up for our culture.

or whats left of it.

have fun at wal-mart suckers

Re:national buy nothing day

[penguinboy]

Are you charging it to a credit card that you've never had a zero balance on?

Why would you bother keeping a credit card with a zero balance on it? If you can afford to buy stuff without credit, you don't need one.

Why use a credit card, even if you don't need one?

1. Easier than carrying around a stack of cash, or checks

2. Accepted more than checks

3. Buying online or by phone. Sure. a *few* vendors might let you mail cash, checks, or money orders, but mailing takes several days and CCs are instant.

4. Protection. Can't charge-back with cash

5. Records. You get a monthly itemized list of all transactions. With cash you have to keep track by hand

6. Float. You don't have to pay until the end of your billing cycle.

7. Building credit. You can use a credit card (without carrying a balance) to establish a good credit history for when you want larger loans (car, house) later.

Plenty of benefits, and what would you use instead?

Re:national buy nothing day

[willfe]

Debit cards can be exceedingly dangerous, namely in that you are not offered the same protections against fraud that you are automatically provided by a credit card.

Suppose your card is stolen and someone makes dozens of little purchases so as not to raise suspicion, or gets a fake I.D. with your name on it so he can charge up a storm. If it's a credit card, once you report it stolen, you're not liable for any of the charges made on it. If it's a debit card, real, actual money has been sucked out of your bank account, never to be seen again. Good luck getting that back. I'm not saying it's impossible, but I'm suggesting it's far more difficult.

Saying "chargeback is handled by the shop if you have the receipt" isn't the issue; suppose the shop rips you off. Suppose you pay in advance for something with a debit card but never receive the product? What does your bank do then?

Regarding point 7 -- credit lending is a fickle mistress, but does adhere to at least some principles:

• When you have no credit history whatsoever, you normally cannot obtain a substantial amount of credit. A car loan (even on a new car) is about the best you can get (because it's a secured loan -- they can take real property if you default). A mortgage is usually impossible to obtain without previous credit unless you have a significant (30% or more) down payment ready to go. Generally credit is established by obtaining a fairly high-interest rate credit card with a low credit limit (say about $2,500 if you have good, verifiable income, lower if you your wages are single-digit figures per hour).
• Your credit history is established as you charge to it and make payments every month. A common misconception is that paying off your credit card in full is noted on your credit report somehow and automatically/instantly improves your credit. This isn't quite correct, but the real effect this has is similar. See below.
• Any decision to lend you money is taken based on your previously-established payment habits. Length of credit history is actually more important than your payment history -- your "score" goes up the longer you've had credit established. All sorts of events and ideas change your credit score:
  • A short credit history, of less than five, even ten years, lowers your score.
  • A missed payment (reported on your credit history; note most lenders are willing to forgive one missed payment, in the sense that if you pay it back and pay their fees, they won't report it) lowers your score.
  • Accounts in collection, valid or not, lower your score.
  • "Maxed out" revolving credit lines (carrying a $4,900 average balance on a $5,000 credit card line) hurts your score significantly (it is viewed as very poor money management skills since you keep the card charged up and pay only (or close to) its minimums every month).
  • Always-zero balances lower your score slightly. Here's where normal common sense goes out the window; it's generally a "good" thing to have credit available that hasn't been used, but lenders view it as potential debt you can run up after they've lent you money. It's a risk to lend you money and require a certain payment, knowing that later you could run up another debt with an already-established credit line that could make you unable to pay for this line of credit. This is reflected as a decrease of your score.
  • Having a long credit history but no "old" accounts (as in "card hopping" -- you get a new card every year at a lower interest rate or to take advantage of zero-fee/zero-interest transfers, and close your old cards) lowers your score. Personally I think they do this because it pisses 'em off that you're screwing them out of interest, but the official reason claimed is that you haven't established a long term reliable history with a single lender when you do this.
  • Unsecured cash loans reduce your score. You had to borrow money, one time, from somebody, and you owe it back. The payments rarely c

Re:national buy nothing day

[LostCluster]

Yes. Using a credit card account and not having any late payments associated with it establish a track record of being able to send ontime payments, and also the ability to know one's own limits and not make purchases that they can't afford to pay back.

Lenders are now relying on a score called FICO from the Fair Issac corperation as the benchmark of a consumer's credit quality. The exact formula is kept secret, but it is known that indicators of past payment history contribute 30% of the overall score. If a consumer doesn't have any account that is reporting on-time payments to the credit reporting services, then they will score poorly in that section. Not as poorly as somebody who has a history of skipping payments, but still not as good as somebody who has held on to the same credit card for several years with no missed payments.

