Best Buy Uses DMCA To Quash Black Friday Prices

Sethb writes "It looks like Best Buy didn't learn from Wal-Mart last year, and has now invoked the DMCA in order to prevent FatWallet from posting information about what items they will have on sale the day after Thanksgiving. Hopefully FatWallet will stand up for themselves again, and Best Buy will be laughed out of court."

Comments

Next Headline:

[j0keralpha]

Major Book Publishers use DMCA to quash blurbs and book reviews!

This law is getting just a shade ridiculous.

Re:Next Headline:

[TedCheshireAcad]

I wonder if it can be used to keep my grades from being released to my parents, I mean yes; they pay the tuition, but isnt the semi-unique sequence of D's and F's my copyright?

...Can I sue my university for even printing them? ;)

Re:Next Headline:

[quonsar]

Right, and what how fast Mom and Dad stop paying for your school.

they may as well cut their losses as stand around and what it being wasted on you.

national buy nothing day

[Anonymous Coward]

ill be saving lots of money by sticking with ad-busters "National Buy Nothing Day" on "black friday" and sticking up for our culture.

or whats left of it.

have fun at wal-mart suckers

Re:national buy nothing day

[penguinboy]

Are you charging it to a credit card that you've never had a zero balance on?

Why would you bother keeping a credit card with a zero balance on it? If you can afford to buy stuff without credit, you don't need one.

Why use a credit card, even if you don't need one?

1. Easier than carrying around a stack of cash, or checks

2. Accepted more than checks

3. Buying online or by phone. Sure. a *few* vendors might let you mail cash, checks, or money orders, but mailing takes several days and CCs are instant.

4. Protection. Can't charge-back with cash

5. Records. You get a monthly itemized list of all transactions. With cash you have to keep track by hand

6. Float. You don't have to pay until the end of your billing cycle.

7. Building credit. You can use a credit card (without carrying a balance) to establish a good credit history for when you want larger loans (car, house) later.

Plenty of benefits, and what would you use instead?

Re:national buy nothing day

[willfe]

Debit cards can be exceedingly dangerous, namely in that you are not offered the same protections against fraud that you are automatically provided by a credit card.

Suppose your card is stolen and someone makes dozens of little purchases so as not to raise suspicion, or gets a fake I.D. with your name on it so he can charge up a storm. If it's a credit card, once you report it stolen, you're not liable for any of the charges made on it. If it's a debit card, real, actual money has been sucked out of your bank account, never to be seen again. Good luck getting that back. I'm not saying it's impossible, but I'm suggesting it's far more difficult.

Saying "chargeback is handled by the shop if you have the receipt" isn't the issue; suppose the shop rips you off. Suppose you pay in advance for something with a debit card but never receive the product? What does your bank do then?

Regarding point 7 -- credit lending is a fickle mistress, but does adhere to at least some principles:

• When you have no credit history whatsoever, you normally cannot obtain a substantial amount of credit. A car loan (even on a new car) is about the best you can get (because it's a secured loan -- they can take real property if you default). A mortgage is usually impossible to obtain without previous credit unless you have a significant (30% or more) down payment ready to go. Generally credit is established by obtaining a fairly high-interest rate credit card with a low credit limit (say about $2,500 if you have good, verifiable income, lower if you your wages are single-digit figures per hour).
• Your credit history is established as you charge to it and make payments every month. A common misconception is that paying off your credit card in full is noted on your credit report somehow and automatically/instantly improves your credit. This isn't quite correct, but the real effect this has is similar. See below.
• Any decision to lend you money is taken based on your previously-established payment habits. Length of credit history is actually more important than your payment history -- your "score" goes up the longer you've had credit established. All sorts of events and ideas change your credit score:
  • A short credit history, of less than five, even ten years, lowers your score.
  • A missed payment (reported on your credit history; note most lenders are willing to forgive one missed payment, in the sense that if you pay it back and pay their fees, they won't report it) lowers your score.
  • Accounts in collection, valid or not, lower your score.
  • "Maxed out" revolving credit lines (carrying a $4,900 average balance on a $5,000 credit card line) hurts your score significantly (it is viewed as very poor money management skills since you keep the card charged up and pay only (or close to) its minimums every month).
  • Always-zero balances lower your score slightly. Here's where normal common sense goes out the window; it's generally a "good" thing to have credit available that hasn't been used, but lenders view it as potential debt you can run up after they've lent you money. It's a risk to lend you money and require a certain payment, knowing that later you could run up another debt with an already-established credit line that could make you unable to pay for this line of credit. This is reflected as a decrease of your score.
  • Having a long credit history but no "old" accounts (as in "card hopping" -- you get a new card every year at a lower interest rate or to take advantage of zero-fee/zero-interest transfers, and close your old cards) lowers your score. Personally I think they do this because it pisses 'em off that you're screwing them out of interest, but the official reason claimed is that you haven't established a long term reliable history with a single lender when you do this.
  • Unsecured cash loans reduce your score. You had to borrow money, one time, from somebody, and you owe it back. The payments rarely c

