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Universities Dispute with Red Hat over 'Fedora'

Posted by michael on from the red-hat-hoist-by-own-fedora dept.

Carl Lagoze points out that a pre-existing software project is already using the Fedora name, dating back to 1998. They're unhappy with Red Hat's claim to the name, and have objected.

30 of 500 comments (clear)

  1. Pot, meet kettle. by fo0bar · · Score: 4, Interesting
    Perhaps Warren Togami should take exeption to Virginia/Cornell using the Fedora name 5 months after the (now Red Hat) Fedora project was started.

    Founded December 2002 by University of Hawaii Computer Science student Warren Togami, the previous Fedora Linux Project is an international team of volunteer software developers united for the development of high quality 3rd party RPM packages for the Red Hat Linux platform.

    1. Re:Pot, meet kettle. by ahillen · · Score: 3, Informative

      From reading the university Fedora website, it appears that while work on the project itself was around since 1998, it wasn't actually released to the public under the Fedora name until May 2003.

      Hmm, I think they are only saying that they released version 1.0 to the public in May 2003. To quote their website:

      " There is substantial evidence for prior use of the name Fedora? by the Cornell and Virginia teams starting in 1998. This includes published papers, web sites, software releases, and public presentations."

      That sounds to me that even before May 2003 they had software releases, a web site etc. using this name (just no 1.0 release).

    2. Re:Pot, meet kettle. by Best+ID+Ever! · · Score: 5, Insightful

      They're all computer software, right?

      The problem isn't necessarily that Redhat is using Fedora -- it's that they're attempting to trademark it, and restrict others from using it.

  2. Heavens to murgatroid!!! by eyegor · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Did Darl McBride take over Red Hat when we weren't looking?
    "Fedora is now a trademark of Red Hat, Inc. Red Hat will defend this trademark in order to protect the integrity of The Fedora Project"
    Looks like Red Hat needs to find another name.

    --

    Don't anthropomorphize computers, they don't like it.
    1. Re:Heavens to murgatroid!!! by Fulcrum+of+Evil · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Or maybe they need to realize that it's okay to have a Fedora Linux project and a Fedora (something else) project. Trademarks are only valid for a limited set of things - you can't TM a word and claim domain over all uses of it.

      --
      "We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
    2. Re:Heavens to murgatroid!!! by Theatetus · · Score: 5, Informative
      you can't TM a word and claim domain over all uses of it.

      Actually you can, if it's a made-up word. Now that Phillip-Morris is "Altria" or whatever, I can't go and start "Altria Lumber Concern" even though lumber isn't related to their cancer creation service.

      But, since neither party made up the word "Fedora", you may have a point. However, the "field" is generally recognized to be rather broad, for example, "software". If some company decided to call its telephony software suite "Nero Burning ROM", Ahead could still stop them even though telephony and CD recording are ostensibly different fields.

      --
      All's true that is mistrusted
    3. Re:Heavens to murgatroid!!! by nodwick · · Score: 4, Informative
      Or maybe they need to realize that it's okay to have a Fedora Linux project and a Fedora (something else) project.
      Actually, as I read the article, U Virginia and Cornell are objecting precisely because Red Hat is asserting that it's not ok to have a Fedora Linux and a Fedora [other software] project. From the article:
      Red Hat's assertion of trademark includes restrictive guidelines on the use of the Fedora name.
      This is understandably a concern for the "other" Fedora if Red Hat is going to make them change their name. If you check RH's Trademark Info page, they do seem to have some cause for concern that RH is going to clamp down on them:
      Except as provided herein, you may not use "Fedora" or any confusingly similar mark as a trademark for your product, or use "Fedora" in any other manner that might cause confusion in the marketplace, including in advertising, on auction sites, or on software or hardware. Any party wishing to use the Fedora(TM) mark may do so as long as they meet two conditions:

      (1) They must only use the Fedora(TM) mark in association with the original Fedora(TM) code found on the Fedora Project website (see http://fedora.redhat.com/) without modification;

      (2) If they charge a fee for the CD-ROM or other media on which they deliver the Fedora(TM) code, they warranty the media on which the Fedora(TM) code is delivered, thus ensuring that the recipient receives a usable copy.