Using a debit card in place of a credit card doesn't create a credit history. The decuction from your account happens instantly, and is rejected if the account can't support the decution... there's no loan involved, so no chance for you to screw up on paying back the loan. Basically, their trust in a new consumer is built up by giving them the chance to screw up, and then giving them more trust for having not screwed up.

Income and current debt load are also components in the formula, but to get a near-perfect score and therefore the best rates you score well in all of the sections.

Re:national buy nothing day

[Lumpy]

A mortgage is usually impossible to obtain without previous credit unless you have a significant (30% or more) down payment ready to go.

Bullshit. I am sick of people spreading this lie.

Credit companies and banks love to spread this lie and is it 100% untrue.

if you get a FHA loan, and if you live in the United states and never bought a home before you qualify, you can get one without any credit at all and only 2% down.

in fact you can get one with a NEGATIVE credit rating and less than 10% down.

and YES kiddies that is at the low interest rates.

the only thing that will kick your arse is outstanding debts. pay them off (and the write off's, plus be sure that you paid any judgements against you) and you can get your FHA loan right away.. My credit was royally Fubard by a second divorce and a vindictive bitch. I got a loan 2 years ago at the low 7% rate (at that time that was the low rate) and I had a NEGATIVE credit rating. My stepson (who hates his mother BTW) has NO credit and qualified for the same kind of loan with ZERO DOWN at 6.25% more recently.

anyone that tells you that a mortgage is hard to get without good credit is a bold faced liar.

Pretty braindead

[mousse-man]

Using the DMCA to block competitors off selling products you're not even the sole distributor seems be a braindead concept. But then, there are lawyers as well....wasn't there an important sentence in King Lear about that profession?

At least the Germans have some laws governing sales, so they have some logic in there.

Tough for Best Buy.

[Maul]

Seriously. I don't see how their "secrets" of what items are going to be on sale at what time should be priveledged information. They should do a better job of keeping their secrets if they don't like it.

On the other hand, maybe if I find out (hypothetically) that the printer I was going to buy tomorrow at Fry's will be 20% less at Best Buy, I'll wait to shop at a Best Buy.

Somebody had better sue back this time

[Quila]

Sec. 512 F of the DMCA:

`(f) MISREPRESENTATIONS- Any person who knowingly materially misrepresents under this section--

`(1) that material or activity is infringing, or

`(2) that material or activity was removed or disabled by mistake or misidentification,

shall be liable for any damages, including costs and attorneys' fees, incurred by the alleged infringer, by any copyright owner or copyright owner's authorized licensee, or by a service provider, who is injured by such misrepresentation, as the result of the service provider relying upon such misrepresentation in removing or disabling access to the material or activity claimed to be infringing, or in replacing the removed material or ceasing to disable access to it.

best buy black friday items

[Anonymous Coward]

Maxtor 120GB 7200RPM Internal HD w/8MB Buffer - $50 A/R
SanDisk 256MB CF Card - $40 A/R
SanDisk 256MB SD Card - $50 A/R
DVD XCopy: Gold - $20 A/R
Norton SystemWorks/AntiSpam/Firewall 3-in-1 package - $0 A/R
Lite-On 4x Multi-Format DVD Burner - $80 A/R
Samsung 17" LCD Monitor - $280 A/R
ATI Radeon 9600 128MB - $70 A/R
Sony P-10 5MP Digital Camera w/free 64MB MS - $400 A/R
Canon Powershot A70 3.2MP w/free 64MB CF - $300 A/R

Your grades are already safe

[David Eppstein]

At the Univ. of California, at least, we are not allowed to release student information such as grades to anyone, including parents, without the student's permission. See e.g. Section IV(B) of http://www.ucop.edu/ucophome/policies/bfb/rmp11.ht ml.

Re:Next Headline:

[rnbc]

I don't know about the USA, but here in Portugal student's grades are public domain, by law.

As soon as they are official they are available to anyone who cares to request them.

Direct Snail-Mail to...