Re:Not really fair to disclose this information.

[Anonymous Coward]

Is it also unfair to get several quotes, or search pricewatch to compare prices ?

Or to wait til you can get a good deal on a used one on ebay ?

How about having an above average IQ ? That cuts into your usefulness as a consumer also.

Just because a business thought of a way to make money, doesn't mean actions that make that way look stupid are somehow "unfair". It's just as "unfair" to not let me read all the ads before I go shopping.

Re:Not really fair to disclose this information.

[JayBlalock]

The entire basis of a (more or less) free market economy and its success is the ability of consumers to make learned, rational market decisions which are in their own interest. Advertising today, however, relies far more on trickery, psychological games, and "invisible" price hikes and drops than actually producing a quality product at a competitive price. If it is harmful to Best Buy for just their *prices* to be made public, then it means Best Buy is doing business in such a way that basically undermines the functioning of our economy.

Much of the reason the system seems so out of wack right now is that it's the company who has the most clever advertising that wins, NOT the one actually producing the best product. And that's very destructive in the long run.

Re:Not really fair to disclose this information.

[k12linux]

Much of a store's profits are made on strategy. When this kind of data is released, it cuts into the ability of a business to price things appropriately to the demand.

Actually it would cause a business to more accurately price things appropriately to demand. But that's not what they want is it? They want to be able to price things above what demand would dictate so they can have higher profits. In this case they don't even want to do that.. they want to force people into the stores to find loss-leader items so they can sell them the high-profit items along with or instead of the low priced items.

From what I remember in civics (history/government) class long ago there were no items in the Constitution or Bill of Rights which guarantee businesses high margins at the expense of other citizens. Funny how things which hurt margins (not destroy sales.. but hurt margins) in favor of the rest of society are suddenly becomming illegal in the U.S.

I own a small business. Current US policies (even legitimate use of DMCA) don't appear to do one bit of good for small business. They only seem to help big business... which already has tons of tax breaks and other benefits none of the rest of us get.

You mean fighting our culture, right?

[fredmosby]

America has been based on consumerism for the last 50 years. Doesn't that make it part of American culture?

best buy black friday items

[Anonymous Coward]

Maxtor 120GB 7200RPM Internal HD w/8MB Buffer - $50 A/R
SanDisk 256MB CF Card - $40 A/R
SanDisk 256MB SD Card - $50 A/R
DVD XCopy: Gold - $20 A/R
Norton SystemWorks/AntiSpam/Firewall 3-in-1 package - $0 A/R
Lite-On 4x Multi-Format DVD Burner - $80 A/R
Samsung 17" LCD Monitor - $280 A/R
ATI Radeon 9600 128MB - $70 A/R
Sony P-10 5MP Digital Camera w/free 64MB MS - $400 A/R
Canon Powershot A70 3.2MP w/free 64MB CF - $300 A/R

MAYBE this DMCA thing was a bad idea...

[erroneus]

Okay let's assume for a moment that these (let's call them) "lawyers" are professionals of the legal profession. This assumption would lead one to understand that these "lawyers" are reasonably intelligent, educated and keep current with the practice and application of law.