      Emphasis added is mine. The wording of the legalese seems to imply that the next step for Red Hat is to clamp down on anyone else trying to publicize other software (or even non-software products) also named Fedora, even if it isn't related to Linux. Whether that's legally defensible is arguable, but the intent to try appears to be there.
    4. Re:Heavens to murgatroid!!! by jackbox · · Score: 5, Funny

      Trademarks are only valid for a limited set of things - you can't TM a word and claim domain over all uses of it.

      That's right. Surely, anyone who successfully gained Access to trademark rights on common terms would have quite a Project ahead of them! They would need lawyers that Excel at trademark law to defend them. I doubt that any litigator could ever have the last Word on this issue; the Outlook would not be good. But a savvy legal Explorer could open a lot of Windows into to what goes on behind such strategies.

  3. Name change by penguinrenegade · · Score: 3, Funny

    Then apparently Fedora needs to change hats...

  4. how about the hat.... by caffeinex36 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    seems www.fedora.info is using a hat that looks similar to redhats doesnt it? im sure everyone will throw stones for a while...till the glass house falls down.

    1. Re:how about the hat.... by Tenareth · · Score: 5, Informative


      A Trademark needs to be exact, It's a Fedora (Generic) and it's not red, and it's not pointing the right direction.

      Just ask Rob about the IBM Logo, IBM said that since it wasn't the proper ratio it wasn't a valid Logo. In an old job we got to co-brand with IBM, and the dimensions were defined down to the width of the spaces and blue in the lettering.

      --
      This sig is the express property of someone.
  5. Gentoo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Kind of like http://freshmeat.net/projects/gentoo/ and http://www.gentoo.org.

    1. Re:Gentoo by Neon+Spiral+Injector · · Score: 4, Informative

      From the bottom of the (file manager) project's home page:

      Gentoo the Linux distribution has nothing to do with gentoo the file manager, except the latter runs on the former. I actually used the name first of the two, way back in September 1998. I've been in touch with the Gentoo folks, and we're cool.

  6. Alternate Names by Vengie · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Blue BabyBonnet Linux
    Raspberry Beret Linux
    I mean really. The attempt at "fedora" from "red hat" was cute.....but it isn't exactly necessary.....
    Pink Sunglasses Linux.....
    Green Visor Linux
    fedora is a "cute" inside joke that most people won't even get. [how many PHB's or joe-sixpacks or even college students do you really expect know what the hell a Fedora is anyway]
    -b

    --
    When in doubt, parenthesize. At the very least it will let some poor schmuck bounce on the % key in vi. (Larry Wall)
  7. In Related News... by Lazarus_Bitmap · · Score: 4, Funny

    Matt Drudge has issued an objection, as he has a program that dates back to '98; a content management tool that auto-publishes sexual innuendo the second it is uttered by obscure, unnamed sources.

    --
    -Laz .:change is inevitable -- growth is optional:.
  8. Re:Maybe Just Qualify the Name by JPelorat · · Score: 4, Funny

    Or they could call it Fez

    --
    Hokey statistics and ancient misconceptions are no match for a good thought in your head, kid!
  9. Pretty boneheaded move on Red Hat's part by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    A simple Google search on "Fedora" shows the project as the third result (behind two Fedora Linux results.) If you were going to name your project something, don't you think you'd at least take the ten seconds it takes to do a Google search and make sure you're not taking an already-used name? Fedora (Flexible Extensible Digital Object Repository Architecture) is even trademarked, for crying out loud.

    Somebody at Red Hat needs their ass kicked over this, methinks.

    1. Re:Pretty boneheaded move on Red Hat's part by VisorGuy · · Score: 5, Interesting

      The last entry on the way back machine doesn't show that TM on the FEDORA Project site.

      However, it does appear that they have been using the Fedora name longer than the original Fedora Linux Project, but not longer than Red Hat has been associated with the Fedora.

      --
      This user account is inactive account replaced by the PDA
    2. Re:Pretty boneheaded move on Red Hat's part by forevermore · · Score: 3, Informative
      Fedora (Flexible Extensible Digital Object Repository Architecture) is even trademarked

      Merely adding the ™ symbol after your name doesn't really say more than "I use this name, I call it mine, and I may be in the process of registering it." Unless you have substantial documentation to back it up (which the universities do claim to have), it isn't really legally binding until you register it with the government and that little ™ turns into a nice ®. However, registering a trademark is expensive, and usually takes a long time, so most people just stick with the ™ if they have enough documentation to support the claim.

      --
      Do you really need reason for beer? Wingman Brewers
  10. What took them so long? by brundlefly · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I have no dispute with the university's prior claim.