[acousticiris]

General/Corporate Inquiries
For general comments and questions about Best Buy Co., Inc., contact:

Best Buy Co., Inc.
Corporate Headquarters
P.O. Box 9312
Minneapolis, MN 55440-9312

This story hasn't gotten a lot of attention outside of FatWallet's forums and Slashdot. If this activity bothers you, take a few minutes, write a letter, lick a stamp, and let them know you're paying attention. They are very unlikely to win if this goes to court, so they don't need a whole lot of motivation to stop the idiotic activity. I, for one, won't be patronizing their store again. I mean really, if you need your "retail" electronics fix, they have plenty of competitors who offer the same junk at the same high prices.
Kick them a letter and thank them for making the choice of where to shop a little easier.

FULL Black Friday List

[Anonymous Coward]

The Simpsons Season 1, The Italian Job, Anger Mangement, Chicago, 28 Days Later, Charlie's Angels 2, The Lion King SE: $11.99 each (DVD)
Madden 2004 (PC) - $14.99
RCA 52" Rear Projection HDTV - $1000
Daewoo 42" Plasma TV - $2300 A/R
Panasonic 5.1 700-Watt Home Theatre w/progressive scan DVD player (speakers are built into stands) - $500 w/$50 free gift card
600-Watt version of above w/o speaker stands - $350 w/free $50 gift card
Bose 3-2-1 Home Theatre System - $900
Pinnacle Studio 8 - $0 A/R
MS Digital Image Suite 9.0 - $20 A/R
Canon ZR60 MiniDV Camcorder - $300 A/R
MAG 19" LCD Monitor - $430 A/R
SanDisk 256MB USB Memory Key - $40 A/R
Sony Clie SJ-22 - $100 A/R
Casio 2.3" Handheld TV - $40 A/R
APC 350VA UPS - $5 A/R
FujiFilm FinePix A303 3.2MP - $150
Maxtor 120GB 7200RPM Internal HD w/8MB Buffer - $50 A/R
SanDisk 256MB CF Card - $40 A/R
SanDisk 256MB SD Card - $50 A/R
DVD XCopy: Gold - $20 A/R
Norton SystemWorks/AntiSpam/Firewall 3-in-1 package - $0 A/R
Lite-On 4x Multi-Format DVD Burner - $80 A/R
Samsung 17" LCD Monitor - $280 A/R
ATI Radeon 9600 128MB - $70 A/R
Sony P-10 5MP Digital Camera w/free 64MB MS - $400 A/R
Canon Powershot A70 3.2MP w/free 64MB CF - $300 A/R

Re:FULL Black Friday List

[Buran]

This is all "after rebate", almost (and the items that aren't are too expensive for me right now, so I'll pass.)

Rebates are a sham. I never factor in post-rebate prices -- I once got a check back from a rebate and my bank refused it, claiming it wasn't a real check. What a joke.

This isn't anything to write home about.

Re:Not really fair to disclose this information.

[valdis]

(IANAL, and I don't play one on TV)

Actually, the OP is correct - facts are not copyrightable. Copyright is however held on the *compilation* and upon the *embodiment* thereof.

17 USC 102 (b) says:
In no case does copyright protection for an original work of authorship extend to any idea, procedure, process, system, method of operation, concept, principle, or discovery, regardless of the form in which it is described, explained, illustrated, or embodied in such work

So finding out Mario cart 64 will be on sale and then publicizing it isn't a violation of copyright as long as they don't infringe the artwork/etc of the original. This dog won't hunt.

Best Buy would be *much* better served by wandering over to 18 USC 1832 and arguing it's a trade secret:

http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/1832.html

18 USC 1832 (a)(2) seems a slam dunk:

without authorization copies, duplicates, sketches, draws, photographs, downloads, uploads, alters, destroys, photocopies, replicates, transmits, delivers, sends, mails, communicates, or conveys such information;

This dog probably *can* hunt, and I admit no clue why Best Buy didn't pursue this unless they know of some reason why it would fall through in court. Best guess I can make is that there's some reason they can't make 1832(a) stick:

Whoever, with intent to convert a trade secret, that is related to or included in a product that is produced for or placed in interstate or foreign commerce, to the economic benefit of anyone other than the owner thereof, and intending or knowing that the offense will, injure any owner of that trade secret, knowingly -

FatWallet could probably make the case that since Best Buy is willing to sell the gear on sale, that no injury is incurred because people wait till the sale starts to buy it. If Best Buy is injured because people buy the box at $149, they shouldn't be lowering the price from $179.