Given that there has been prior failure of the exact same application of the law we fondly refer to as the "DMCA" and assuming they are aware of this, then it is clear that these "lawyers" are not interested in using the "DMCA" as it was intended and are instead using it as a refridgerator. (As a means to apply a "chilling effect" to anything that might seem like competition or might otherwise endanger their profitability.)

I know I am really out on a limb here suggesting that these "lawyers" would even dream of using law for purposes it was never intended. But I'm just presenting a possible explanation for their behavior without suggesting they are morons.

Not Good Enough

[CarlDenny]

Hopefully FatWallet will stand up for themselves again, and Best Buy will be laughed out of court.

No, no, NO.

If Best Buy gets laughed out of court in the middle of December, they've already won. Fat Wallet took down their ads, had to hire a lawyer, free speech was stifled.

I am sad to see that FatWallet blinked this time, after staring down Walmart and getting them to back down. The argument that facts cannot be copyrighted seems solid, and the DMCA shouldn't change that (except for removign due proes, of course.) We need this case to go to court, and the countersuit to be pursued even after Best Buy drops it two weks after the fact.

Fuckers.

The only possible good outcome here is if Fat Wallet stood up, kept up the ads, and countersued.

The DMCA doesn't change whether something is copyrightable, and facts

Best Buy got sued for something similar

[rabbit994]

Best Buy got sued a while back because a guy in the Washington D.C. Metro Area was shopping for a new laptop and went store to store with his old laptop writing down prices and features because he wanted the best value. Best Buy didn't allow this and even when so far as ripping off price tags. This guy took them to court for false advertising saying their attitude didn't reflect their name "Best Buy". Judge ruled in favor and said if Best Buy wanted to practice that type of behavior, they would have to post a sign in the front that said "We do not allow competive shopping". Needless to say, Best Buy changed a few things and I think the guy got a free laptop out of them to boot.

Direct Snail-Mail to...

[acousticiris]

General/Corporate Inquiries
For general comments and questions about Best Buy Co., Inc., contact:

Best Buy Co., Inc.
Corporate Headquarters
P.O. Box 9312
Minneapolis, MN 55440-9312

This story hasn't gotten a lot of attention outside of FatWallet's forums and Slashdot. If this activity bothers you, take a few minutes, write a letter, lick a stamp, and let them know you're paying attention. They are very unlikely to win if this goes to court, so they don't need a whole lot of motivation to stop the idiotic activity. I, for one, won't be patronizing their store again. I mean really, if you need your "retail" electronics fix, they have plenty of competitors who offer the same junk at the same high prices.
Kick them a letter and thank them for making the choice of where to shop a little easier.

Squelch is on high

[djupedal]

'they' don't want:

• Movie premier instant reviews
• Book reviews/blurbs/comments
• Black Friday pre-sale prices devulged
• Speed trap location tip-offs
• Arrest warrant sweeps announced
• Car computers modified to prohibit insurance snooping
• Stop-light camera locations mapped

We don't want....them. Us vs. them. If 'they' trusted 'us', we might trust them. In the mean time...give 'em hell.

FULL Black Friday List

[Anonymous Coward]