    But I have to wonder if they have been living under a rock... what took them so long to get vocal about this? RH's Fedora has been on the public radar for a long, long time now.

  11. Firebird! by silicongodcom · · Score: 5, Funny

    Just call it Firebird!

  12. New Fedora Name Poll by gekkotron · · Score: 5, Funny

    1. Bowler
    2. Beanie
    3. Tinfoil
    4. Fez
    5. Toque
    6. Skullcap
    7. Helmet
    8. Cowboy Neal's AssHat

  13. Re:Trademarks... by javatips · · Score: 4, Informative

    You can trademark common english words if the product/service the trademark will be put on is not related to the meaning of the word.

    I can trademark "Truck" for some software product but not for a vehicule.

  14. USPTO Link by Gunfighter · · Score: 5, Informative

    Click here to view the status of Red Hat's Trademark filing.

    --
    -- Stu

    /. ID under 2,000. I feel old now.
  15. fedora.info lies by oldstrat · · Score: 5, Informative


    A search at the US patent and trademark office lists 4 registered trademarks with the word fedora in them.

    . 73467748 Feb 28 1984 Fedora Cafe and Bar
    . 78296509 Sept 5 2003 Red Hat
    . 78268874 June 30 2003 cosmetics
    . 78312293 Oct 10 2003 Chemical Data Software

    The fedora.info site of the complaining fedora project is using a tm symbol next to thier name on the site, but they have not registered it with the US trademark office.

    It is not exclusively trademarked for software by fedora.info.
    This could be forgiven of a small independent group, but this group is a co sponsored project, part of Cornell University and University of Virginia both of which I am sure have strict policies about things like Trademark, copyright and patents. And both have the legal staff to handle it.

    Sorry but they won't get any sympathy from me, and no support from the law.

    Trademark is not like copyright law, you must register to get exclusive control for a product in a market.

    1. Re:fedora.info lies by GammaTau · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The fedora.info site of the complaining fedora project is using a tm symbol next to thier name on the site, but they have not registered it with the US trademark office.

      As far as I know, there are basically two ways of getting a trademark: the first is by registering and the second is by using something commercially long enough for it to become clearly associated with a company or a product. The first kind of trademark is denoted by having an R inside a circle whereas the second is denoted with the small tm symbol.

      In other words:
      (R) = Trademark through registration
      tm = Trademark through established use

      Using the tm symbol in the press release is consistent with their position because they're saying that they have become associated with the name 'Fedora'. They can have a trademark claim to the word even when they haven't registered it.

      Disclaimer: IANAL etc.

    2. Re:fedora.info lies by Alan+Cox · · Score: 3, Interesting

      If you look at archive.org wayback machine you will also find that until after the trademark filing by Red Hat they were called "F.E.D.O.R.A." - without a tm, which is an acronym not a trademark.

      Makes you wonder which computer companies sponsor their research

  16. Fedora IS a hat by macdaddy · · Score: 4, Informative
    Fedora is a type of hat.

    fedora ( P ) Pronunciation Key (f-dor, -dr)
    n.

    A soft felt hat with a fairly low crown creased lengthwise and a brim that can be turned up or down.

    That's probably why Cornell's Fedora Project uses a hat as a logo and why Redhat chose Fedora as a project name.

  17. All the good names are taken by Kombat · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The problem is that all the best names are already taken. Some are taken by real companies selling real products, others are taken by obscure one-man-shop programmers. RedHat wanted a cool name for this new product, and realized they'd have better odds picking a fight with a ragtag bunch of students than with a real company with real resources to invest in a legal battle.

    I think they're right. Seriously, all the best names are taken. If you're going to create a new product, the best you can hope for is that whoever has already created a product with that name didn't really do much with it, and will be willing to sell you the name (or not put up a fight when you take it anyway).

    --
    Like woodworking? Build your own picture frames.
  18. Fedora prior art? by Quixadhal · · Score: 3, Funny

    Indiana Jones is reportedly suing Red Hat, Inc. for casting his trademark headgear in a bad light. Doctor Jones's lawyer says that the term "Red Hat" could also be subject to trademark, as one of Indy's seldom worn spring outfits featured a red fedora.

    In other news, Darl McBride was seen running amuck in the downtown area, stealing any hats he could get his hands on while screaming 'They're ALL MINE! MINE!!!'