Time for mirrors

[DiveX]

I've already mirrored the information on my meager ISP webspace: http://web.tampabay.rr.com/mblitch/bf2003/

Other mirrors are up. Use the example of bittorrent and help spread the load and information. I have not seen nor read any complaints from Best Buy, so I do not know what their issue may be.

http://www.andy-akb.com/bf/

http://www.uswebstreet.com/~cmptrdude1/default.a sp ?id=home

http://cpanel19.gzo.com/~every/blackfriday/

http://www.quepons.com/blackfriday.html

If you see a Best Buy sale coming, you get a bonus

[LostCluster]

One thing to know...

If you have advanced knowledge of what Best Buy will put on sale 2 weeks from now, you can buy that item today from them at the higher price, and then claim the 110% price protection offer they make to get an additional 10% of the discount. In fact, you can do the same to Circuit City using Best Buy's sale, or vice-versa because Circuit City has the same "price protection" policy.

Therefore, they don't want you to be able to see their price drops coming... and that's why sale info is top secret until the day the sale goes into effect, at which point it's public info.

Re:If you see a Best Buy sale coming, you get a bo

[Anonymous Coward]

This is actually a pretty nasty way of using an anti-competetive tactic against them. If you study game theory, you can see that the 110% protection they offer really only allows both stores to sell the product for more, and is thus anti-competetive (e.g. the Nash equillibria rises when they use this trick).

We do not plan on releasing information

[Chief Mucky Muck]

Wanted to make a couple points perfectly clear. When we rec'd the dmca notification and electronic delivery of a copy of a subpoena, it was late on Friday night. To be on the safe side, we acted to remove the specified information to remove any potential liability. (as legal counsel was not immediately available for guidance) Saturday was spent putting together the legal team, the real work starts tonight and tomorrow. Last year, Wal-Mart backed down before we filed our Motion to Quash - it remains to be seen what Best Buy's attitude will be in the battle of intellectual property counsel. We certainly do not believe that there is a legitimate copyright issue at hand, but as I had stated to Best Buy before information was even posted on our site, the potential for "trade secret" does exist here, but it is their responsibility to protect their intellectual property. Once a trade secret is made public, trade secret protection is no longer available. I am not a lawyer, and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night - But this is where the current thought pattern is - stay tuned for more details early this week. Tim Storm President FatWallet, inc.

Debit card protections

[way2trivial]

Visa mandates banks offer the same protection with visa debit cards as credit

Mastercard explicitly denies the same, but mentions on their website many banks choose to do so voluntarily.

Re:If you see a Best Buy sale coming, you get a bo

[Anonymous Coward]

Therefore, they don't want you to be able to see their price drops coming... and that's why sale info is top secret until the day the sale goes into effect, at which point it's public info.

WTF? If it is so "top secret", why is it customary for Sunday newspaper inserts to be sent to the delivery folks on Wednesday or Thursday before the date?

And best buy's 'price protection' would only match the price up to 30 days after the sale, it doesn't give you 110%.

Get a clue...

Re:Suing you for sources!

[Chief Mucky Muck]

Thanks for your comments, however off base they may be.

The issue at hand is that Best Buy filed a DMCA notice - not a c&d. This means that they are claiming copyrihght on the information.

A DMCA notification allows the notifier to subpoena the information regardless of the merit of the copyright claim, that is the issue we are dealing with here.

If this were another type of Intellectual property issue, such as trade secret, Best Buy would have to file a lawsuit against the John Doe, and then subpoena the information based upon the lawsuit.

However, in this case, it appears as though the information was available elsewhere before it was posted on FatWallet, which it could be argued that the information was already "in the public", so the trade secret claims would be tough to prove.

Any intellectual property claim would be against the person making the post on our site, as we would have immunity thanks to the commudications decency act.

Thanks again for your comments

Tim Storm FatWallet, inc.

Nope-OP was correct

[TuballoyThunder]

The original poster was correct, assuming that you are not carrying a balance. Most credit card providers will not charge you any interest on purchases if you pay 100% of your balance when it is due. Thus, your money remains in your checking account until you pay the credit card bill earning a whopping 1.5% - 2.2% APY interest on a money market account or 0.5% - 1.5% APY interest on a interest-bearing checking account.

Re:If you see a Best Buy sale coming, you get a bo

[Anonymous Coward]

Nope, sorry. The price protection does not apply to the black friday sale, and the ads that go out will say so.

Re:Next Headline:

[The_K4]

Easy, after your parents get the grades (assuming that you didn't expressly authorize it) get a lawyer....the school has just broken FEDERAL law. The same law that's currently being used by school to try and prevent the RIAA from getting student's names. I can not for the life of me remember the name of the law, but it give student's a great deal of control over the informationt he school has about them, including grades.