The Simpsons Season 1, The Italian Job, Anger Mangement, Chicago, 28 Days Later, Charlie's Angels 2, The Lion King SE: $11.99 each (DVD)
Madden 2004 (PC) - $14.99
RCA 52" Rear Projection HDTV - $1000
Daewoo 42" Plasma TV - $2300 A/R
Panasonic 5.1 700-Watt Home Theatre w/progressive scan DVD player (speakers are built into stands) - $500 w/$50 free gift card
600-Watt version of above w/o speaker stands - $350 w/free $50 gift card
Bose 3-2-1 Home Theatre System - $900
Pinnacle Studio 8 - $0 A/R
MS Digital Image Suite 9.0 - $20 A/R
Canon ZR60 MiniDV Camcorder - $300 A/R
MAG 19" LCD Monitor - $430 A/R
SanDisk 256MB USB Memory Key - $40 A/R
Sony Clie SJ-22 - $100 A/R
Casio 2.3" Handheld TV - $40 A/R
APC 350VA UPS - $5 A/R
FujiFilm FinePix A303 3.2MP - $150
Maxtor 120GB 7200RPM Internal HD w/8MB Buffer - $50 A/R
SanDisk 256MB CF Card - $40 A/R
SanDisk 256MB SD Card - $50 A/R
DVD XCopy: Gold - $20 A/R
Norton SystemWorks/AntiSpam/Firewall 3-in-1 package - $0 A/R
Lite-On 4x Multi-Format DVD Burner - $80 A/R
Samsung 17" LCD Monitor - $280 A/R
ATI Radeon 9600 128MB - $70 A/R
Sony P-10 5MP Digital Camera w/free 64MB MS - $400 A/R
Canon Powershot A70 3.2MP w/free 64MB CF - $300 A/R

If you see a Best Buy sale coming, you get a bonus

[LostCluster]

One thing to know...

If you have advanced knowledge of what Best Buy will put on sale 2 weeks from now, you can buy that item today from them at the higher price, and then claim the 110% price protection offer they make to get an additional 10% of the discount. In fact, you can do the same to Circuit City using Best Buy's sale, or vice-versa because Circuit City has the same "price protection" policy.

Therefore, they don't want you to be able to see their price drops coming... and that's why sale info is top secret until the day the sale goes into effect, at which point it's public info.

We do not plan on releasing information

[Chief Mucky Muck]

Wanted to make a couple points perfectly clear. When we rec'd the dmca notification and electronic delivery of a copy of a subpoena, it was late on Friday night. To be on the safe side, we acted to remove the specified information to remove any potential liability. (as legal counsel was not immediately available for guidance) Saturday was spent putting together the legal team, the real work starts tonight and tomorrow. Last year, Wal-Mart backed down before we filed our Motion to Quash - it remains to be seen what Best Buy's attitude will be in the battle of intellectual property counsel. We certainly do not believe that there is a legitimate copyright issue at hand, but as I had stated to Best Buy before information was even posted on our site, the potential for "trade secret" does exist here, but it is their responsibility to protect their intellectual property. Once a trade secret is made public, trade secret protection is no longer available. I am not a lawyer, and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night - But this is where the current thought pattern is - stay tuned for more details early this week. Tim Storm President FatWallet, inc.

Re:Suing you for sources!

[Chief Mucky Muck]

Thanks for your comments, however off base they may be.

The issue at hand is that Best Buy filed a DMCA notice - not a c&d. This means that they are claiming copyrihght on the information.

A DMCA notification allows the notifier to subpoena the information regardless of the merit of the copyright claim, that is the issue we are dealing with here.

If this were another type of Intellectual property issue, such as trade secret, Best Buy would have to file a lawsuit against the John Doe, and then subpoena the information based upon the lawsuit.

However, in this case, it appears as though the information was available elsewhere before it was posted on FatWallet, which it could be argued that the information was already "in the public", so the trade secret claims would be tough to prove.

Any intellectual property claim would be against the person making the post on our site, as we would have immunity thanks to the commudications decency act.

Thanks again for your comments

Tim Storm FatWallet, inc.

consumerism means bankrupt values

[JimmytheGeek]

the endless pursuit of stuff is killing us and what's worse, it's making us shallower.

I'm afraid that Coke is a pretty good shorthand reference for American culture. American cities are hidious, with maybe two exceptions (San Fran, New Orleans). The sole urban design goal seems to be the breakdown of community and conversion of citizens to consumers. We've lost a tremendous amount of personal time to work. Is that a good trade-off? What about pro-family values? Can you raise your kids from work? Once they are fed, housed, and clothed, is the delta income worth the -delta face time? Did you get a choice re: -delta face time?

GDP is not a sound measure of societal health. I don't think it's even a good measure of economic health. Where externalities aren't monetized (you aren't charged for pollution), but cancer treatments are, you have a skewed measurement and eventually warped values. /end rant gotta get some sleep